Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20170419

In just a few days from now, pope francis will fly to egypt to offer his personal support to egypts Coptic Christians. Hell find a community filled with apprehension, targeted byjihadist extremists, and subject to persistent discrimination and sectarian violence. Elsewhere in the middle east, in syria and iraq, the plight of christians is even worse. My guest today is the general bishop of the Coptic Church in the uk, bishop angaelos. Do christians have any future at all in the middle east . Bishop angaelos, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Do you think there is something substantively different about the nature of the threat faced by Coptic Christians in egypt today . Because they have faced threats for many, many years. Yes. We have faced threats for centuries, and particularly over the past decades, but to have Suicide Bombers in churches is is a shift, and it looks like the mirroring of attacks in other parts of the world. And think that is why it has shocked the Egyptian Community generally, so much, christians and muslims. We havent seen this level of aggression and violence. Weve had attacks, which have been equally painful, but this does mark a very new chapter. And does that mean, i mean, since we saw the Suicide Bomb Attacks on two churches, a cathedral in alexandra, and the church in tanta, does that mean that Christian Communities have to think more carefully than they have before about Self Protection . Well, of course. We saw heightened security around churches in the lead up to easter celebrations. The community is resilient. Its strong. Its very its faithful in its worship, its forgiving. But it has to be more careful. I have said, in the past week, that what is ironic is that these churches were bombed and attacked when they were full that was only two months after the bombing in cairo. So it hasnt dissuaded people from going to church. Well, you talk about resilience, and i appreciate that as you said, those churches are still being filled, but there are signs that the egyptian cops are scared in a new way. I am thinking about what we have seen el arish, a small town in northern sinai, where the so called is group made explicit threats, saying we are going to come after you christians, and we are going to kill you. And we saw some deaths, but we saw many fleeing, leaving the community altogether. Do you believe that is an inevitable response . That that was the sensible response . Well, at the time, and that was the right response, because they felt they had been undergoing attacks for weeks leading up to that. But at that point, they realised they had no more sustainable presence there and their families were at risk. So they moved to surrounding dioceses, that absorbed them. I dont think i would use the word fear. I dont think i have heard any of our Church Leadership or Community Use the word fear, but they are concerned. And they have every right to protect their families. And they did that in this instance by leaving. But they remain targeted, because they cant all become internally displaced. An interesting phrase used by one of your colleagues, bishop makarios of minya diocese, he said we can now consider ourselves to be living through a wave of persecution. Is this an era of outright, sustained persecution, in your view . I think weve lived a history of persecution throughout our presence in egypt. And its intensified at various times. In our contemporary history, ever since the presence of the president , the former president , sadat, when islamists were given a slightly greater rein, and so they started to divide up the community in that way, christians became more visible and a bigger target for them. It is a fault line, isnt it . Im looking at the analysis of experts in islamism in egypt, like naji sharab. He says the intent, here, is to make a separation between muslims and christians, and to start a outright religious conflict in egypt. That is what the so called Islamic State is about. Can they succeed . I dont think so. They they havent so far. So whether it was after the bombing in cairo, or these bombings, egypt is very different to the rest of the middle east. There there isnt a tribal presence there. It is much more homogenous presence. In actual fact, what we see after every one of these attacks is a greater support from the greater muslim community, because they see themselves in the community as targeted as well. So it doesnt make us more marginalised. People have come out to support us. The outpouring of support and shock that we have seen, in the community, both in egypt and globally, as a result, is a tell tale sign. To that extent, you strike me as an optimist. You could flip it around, and talk about how the state, represented by president al sisi and the machinery of the state, still doesnt take what would seem to me to be basic structural measures to ensure that the long term discrimination against Coptic Christians in egypt is addressed. You know, theres the short term, the three month emergency, and the specific new law about church construction, but many copts say what is taught in schools, what about the horrible extremism that comes from some mosques, why are these things not addressed . I think we are starting to see it addressed in the past few months. I think it will take a generation. This sort of Thought Process has infiltrated the education system, the general society, so much that it needs to be replaced by something else. So the curricula have to change. The sense of citizenship, belonging to the country as a citizen, it has to change, and christians it is he themselves as part of that, and muslims living alongside them as well. I mean, ive spent time, myself, reporting for hardtalk, in upper egypt, some of the towns around aswan, minya, other