Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. President Emmanuel Macrons bold promise to break the political mould in france has collided with reality. His reform plans, from tax to pensions, have stirred a backlash against what protestors call his neoliberal elitism. As his internal problems have mounted, so too have doubts about his ability to be the eus visionary leader. Well, my guest today is gabriel attal, minister for youth and a rising star in the president s party. Why has the macron magic worn off so quickly . Gabriel attal, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Whats gone wrong . Halfway through his term, president macron seems to have lost the faith of the french public. No, i dont think so. President macron was elected in a very tormented situation. You had almost 40 of the voters who voted for extremist parties. He was elected in this situation, and we always knew it would be hard, and we always knew it would be difficult to transform the country and to set up the reforms we were elected to do. So, right now we. You talk of a tormented country back then at the time of his election, what about now . The country looks even more polarised, divided, tormented. I wouldnt say that. I would say that what weve seen in france, for instance, with the Yellow Vest Movement is the burst of the cover of the pressure cannon that had been bubbling up for 30 or a0 years. You know, in 1995, president Jacques Chirac campaigned for the president ial election, talking about the risk of social divide or the breakup of French Society. The problems in French Society we are seeing right now actually existed for a long time, and what we are trying to do, and it is difficult, is to set up some responses to these problems. The main response for president macron, for the government, has worked. You are fantastically loyal. Youve been a spokesman for the government now, youre in a ministerial position as ministerfor youth, you said some time ago, i believe in macron, i have real loyalty for him because im absolutely convinced by the relevance of his project. I understand where youre coming from, but surely even you have to access when you see a recent poll saying virtually 70 of the french people think that macron will stand no chance of getting re elected, hes not succeeding, he is failing. I reminded you the context of his election. I know, but now were more than halfway through his term and people are judging him on his record now. We knew it wouldnt be easy to convince everyone in only two years, its been two years, so were working very hard to convince. I believe what were seeing is the first of this policy is are coming. The Unemployment Rate hasnt been this low since ten years. The Foreign Investments in france havent been that high since ten years. So we begin to the results, and now we need people to feel the results throughout their lives, we need them to find jobs, we need them to have a job which helps them to live properly, to have high value of theirjob. Thats what we are working on. You make a valid point the economy under macron hasnt done badly. Hasnt been great at it hasnt done too badly in relative terms in europe. Better than last years. Therefore one has to look for the reasons for his deep unpopularity, historic levels of unpopularity today, one has to look at other areas. One has to look at his style, at the complete failure of mr macron, and dare i say it politicians like you, to connect with french people far beyond paris, far beyond the metropolitan centres. People who feel you do not care about them and do not listen to their voices. I wouldnt say that. I think politics had a failure of connecting with these people, and what we saw again with the yellow vest people in certain areas of france feeling abandoned for 10, 20, 30 years because Public Services had gone, because work had gone, because life had gone from these areas. And what we are trying to do, and its very hard but i believe we are succeeding in it, is to put life and put work back to these areas and to make everyone feel in france that they are part of the same project. And it is difficult. If i may, minister, how on earth are you going to convince the french people in the small towns, in the villages, that you understand their problems . You, like mr macron himself, are the product of a very particular french culture and background. You come from the poshest parts of paris, you go to the elite schools like sciences po. You do not reflect the lives of most french people, and that is what many french see as the problem with the macron political project it doesnt reflect them and their france. First of all, we are a team. When i was elected a member of parliament two years ago, i was in the parliament with the director of a school, with a pilot, with a fireman. When you look at everyone in the parliament or in the government around Emmanuel Macron in this majority, you see people from very different social and geographic backgrounds, and that i think is a force for us. And the second part is you can be from a privileged background and be caring for people who didnt have the same chance as you had. And, for me, it was actually the fuel that made me want to volunteer and to commit in politics to make everyone have the same chance. Had you paused for thought when one minister, a former socialist whojoined en marche because he believed in macron, im thinking of mr gerard collomb, when he said quitting the government in a very dramatic move, he said in october, 2018 there was a fundamental problem, a lack of humility in mr macrons team. He said the danger was macron was becoming isolated, he doesnt take advice. Very few of us, he said, can still talk to him. No, i dont agree with that. What i agree with is may be for the first two years we gave the image of knowing everything on how to. Knowing better than. On how to transform the country and fix the country without needing the help of others. I think we said that one year ago after the Yellow Vest Movement and the great debate, and the president even said it. Maybe