Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20170313

Im stephen sackur. President Robert Mugabe of zimbabwe is 93 years old. His wife recently suggested he could win re election as a corpse. But failing that, zimbabwe needs to grapple with the issue of succession. And will follow mugabe . My guest is his former Vice President and one time heir apparentjoice mujuru. She broke away from the ruling party two years ago and now leads her own opposition party, but how tainted is she by her Long Association with Robert Mugabe . Joice mujuru, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. How can you persuade the zimbabwean people that you are an agent of change when for most of your adult life youve been one of Robert Mugabes most loyal allies and associates . Thank you very much. The way how i left zanu pf did not go down well with the rest of the country, because i never replied, i never did anything. But they know me, even during the Robert Mugabe government, that as much as i was loyal to my party, which i fought for, i was also loyal to zimbabweans because when i ran ministries they know the relationship that i was building with them. You have a record, thats true, for more than a decade you were Vice President of the country, which during that time fell into the most terrible economic crisis to the point where today a quarter of your entire population is dependent on humanitarian aid. More than half of all zimbabwes workers are actually working outside the country. Your economy and your politics are in the most terrible mess. And that is your legacy, as well as Robert Mugabes. True, because i was in government, yes i have to be associated with that failure. But they know whilst i was in government Running Social Ministries i was never in the office, i was always with the people trying to introduce programmes and businesses. I was one of the Business Associates whilst i was in government to try and show them that i was for the better part of the country. It comes down to credibility, though. When you left, actually you were expelled from zanu pf and you set up your own party, which of course now has sort of collapsed and youve got another party. But when you first left you said this together, you said, we can build zimbabwe into a modern Democratic State with a vibrant economy where every citizen is responsible for peace, forfreedom, democracy and we can prosper. Yes. Lets look at the record. You were a minister during massacres. Gukurahundi. Yes, i was minister of women affairs. 20,000 Matabele People killed. I was minister of women affairs. You knew it. You did not say a word against it. I did not say a word against it but those were Executive Orders that were used by the Fifth Brigade, and im sure with an Executive Person what else would you do . But, im sorry, how can you persuade the citizens that you believe in freedom, democracy, prosperity when your record is so appalling. You didnt walk away from government. You never stood up to Robert Mugabe. Zimbabweans, as much as we would know they would not forget what they have gone through. But what they are looking forward to now is a good future. They are now futuristic. Theyjudge people on their record. They judge. Hang on. In the past youve tried to say you didnt even know that the gukurahundi killings were happening. Are you now prepared to say that is not true . You certainly knew, you just did nothing about it. You know, when they ask me about it, because i said by association i was in government, but when you say when it was being planned, no planning and by association is totally different. With all respect, mrs mujuru, your husband Solomon Mujuru was one of the most senior commanders in the armed forces. Yes. But what. So you obviously knew what was going on. What i know about Solomon Mujuru and the Fifth Brigade was not part of the armed forces. It was a brigade that was commended outside the army. He only was involved when this was to be integrated into the army. Thats what i knew. He knew and you knew. Thats the bottom line. And the zimbabwean people have to judge you for what you did. Yes, they willjudge. They will judge somebody for what she or he will have done physically. They willjudge. They willjudge, i think, a persons ethics and morals. Lets talk about different challenges you faced in government. 2005, the mugabe governments decision to clean out many of the poor People Living in an official housing in urban areas. