It is 4. 30 in the morning and you are up to date with the headlines. Time now for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk from cape town. The cape is the stronghold of south africas main opposition party, the Democratic Alliance, the da. And when it elected its first black leaderfive years ago, many believed it was the start of a new era. My guest is Mmusi Maimane, and this is his first interview to an International Broadcaster since he stepped down as Democratic Alliance leader in october. What does his resignation tell us about race and politics in south africa today . Mmusi maimane in cape town, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much for having me. Why did you step down as leader of the Democratic Alliance in october . Well, i thought, at that point, that the da and i did not share a common vision. At first, i pursued the vision of a nonracial south africa, i believe the da needed to govern in more places, that the da needed to grow in the majority of South Africans who are black, and there were a few people inside the da who thought it would be important for them to create an organisation that served a particular race, and i felt that at that time, there were divisions of which direction we should take and that was important for me not to serve in that kind of context. When you became leader in 2015, may, you said you wanted to take the race out of South African politics, so are you basically saying now that you failed to do that . No, i think it was important. When i took over as leader of the da in 2015, i made it very clear, i said, if you dont see that im black, you dont see me. I became very deliberate about saying to him actually, the da needed to be an organisation for all races. That, in fact, the only way to deal with race in south africa is when you can bring black people and white people to Work Together, and then. But you failed to do that. No. You did. Let me just tell you what a well known commentator, khaya dlanga, respected here in south africa said, unfortunately, many people see Mmusi Maimane as something as a puppet, that there are powers behind the operation that are not black. So, basically, you arejust a symbol, and there were the white members of the da pulling the strings. Fundamentally not true. I fought hard that we govern in johannesburg. And when you think about governing injohannesburg, that requires that actually black people, white people, people voted for the da, and they are working together. I produce the most diverse caucus of the Democratic Alliance of those different races. We fought hard for that. The only failure that i would look at, when you pursue non racialism, it doesnt always get rewarded at the polls, and so when we lost 1. 5 of the vote in the National Elections in 2019, there were few people who started to attack this idea of non racialism. It is what is the future of south africa, and if we start to regress away from that, south africa will become even further polarised. Let me just explain why commentators like that do say that you were, sorry to put it crudely, a puppet on a string, you have your predecessor as leader of the Democratic Alliance, the da, she was in power from 2007 2015, she is a veteran South African politician, a former mayor of cape town here, premier of the western cape, you name it, and shes now been appointed as the chair of the federal council of the da. She really was calling the shots, wasnt she, in the da . Absolutely not. When i took on the da, you will remember, that in my tenure, Herman Mashaba and i, in fact, had an open confrontation, where i said to her, some of the statements that she was making or not the things that she could say. She didnt resign though as premier for the western cape, when you said that to her. She said, for example, that south africas legacy had made a positive contribution, which you objected to. I objected strongly, and, actually, insisted that she didnt serve in the council in the federal executive, and she agreed to that, if you will understand it. But she didnt resign as premier of western cape. I didnt ask her to resign from that, i asked her to resign from all the structures of the da, that is the federal executive and the federal council. When she then got elected, it then became very clear that, of course, both of us in that context could not pursue the same vision, because i was pursuing a vision that is particularly different to hers. So im very comfortable, i think that that statement suggests. But thats the point im making, that she is now, an analyst, he says, the return of helen into one of the partys top three leadership posts was essentially confirmation that Mmusi Maimanes own colleagues within the federal council had lost faith in his leadership. Completely wrong. Shes in a position of power, you are out to. Completely not. It was a symbolic response to what happened in the elections in 2019. It had nothing to do. And the projects that i pursued, you will remember, that in fact, we were looking at governments injohannesburg, we were looking at the complexities of that. Im comfortable that it wasnt even a vote of no confidence against my own leadership, it was in fact, the position that she plays is not one of leader, its one of chairman of the party. And, frankly, at my own behest, had i stayed in the party, i wouldve continued to pursue the vision that i was. What i wasnt willing to do is to force south africa into this very debate that we are having, where people say, well, because there are white people in the party, they must be the ones that are in charge and not a black South African in place. You said in your resignation speech in