we went to quick, maybe we went to far and may be we should have done what we have done with the great debate before. Ok, so in terms of specific mistakes, im mindful you actually began your political life as an adviser to a socialist minister. I suppose you were a socialist at the time, you made the move to en marche did it stick in your throat that mr macron, from the very beginning, made a top priority of cutting taxes or big corporations and the biggest, richest french people because for you, presumably, as a former socialist, that was a mistake . I was in the socialist party but id been waiting for a few years for someone like Emmanuel Macron to propose this programme. But the very guy who advised macron on his economic strategy, jean pisani ferry, he concluded as he broke with macron, he said, macron has failed to respond to the demand for fairness. His first moves, cutting wealth and Capital Gains tax taxes earned him the title of president of the rich and as a result, says mr ferry, a former ally of mr macron, as a result, he says, the desire for insurrection has taken root in france. Every reform we made and every reform we passed in the last two years was the reforms that were announced in Emmanuel Macrons programme that his allies built with him. Theres not any reform we are doing right now that we passed that wasnt in the programme which i committed to and which i decided to support. I think its easy to say cutting taxes is from the right and huge taxes is from the left. I disagree with that. Its a question of who you cut the taxes for and the priorities you show, and the priority seems to have been to help the rich and the big corporations. Why did we decide to lower taxes . We decided to lower taxes in order to help companies and to help people to invest in order to create jobs and opportunities for everyone. What we are seeing right now is the Unemployment Rate hasnt been that low for ten to 15 years. I talk about your loyalty, and i think youre exhibiting it here, but youre a party guy, youre a very loyal party guy. Can you see there are dozens of en marche mps quitting the party . Youve gone from 314 in the National Assembly to around 300, and youre still going in the wrong direction. You know we have 314 mps elected, and i was one of them. I know. And the specificity of this group is almost all of the mps were committing in politics for the first time, the first time. We hadnt been elected before. And people were coming from everywhere in the country, from various beliefs, and at the end it is normal that some of them. Well, realised that maybe they made a mistake, maybe they expected Something Else. With all due respect, what theyre saying when they leave, like frederique tuffnell, she is saying she has to get out because shes so frustrated with the way the governments mishandling, in her view, the reform of the Pension System and its failure to really address environmental issues. Shes not leaving because he doesnt like politics, shes leaving because shes decided she doesnt like mr macron. And what do the 300 other mps saying while they are helping us and supporting the pension reform . They are supporting it because it was in our programme and it was the core of our project. Why do we do this pension reform . We do it because. I tell you what, the french people dont understand your pension reform. We are speaking with them every day. Clearly its not working. Polls suggest french people agree there is a need for pension reform but in the months and months that mr macron and people like you have been trying to explain this reform, the french people clearly dont buy it. And when you look at the different items of the reform, which are tested in the polls, what do you see . When we say, should we cancel and delete the specific regimes, as we call it, which means if youre a bus driver in paris, you can retire five years before a bus driver in lyon. When we ask in the polls, do you agree with the idea of a unique regime which is more equalfor everyone . They say 80 yes. When you ask them, should we get a minimum pension of 1,000 euros to all the farmers or the workers who today have a pension lower than 1000 euros . They say 80 yes. When you look at the items of reform in the polls, they are supported. But youre still not winning the argument because, if you look at the polls, the french people on the whole, while they accept they need reform, they dont like these reforms and you know more than me, a whole history of french president s, one can think of president s in the last generation or two, chirac to sarkozy, who have tried this fundamental reform and they have been fundamentally destroyed by it and it will happen to mr macron too. Ill tell you its always difficult to reform the social model in france and specifically to pensions because retirement is something everyone projects himself into, and it can be frightening for people. Again, when you look at the different items of reform, people are supporting these in the polls. Youre clearly an optimist. Let me ask you Something Else related to all of the demonstrations, the protest that weve seen from the gilets jaunes, which of course began with the fuel tax protests and now the protests over the pensions. How do you feel when you see French Security forces opening fire with rubber bullets, the kind of rubber bullets which are banned in many other european countries. They use grenades, they use all sorts of weaponry that have left hundreds of french protesters badly injured. How do you feel about that . What we saw during these protests is a new form of violence, a newform. You mean by the police . A new form of violence by the protesters, some of the protesters, not all of them, but, you know, bad blokes coming sometimes from all over europe to protest with a new form of violence. You saw what happened to the arc de triomphe. So when macron called the protesters thugs, you entirely agree with him . No, i dont think he called them thugs. He did, he used the french word which. Among the protesters. I dont generalise everything, i dont