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people rendered homeless. Many killed as well. You knew about that too. What did you do about that . There are a lot of things that i did not agree with. A lot of things that i did not go along with. Policies. Yes. Youve described Robert Mugabe as a fatherfigure. You have said that you felt he was grooming you to be the next president of zimbabwe. So, you clearly were very happy to be part of a regime that was undertaking this sort of policy. It was the situation then when i was working with him. And i wanted to show that things can change. Even if they are not right. Things were only changing for the worse as far as i can see. Today we can give an example of tanzania. Well, look. Today we can give an example of china. The thing is we dont need to look at other examples. Yes we can look at what happened. Because what i wanted to do was to change things from within. But it never happened. And i will tell you, with the programmes that i was doing and which i was never given a chance to do that, but i can tell you a few that i did which may be angered them and hence they labelled me a liberal. Im just trying to get to grips with your relationship with Robert Mugabe. Yeah. You told the South African Broadcasting Corporation just a month or two ago, you said that you still have respect for Robert Mugabe, and that you, and this is something that you said to them, that you are prepared to forgive him for things he has done. To Robert Mugabe. Youre not a victim. Youre somebody who benefited from Robert Mugabes policies. You were one of his most trusted ministers. I will tell you. My party is not for retribution. We are for restitution. So, what we are trying to do is how best we can move forward. Were not going to ask them to forget. But we are going to ask them to look for a way how zimbabwe can move forward. Because, if we continue to live in the past it means will make another move. Do you believe injustice . I do. Do you believe that all of those zimbabweans who have suffered at the hands of the mugabe regime, for all of the different policies, some of which ive just outlined, should they be justice . Ive already started that. You wont believe me. Ive been to matabele more than seven times as from the end of last year and this year trying to show them that, you know what, when we are in this situation it doesnt mean you agree with everything, it doesnt mean you know everything. But this is how you canjudge me now asjoice mujuru with her party, National Peoples party. The thing is in matabeleland they dont believe you, do they . Activist israel dube, who is a leading campaigner for matabeleland, writes, he said this of your attempt to reach out to his people. He said, the people here will not be fooled. How can a zanu pf top official, the wife of one of the most high Ranking National Army Commanders claim that she didnt know what happened to my people . She must have been blind or deaf, or both. She is bound by collective responsibility. Let me tell you. By collective responsibility, yes, because i was in government. But ive been to matabeleland, ive also met activists, and we have been talking and they have been asking questions and ive been meeting chiefs. You know, the reason why im this bold to go and meet these chiefs, it means a heart in its correct place. You say you. If i had my own way i would have done it differently. But now that ive got my own party to tell you the truth, im very happy to meet those people. Im very happy to tell them that not everything that people in government might have taken a role, physical role, but they will be with association, yes, like me. Well get to your new party later. Yes. But lets stick with the idea ofjustice. Yes. Do you think that those who profited, profited to a massive extent from Corrupt Practices during the mugabe years, they should be held to account, shouldnt they . We know corruption has done a lot of damage to the economy and corruption is the worst thing, its the enemy of what is existing in zimbabwe today. So are you prepared now to confess . Oh, yes. To your own corrupt behaviours. Because, i havent. Uh. If i was corrupt with all what ive gone through people should have taken me in to court. In the interests of transparency then, lets just establish a few facts. Yes. How much are you worth . I only have a house. I only run on a farm, a farm which im still now negotiating with the owner. And to tell you the truth im very free to take everything down and zimbabwe will know who i am because im not a rich person. You dont mention diamond mines. We know for a fact your husband Solomon Mujuru. Yes. He owned vast diamond mining interests. We know from various scandals, frankly, involving your daughter and allegations against you personally that hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of diamonds and gold, un certificated, were presented to european dealers on your behalf. Now, ijust wonder where you got the diamonds and the gold from. Do you think if i had all that richness i would be suffering this much . Do you think since mujuru died six years ago and they have now gone trust his estate they wouldnt have said something about how rich he is . Well, its not just about your husband. Knowing zimbabwe government. Human rights watch. Knowing zimbabwe. Hang on. Lets just lay the facts on the table. Human rights watch 2009 wrote a report where they interviewed a number of miners in one of zimbabwes biggest minefields. They said to human rights watch, we named a portion of the Diamond Fields after mrs mujuru, they called it mujurus ant hill because on several nights trucks would go there and we were told by the police that