Transcripts For BBCNEWS Election 2017 - BBC Wales Leaders... 20170530

In my eyes, he deserves nothing less than a life sentence, and i hope he gets it. I hope they throw away the key and he never comes out. Never to do this to anybody else again. Paterson has been told to expect a custodial sentence when he attends court tomorrow. The maximum punishment is life in prison. Jeremy cook, bbc news. And join huw edwards for the bbc wales leaders debate. Applause good evening, noswaith dda, a warm welcome to the sse Swalec Stadium in the heart of the welsh Capitalfor A Special Live election debate, and welcome to people across the uk watching on the bbc news channel. This is where well be spending the next 90 minutes, testing the pledges and ambitions of five Political Parties in wales. As voters prepare to visit the Polling Stations on thursday of next week, well be exploring some of the biggest issues featuring in this campaign, from the challenges of the Brexit Process ahead to the questions raised by the terrible events in Manchester Last week. We asked the five main parties in wales to nominate a leading representative to take part in tonights debate. Joining us tonight here in cardiff for labour we have First Minister carwynjones. For plaid cymru we have their leader leanne wood. For the conservatives we have the Welsh Assembly member darren millar, and were grateful to him for appearing as the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, andrew rt davies, and the secretary of state, alun cairns, didnt feel able to take part. For the welsh Liberal Democrats we have their leader Mark Williams. And for ukip we have their leader in the National Assembly, Neil Hamilton. Please give them a warm welcome. Applause we have a specially selected Studio Audience reflecting different opinions and drawn from different parts of wales. They will be providing the questions. Each of the politicians here will have time to answer before we turn back to the audience for further questions. And those of you watching at home or online can get involved in the discussion. Visit our live page on the bbc wales website and get involved on social media the hashtag is bbcwalesdebate. Were going to start with a brief Opening Statement from each of the participants. Its their chance to set out the broad message of their campaign, their main appeal to voters. We drew lots to decide the order. Each panellist will have up to a minute each. First is conservative darren millar. The next five years will be the most challenging that wales and the uk has faced in a generation. Our brexit deal will define the future of our nation, our place in the world and our economic security. Just 11 days after you go to the ballot box, the European Union will start its to go see asians with the uk. The leaders of 27 different nations will be on one side of the table and our next Prime Minister on the other. You will hear a lot tonight from labour, plaid cymru and the lib dems about standing up for wales, but these are empty words from the same parties who have been responsible for running wales into the ground in the past 18 years, giving us the Worst School System in the uk and record breaking cuts to oui the uk and record breaking cuts to our nhs in wales. We can ill afford to have them taking our seats at the negotiating table. We need a Prime Minister up to the job and ready to deliver for the people of wales. It boils down to a straight choice between theresa may and Jeremy Corbyn and i urge you to vote for theresa may and the Welsh Conservatives on the 8th ofjune. Darren millar opening, we now move to leanne wood. We are living through an certain times and many people are concerned whether it be about pensions, health, jobs or security. People are looking for leadership. They want to understand the plans of all of our parties, yet the plans of all of our parties, yet the tories fail to send their leaders to debate and to be scrutinised. Why . It is not easy for them to defend their toxic policies. With labour divided it is up to plaid cymru to chart a course through this uncertainty. With our positive plans to protectjobs, to strengthen the welsh economy, to improve the Nations Health and education, we are able to offer hope and optimism instead of despair and division. If you want wales to matter, if you want us to defend what we have and develop so that we can make this country even better, give us the mandate, boat plaid cymru. Thank you very much. Leanne wood with the Opening Statement for plaid cymru. We are moving to Mark Williams for the lib dems. Ladies and gentlemen, your motivation for voting next week may be on different issues. Many will vote on brexit, many on the plethora of issues that affect us in our everyday lives. I just want of issues that affect us in our everyday lives. Ijust want to of issues that affect us in our everyday lives. I just want to talk a little about values. It was graphically brought home to us last week Whena Graphically brought home to us last week when a young man walked into a p0p week when a young man walked into a pop concert and deliberately slaughtered children, our children. Families are grieving, our country is grieving, we are still in a state of shock, but we are angry. It is times like this that our action defines us, defines who er who we are as a country, defines our values. Do we point the finger, community and its community, or do we point to liberal values, open, not close, tolerant, not prejudiced, united not divided, that is the britain i and my party believing and Thatis Britain i and my party believing and that is the wales i believe in as well and it is the values i believe all of us in this country holds dear. Mark williams for the welsh Liberal Democrats. Next we have carwynjones for labour. Good evening. I got into politics through my anger at what the tories did for this country a generation ago. We thought we were done with that kind of politics, done with that kind of politics, done with that kind of politics, done with the neglect of our services, done with the gutting of whole Industries Like coal and steel without hope. The tories want to forget about that and brush it under the carpet. They are doing it because they have not changed. They dont want to think about working families rely on food banks, that is not strong and stable, that is shameful. They do not want to think about shutting the door on the poor and the vulnerable. It is cruel and wea k and the vulnerable. It is cruel and weak and we cannot afford five more yea rs of weak and we cannot afford five more years of this indifference and cruelty. Welsh labour is delivering the best ever gcse results, a living wage in the nhs and record employment just to name wage in the nhs and record employmentjust to name three, but all of this is at risk if we allow the tories to trample over this again. We will fight the tory cuts and welsh labour will stand up for all of us. Ca rwyn carwyn jones for labour. Carwynjones for labour. Our carwyn jones for labour. Our last Opening Statement is from Neil Hamilton from ukip. This election is about National Independence and parliamentary democracy being re cove red. Parliamentary democracy being recovered. Theresa may called this election for a mandate to deliver results for brexit that she did not want. The tory party did not want a referendum in the first place. If it had not been for Ukip Breathing down their necks in the last parliament, we would not have had a mandate to leave the eu. We need to keep the government on the straight and narrow. There is no doubt theresa may will be Prime Minister on the 8th of may, but we have seen that her mind is changeable. She changes her mind is changeable. She changes her mind is changeable. She changes her mind on all sorts of things as she is buffeted around by the winds of fate. Ukip is unambiguously in favour of brexit and that is what we wa nt favour of brexit and that is what we want to see delivered. Neil hamilton completing our Opening Statements. Cani completing our Opening Statements. Can i explain how we are going to manage this. There are five main questions and we have allocated around 15 minutes for each of them. What i will do once the question has been asked, is to ask each of my collea g u es been asked, is to ask each of my colleagues to answer briefly before we then open up for debate. I will do it simply in terms of leanne wood started on the first question and then darren and mark, etc. They will all have an Opening Statement, a brief opening thought on the question, before we open up. On to our first question of the evening and it comes from ali abdi. He isa he is a community organiser. In the wake of the terrible events in Manchester Last week, what will the parties do to help keep people safe, while also protecting Civil Liberties and avoiding discrimination . Thank you very much. Before i turned to leanne wood, to underline, in the wa ke to leanne wood, to underline, in the wake of the terrible events in Manchester Last week, what will the parties do to help keep people safe while also protecting Civil Liberties and avoiding discrimination . Do you have a thought on this . What is your ideal response to this . Just to bring communities together in terms of when these things take place and thatis when these things take place and that is the key. All the hate taking place right now and with the media particularly and the rise of the far right. I think the best way to keep people safe is to make sure we invest in those services, like Intelligence Services and police services, health and Emergency Services, health and Emergency Services, to ensure that if an incident like this does happen that we can do all we can to minimise the impact. But i share your concerns about divided communities and i think one of the things that the terrorists want is for us to fear each other, to turn against each other and fall out as neighbours in out other and fall out as neighbours in our communities and we must do all we can to make sure they do not win and they do not divide us. I am keen and they do not divide us. I am keen andl and they do not divide us. I am keen and i would be grateful if all the politicians here on this platform would join me in making a strong statement of solidarity that we are all in this together, we all have to Work Together to defeat both the forces of the far right in terms of islamic extremism and also in terms of the far right, in terms of White Supremacy as well. Darren . My heart went out to the victims of the dreadful Manchester Attack just a couple of weeks back. I was brought up couple of weeks back. I was brought up as couple of weeks back. I was brought upasa couple of weeks back. I was brought up as a child in manchester and i remember very much the bombing campaigns of the ira at that time. What we have got to do is make sure we have sufficient investment in our Security Services and i have been pleased the uk government have made available almost 5. 