towns along the nile, going all the way down south, you still find many communities where christians do feel that their security is constantly under threat. And the government knows it, but still doesnt seem to do much about it. That has been the weak point. So, at the national level, i think we have hearing very legitimate, very sincere promises from the president , from the government, from the National Security services, but when one comes down to the local level, to the villages, to the districts, where theres a sense of impunity, because crimes are crimes go unreported, sometimes, because they realise that it will not be investigated properly, there will be no reprisal, no convictions. And so therefore, there is a ratcheting up, theres an intensification of the kind of attack, and becomes more deadly every time. And the question is, at local level, municipal level, regional, the national level, how many Coptic Christians are in positions of Real Authority . Say, in thejudiciary, or in local government. You are a copt with great knowledge of your country. Can you, hand on heart, say your community is represented in the machinery of government and justice . Absolutely not. And that has been the problem over the past decades. There is most definitely a glass ceiling. And its not because there arent enough christians or they are not intelligent enough or specialised enough, because what we see is the leading the Public Sector and go to the private sector, and becoming very, very successful. And that in itself creates a greater resentment, because they are being seen as successful. So think is part of the overall solution, in the sense of citizenship, there needs to be greater representation and the understanding that christians can be productive, sincere, faithful members of a community, and be people who can work side by side with muslims. But bishop, is not one of the problems that you and other Senior Leaders in the church, including the current pope, but also pope shenouda, whom of course you worked for the past. You as a Collection Group at the top of the church have year upon year have been in the pocket of egypts rulers. And i am thinking of mubarek, and now im thinking of sisi. It obviously wasnt the case when the Muslim Brotherhood was in power, but you celebrated when sisi came back to power. And the danger is coming yet again, that youre making the same mistake you and the church are allying yourself with an authoritarian leader. Well, i dont think weve been in anyones pocket. Because in a very literal sense, the church is self funded, self protected, we are self governing. We havent seen any greater benefits by supporting anyone. If we look across the presidencies in the past, weve been attacked equally throughout. And i think we have to change the paradigm of this conversation a little bit, because i think christians in egypt, as in anywhere, have a to right to express their allegiances to whichever Political Leadership or party they see will hold their interests, without reprisal. And i think thats very important. That cant be justification. But yeah, but you know, a lot of copts, today, ive been looking at the blogs, looking at social media. They are frustrated that you at the top of the church do seem to be knee jerk loyal to the president of the country, mr al sisi. For example, while iskander, who blogs frequently on coptic issues, hes actually questioned the current popes fidelity to the coptic creed. He said the pope and the church, right now, show very little love, except to the regime, itself. I mean, he is he is very resentful. I know, and i have communicated with him in the past. I agree with this frustration, but i dont think it is about loyalty. It is about alternatives. Suppose we dont support the current president , al sisi. What is the alternative . We saw in the past presidency, our cathedral, for the first time in living history, being attacked in the sight of Security Forces who were standing, looking on and doing absolutely nothing. So that wasnt a viable option. What we can also realise is, if you are looking at the landscape, who is going to hold the interests of not only christians, but egyptians as a whole. If there was an alternative, i would say yes, of course, there is an alternative. But you know, this is a council of despair. Youre saying we have to collaborate with authoritarians, because if you dont, you have no protection at all, youre defenseless. But i daresay christians felt similar things in saddam husseins iraq, and Bashar Al Assads syria. But look at what has happened to questions in those countries. Because when the dam breaks, when the authoritarian loses his grip, because of the quote unquote collaboration, christians are in even more danger, arent they . Christians are in danger anyway. Over the past decades, weve seen that. And i dont think it is a blind allegiance. It is an informed choice. Because one looks at the options. Or lack of choice . Exactly. One looks at the options. On the 30th of september, when egyptians came out into the streets, they were by no means only christians. There was a huge spectrum. Yet, when we see Police Officers killed, soldiers killed, no one asks where they were on the 30th. No one asks what their Political Support is. They realise that they are targeted because they are Police Officers or soldiers or anything else. So christians are being targeted by this fringe, just because they are christians. And i think no matter what ever the affiliation would be, they would still be targets because of the intolerance because of this fringe element within egypt. Well, you could speak out more. Im giving you a chance in his interview to speak out against al sisi. A bunch of intellectuals, coptic intellectuals, at the time he went to new york for the last un general assembly, came out and issued a statement, quite