october that there has been, for several months, a consistent and co ordinated attempt to undermine my leadership, and ensure that either this project failed or i failed. You said this extended to the Smear Campaign that was run on the front pages of an afrikaans weekly paper in attempt to destroy my name and my integrity. Completely. What kind of smears are we talking about . It happens in a Political Party where sometimes, some of the institutions that are happening within the da actually didnt do the job they were supposed to do. So one of my great challenges that i had, a few people inside the da started to leak false information about me, about my own leadership, started to in fact, publicly, run these campaigns, because all they wanted it was a da that represents a particular race, a minority race. And because they knew themselves that had they gone to a das congress, they wouldnt be able to master the numbers they started to attack me personally. What kind of things did they say that really upset you . Suddenly, they started to raise questions about my own home, which were not true. They started to raise issues about the vehicle i was driving, which were not true, and so all of this, to sort of create a sort of sense of doubt was the sort of lack of moral fortitude that those people demonstrate that ultimately led to a point where i felt that the environment within which we were working was toxic, it was not right. Was toxic and not right. Was it basically racism towards you . I felt that some elements of it were, because there were some elements that sought to say, because these were a group of South Africans who thought that, for them, its important for the da to go backwards rather than go forwards, and they are willing to pay any price to do that. And so, i put it to you again, that, really, your four years of stewardship with the Democratic Alliance have failed, because a well known writer here in south africa says i have no doubt that now that Mmusi Maimane has gone, we will see an exodus of black leaders and members who will leave the Democratic Alliance party. Thats not a failure of a project. But it will go back to being predominantly white again. Ultimately. It still is, to be fair. You may have increased the vote of black supporters, but its still predominantly nonblack. The tenure i had as a da, to me, was the direction that south africa needs to move on and i fought hard for that. Thats why we could govern in more places, why we could move out of the western cape and to be a party that was central to South African politics. Thats come to me, is a success of a project. Now, when you look at the elections of 2019, there was also an exodus of a number of White South Africans who went back to a fairly minority white party. Now you never want to lose votes, but ultimately come at the end of the day, when you focus on the future of an organisation, youve got to bring everybody together. So, for me at this point of time, it indicates there hunger for a nonracial movement in south africa. So ijust want to make it clear here that you, can i basically paraphrase what you have been saying, is you have left the Democratic Alliance and stood down as leader, because it was basically too white and there were strong and powerful elements within it that made your life too difficult as a black South African, is that essentially it . In that speech that is that when i resigned as they do not believe that the da is the best vehicle suited to advance my vision. Because . Because i fundamentally believe that there are some within the da that i believe are to be a minority front. And they were so powerful that you felt you had no choice but to step down . It wasnt a fight worth having. I mean, having said that, i want to be clear, that not everybody in the da was racist. There were a few number of people who wanted to debate with us this vision of non racialism, they wanted to deny the history of south africa, they wanted us to not focus on addressing historical injustices, they equally so were not committed in truth to a project of building everybody together. And thats became a consistent point of friction all the way throughout my leadership tenure, and as a black South African, i could not in my own self, betray the fact that i felt it was important to build a one south africa but you must address those injustices. It wasnt a comfortable position for you to be in, you brought up the situation, the election in may of 2019, and under youre the party had lost votes for the first time in its history. You lost five seats in the national assembly. You used to be the official opposition in south africas biggest province, as you said to me, lost votes to the Economic Freedom fighters, the Economic Freedom fighters on the left, and also the freedom front plus afrikaans party. It didnt do well. No. Firstly, let me clarify that when we went on to govern injohannesburg, the da had never seen growth to that level. Frankly, there were more black South Africans that were voting for the da than its ever had. So, a loss of five seats, lets place it in context in a global situation, where populists have risen on either end, where elements of nationalism are starting to come on board, and people are in a climate of fear with Economic Conditions in south africa, such that people are losing theirjobs, there is fear. It was going to be natural that parties who sit in the centre, that includes the da and the anc were going to suffer losses, so Cyril Ramaphosa lost more votes than i ever did under the anc leadership, in fact, it was the biggest drop they had ever seen. Precisely, you have shouldve benefited from that drop