5 billion extra for additional 1900 more officers for additional 1900 more officers for m15, for additional 1900 more officers for mi5, mi6 for additional 1900 more officers form15, mi6 and for additional 1900 more officers for m15, mi6 and gchq. That is a record in terms of our investment in counterterrorism and cyber crime that will pay dividends in the future. 3500 people under surveillance by m15 who have had marked success in foiling several Terrorist Attacks since the london attack, and of course there is adequate resourcing. The Knee Jerk Reaction is to say we need more Police Officers and, yes, we do, but we need more investment in our Intelligence Services whatever the re cord Intelligence Services whatever the record the conservatives assert. The keyword at Community Level has to be integration. This is why my party has had some concerns over the prevent strategy which is directed from above them into communities rather than actively involving people on the ground in that integrated approach. I was Government Whip for Northern Ireland a generation ago, i know what its like to live with being a terrorist target, different kind of terrorism from the one that we face today. A very small number of people can cause an enormous amount of damage. As mark hasjust said, the 3,500 people who are known to m15 as terrorists or very strongly suspected to be terrorists, you cant have a surveillance over such a numberof cant have a surveillance over such a number of people. Therefore we have to invest even more than we do in the police and the Security Services. Ukips policy to increase the police by 20,000. We also need to have a much tougher policy on migration and also the deportation of those who are involved in terrorist activity, for those who are foreigners, we will be able to do this once were out of the European Union. Even for those who have dual nationality, we should strip them of british narlt and deport them as well. For foreigners and for british citizens, then obviously we need to consider very carefully not just monitoring obviously we need to consider very carefully notjust monitoring but actually taking them out of circulation in certain circumstances. Well get some responses to that. We meet this evening in the shadow of manchester, dont we. Ourthoughts have to be with the families, Emergency Services and everybody affected by what happened there. As First Minister, ive been receiving regular security briefings on a daily basis. I know how hard our Emergency Services and our Intelligence Services have been working. But lets be clear about this, these are people with whom there can be no compromise, no negotiation, no accommodation. They will not hesitate to kill people who are not exactly like them, including other muslims, who are the main targets of their murderous intent. So its hugely important we do two things yes, we need to make sure there are more police on the streets. Weve pledged that as a party. But also good intelligence. We all have a role to play. We all need to be vigilant. These people will stop at nothing to destroy our democracy and we should never, ever let them win. Thank you very much. Whod like to come in on this . Just give mea whod like to come in on this . Just give me a sense of how many people there are. Thank you very much. So, lady here first of all. Then lady there. Then ill come to the back. Thank you very much. Im a community activist. I think the problem with what happened with the terrible attacks in manchester is ignoring the role of Foreign Policy. But also, the politics of fear that we have been living in in britain. We have been living in in britain. We have to exchange the politics of fear with the politics of hope and we have to work with communities rather than Stigmatising A Minority for the sake of political gains. I think thats the problem thats happening at the moment that we are not addressing the issue holistically and we would Rain Scapegoat minorities for these gains and these things are being changed. You are making a direct link with foreign activity in the past and what happened last week, is that a direct link . Well the individual was motivated by the Foreign Policy of our country in iraq and syria. And he committed this horrendous attack asa he committed this horrendous attack as a result. So can we not address that . But also addressing the social injustices that certain communities from from poverty, unemployment. Why this 22 years old man committed this terrible attack . We need to find out the root causes of that without Stigmatising A Minority, a manifestation of this Stigmatisation Is Prevent Strategy which created a hostile environment around me, as a muslim woman who chose to wear a face veil i could be referred because this can be a sign of radicalisation, so there are flaws with the prevent strategy. Going back to my friends questions, how can we balance the National Security without undermining our Civil Liberties and treating everyone equally. Thank you very much. Making your point very clearly. The lady here next. Thank you very much. Yes. Whilst a grow we need more integration within our communities rather than divide and conquer of media and social media that is currently being played out, considering what happened on monday, is it not time we scrutinise people who are coming into our country, whether they live here or theyve come here for a holiday more seriously and those who were on the Terrorist Watch List should there now be interred or tagged as the ira we re now be interred or tagged as the ira were in the 705 and 805 . Now be interred or tagged as the ira were in The 70s And 80s . Thats a very strong point again. Can you make a note of some of these and well come back to them straight away. Gentleman in glasses there. Ye5, first i want to note that the terrorist from manchester la5t, ye5, first i want to note that the terrorist from Manchester Last, i believe he was libyan not syrian or iraqi. But also, Jeremy Corbyn a5 well has been saying iraqi. But also, Jeremy Corbyn as well has been saying that Foreign Policy is to blame for islamic terrorism. But you see islamic terrorism. But you see islamic terrorism in countries like sweden as well. Whats swedens Foreign Policy done to cause islamic terrorism . Nothing. Swedens never been to war with any country in the middle east. Theyve never done anything to deserve that. I dont think you can solve the problem unless you correctly identify what that problem is. Thank you. Gentleman at the end here. Applause then this gentleman here. Applause then this Gentleman Herelj applause then this gentleman here. I dont think there is any reason which you can give to blow up, blow yourself up can give to blow up, blow yourself up and kill children. There can be no reason at all. Applause this is a democratic country. If you dont agree with the thing, there are options for protest. You can go ona are options for protest. You can go on a civil march. You can do a lot of things, blowing yourself is not a reason to do that. Whats your response to the lady here who says that you have to look at causes which might include the way Foreign Policy has been enacted in the past . Which is fine, but the action from thatis which is fine, but the action from that is not the right way to do that. You cannot blow yourself up and kill innocent children and say that this is because of that. There is nojustification for that this is because of that. There is no justification for that. Thank you. Can you just come back on that for a second ah, i Quick Response to that. Theres no justification of course. Its just addressing the root causes holistically without stigmatising any minority. Theres no justification firstly, discrimination must be fought. There is no need for people to be stigmatised. If people are discriminated against because of what they believe in or what they look like, then the terrorists have won. Thats exactly what they want us to do. I dont agree with you that this would not have happened if it wasnt, if british Foreign Policy had been different. The gentleman made the point correctly about sweden. This is a war as they see it against all those who dont believe as they believe. Turkey has been on the receiving end of these attacks as well. We always have to look to see how we can cut off the source of that radicalisation, whether through ideas, or cutting off the money supply, ideas, or cutting off the money supply, or the supply of weapons, that much is true. With these people, i have to say, they will not stop. They will carry on. The fact that this young man came and murdered innocent people, there is no excuse for that. I know of no religion that says that part of that religion that says that part of that religion dictates that you must murder innocent, young people. Islam doesnt say that. Christianity doesnt say that. Christianity doesnt say that. But the last thing we should do is allow division to enterour we should do is allow division to enter our society. That would mean this terrorist would get exactly what he wanted. Neil, several points made, including taking a rather more radical approach to people who are on watch lists and who are suspected maybe of engaging in some preparer to activity. Whats your thought . We do have to be rather more draconian in our response. There is an argument for internment in our response. There is an argument