think all the protesters want to use violence, want to hurt and injure people, but some of them do. And so you need to respond to that. Ijust wonder if you are now on this programme ready to apologise for the fact that 315 people at least, and these are figures that are a few months old. 315 people injured in the head, some with fractured skulls and jaws, 25 protesters lost an eye, five have lost a hand. One woman died of injuries caused by a form of stun grenade. Will you apologise for that . Mr sackur, if you are asking me if im happy to see these scenes, evidently not, evidently not. I want in my country, people to know and to feel that they can go protest if they want to and be safe when protesting, but you know. Because ironically, youre the minister for youth. Yes. And you know whats happened to Youth Opinion of macron. He used to be quite popular amongst the youth. The latest yougov barometer poll taken this month of macron shows 18, 1 8, 18 support for macron amongst 18 34 year olds. They have seen what has happened on the front line of these demonstrations and young people are disgusted. I think you are taking a specific barometer which is not the one which is most used in france, but anyway, of course, these images have shocked some people and i understand it. 0h . Havent they shocked you . Even me, even me, i say it. I dont want people to go protesting and feel they arent safe in france to protest. But when you have people among the protesters which hide between them in order to perform some sort of violence, very hard violence, remember the scenes you saw in paris, the cars burning, the arc de triomphe completely ravaged. You need to organise things in order for them to not hurt themselves and not hurt the others. Let me ask you this. I was very struck by some comments from a centre right politician in france, xavier bertrand, who just the other day said, our country is more divided than ever. 0ur streets have been scenes of violence for 15 months. The president has not only failed to reconcile the french, hes pitted them against each other. The fabric of the country is tearing before our eyes and mr president , you are responsible for it. Hes a very senior politician, that is a stunning thing for him to say. He is. He has been ministerfor the past, i dont know, ten years or 15 years. So, maybe the criticism and the comments he makes on French Society are criticisms of his own actions, too. Well, maybe that should give all ministers, including yourself, pause for thought. When he says the fabric of French Society is tearing before our very eyes. But you know what i was telling you in the beginning of this interview, we saw the cover burst but it had been bubbling up for over 30 to a0 years. The feeling for the middle classes that globalisation is not for them, the feeling that technology is replacing jobs and they dont know if they will be a part of that, the feeling that they live side by side and maybe tomorrow they will live face to face, it hasnt started two years ago, it started 20, 30, a0 years and we are trying to respond to this and we are responding to this. But it is not easy. One idea you hand and youre going to turn it into a national, mandatory scheme is to make all young people in france sign up for this National Service. Yes. Its not going to be military but you are going to require them, it seems, judging from the trials youve already done, youre going to require them to go to camp, wear military uniform, parade and sing the National Anthem every morning. Many opposition politicians are calling this a crazy, expensive gimmick. Do you really think its going to make any difference . Yes, and we are seeing right now that it makes a difference. We started it last year with 2,000 young people and we saw the difference it makes. What is the objective . Do you think you can make patriotism mandatory . Its not only patriotism, its mixity, its social cohesion, its geographic cohesion, its the value of commitment for everyone. You know i was today in london to meet with the ncs, the National Citizens service. Because here in britain you have this ncs around the idea of social cohesion and mixity and commitment and volunteering. Its not mandatory here in britain but it would be mandatory in france. So i think many countries are facing the same challenges in society, living side by side, we need more cohesion and mixity. The idea of the National Service is to have this moment of cohesion, of mixity, with all young people. And you know its not that expensive, to respond to the criticisms. Well, opponents say will cost well over1 billion euros. But anyway. Thats1 of the budget dedicated to youth today in france. All right. 196. Well, we will see how it works. But in the meantime, lets just end with a big thought about france. Not only does mr macron have a huge, ambitious agenda for internal reform, he wanted clearly to lead an eu revival a renaissance of the European Unions power. He talked about new integration of the economy, of fiscal policy and perhaps in the long run, Security Policy with the european army. It was a big vision. It is clear his weakness at home is undermining his message right through the European Union. He is in no state to be the visionary leader for europe. Would you accept that now . I wouldnt. What im saying is that in 2017, Emmanuel Macron made a very important speech called the speech of the sorbonne. I remember it. You remember it . It was heard in many countries. It was big on ambition but the reality in the years since is that french ambition is on the rocks. Not least because the germans are deeply frustrated with mr macron. Let me quote to you the german press after a dinner between merkel and macron, last november, it was quite a famous one, after which she complained bitterly that she spent all her time gluing back together the crockery that had been broken by macrons pursuit of grandiose projects. You know, im not very interested in anonymous comments. What im interested in is facts. And what did Emmanuel Macron talk about in his sorbonne speech . A