to do well. The benefit was we were fighting against elements of populism, racial divisions, and i think im actually, to have stood at the level that we did some of the losses were only five seats, is actually come in my view, very important stake in the ground for the future of the da. I consider it, actually, the right foundation for the da to be able to go forward. After the election, you commissioned a commission because you wanted to explore why the da had performed so badly, and this is what the report found. Its worth quoting, its a bit long, the overwhelming view of those who made submissions or with whom we have discussions is that the party leader, you, Mmusi Maimane, while immensely talented, committed to the cause, hard working, widely liked, can be indecisive inconsistent, and conflict averse. Its our carefully considered review that the most important factor in shaping the da circumstances is a failure of effective leadership. They put the blame at your door. I argued strongly that i disagreed with that report. Because you didnt like the result . No, the report had a diagnosis that was seeking problems. The diagnosis was this, they wanted to go back to the dp, if you like, to regress the organisation. A precursor of the Democratic Alliance , as it were. Correct. Just because you disagree with the direction does not make it an indecision, it just means you disagree. They disagree but the fact that the rest of the report makes it quite clear they didnt want us to govern in johannesburg in partnership with the coalition of South Africans of different parties, they didnt want us, they wanted us to remain in the western cape, and because you disagree does not make it in decision, itjust means that its not the decision you wouldve taken. So you dont thank you were basically out of your depth, as leader of the Democratic Alliance, this party that has been the official opposition in south africa since the 1960s. The party, i mean. Leadership is a hard job, you will make mistakes, im not saying my record was perfect. It cant be. Leaders make mistakes. You learn from your mistakes and you build. I believe in the project i was working towards, and i certainly believe that the da was heading in the right direction, and its indicated even more so since my departure that the da is out of government, the da is regressing backwards and more public representatives can other different sectors are starting to want to find other places. Which to me is a tragedy, because ultimately, we want to have a south africa that works for all the people. If the da had failed to become the vehicle, it is important to set up another vehicle. You say that you now want to move on. Correct. And you have set up this movement for one south africa, not a Political Party yet, and there are already those of you who are ahead of the game, Julius Malema, for example, the Economic Freedom fighter set up this party a few years ago, won 11 in the elections in may of 2019, they are already parties occupying the space that you want to occupy. The eff is just another version of the anc. Julius malema would vigorously reject that. He can reject that, but. Look how they disrupted Cyril Ramaphosas state of the union address. On what basis . Because all they wanted to argue was about personal issues of all party matters. It wasnt about the ideological direction of this country, South Africans are starved for an alternative. If the eff is not an alternative, its basically a socialist leftist organisation, which is fundamentally just a militant version of the anc. But hes tapping into a mood that is popular with many particularly young South Africans, for example, the student protests about fees must fall in 2015, he. They are not eff orchestrated. No, they arent, but he has captured the mood there, whereas you tried in october of 2015 to go to the university in cape town to show your solidarity with the students, what happened, there were boos and chants, you were told to leave. This was a bunch of people from one of the unions in the university. They were arguing a different case. I want to reiterate what the starvation in south africa is for a vision of a nonracial south africa, which the eff has not and the anc has long forgotten that view, its a view that says there needs to be a social market system that allows and inclusive economy, its a view that says there must be allows an inclusive economy, its a view that says there must be an accountable government, both the anc of the eff are facing serious allegations of corruption against them, which they must answer for. It requires a future focused orientation. South africans are asking and calling out for a different alternative. The Biggest Party that grew in the elections in 2019 was South Africans who didnt turn out to vote. 18 million did not turn out to vote. How are you going to appeal to them when were not sure what your platform or your vision is . The platform is to fight in a movement that says, we need to build South Africans who can coalesce together around the values im articulating, nonracialfuture, an inclusive economy, an accountable government, a future focus, and ultimately to be able to say they must be just as for the things that happen in the past in this country. We build on those values and bring society into silent voices in this country. I believe that will create an audience that is able to disrupt the current institutional politics that we are seeing. Easy to say, i have this vision, but when you look at the nitty gritty of policies, it is quite hard to implement this vision, so, for example, lets take one eye catching policy of the anc, the black Economic