for internment it was a disaster. That created more problems thanit disaster. That created more problems than it solved. I think we have to be rather more draconian than weveed been in the past. This is a war within islam, but also a war between that strand of islam and the rest of the world. This is fundamentally a religiously driven conflict. These people are fanatics who are not going to be influenced one way or another, though they may use it as an excuse to talk about Foreign Policy mistakes. I was against the iraq war and all the interventions in other places like libya in the middle east. I do think they have given a weapon to our enemies to use for propaganda purposes. So you could argue then, in that case, that the way Foreign Policy has been enacted if you say its given people some kind of excuse, youre making the link. Its given people some kind of excuse, youre making the linkm doesnt give them an excuse, but it gives them a Propaganda Weapon which theyve effectively used. Gentleman here has been waiting patiently. Yes, sir. So, firstly, i disagree with the lady at the front and ca rwyn with the lady at the front and carwynjones with the lady at the front and carwyn jones who says islam with the lady at the front and carwynjones who says islam doesnt advocate the killing of Non Believers when thats a verse out of the koran, what im going to say with that is religion has secularised parts of the Old Testament has similar radical views. The issue with this is its Political Correctness from each and every single one of you on the panel today. You fail to recognise the problem, which is the faith of islam and the way it is contrude. Most of the people who commit these attacks are radicalised not moderate muslims. This problem is a failure to address on each and every one of your behalfs. People in this country have been silenced for fear of being called racist and islamophobic. People need to intergrace. Integrate. Each of you need to play your role. In cardiff where imfrom, ten people have been arrested in the last year from terror related have been arrested in the last year from terror related incidents have been arrested in the last year from terror related incidents from a similar communities. A lot of the muslims go to the same schools and hang round in the same communities. If were creating this division from a young age, that doesnt set muslims and non muslims up well for the future. What will you do to combat these issues . Thank you very much. Applause well come back to you. Gentleman here. Yes; can i ask the panel, is anybody on the panel has anybody read the koran. Youre saying the Foreign Policy and Jeremy Corbyns saying about Foreign Policy. Read some of the koran and like that gentleman some of the koran and like that gentleman the point youre making is . That in the koran, it actually says that what has actually happened, basically saying go and kill any Non Believers. It actually says that in here. Why are you looking anywhere else. Thank you very much. In the back. We bombed iraq but we refused to bomb syria. So the thing about foreign currency, Foreign Policy is quite wrong w these gentlemen have said is wrong. The koran teaches jihad and we allow it to be taught in british schools. When are you going to stop that . They believe what they read and it tells them to go onjihad. They believe what they read and it tells them to go on jihad. Whats your response . I used to be a teacher and i used to teach re in a school and we teach all faiths. Its very important we teach children about all faiths. Lets not lose sight of the fact. Applause i understand the emotions about this, but lets remember we are talking about a tiny, tiny minority, totally deplorable individuals. This is not an indictment on islam. It is not an indictment on the majority of muslim communities across wales and the United Kingdom. This is a tiny, tiny number of people and we need to keep that in perspective. The problem is that the havoc they can cause and that is why i i go back to what i said at the start, that word i used, integration about working within communities to identify these individuals and to deal with them accordingly. Thank you very much. I think one of the things that we do need to do is tackle the platform that these preachers of hate, who are representative of a very small minority of muslims, with very warped views and interpretations of their holy scriptures, we need to ta ke their holy scriptures, we need to take away their platforms. One of the platforms has been the internet, social media, youtube, its been facebook. Weve got to get tougher with these Internet Service providers and these platforms to make sure that they take away those platforms and dont allow other people to be indoctriniated by these warped views which cause people to do such terrible acts like the one we saw in manchester. Are you acknowledging and saying that what weve mentioned it, the prevent strategy, theres been debate about the strategy, which is meant to take steps to stop people being radicalised. Is that an admission to say that strategy is flawed or not worth the time . There is a need of the a refresh of the strategy. Lets face it, it has been successful at foiling at least 18 terror attacks since 2013. I think that shows some of the strength of the uk governments approach in recent years and you know, im sorry, i think it is disappointing sometimes when weve seen politicians in the wa ke when weve seen politicians in the wake of the Manchester Attack try to make this a Party Political issue when we should be working together in orderto when we should be working together in order to solve this as a nation. Im going to take one comment from the back. Can i make one point about party politics. There is a political issue to be made here, thats about police cuts and police funding. Police spending has been cut by 20 by the home office, including when theresa may ran it. That has meant 19,000 fewer Police Officers on our streets in wales since 2010. So there is a political element to this question. You cant get away from that. May i also point out that crime fell by a third while theresa may was home secretary. Thats not the question in hand, though. Its not necessarily about how many Police Officers we have. Its where we target those Police Officers we have. Its where we target those its a factor though. The reality is, an extra 3. £34 though. The reality is, an extra 3. £3. 11 billion has been made available to increase the number of officers im a practising muslim. I go to mosque five times in a day. I really strongly opposing some comments about holy koran. I believe that i like to support our First Minister, the way he said, in no holy bible or holy koran or any other religious book youll never find anywhere where it is written you go and kill a person and youll go to heaven. Nowhere, i never find a person and youll go to heaven. Nowhere, i neverfind in my a person and youll go to heaven. Nowhere, i never find in my life. So thejihad, nowhere, i never find in my life. So the jihad, the explanation is actually it is not truly explained in front of everyone. I have children growing up here, Going To School and mixing with i mix with everyone as well. So my humble request, last of all, that those who are murderer call them murderer. Whatever religion, whatever race they have got, theyre murderer. We should be united together to ove rco m e should be united together to overcome this situation. Thank you very much. Applause we have overrun on the first question, so i am moving on. The Second Question is from lucy lloyd, a trainee tax advisor. As the uk prepares to leave the European Union, how will you secure the best dealfor wales . Union, how will you secure the best deal for wales . I will put you on the Spot Straightaway before i put darren on the spot. What are your thoughts on this challenge and what do you expect . What would you like to hear from this do you expect . What would you like to hearfrom this panel . Do you expect . What would you like to hear from this panel . do you expect . What would you like to hear from this panel . I would like to hear how exactly they are going to get the best deal for wales. The question is uk wide and we are great britain, but what are we are great britain, but what are we going to do for wales . There are so many aspects of wales that rely on eu funding. How will you get the funding from somewhere else or secure funding from somewhere else or secure it from elsewhere . The same form again. I want five relatively precise contributions and then we will open it up to debate. Darren. Unfortunately the eu funding we have received has not delivered the sea change that we needed to see over the past 16 years. It is an abject failure of the Welsh Government to actually deliver the sort of improvements that was expected as a result of the money that we have had, £4 million. The way we get the best deal is having the best negotiator at the table facing of the other 27 nations and i have to say it is a straight choice, either Jeremy Corbyn as your Prime Minister or theresa may. I know who i will be backing to make sure we get the best deal. When theresa may is doing the negotiations, how high up the Priority List will wales be . We are at the heart of the negotiation strategy. There is a welsh mp in the Brexit Department as a minister actively articulating the case for wales, david jones. It actively articulating the case for wales, davidjones. It is actively articulating the case for wales, david jones. It is really important we get this right. This will set the scene for future generations. I have no confidence whatsoever that having Jeremy Corbyn doing those negotiations will deliver the right result for wales. I have much more confidence theresa may will be the right person to do that. You are right to highlight the enormity at stake, whether it is those who have come from farming communities, or those from west wales in the valleys, those who represent Higher Educational institutions with flows of money and academics. The truth, sadly, is we cannot trust the tories on this. We had the opportunity to ensure there was a welsh voice in