a condemnatory statement about sisi, saying that despite cooperation between the current regime and the egyptian churches, and that would be, you know, Church Leaders like yourself ordinary christian citizens, day by day, still suffer from discrimination. You know, you have an opportunity, here, to say mr sisi, president sisi, your stand your words about helping us and supporting us are not backed by actions, and its not good enough. We have said that. But it would be naive of any of the analysts to say that we do not make demands and do not stand by our people. We have nothing to benefit except the interests of our people, and we do make demands, whether it was for people in arish, or who are attacked on a daily basis or others. And i think it is important for me as a bishop that we make these demands, we have made them to the government, through their dramatic core, and we have nothing to fear in making these claims. The background, it is striking to me that the pope described the arab spring, which we remember in 2011 a surge of people across the region taking to the streets in support of Democratic Change and reform, he described the arab spring as, quote, not a spring but a winter, plotted by malicious hands. Is that a place where christians in the region want to be . Against that surge of populist support for change and an end to authoritarianism . No one is against reform, absolutely. I think we saw what was going to happen, we saw, Knowing Egypt and knowing the political landscape, knowing the mentality and dynamic, that once this leader was gone, it would become a political vacuum. That vacuum would be filled by people who may not have the interests of the country at heart. We saw the greatest number of attacks in those two years than we had had for the previous 20 years, because it was an anarchic state. As well because there was a sense of empowerment of those who were on the fringes. Those who didnt really want to think about anyone else. The thing about democracy is that it is a means to an end. I think that end is that a democracy is only as strong as it is able to protect its smallest unit. Let me ask you about the visit of pope francis. Weve been discussing how the local Coptic Church finesses its relationship to the state and power in a very troubled atmosphere in egypt today. What do you want from pope francis . How robust do you want his message to the Egyptian Government and people to be . I think on record, pope francis has been very robust in his message in support of Christians In The Middle East and egypt, and indeed many persecuted people around the world. It is a christian message of equality and sanctity of life and dignity of life. I think that is the message that people will get. He is primarily going to visit his own constituency, but also to support the christians of egypt, and to look into the Christian Muslim dialogue on violent extremism. I think that voice going into that dialogue, that conversation is going to be important. Its not about conferences and dialogues any more, it is about taking ownership of the texts that are being used by the caliphate and its affiliates to manipulate muslims. Muslims who could otherwise be very good muslims, who use violence against peaceful, peace loving people. I have a christian has broken. Do you think most muslims are going to take lectures from leaders like pope francis . No. I am saying that the nature of the dialogue is to try and speak to our muslim friends in leadership to say, they need to take this ownership of their own texts. Some of them are doing it around the world. There are Western Christian leaders and commentators who fear that egypt, the fate of christians in egypt could, in years to come, have horrible similarities to the fate of christians in iraq and syria. In iraq, we have seen, since 2003, 80 of all christians in the country either killed or have left. In syria, the figures are getting close to that as well. Christian communities are almost eliminated. Could that happen in egypt . It is going to be more difficult. There is going to be greater pressure, this is not the end, this is only the beginning of the campaign. Your numbers are going down . Some have said Coptic Christians are 10 of 90 million, others say it is fewer. The numbers seem to be going down . The numbers tend to be somewhere between 9 13 . We have indications of about 15 . I think what we have seen, because it is such a book, it is very difficult to get what we have seen in other places. For every five Christians In The Middle East, four are in egypt. They have become a target and they live under greater pressure. There will be some relief, but i cant imagine we will have that amount of haemorrhaging we have had in other places, because what used to happen was that there would be persecution in one place, a person would go to a neighbouring middle eastern country. With a series of failed states, the only way out is europe or North America and that is becoming more difficult. Let me ask you about a very sensitive and important word in this debate. The former archbishop of canterbury used it the other day. That word is genocide. He says that we have to acknowledge and report what is happening to Christians In The Middle East as a genocide, and that there are clear moral and legal imperatives, therefore, to intervene on the part of western nations and international nations, notjust western nations. Is that word relevant . Is it, in your view, the right word for what is happening to christians . Absolutely. We have seen it happen in iraq, libya, syria, and of course in a smaller scale, but it is happening now in egypt, from this radical fringe. I was very much part of the campaign that ran to the United States before the genocide by congress, we went to the state department, i was very happy to hear a parliament here be