Empowerment programme. This is all about trying to address the injustices economically of apartheid, and the idea is to encourage black Economic Empowerment through ownership, and you say that you are opposed to targets for black ownership, yet here you are saying, i think there should be an inclusive economy for all black South Africans. So make it clear, are you for black Economic Empowerment are not . Im for an inclusive economy. Im for an economy that recognises that black South Africans are left out, that the face of poverty is still black from a largely young, and therefore, but that doesnt nullify the fact that weight South Africans have a role. Bbbee has simply benefited the elite in this country, south africas economic infrastructure actually puts 49 of citizens as the underclass, the poor, who are depending on welfare. So if we are going to address that, bbbeee have failed willfully to that. You must oppose that policy. What i want to opposed up my equipment so you are opposed to that programme . Thats not being opposed to black inclusion into the economy. But you just said also that doesnt mean excluding the role of White South Africans. Of course, they play a role of the social injustices. They are 9 of south africas population, about 55 million. They make up of 70 High Net Worth individuals. Correct. Its blatantly obvious they are playing a key part in the economy. And they must contribute to building inclusion. Thats the point and continue to be the beneficiaries of inequalities in the economy . Let me propose a different model. Should they continue to be beneficiaries of this inequality in the economy that 9 account for 70 . They must continue to address the injustices of the past. They must continue to do that. In my proposal is this, lets take one industry, the Insurance Industry in this country. Its only got four Big Companies that still control the insurance company. Yes, i agree, the majority of them are white, but isnt it about time that rather than simply saying lets talk about bbbee, we establish a jobs and justice fund will ultimately find new entrants, with the majority of which are black, of course, to set up more insurance companies. All right, so another ill that you said affecting the anc, afflicting the anc which, by and large, people except corruption. Look, ramaphosa has only been in power for two years as president , sure, he was Vice President under zuma, but he himself is talked about the extensive looting by the state to the tune of about 38 billion under the presidency ofjacob zuma. You have to give him time to try to tackle that kind of corruption . How much time . He will never do it. Hes only been in power for two years. Well frankly, he knows very clearly he will not arrest any members of his own party. We will be having exactly the same conversation five years to come. If you want to eradicate corruption, you have to eradicate the anc. Hes appointed the Zondo Commission to look at the allegations of state capture. Which will. He has appointed a highly respected former minister of finance as minister of public enterprises, and also his kind of Anti Corruption tsar, so hes taken the right steps, you cantjust go and arrest people willy nilly, the director of Public Prosecutions says there will be high profile arrests. Its his colleagues who are sitting in parliament with him who key benefactors of state capture. He, himself, has allowed them to continue to function in parliament. This is a very crucial role that the president has. His hands are tied come as you well know, by the pro zuma factions in the anc, supporters of Cyril Ramaphosa issued a statement recently this year saying, elements engaged in the long term project of state capture regard the ramaphosa presidency is necessary before they are once more in power. A very powerful statements, he opposes the anc, so should the rest of south africa be an audience to ancs politics while people arent doing theirjobs. You have to got to give him time to try to clean up south africa. I completely disagree. If you want to fight corruption, why dont you think about other mechanisms to make it up by today introduce some form of Blockchain Technology that would allow us to move away from corruption. He would have been today able to nail down his cabinet so its much more effective, but hes not doing any of those, because Cyril Ramaphosa is in anc president and will continue to drive in and see agenda. All right, so we do go from here, Mmusi Maimane . The people want to know are you going to set up new Political Party thats going to contest the elections in 2024 . Are you just going to content to have this movement . No. We believe the movement will eventually contest for elections, but here is the first. Nationwide elections in 2024 . Will you stand in 2024 elections . The next challenge is we have to bring electoral reform, because i introduce that because its important that this movement is clear. We want to fight to change the way people are elected in this country. If you just keep a one party state, you end up with state capture. We want to be able to stand in the elections with the view that these are directly elected people in the community. Its not a one party state. The anc win the elections fair and square wear, you will not expect them to say we have won the election, but we dont want to be a one party state, we are going stand down. Its one Party Dominance and im simply saying. Yes, because. Other parties cannot appeal to the black majority vote. At this point in time, the liberation movements all end up with the same vision of capturing the state. It was in the ancs documents that focused on saying we