the heart of politics in the house of commons. In article 50 we tried to ensure that the National Assembly would have a real voice in the negotiations. The tory party marched against them through the lobbies and our opportunity was lost. Leannes party and by default my colleague Kirsty Williams presented a document which laid before the uk government the risks at stake. It is one thing the tory government telling us we were listened to you, we will sit on the other side of the table and nod agreement every time and every now and again. I simply do not trust them when the crunch comes to deliver the funding we are entitled to under funding we deliver the funding we are entitled to underfunding we have been deliver the funding we are entitled to under funding we have been used to under funding we have been used to over the last few years. Just for the sake of clarity, because someone will pick up on this, but you are here today representing a party that once a second referendum. Ratification referendum, a referendum on the terms like the intention to leave or remain, something specific on the terms. Not a blank check that theresa may once. That is because you still have not accepted the result according to opponent. I accepted the outcome of june the 23rd, it was a clear question. I do not agree that people did not know what they were voting for. Wales voted to leave, but it did not see the terms and the impact on the farming community, Small Businesses and Higher Education and wales needs to see the terms. I suggest that as time moves on there will be more of public hankering to look at the terms yourself and have that vote, not just those of look at the terms yourself and have that vote, notjust those of us who are lucky enough perhaps to be re elected. Are lucky enough perhaps to be reelected. Neill. None of the money spent in wales by the European Commission is european money, it is all our money, british taxpayers money. For every £1 spent in the United Kingdom by the European Union, we paid £2 into the pot, so there is a massive dividend coming to us the moment we leave and it will be up to our government to decide how that is spent. The figures are not enormous, unlike what mark said a moment ago, but they are significant. The Structural Fund for the eu they are significant. The Structural Fund forthe eu is they are significant. The Structural Fund for the eu is about 300 million a year. Similarly, our is only 2 of the uk economy. It is very important. How big is your budget . 260 million. I important. How big is your budget . 260 million. Lam keeping things important. How big is your budget . 260 million. I am keeping things in perspective. There will be plenty of money in the coffers of the treasury in whitehall. West wales is the heart of the farming community. In whitehall. West wales is the heart of the Farming Communitym you will do me the honour of listening when i finish my point. I have said on behalf of ukip in wales that every single penny the European Union currently spends in wales and our british taxpayers money should come to wales. It will be up to the Welsh Government because agriculture isa Welsh Government because agriculture is a devolved matter, to decide what is a devolved matter, to decide what is the best Agricultural Policy for wales . This should not be left to somebody who cannot be named and you do not vote for. It will be his responsibility and his government to answer to the welsh people at the end of the day if they do not deliver the best deal. When we look at net beneficiaries or not, in 2014 when we had that official study by the Welsh Government in cardiff, in that year, wales was benefiting to the tune of £250 million in terms of inflow and outflow. It is difficult to square that with you saying there is nothing coming in. The funding you mentioned earlier, basically all of that money coming from the eu is taxpayers money, it is not because there is more put back in. The United Kingdom as a whole. This is an welsh terms. Every single penny the European Union currently spends in wales should be given to wales by the chancellor of the exchequer, the uk government, who will ultimately be responsible for dividing the cake up. But i am making the point and to underline it again, in 2014 wales got more money back that it put in. Wales got more money back and it put in. I do not want that situation to change within the United Kingdom when it is our money, we decide how to spend for ourselves rather than it being decided in brussels. We cannot guarantee that same redistribution of wealth will happen through the westminster government. The tories will try to grab that money for themselves and we will lose out and that is what we have to guard against and that is what we have to get guarantees from the tories about, although their leader has gone on holiday. Tories about, although their leader has gone on Holidaylj Tories about, although their leader has gone on holiday. I will tell you precisely what guarantees the uk government has given, it has said it will guarantee the current payments to farmers until at least 2022, beyond the current chp envelope which takes us to 2020. In addition to that, we will establish a Uk Shared Prosperity Fund and i have every expectation wales will do better out of that fun than it currently does. Eu Funding Accounts for 80 of all farming, how we Guarantee A Future For Welsh Farmers u nless Guarantee A Future For Welsh Farmers unless you can guarantee that funding . I have made it quite clear the uk conservative manifesto is very clear on this, it said it would guarantee the future funding in terms of agricultural support right up terms of agricultural support right up until 2022. And beyond that . There is no guarantee from the eu beyond 2020. The Prosperity Fund gives us an opportunity to support we st gives us an opportunity to support west wales and the valleys and other places where there is deprivation like wrexham and newport. places where there is deprivation like wrexham and newport. I will give the courtesy of an answer and move beyond the squabbling. We accept the result of the referendum, the decision has been taken, it is a question of how it is done. We produced a white paperjointly with plaid cymru putting a plan in place saying how this could be done. All of the engines at bridgend go to the eu and it is important we protect that. We need to look at Freedom Of Movement and adapt it to meet peoples concerns. I have heard that on the doorstep, but there is no plan from the tories. All we hear from theresa may is slogans, brexit means brexit, and if we have somebody going into the Negotiating Chamber saying that, we might as well have a parrot to be honest. We need are worked out plan from the tories about how they will deliver this. We have done it. The welsh people are told point blank that wales will not lose out a single penny. That promise has been ditched. From 2020 that money will disappear. I know, talking about farming and hearing from whitehall, they expect australia and new zealand to produce lamb in the future, not welsh farmers. Plaid cymru has got a positive post brexit plan to protect the jobs we have got, but to create the conditions to develop betterjobs in the future as well. We have to fight for our interests to keep our funding. We are at risk of trade deals that would see our Health Service privatised and our agriculture decimated by cheap imports. Wales has not been on the agenda since the referendum and it is only by electing a strong team of plaid cymru mp5 that we will make sure that wales voices are heard and they are met as well. Who will come in on this . I am scanning the audience. Over here. Let me get a spread. The gentleman over there. The gentleman at the back. Thank you very much. I have heard you before. I will take this gentleman here and then this gentleman here. Lets have some ladies putting their hands up please. Thank you very much. Yes, in the corner. The discussion seems to be coming down to who will be best placed to negotiate for britain and we have seen theresa may already changed her mind about the general election. We have seen her strong and stable Manifesto Policy around dementia tax, as soon as it came underfire she dementia tax, as soon as it came under fire she backtracked dementia tax, as soon as it came underfire she backtracked on dementia tax, as soon as it came under fire she backtracked on that. Ido under fire she backtracked on that. I do not see for a minute how theresa may is going to best represent wales in those talks. I would imagine the 27 other leaders are saying, bring it on, if it is theresa may. The gentleman at the back. With regards to agricultural subsidies, britain has had them since 1948 and the tories have a lot of rural constituencies so they would be absolutely mad to not subsidise farmers because they would lose a load of votes. Farmers should have no worries . I think so. But in our future we need to look beyond europe. Are we going to continue to have negotiations with other countries that the eu has stopped negotiating with like the united states, japan, australia and india . Are your party is going to continue trying to get trade deals so we can sell our products are abroad. . agree with mike and the Liberal Democrats. I do not want to see theresa may given a blank cheque on the brexit negotiations. Ifeel like because she prefers the no deal over a bad deal, i do not want to see us fall off a cliff edge. I think she knows that will work for london and the finance industries, but it will not work for wales. The gentleman here. Carwyn jones, leanne wood, you both have wiped out plans for negotiations with the European Union and you are quite confident. How much of the European Union agreed to your plans . Negotiations have not started. Exactly, so what is the point of saying we have a plan and this is it. It is setting out guidelines. The only guidelines are basically amount to not leaving the European Union, lets take in the single market. Europe is our biggest market. We the us isa europe is our biggest market. We the us is a smaller market and its further away. We do need to look at other markets. We need to