the portion there belongs to the Vice President , mrs mujuru. If you go through the cabinet if you had a chance it came to the cabinet and because next to chiadzwa i was running a community programme, which was producing horticultural produce which was being sold here in london. These werent gardeners. No. These were diamond mines. No, no, no, no. Im telling. And the part of the mine that they worked on was known as mrs mujurus ant hill. Im telling you the joke. Im telling you the joke about the ant hill. Its a joke, because after they had heard that i had that they went to investigate as a cabinet team, which was set by the whole cabinet, and they discovered that it was a joke. Because these people never saw me there. Ive never been a miner. Ive never owned any thing in terms of business. So they said no, no, no, these were jokes that were going through between the two communities because they stay side by side. And they were saying, though, you changed our life through the horticultural project in the cashel valley. Well, its interesting you focus on horticulture. The record focuses on diamond and on gold. Yes, thats why. Theres a Company Called First Star Europe. Are you aware of them . No ive never been involved in any thing to do with diamonds. Well, clearly you must be aware of First Star Europe because they. I heard about it because ive never seen people coming to talk to me about it. They were approached by your daughter. They were approached about a massive deal in gold. It turned out to be congolese gold. But why is it. . The Company Discovered that you were behind many of the transactions. No. And they refused to deal with your daughter or with you because you were on a sanctions list. You know all of this. No, no, no, no. Im telling you, these are rumours. These are social media talks. If i was involved. We have on the records statements from this Company First star saying that they discovered that you were behind the deal, they wanted nothing more to do with it and they put you and your daughter on a blacklist. Thats not a social media rumour. Im telling you because im not involved. I wasnt involved. If i was involved, how would i beat this much free from such a terrible incident . How . I suppose the people who willjudge this other people of zimbabwe, arent they . Yes, they will. They know who i am. Ive nothing to hide. And they know where you live. Yes. You live on alamein farm. Oh, yeah, alamein farm. 3500 hectares. Number 4 springfield road. Yes. That, of course, was owned by a white farmer. Yes, who is a friend of mine. Guy watson smith. Yes. Well, you say he is a friend of yours. Hes been seeking compensation from you. You have not yet paid him. I will show you the e mails, including this mornings e mail. Im on an e mail basis with guy watson. Yes, because he wants his money. But i looked for him. He never, he never looked for me. You have said on the record. I looked for him. It wasnt fair, you said. Yes. I want to give him what is due to him. Yes, yes. How much have you given him . Not yet because the programme is still. Not yet . Yes. Because i didnt give the date. I didnt do anything. But what we agreed was this thing was supposed to be done according to the laws of zimbabwe. He is owed for all of the assets. Yes. Not the land itself but the movable assets. Yes. Hes owed, as i understand it, over 1. 5 million. When are you going to pay him . That is between me and guy watson, because we are discussing as to how that should be handled. This issue of putting it on air is the one that is being abused by the people in the media, because they know that once we say that, and if there is any glitch or hitch, and then they will come back to both of them and say, why is it that you havent been paid . Its because i dont have cash at the moment. You dont have cash . No, no, no. I dont have cash. Well. But what we do have is the arrangement that we have to organise the two of us, and we are in agreement as to how things have to be handled. So, let us be clear then. Yes. When you say it wasnt fair the way you acquired the land, are you saying that the entire Confiscation Programme Run by the mugabe government, which lets remind ourselves, you were a very senior minister of, going back to 2000 when the confiscation white farmland began, youre saying that was entirely wrong, are you . Because i never even took a farm for myself. That was through inheritance the way how i got gayas farm. How many farms do you own . Yourfamily. My family . Yes. As mujuru family . Yes. Just that one. Just that one . You know, i lost two farms in shamba. I got alamein farm through inheritance. See, many of the families at the top of zanu pf own a multiple farms. I have never acquired a farm. I got alamein farm through inheritance. Are you saying. . And the family lost two farms which they had. You see, youre running for office. Yes. I think you want to run ultimately for president. Yes, yes. So, are you saying to the people of zimbabwe that if you win power you will either return the land to their original owners, or you will