will go out and capture the elements of the state. Thats not my issue. Another party, briefly, finally, 48 Political Parties already in south africa, the opposition is splintered, you have Julius Malema and the Economic Freedom fighters, as we said, so for example, would you go into alliance with the former mayor ofjohannesburg, who also left the Democratic Alliance like you . Lets build a movement of South Africans that will come together, lets bring a number of political entities, Civil Society to Work Together to be able to wrestle this big monolithic animal called the anc, lets agree on values, which are non racialism, future focus, that we talk about issues of climate and technology, that ultimately we bring justice, we reform the electoral act so people are elected directly, the way that people and when we do that, ultimately, its notjust addition of another party, but building a movement of South Africans that can bring change to this country. And thats going to happen. And work with, for example, Julius Malema, who has said come and have a chat with me over whiskey, dont be discouraged, my big brother, you are a good human being, he said. If mr malema is willing to build a state ofjustice in this country, jobs and focus on the future of this country, i will work with him, but im not going to work with people who want to advance any other view outside of that. So we are building this movement for South Africans to go together. Would he be the kingmaker and you the king . Laughs. Lets cross that bridge when we get to it. My focus now is building this movement of all South Africans, and people are responding positively. Because the silent vote in this country are those that are not voting. The silent voice are the Civil Society, the citizens who are excluded from this economy. This Movement Must be able to say, lets work with those people, fight for an inclusive economy, build a nonracialfuture, and i believe that parties from different sectors will come together. If i was an anc strategist, i would start more parties. I want to bring people together so we build one future for south africa. Mmusi maimane, thank you very much indeed for coming onto hardtalk. Great to see you. Thank you. Hello. I know theres still significant flooding around but isnt it nice to get away from februarys relentless grey and of course wet and something brighter, bluer in the skies, many of us did during monday. There were still some big showers around, no one is suggesting this week is dry, but there is some texture in the sky for the time being. Things are a bit quieter than they have been and well get a bit of sunshine again in the day ahead but there will also be some showers around. The big picture showing a few disturbances moving around the uk with showers on tuesday but were eyeing up another area of low pressure in the atlantic and this looks like bringing another spell of rain to many of us during wednesday into thursday, as well see in a moment. Tuesdays start, cold, frosty for some of us, icy patches where we have had a few showers. One area of showers clearing away from north east england, eastern Scotland First thing and another pulling away from Northern Ireland and wales during the morning but then this has to feed around scotland through england. A shower could be heavy and wintry on hills, some hail possible too. Behind it, the sun comes back and a lot of it for Northern Ireland in the afternoon and increasingly so for wales and western parts of england. Some of us have temperatures in double figures and most of us will not. It is breezy, quite blustery out there with some of the showers, but its nowhere near as windy as its been. And actually, with mainly light winds and clear skies on tuesday night, that means therell be a widespread frost around but then look at this cloud and some rain heading in towards south west england, south west wales. The temperature not going down too far, and actually recovering later in the night. That rain is from that area of low pressure i showed you. Some uncertainty as to how far north it will get on wednesday, but every new forecast u nfortu nately takes it further north, so that does mean a spell of rain heading through much of england and wales towards Northern Ireland, perhaps even southern scotland as well. Not necessarilyjust rain. Some hill snow more especially into the pennines for a time, as overnight and into thursday the outbreaks of rain continue through parts of england and wales and then on thursday will slowly clear from the east and south east of england. Behind that, yes, it will be turning drier on thursday. Will get a bit brighter too. Temperatures pretty much where they are going to be throughout the week. But then theres another area of wet weather aiming at us for friday. This weather front has to move through and then low pressure looks to be coming in for the weekend. So what does that mean over the weekend . It means therell be another spell of rain heading our way, unfortunately. And the winds will start to pick up as well. Although with that, the temperatures will recover a few degrees but it does mean not as much of that sunshine. Briefing, with me, sally bundock. The top stories the world is now in uncharted territory, say health chiefs, as the number of deaths from coronavirus passed 3000. Benjamin netanyahu claims victory over his main rival in israels third election in a year, but can he finally form a government . With backing from Pete Buttigieg and amy klobuchar, welljoe bidens momentum continue, as democrats raced to a super tuesday showdown. Race. And tweet, but dont travel. 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