look at the us, india and china. We worked ha rd to the us, india and china. We worked hard to make sure that tata succeeded in wales, for example. Theres nothing to stop us looking at other markets, but we cannot turn our back on the market thats closest to us, with 440 million consumers. And we dont need to. We can still deliver brexit and have access to that market and respect the views that people expressed last year. We dont need a hard brexit. What we need is a sensible brexit. Very quickly, mark and then neil. Nobodys talking about turning our backs on europe. Were not building a wall and stopping people from going across the channel. Lets not forget that our trade with the eu amounts to 7 of our National Income its 6796 of our amounts to 7 of our National Income its 67 of our exports. Amounts to 7 of our National Income its 67 of our exports. Maybe so. What do you mean maybe so . We have a Trade Deficit with the eu. 60 billion a year in their favour. With germany, we have a 20 billion a year deficit with germany alone in cars. There is every reason to think that the eu being rational will want a Free Trade Agreement with us which is what the British Government is pushing for. There are 200,000 jobs in wales currently reliant upon the single market. We have to have a starting position. You have to have a plan. Plaid cymru has got a plan. What concerns me is that the tories have no plan to safeguard those jobs. Theyve not shared with us what their starting position is. We dont know what their basic principles are. We have no idea how theyre going to protect the Agricultural Industry or those 200,000 jobs reliant on the single market. Theresa may has said shed rather walk away without a plan than to sign up to without a deal than to sign up to without a deal than to sign up to without a deal than to sign up to a bad deal. That would be absolutely disastrous. So you wa nt be absolutely disastrous. So you want a bad deal do you . For the Agricultural Industry and many people in wales who rely upon those jobs. Its simply unacceptable for the tories to be in this position without one. Ukip dont have one either. Its not a war neil. We need to try and find the best deal for all sides. Its not us versus them. That kind of talk going into the negotiations is already going to start us off on the wrong foot. Applause cani applause can ijust applause can i just remind applause can ijust remind this audience and others what is at stake. Industry, the lamb industry for instance, 93 of of the exports which go to the European Union. Mrs may did have a bit a plan at the start. The bit of the plan was that the Divorce Proceedings would run concurrently with trade discussions. Thats not going to happen. We face the very real prospect at the end of the Divorce Proceedings of falling off the edge of a cliff with World Trade Organisation tariffs, which will be the death knell of much of the rural economy. Remember, were notjust talking about farming. Were talking about a broader rural economy, which without those subsidies will be seriously jeopardised. Without those subsidies will be seriouslyjeopardised. The question at the back mentioned about tories representing rural constituencies. Cani representing rural constituencies. Can i assure you that the rolling shires of east anglia are very different to the uplands of wales, where communities are at risk. Thank you very much. I dont think the other panellists were listening earlier when i made it clear what the plan was in terms of support for ourfarmers, the plan was in terms of support for our farmers, which would continue until 2022, not 2020 which is the current arrangement under the eu. Youve got no guarantees with anything else. What i will say is this if you want to talk about farming, one party which is no friend of the farmer is the labour party. Just last week in the Assembly Chamber we had lesley griffiths, the minister responsible for agriculture threatening our farmers with literally thousands more regulations. Youve had ian lucas more regulations. Youve had ian lucas name three. Describing brexit as an opportunity to slash budgets. He asked you to name three. Im simply quoting budgets. He asked you to name three. Im simply quoting name three. Just three. She also said what about your leader, hes not here, is he . I think farmers do a good job running their businesses, contributing 5. 7 billion to the economy. Theresa may will never put that at risk i know lots of you want to come in. But we are really battling against the clock. Im going to move on to talk about the partys economic policies. This time i want to go to carol. Thank you very much. policies. This time i want to go to carol. Thank you very much. I wanted to ask you all with many peoples wages stagnant or the rate of inflation negating pay rises, what are your parties policies going to do to alleviate poverty in welsh communities . Dont we need an end to austerity and a completely different plan . Do you mind, ifi again, im going to do the same as before, ask you what are you hoping to hear . Whats going to sway you . you what are you hoping to hear . Whats going to sway you . I need to hear something thats radically different because whats happening at the moment just different because whats happening at the momentjust does not different because whats happening at the moment just does not work. Weve got families living in poverty even though theyre working two or three jobs. Define radically different for me in any kind of area of policy, tax, spending what kind of policy, tax, spending what kind of Radical Change would you like to see . We need a different way of funding our communities. We need a different way of Funding Health and education. We need a chance for people who have very little income to keep what they have. We need those who are fortunate enough to earn plenty to be prepared to help until we can level things out. Earn plenty to be prepared to help until we can level things outm earn plenty to be prepared to help until we can level things out. It is redistributing in a much bigger way, ina much redistributing in a much bigger way, in a much more radical way than anybodys suggesting. Is any Party Getting close to what you want at this point or not . Not at the moment, no. Interesting. First one on this, mark. Firstly, you say youre a teacher, im a former teacher too. Still a member of my union. They do good work in reminding the fact that the teaching profession, like the health profession, like the health profession, like the health profession, like people working in local government, have had a freeze on salaries, a 1 cap. That cap should be lifted. We need to be using this opportunity to invest in our economy. Its a very big question you pose, investment in big Infrastructure Proinjects that we hear a great deal of, at the end theres very little delivery on the ground. We think about the swansea bay tidal lagoon project, the south wales metro, north wales, electrification, proinjects like that. You specifically mentioned health. My party is unique amongst the parties here today talking about tax to fund our national Health Service. Particularly in those cinderella services, Mental Health and care for the elderly, im muddling my words. That needs investment. Thats why our party has said we need a penny on income tax. Having taken, i should add, in the last Coalition Government, one of the rare aspects of Coalition Government i fully endorse, taken many, government i fully endorse, taken any government i fully endorse, taken many, many low paid workers out of tax all together, some four million tax all together, some four million tax taken out of work. We believe we should use the Income Tax System to put that investment in the national Health Service. There are also, i should say, a welter of benefits that the conservative party in the last two years have slashed or proposed to freeze and we believe those benefits should be upgraded and cuts to things like 19 to 21 year olds accessing housing benefits, thats denied by the tories, we believe that should be re instated. Tories, we believe that should be reinstated. You believe in that penny on income tax. Your Corporation Tax plans as well involve an increase dont they . No, the Corporation Tax involve reversing the tory cap, raising £24 billion over the five year period to fund the national Health Service. Because wherever you come from, whether its an urban or rural area, you should agree that mental Health Services and care for the elderly are areas where we need more money that would free up £300 million for ca rwyn that would free up £300 million for carwyn jones that would free up £300 million for Ca Rwyn Jones and that would free up £300 million for carwynjones and my colleagues from the assembly to deliberate and i hope spend on the national Health Service. Neil . Ukip believes in spending an extra 9 billion a year on the Health Service. Another 2 billion on social care and the 9 billion on social care and the 9 billion on social care and the 9 billion on the Health Service would include an extra 500 million for Mental Health as you rightly say the cinderella of our medical services. We dont need to put up taxes to get this money. We can divert resources from other budgets. We would take it from other budgets. We would take it from the Overseas Aid Budget, not humanitarian and crisis aid, but long term strategic goal aid, which is often ineffective and cant be measured to see if its working or not. We would take a lot of low earners out of the Income Tax Net by pushing the threshold to 13,500 a year. The experience weve had in our life times is that the opposite happens, what we want to create in britain and wales in particular is an Enterprise Economy. The problem with wales is that our private sector is too small to generate the wealth that we need to redistribute. We must do something to try and change the whole game plan for that. Im in favourand change the whole game plan for that. Im in favour and my partys in favour ever devolving Corporation Tax powers to the Welsh Assembly, for example. So we can create in wales a kind of Tax Haven Status which the Irish Republic has successfully