offer Fair Compensation to every white farmer . Is that what youre saying . Yes, Fair Compensation. There is a law to that. We are for constitutionalism, the constitution has to be followed and we know personal rights, you know, rights, have to be respected so Property Rights have to be respected. We dont want to take things for granted. Because its hard for somebody to come up with something for the family. What about the Indigenisation Programme . Weve talked earlier about the failings, the disastrous state of the zimbabwean economy. One of the things which makes it very difficult for Foreign Direct Investment to come into your country are now the rules on whats called indigenisation. Would you roll all of those back too . That we have already spoken about it. As the party that we are going to repeal it. We are going to repeal it because we are for investment. We want investors, both local and international to come and help us as we are rebuilding our economy. You see, im still struggling on this. Yeah. Everything you said suggests to me that on every policy issue, every strategy, every human rights abuse, you post, albeit privately, everything that Robert Mugabe did. But there you sat by his side as his deputy and Vice President from 2004 to 2014. It doesnt mean i agreed with him. But it gets even more dysfunctional because in 2011 your husband Solomon Mujuru, who we have talked about, he was burned to death at the farm that weve just discussed. Now, he, according to many people in zimbabwe, didnt die by accident, he was murdered. You say you believe he was murdered by people connected to the mugabe regime, and yet for three more years you still served as Vice President. How could you . I am telling you, i fought in that party. I wanted to change from within. If you follow issues and programmes that i did i thought i was going to win. Thats why nine out of ten provinces had decided to do what they thought was right and chose the leadership that they wanted, which mugabe did not like and that leadership was in support of me. How could you, just a few months ago, describe Robert Mugabe as a Father Figure when you seem to believe that people close to him are responsible for the murder of your husband . He appeared to be a Father Figure to me. And that i should not run away from. Because during this trouble these were people who were giving leadership to everyone who was in this trouble. And, mind you, according to our custom these other respects that we give to our seniors. It calls into question yourjudgment. About mugabe . About everything. Everything weve discussed. It is hard to understand how your political career makes any sense at all. If you have morals, ethics, principles its very hard to understand anything you have done. The issue is you have never been to zimbabwe. The issue is you have never seen what personally i have done for the country of zimbabwe. The issue is you have never come to zimbabwe to interview for yourself those people to say, how do you takejoice as a person . Well, actually i have been to zimbabwe and i have reported from zimbabwe. You have not. You have been. So i think i have a little bit of an idea how zimbabwe and politics works. So, lets. We dont have much time. Lets get to the future. You have been there but you have not asked about me. Well, i have, actually. No. Yes, i have. No. Chuckles lets talk about the future. Youve laid out and discussed your record you seem to believe that as a record that will appeal to the people of zimbabwe. You set up a party, zimbabwe people first, and within a year of setting it up there was infighting, there was division and the party has collapsed with some of its senior figures, including a former minister, didymus mutasa, accusing you of being dictatorial and expelling you from your own party. It wasnt. We expelled them. Because right now, ask who has the people. Who formed National Peoples party . Where have they come from . Half of them have been people who have never been in politics and if they didnt want to be boggled down by things of the past. And the other half is comprised of people who have come from other parties to form National Peoples party. The people you set up this party with now say you are impossible to work with. Youve changed the name of your own party to the National Peoples party. Are you prepared to work with perhaps the best known Opposition Figure in zimbabwe, Morgan Tsvangirai, as a joint ticket to run for president against mugabe if he runs in 2018, you will run with tsvangirai, will you . Excellent, because weve already started talking about coalition. And who will take the ticket . Who will actually run for president , you or tsvangirai, under this Coalition Agreement . Its part of the process that we are carrying on right now, which i cant say who is who because its part of the results that were going to come up with. But between morgan and myself, we are working together very well. We have done a few, you know, addresses together, a few demonstrations together. And right now we are actually working on a road