very much in line with that. I think it is really our responsibility, as a minister and a christian, i need to look at the interests of people. I would be very tribal and supercritical if i was just to look at christians in egypt, without looking at christians across the middle east and looking at even groups like the yazidi, too. There is a narrow in scope through the middle east. Only certain people have the right to exist. We need, in conscience, to address that. If it is a word you say is entirely the right word, then what on earth is your view of western political leaders who are not intervening . There has been a deafening silence over the past decades. I think we have seen that starting to break recently. Some would say it is too little, too late, but is not too late for those who are still there and suffering. Whatever we can do, even at this late stage, we must try to do. Talking about those still suffering, there is also a debate about them, because, frankly, it seems that in iraq and syria, even those still there are making plans to escape. They see no future in either country. They think the christian experience and presence in those countries is over. Yet, we have christian leaders, i will now quote words from a former cleric, he wrote this open letter to his flock in syria saying, despite all your suffering, stay here, do not emigrate. We absorb the faithful, call them to patience in spite of the tribulations, in spite of the tsunami and bloody, tragic crises. Jesus tells us, he finished, fear not. Do you, as a religious christian leader, have a right to tell your flock not to flee in the face of all of this . The patriarch has a right to approach his own people in a way he thinks is fitting. What is your view of whether that is the right thing to say to ordinary christian people facing the reality of life and death in iraq and syria today . It is exactly that, facing reality. I dont think i should put the burden on a single individual for the continuance of christianity, and have him or her stay there at the personal cost, because of that. I think people need to make a personal decision. If they think they have a viable presence in existence, we need to support them to stay safe and dignified. But if they need to leave, if they think, they will decide on the interest and safety of their children and families, we need to provide a safe passage. I dont think we can prescribe that. What would you do if it was you and yourfamily in iraq or syria today . It is difficult to know. If i was alone as a celibate monk, i would probably stay. If i had to look after a family with vulnerable people, children, the elderly, i would look after their interests. That is why i say it is a particular personal decision that we cant take away from people. They need to make those decisions for themselves and to be able to ensure the rights. We live in freedom, dignity and safety, and i dont think i should expect less of anybody in the world. Bishop angaelos, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello. After several days of fairly quiet weather taking us through much of the weekend, next week is looking very different. Next weeks weather will get us talking, stay with me for a tease of whats to come. This is how thursday begins, with more cloud around than recent mornings, not as chilly as its been on recent mornings, but that cloud will produce some damp weather in places and a bit of patchy rain for northern and western parts of scotland, perhaps into Northern Ireland and parts of North West England to begin the day. Low cloud around as well. Venture into the hills it could be misty and murky and a similar story into snowdonia. A band of Thicker Cloud Into the midlands, wales and yorkshire producing patchy rain, not amounting to much. To the south of that for some it could be a bright start but quite a chilly start here. Even here cloud is going to increase, just leaving by the afternoon limited sunny spells, southern england, east anglia. A few brighter breaks into south east scotland, north east england, east wales, West Midlands and eastern parts of Northern Ireland but on the whole a good deal of cloud around, Patchy Rain In North and west in scotland, maybe at times into Northern Ireland and North West England but many places will stay dry. Breaking out in the sunshine it will feel warmer, maybe 15, 16 or 17. Going through thursday night were going to keep a good deal of cloud around, Pepping Up The Rain In Northern Scotland with a strengthening breeze but for many it looks like a mild start to friday morning. On friday we are going to take this Rain Southwards across scotland eventually reaching into parts of Northern Ireland. Colder air following this, maybe a few wintry showers in shetland during friday. To the south of that for much of england and wales, a good deal of cloud around, some sunny spells and the temperatures peaking into the mid teens in some spots. Friday night we continue taking this Weather Front southwards across the uk, barely any rain associated with it, but it is the leading edge of cooler air so it will be turning somewhat chillier by the start of the weekend, A Touch Of Frost in a few spots to begin the day. Quite a breeze in the north east, not as chilly as the rest of the uk into south west england, maybe south west wales, a lot of dry weather around with variable cloud and sunny spells. On sunday, england, wales and Northern Ireland mainly dry but the wind here will pick up. Wetter and windier weather will move east across scotland through the day. This area of low pressure across scotland is significant because into next week it will take colder air south across the uk and some of us will see some snow. Keep checking the forecast. You are watching newsday on the bbc. Im rico hizon in singapore. 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