used in order to attract new industries, Financial Services industry have made their home in dublin to the immince benefit of the immense benefit of the irish economy. Thank you very much. Tax havens have no Health Service and poor spending on education, each and every one of them around the world. You asked the point what can we do . My case in point, there was a time when we used to say to people that the way out of poverty was to get a job. That doesnt happen any more. Weve got nurses using food banks. We saw the lowest pa id have nurses using food banks. We saw the lowest paid have had tax credits taken away from them. Those who the richest had a tax cut. Those who are the poorest had a greater tax burden. Weve got to change that. First of all, you have to make sure you create jobs. Weve first of all, you have to make sure you createjobs. Weve had seven yea rs you createjobs. Weve had seven years bumping along the floor. No one can say britain is flying at the moment, its not. We when have inequality in society its not something we can be proud of. People struggle still to make ends meet. We supported our steel industry, tata. We spoke to them and enabled them to stay in wales. Uk government didnt doa thing. Stay in wales. Uk government didnt do a thing. We brought our National Airport and made it the Fastest Growing airport in britain at the same time, the tories were happy to leave it closed and 1,000 jobs go with. It thats what they wanted to do. We brought in aston martin, tvr to namea do. We brought in aston martin, tvr to name a view. Weve got high employment, but theres more to do. Theres still too much inequality. We need a uk government to deal with the scandal of zero hours contracts. We need a government to deal with ensuring there are more prosecutions for breaches of the minimum wage, because its a uk government that can do that. Thats why we need a Labour Government in westminster and a Labour Government in cardiff working together to make our society more equal. Thank you very much. Leanne . I believe in the principle of Public Services. I believe that those people who are in the best position financially should pay the most towards them. But austerity is not working. The uk has got a debt of £56 billion, sorry a deficit of £56 billion and the debt is 1. 7 billion and rising. Thats after almost a decade of austerity. That shows to me the Tory Austerity has failed and our Public Services and our infrastructure are crying out for investment. Were losing teachers. We cant get enough doctors into our Health Service. Our communities are losing funding through benefits cuts, the cuts to the communities first programme, objective one funding is going to be lost. So im concerned that some of those people who are currently living in poverty are going to be living in poverty are going to be living in poverty are going to be living in even worse poverty. What do we need to do about it . Well, we need to introduce a real living wage, not thejoking need to introduce a real living wage, not the joking wage. Need to introduce a real living wage, not thejoking wage. We need to make sure that pensioners are adequately provided for and that their care costs are not overburdensome. There needs to be an end to the benefit cuts programme and we need to devolve some aspects of our Social Security so that we can do things differently, so that we can treat people with dignity and respect. We need to end austerity. We need to stop those at the bottom of the pay scale have their frozen pay while those at the top, including mps and other politicians, whove taken pay rises. That is not on, it has to stop. Thank you very much. Applause i think we have to remember what we inherited when a uk Prime Minister walked through the door at number ten back in 2010. We had a nation whose public finances were in tatters. Largest deficit since in peacetime history. Our country was on the brink of bankruptcy. Since then, weve managed to get the deficit down by two thirds. There are 1. 2 Million People here if wales have had a tax cut since 2010 because of a result of changes to the personal allowance. 174,000 people have been taken out of tax all together. Weve had the National Living wage, which has given people an increase in terms of the lowest paid in our country. And weve got many more people, 122,000 more people back in work in wales that werent in work previously work in wales that werent in work previously on low paid jobs and zero hours contracts. What weve got to do is deliver on some of the things which weve already set out and started the ball rolling on. Weve got to get on with delivering on the 1. 2 billion capital city deal for cardiff. Weve got to get on in terms of delivering the swansea bay city deal, which has been worked up with the Welsh Government as well. Were making significant investment in that too. Theres a clear commitment to scrap the Severn Crossing tolls which will add 100 million according to the Welsh Governments own estimates into the welsh economy. Weve got to secure a into the welsh economy. Weve got to secure a growth deal as well for north wales and be active about getting local authorities and other sta ke getting local authorities and other stake holders actually bringing one to the table. If we do that, we can be very optimistic about the opportunities that wales has Going Forward in terms of creating new jobs and prosperity for all. The tidal lagoon, was that part of the list . Our position on that has not changed. We have always been supporters of delivering a Swansea Tidal Lagoon L swansea bay. Of tidal lagoon in swansea bay. Of course at the moment the Hendry Review has reported and that review is being looked at by the Uk Department for energy and climate change. Once that report is back to ministers after the election, i am hopeful for a positive outcome. The tidal Lagoon Notjust in swansea bay, but also in north wales, offer massive opportunities. Very hopeful or very confident . I am very hopeful there will be a positive outcome. We have to make sure it will be a good deal for taxpayers and that is the right and sensible thing to do. You are massive fans of it because presumably you think it will be a good dealfor taxpayers, is that right . I am very hopeful it will be. The Hendry Review sets a way forward and uk ministers are considering that at the moment. It is notjust about swansea, we have got to look at opportunities in the north wales coast. The lady in the front. The entire panel has failed to address the female half of the population and one of our Biggest Barriers to re entering employment is the cost of childcare. The Womens Equality Party have a radical policy on childcare and i would like to know if any of the panel has engaged with them to look at that. We saw Jeremy Corbyn today get into a little spot of bother getting figures into the cost of labours policies. What is your thought on that . One of our commitments was to introduce childcare for 3 4 year olds and we think that is a good investment in families and it would enable women to get back to work if there is a barrier to them getting back to work. There are several pilots already in wales and that is an example of us working to make sure that as many barriers as possible are removed to women going back to employment, so women can go back to work and increase incomes in their pockets. On a daily basis People Struggle to see how that Childcare Initiative will work in their lives. Leanne . The Labour Position is interesting on this. What about your position . I live in a local authority that used to provide education for children from the age of three years old and as part of austerity that has disappeared. We are talking about reintroducing provision for 3 4 year olds and plaid cymru wants to introduce provision for two year olds outside the flying start area and that would involve investment over and above what is currently invested in childcare at the moment to the Tune Ofan Childcare at the moment to the tune of an extra £50 million. Are you satisfied with the answer . Is that a yes . It is a very cautious yes. Yes, iam. Yes . It is a very cautious yes. Yes, i am. Anyone in this corner . The gentleman here. I graduated three yea rs gentleman here. I graduated three years ago with a good degree from a good university. I have got a relatively good job. It pays relatively good job. It pays relatively well, but even on that salary the idea i might be able to save enough to buy my own home any time soon is a pipe dream. What would the panel say to younger people like me who want to own their own home but for whom it is impossible at the moment . Yes, sir. The question i asked, which party is in the best position to address the redistribution of wealth . Surely thatis redistribution of wealth . Surely that is the Communist Party. But in this election the Communist Party are standing down to enable comrades corbyn to be elected. Carwynjones did a very good job at distancing himself from his leader, but at the end of the day of 04 car window is a vote forJeremy Corbyn. Do you think the question has been answered or not . No. What policies would alleviate poverty . Generation after generation a lot of people are making a good living out of poverty. What do you mean by that . In terms of the labour party and various parties it is in their interests to keep people at a certain level to justify their position. That is quite a thought. We had this conversation before many times. The labour party in 1945 at a time of great austerity after award created the nhs to put people injobs, gave people the training they needed, created the boom of the 19505. To suggest the labour party revels in poverty i find offensive. We have done everything we can to raise people out of poverty even as the conservative have put people back into poverty. The lady in the centre. To the tory member, you seem quite proud of the deficit coming down. I personally believe austerity has a down. I personally believe austerity hasa human down. I personally believe austerity has a human cost. Were you affected at all by austerity . I have seen it at all by austerity . I have seen it a lot. Applause i have seen decisions of the welsh Labour Government supported by plaid cymru and the lib dems to cut nhs spending in wales. It isa spending in wales. It is a fact. That is nonsense. We spend more per head than any other country. We are clear that wales had the deepest record breaking cuts of any uk nation as a result of decisions. Ask them what they think. Carwynjones harps on about the fact we spend more on health per head than we do in england. That is right, but we ought to be spending more because our levels of deprivation and need mean we need more spending. For every £1 that wales gets under the barnett formula, for every pound that is spent in england, wales gets £1. 