green dealfor the European Union. And what we are seeing today with the new commission . The proposalfor a new green deal for the European Union. Forgive me, the commission and the leaders of europe cant even on a budget post brexit. You cant even agree on a budget. We are working on it, is normal. We are working on a budget. Mr macron came out of the recent budget crisis meeting saying we cannot find unanimity for our ambitions, we cannot back our ambitions with the right means. And i deeply regret this, macron cannot persuade the others in europe to go in his direction. We are working on it. We need a few meetings to have success in it. But it will succeed. And what did he talk about again in the sorbonne speech . Minimum wage. Minimum income in the European Union and this is on the agenda of the European Union today. What did he speak about again . Transnational lists for the european elections and now it is on the agenda of the European Union. Well, you seem very optimistic about mr macrons ability to deliver his vision inside the eu. Theres going to be one big test coming up over the next year, that is brexit. Because its clear the french have staked out a very hard line position on the trade negotiations that must end by the end of this year with the borisjohnson government. The french seem to be saying not only if britain wants a preferential trade deal with zero tariffs, zero quotas, not only must it agree to alignment now, with the eus rules, it must agree to so called align to so called dynamic alignment in the future. Are you serious about that . Well, im not in charge of brexit in the government. I have a colleague who is in charge of it, so im quite conscious when speaking about it. But the notion the french are going to hang tough on this, even if it means there is no trade deal at all. But negotiations are always tough and its a very tough subject. We know it, everyone knows it. So it is normal that negotiations are tough. But at the end, and you said during this interview i am optimistic, it is true, i am optimistic, thats why i wanted to commit in politics and thats why i keep on working in politics, because i am optimistic. Im sure that in the end, the eu and britain will find a common interest in the deal. So is it useful when yourfriend the foreign Ministerjean Yves Le drian says that the two sides may well tear each other apart . This is what i call a tough negotiation. You can go through that, it happens, but in the end no one has an interest in things going bad. No one has this interest. So, thats why im optimistic. Gabriel attal, thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello there. Were stuck in this colder air stream through wednesday and thursday. And that means more showers, more wintry showers as well. And weve already seen snow falling to quite low levels. Now, as those showers ease of across central and eastern parts of the uk, well see temperatures dropping away. Many areas having a touch of frost, particularly cold though, again, in the north east of scotland. And given those showers, some icy conditions, especially for northern and western parts of the uk where showers keep going into the morning. In general, fewer showers, perhaps, on wednesday. A few will get across to the midlands, eastern england, and eastern scotland, but most of them, certainly during the afternoon, towards Northern Ireland and western scotland. Snow mainly over the hills. Some heavier showers and temperatures 5 9 degrees once again. Chilly in the breeze, but it wont be as windy in the south west of england. Here, during the evening though, cloud is thickening up. Weve got some rain moving in. Thats moving into the colder air. So theres the threat of snow overnight, perhaps in the brecon beacons, perhaps a centimetre or two of wet snow over the cotswolds and later into the chilterns as well. It is mostly rain. Further north, the areas colder, of course, wintery showers keep going and there will be some icy patches around as well. Now, its this area of low pressure that brings the threat of some wet snow across more southern part of england and wales. That then moves away into Continental Europe on thursday. But it could take much of the morning for that wetter weather to clear the south east of england. Once it does, were all into that cold north westerly airflow, sunnier skies, showers mainly for Northern Ireland, northern and western scotland, and the north west of england. But many places in the afternoon, away from here, i think will be dry. Still, temperatures struggling to 5 7 degrees. Another frost, actually, on thursday night. And then we look in to the atlantic to see more weather systems moving further north across the uk. Itll be a cold start, cloud will increase. Well see outbreaks of rain moving on from the south west. You can see how the wind direction changes. We pick up more of a south westerly wind. We may well find some snow over the tops of the pennines, southern uplands, towards the latter part of the day. Temperatures 6 7 degrees for most. But milder, perhaps double figures for southern parts of england and wales. But that rain may well get steadier and heavier actually on friday night, saturday morning, before pushing away. Then a few more isobars in the charts as well. And we are back into that colder, showery airstream as saturday goes on. Then remaining very unsettled over the weekend, a spell of rain and some showers, wintry over the hills, more rain on sunday and feeling chilly in the wind. This is newsday on the bbc. Im mariko 0i, in singapore. The headlines stock markets fall sharply in europe and the us overfears of the coronavirus the dow closed down 3 for the second day running. South korea struggles to contain a sharp rise in cases of the virus its leader says covid 19 must be contained. Im kasia madera, in london. Also in the programme more than a dozen people are killed in the indian capital, delhi, in the worst rioting between hindus and muslims for decades. This is a tyre market that has been set on fire. Most of the shops here were owned by muslims