map, mou, so that we are able to work together. Would you accept Morgan Tsvangirai being the head, the leader, the figurehead of this movement and being the candidate for president in 2018 . Anyone. Anyone who is chosen according to our discussion i will be able to work with. The former finance minister tendai biti says zimbabwe is an unstable, fragile state that is on the verge of implosion. Would you agree with that . That is his analysis. You know biti has been a minister of finance. Yes. And he understands. Yes. What has been going on. The mess that has been made of your country over the last, lets say 20 years, at least. He would tell you exactly what happened during his time of office as minister of finance. He would be the better person because if i tell you myself you might say you are singing your former partys song. But ask some of those people whom i was working with, including tendai. In a word, you oversaw the collapse of zimbabwe. Do you really think youre the right person to oversee its revitalisation . Yes, because i know how to change. I know how to involve people who matter and these other people who have come to work with me. All right, joice mujuru, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thanks for being on hardtalk. Thank you. My pleasure. Good evening. Weve got a lot of largely dry and pretty mild weather on the cards for much of the week ahead. But, with clear skies sunday night, Monday Morning starts on quite a chilly note. Its not a bad day, though. Its looking mainly dry, and many of us will see some sunshine around too. The front that we saw on sunday that brought cloud and some Drizzly Rain Clearing away towards the east and weve got this area of High Pressure building in from the south west. Thats going to be dominating the weather through the next couple of days. So first thing monday, temperatures five or six degrees in most of the towns and cities, but its certainly a chilly start to the morning in more rural spots. Northern ireland, temperatures have been down to freezing already. Elsewhere, just one or two degrees above freezing, so we are likely to see A Touch Of Frost for one or two prone spots during the morning. Lets take a look around the country, then, 8am in the morning. Some sunshine widely across southern england, much of wales too in fact. Temperatures starting to slowly pick up, so a fresh feel to things, but its dry and bright from the word go. A bit more cloud as we move north across northern parts of wales, north west england too, perhaps a bit of mist and hill fog. For Northern Ireland and for scotland, variable amounts of cloud, but some bright, bright spells in between that cloud, and temperatures first thing around about seven or eight degrees. So, as we move through the day, cloudier conditions towards the north west, sweeping south eastwards, so slightly cloudier skies for the midlands, parts of wales later on in the day. The South East Of England and east anglia remaining largely dry with plenty of sunshine and temperatures here around about 16 degrees or so. Also, further north, for scotland and for Northern Ireland, its a decent looking, mostly dry day, with some spells of sunshine. So light winds for most of us. As we move through monday evening, there will be some rain across the north of scotland, turning quite breezy here too, whereas elsewhere across the country it is remaining largely dry. But as we move through into tuesday, what we are going to see is this frontal system trying to push from the north west towards the south east. Thats going to introduce windy conditions from the atlantic. So some brisk winds, particularly across northern parts of scotland, where we could see gusts of 60 to 70 mph. Further south across the country, it is a cloudier sort of day compared to monday, but still mild. 1a of 15 degrees in the south, and well see some blustery and heavy showers across northern parts of scotland, but most places generally dry. Into wednesday, High Pressure dominates our weather, so i think almost everywhere should stay predominantly dry during the day on wednesday, and we should see some decent spells of sunshine, with temperatures up to around 15 degrees or so. Now, the generally settled theme continues as we head through wednesday and on into thursday, but there will be some cooler and more unsettled weather on the cards coming in from the north west later in the week. Bye for now. Hello youre watching bbc world news. Im ben bland. Our top story this hour the Iraqi Army Retakes a third of Western Mosul from so called Islamic State but the gains after weeks of fierce fighting have come at a huge cost to the civilian population. Translation three of my daughters are dead. They buried my heart. They didnt let me see them before they were buried. Welcome to the programme. Our other main stories this hour fallout from a weekend of protests turkeys President Calls for sanctions as the diplomatic row with the netherlands intensifies. And with the netherlands heading to the polls on wednesday, we have a floral guide to what could be its most