20, so why are we only spending 70 . What we need is a very different approach. You can harp on all you want, but at the end of the day these are crocodile tears. There are people waiting in pain, languishing on Waiting Lists and carwynjones is refurbishing his offices at a cost of millions of pounds. Hang on a second, the lady here. This is directed at you, darren. Under the tory government that we have seen massive reduction in benefits for disabled and Vulnerable People. The un Censored The Westminster government for this level of cuts. Going forward are you going to promise that we are not going to see this continuous attack on disabled and Vulnerable People in terms of their benefits . The more you take away from them, the harder it becomes for people to integrate in society and the harder it is for them to get jobs. Society and the harder it is for them to getjobs. When society and the harder it is for them to get jobs. When you take away a Mobility Vehicle it prevents that person from getting the job. I know of people who have had a job, had the vehicle taken away, had to rely on public transport, and because of the lack of Public Assistance they have not been able to go to work and they have lost theirjob and are in a worse situation. So the direct point is what . We want a promise from the westminster government that they will stop this attack on disabled people and start enabling rather than actually removing benefits. There has been no attack on disabled people. What we have seen our on disabled people. What we have seen our record numbers of disabled people back in the workplace, having the dignity of their own job and their own income. The conservative party, it was a conservative government under john major that introduced the Disability Discrimination Act and we have got a very proud record. Giving people the dignity of being able to enter the workplace, and i have met many disabled people who have been in my office and said what a rewarding experience it is to getting into a workplace and earning your own living. That is what most disabled people actually want. He has not got a clue. Why . He has not spoken to people who have had their benefits cut. This is hypocrisy. Not only have the cut benefits, they have also cut the block grants to the National Assembly and cuts to this grantand National Assembly and cuts to this grant and cuts to benefits have a knock on impact elsewhere. Mental Health Services cost more to provide, social services, housing services, they cost more to provide when people are desperate. If you speak to people running food banks they say people are using them because of change to benefits and delays to benefits being paid. You need to get out and speak to more people. And also that Work Capability assessment is completely unfit for purpose. Far from raising self esteem and dignity it destroys people and that has to go as well. Neil. The talk of austerity is misplaced because no government in peacetime history has borrowed more money than the government of George Osborne and philip hammond. Nearly £1 trillion has been borrowed since 2010. But they have got the wrong spending priorities. We have legislated to increase the Overseas Aid Budget to 0. 7 of gdp. That would be £50 billion a year in two years time. A lot of that money is wasted and it should be redirected into disabled peoples benefits, the Health Service and so on and so forth. Ill thought out schemes like the bedroom tax made life difficult for people who are the most vulnerable in society. At the end of the day, the only way we can alleviate poverty in this country or any country is to have a growing economy which will generate the wealth which we can then redistribute. It will not come from Tax Increases or from the treasury either, or you can borrow indefinitely. It will come from the eu. That is our money. Labours programme has another 45 billion black holes they cannot explain for this election now. You cannot go on for ever spending money you have not got, somebody has to pay it back eventually. A gentleman in the back row who has been waiting very patiently. I want to go to the conservative guy. How can you pick on all these pensioners and then justify by filling mps pockets by a 10 pay rise . Justify by filling mps pockets by a 1096 pay rise . Who would like to tackle that . You are right about the issue of the mp5 pay rise and i suspect Like Assembly members there isa suspect Like Assembly members there is a difficulty in not taking the pay rise, but there was an issue where we as individuals could spend the pay rise. You are right to highlight that issue, it is an issue of great concern. You are right also to mention the issue of principles and pensions. What we have not heard much about is the abandonment of the triple lock on pensions which guarantees Peoples Pensions at a decent level. Not enough but better than before, to be replaced by a Double Lock Pension. What is the Double Lock Pension. What is the Double Lock Pension. What is the Double Lock Pension . Will it mean that pensions rise or are they more likely to fall . If i can make it clear and respond to the point. We are supporting pensioners. What you have seen since 2010 is pensioners getan have seen since 2010 is pensioners get an increase in their income of £1250 a year by the next financial tax year. That is in terms of their basic state pension. That is a far cry from the 25p that was added by gordon brown when he was Prime Minister. We guarantee the triple lock until 2020 and beyond that double lock so that pensions rise either with or inflation, whichever is higher. That is a fair deal for our pensioners. We want to see some legislation in the National Assembly to ensure older peoples rights are enshrined in law. Childrens rights and other peoples rights, so why not pensioners . I will come back to carol in not pensioners . I will come back to carolina not pensioners . I will come back to carol in a second too asked the question. The lady here first of all. The nhs is already in decline, how do you plan to address the potential nhs Employee Shortage that would be caused by brexit and new Immigration Rules . Can we just, caused by brexit and new Immigration Rules . Can wejust, neil, given that you have a perspective on this, can you have a perspective on this, can you answer that . The impact of brexit on staffing in the nhs. How do you deal with that . There should be no problem at all. As with every other country in the world, which manages and controls immigration, you can select the groups of people that you want. The problem that theres no impact . Well, there shouldnt be any impact. At the minute we do in effect discriminate against the world the rest of the world by having Free Movement in the eu and control in the rest of the world. What we want is to have a non discriminatory Immigration Policy which applies equally to all countries in the world and every year we will see what the skills gaps are in our economy and we will make provision for that in the numbers that we allow to come here. Is that a credible answer, what do you think . Successive Welsh Governments of labour, plaid cymru and labourand the governments of labour, plaid cymru and labour and the lib governments of labour, plaid cymru and labourand the lib dems governments of labour, plaid cymru and labour and the lib dems and labour have not trained enough doctors and nurses. Thats why were in this pickle. We have doctors surgeries closing in some parts of wales, including my own constituency the Brexit Impact wales, including my own constituency the Brexit Impact on the nhs staffing, what is the impact . There will be a merit based Immigration Syste M will be a merit based Immigration System which will ensure that weve got the skill thats we need here in wales and across the United Kingdom, including the skills that we require for our Health Service. Are you concerned about the potential impact on the Health Service . Im not concerned because we actually have people coming from outside the European Union into the Health Service right now. If you go into any hospital in wales, you will see thatis any hospital in wales, you will see that is absolutely the case. That can continue, but fundamentally we need to get back to training enough doctors in wales rather than having to import them from elsewhere. Lady in the corner. Going back to the pensions questions, what about the pensions questions, what about the waspy situation, the ladies of the waspy situation, the ladies of the 19505 who are not able to get their pensions until age 66 and they we re never their pensions until age 66 and they were never told. What do you plan to do about that . Thank you very much. Gentleman here in the front. My concern with brexit is were going to lose money in terms of eu funding, now my concern would you start cutting on the basic vital sectors in society, like nhs, education, or basic benefits . One of the us president s before being elected he said, read my lips, there will be no tax cut. And the first thing he did after winning the election is he arranged the taxes. Can you give me the security openly that you will not do these cuts . The record of the uk conservative led government since 2010 is one of additional increases in nhs expenditure to record levels. What we saw in wales was actually cuts. Cuts which delivered longer Waiting Times than in england, longer Waiting Times for diagnostic tests and treatment, worse Ambulance Statistics and treatment, worse Ambulance Statistics much better than england. Much better. Many more people waiting more than four hours in our Emergency Departments than they should be. That is a legacy of failure that all the parties here on the panel are responsible for. Weve got to get back to insetting properly in our national Health Service. There will be an additional £400 million available to wales over the course of the next parliament if theresa may is Prime Minister specifically for the Health Service. I want carwynjones to guarantee that money will be passed on, i suspect he wont. If we get massive cuts everywhere else but more money for health its a zero sum game. You didnt pass all the money on in the last parliament. You cant divorce the two, per head, 7 more. We see a doctors strike in england, a new Cancer Centre being built in cardiff on your doorstep, a neonatal care unit being built now. They would not have been built if they were in england. They are because we decided to invest in wales. The last thing we should do is make britain appear unfriendly to doctors from other countries. Medicine is a portable qualification. The last thing we should do is make the uk look like a place that is unfriendly to recruiting doctors and nurses from abroad when 6 of our doctors come from the eu. We have to look unfriendly to the rest of the world because we have Free Movement in the eu. Thats what we want to change. More unfriendly. Quite the opposite. Im sorry. I know youre trying to get in. I need to move on. A few minutes left. The final question. Rachel, where are you . Youre a student, i believe. Yeah. Could you tell us, where are you studying . Cardiff university. A fine choice, ifi cardiff university. A fine choice, if i may say. So whats your question. My question is with the future looking so uncertain at the minute, what is the panels view for wales position within the uk within the next ten years . We are up against the clock my dear friends, so on against the clock my dear friends, so on this i really do want you to be concise. Im going to start with, i think its neils turn this time. I want to reverse the trend of my lifetime where wales has gone backwards relatively within the uk. Were now at the bottom of the table of the nations and regions of the uk in terms of income and gross value added. Thats a relic of failure by Labour Governments and conservative governments as well. What we need is to create an Enterprise Economy in the new wide world that were going to rejoin as a result of leaving the eu and so, raise the Income Levels of wales by Inacrossing A Business Friendly Environment here which is going to generate the wealth that we all need to redistribute. What i dont want is a wales of tory cuts, a wales where young people are ignored and squeezed, where older people are cast onto the scrap heap, where entrepreneurship is not rewarded, Public Services are destroyed as they are in england. People might think the things will carry on as they are, things will get a lot worse. Weve had seven years of tory cuts. We will get a lot more. I want a wales where fairness, justice and opportunities are not optional extras, but theyre pa rt of are not optional extras, but theyre part of what we do as a society. A wales where people are given a chance to flourish, where young people have investment made in their skills, where older people are looked after, and above all else, where Business Newerish to create the income to pay for our Public Services. Thats my wales. I believe thats your wales and together we can build that wales leanne . As we look to the future, i see the Muller Anniversary Gameses potential that the amazing potential that the amazing potential we have, i hope you would agree that wales could be doing even better as a nation. We already have a country we can be proud of. But we can be doing so much better. Weve got potential in our economy, in our energy, in our nhs, our education systems. Potential that is yet to be unlocked. Over the next five to ten yea rs, unlocked. Over the next five to ten years, i want to see that potential unlocked with a plaid cymru government in an assembly which has more powers and which becomes a Real Parliament capable of providing real improvements in peoples lives, a strong team of plaid cymru mps can help our country by ensuring that the brexit deal that we get helps our economy instead of holding it back. So get behind plaid cymru in this election and join me in working towards a more positive future for wales. Thank you very much. Daran . believe the future of wales and the future of the United Kingdom can be fantastic outside the European Union, but its very important that we support, that we secure the right deal as part of the Negotiation Process which will start just 11 days after the vote next week. I believe that the best person to deliver the right deal for wales and the rest of the uk is theresa may. I dont accept that Jeremy Corbyn is the right man for the job. What we will do in delivering on the referendum result, people in wales voted for leaving the eu remember, is we will actually begin to be able to take control of our own laws so that laws made It Westminster and cardiff are the ones which actually affect peoples lives. Well be able to take control of our own borders, our own money, whilst we build a deep and special relationship, yes, with the rest of the eu, but also with the rest of the eu, but also with the rest of the eu, but also with the wider world. Thats where the opportunities lie. Our National Assembly will receive more powers, which will be devolved to it as a result of the Brexit Process. Im confident that will strengthen our devolved institutions as well across the uk. Im very excited about the opportunities for wales post brexit. I believe that theresa may is the right person to be leading those negotiations so that we get the best possible deal. Thank you. Mark. The wales in which i live with my family is warm, embracing, tolerant, united, Community Based they re embracing, tolerant, united, Community Based theyre qualities we should be proud of and we should strengthen. I look it a wales that is strong within the United Kingdom. Its voice is heard around the tables of whitehall and elsewhere. A whauls that acknowledges whitehall that acknowledges its responsibilities to wales, whether that be funding, or as we move forward to devolution, making my colleagues here the real Decision Makers for wales, not dependent on decisions by uk ministers. A wales that has a role in the world. Yes, there are opportunities with brexit. But even at this point, where we are now, lets not turn our back on europe, that has been good for wales. We must remember that. As we conclude this last of the leaders debates, i think, just to say that no one party has a monopoly of love of this country or a desire to defend its interests. Thats the responsibility of all of us, regardless of our party. Thank you very much. Thank you for those statements. Applause weve just got a matter of seconds left. Rachel, you asked the question, as a student, youre looking ahead to your career and life and im thinking about whats been said here about wales, whats your perspective . I resonate most with leanne. I think wales has a lot of potential. It will be amazing to see welsh Patriotism Go Beyond Just Welsh rugby matches and for our language and for our country to be taken more seriously. Thank you very much. Carol, you asked the question earlier, whats your perspective as we close this debate, were looking ahead to the wales of five, ten yea rs ahead to the wales of five, ten years hence. A grow with what three of the panel have said in their final closing, that wales is a wonderful country. I chose to live here, i sadly wasnt born here. I am very concerned that at least two of our guests this evening seem to have no understanding of how ordinary welsh people are living. Thank you very much. Very brief. With regards to Mark Williams, you talk about defending wales and standing up for wales, well, as the welsh mp thats performing worst in westminster, you are hardly the person or the party to really defend wales. In all fairness, mark doesnt even have time to come back on this. Are you saying time to come back on this. Are you s. Time to come back on this. Are you saying no . Im saying no. Fine. One very quickly. Thank you very much. For all of you, particularly for the First Minister, who is effectively Prime Minister of wales, next five, ten years, your stats from your own government says for the 16 to 64 year olds the percentage of unemployed drawing unemployment benefit, number one in the uk, number one north east, number two wales. . Thank you very much. Lots of very strongly made points. Im afraid, sir, and to all of you here, ourtime sup. Im really afraid, sir, and to all of you here, our time sup. Im really sorry. 90 minutes has flown, thanks to our politicians, thanks to the audience, here at the ssc Swalec Stadium. Im sorry for those i didnt get in. The debate continues with a special programme on bbc two wales right now. You can continue to have your say on social media. The hashtag is bbc wales debate. A full list of candidates by the way, standing in this election is available on the bbc website. So, from cardiff, thank you all for watching. Just over a week left to make up your mind. Diolch am wylio, nos da, have a good night. Tonight at ten Jeremy Corbyn apologises after being unable to come up with the cost of labours key childcare policy. Extending Free Childcare in england was the manifesto pledge he was campaigning on today, yet he struggled badly with the numbers. How much will it cost . I will give you the figure in a moment. You dont know it . You are logging into your ipad here. You have announced a major policy. Meanwhile, theresa may returns to her main election message saying only the conservatives can be trusted to win a good brexit deal in brussels. Launching the snp manifesto, Nicola Sturgeon says victory in scotland would further reinforce the mandate for a second independence referendum. And the political leaders in wales take to the stage for a Live Audience debate. Also on the programme tonight the singer Ariana Grande announces