Transcripts For BBCNEWS Dateline London 20200829

Over the killing of two protestors. Lets speak now first to Jeffrey Kofman about that. A very strong message from the president and indeed, a pretty sharp rejoinder from joe biden saying, well, how safe do you feel in Donald Trumps america right now . Who benefits if this is a law and order election . dont think trump has a lot of options here in terms of the messaging. We have three massive crises in the us and globally in terms of the pandemic, in terms of economic collapse and related to that, and employment. Trump doesnt have a record to stand on that is persuasive on those topics so he is going to the old saw, going back to Richard Nixons 1968 and saying, are Richard Nixons1968 and saying, are you safe . And trying to play on insecurity. The kenosha pictures, those rates absolutely pay into his hand. The question is, does this really, a re hand. The question is, does this really, are these the biggest concerns of americans today . And the evidence is pretty cloudy on that. People are very concerned about the pandemic, we are seeing 1,000 americans die per day, 182,000 so far. By the election, it may well be over a quarter of a million americans have died and trumps response is patchwork at best. Unemployment is 57 million americans have applied for unemployment, five times where it was at the beginning of the year. He cant really stand on that, he really has to say insecurity, which is obviously the thing that plays to our fundamental concerns, is the thing that you need to worry about. And those kenosha pictures absolutely are playing into that. But the idea that biden will make is unsafe, it is one that may 01 make is unsafe, it is one that may or may not resonate. The times have changed since 1968. Thomas, nonetheless, the president taking a very combative approach to the campaigning, the nine weeks left until polling day, saying in particular thatjoe biden would be capitulating to extremists and capitulating to extremists and capitulating to extremists and capitulating to coronavirus as well. Imean, he capitulating to coronavirus as well. I mean, he says his administration is battling with the coronavirus and saying, we are the ones listening to the science, people likejoe biden and the democrats want to shot down the economy in defiance of the science. Well, i dont know why trump is called a reality tv star, anything that he says is an absolute slap in the face of real life. He said in his acceptance speech that he has done more for black americans than any other president since he says that he has acted swiftly when the coronavirus broke out. It was the coronavirus broke out. It was the opposite that was the case, he completely negated its importance. And so i think eventually, this is more a fight about law and disorder, trump has increased the sense that americans live through a period of disorder and that comes basically from the fact that he refuses to acce pt from the fact that he refuses to accept reality as it is and be more down to earth, real life president , rather than living in this cloud cuckoo land of his own imagination. I think that is the greatest danger here. Andl i think that is the greatest danger here. And i am beginning to think or hope rather that americans buy in large are waking up to it, that he is really not a reality star as it were, anything but. They need someone were, anything but. They need someone at the white house who grapples with the world as it is and doesnt make up stories about his successoi or doesnt make up stories about his successoi 01 other doesnt make up stories about his successor or other ways which are simply not true. He flirts with untruths and i think and i hope americans will see through it. Thomas talking about how the world will respond, i cry three, what about the uk government . There were some stories this week from nick timothy, theresa may puzzle adviser, about how difficult the president was to deal with, will there be relief if it isjoe biden are not donald trump in the white house . think the british establishment would breathe a collective sigh of relief. That would be privately, of couise. Relief. That would be privately, of course. Just because of the unpredictability. That would be the first assault a priority for them. They think that a Joe Biden Administration would be a return to some kind of normality. When it comes to diplomatic relationships. But what you have to remember is that borisjohnson but what you have to remember is that Boris Johnson and but what you have to remember is that borisjohnson and many in but what you have to remember is that Boris Johnson and many in the conservative party have always made quite a lot of the connection between borisjohnson quite a lot of the connection between Boris Johnson and quite a lot of the connection between borisjohnson and donald trump ata between borisjohnson and donald trump at a personal level. You may remember, and it was some months ago, that borisjohnson said donald trump has many, many good qualities. But when it comes to the dealings between the two countries, the uk and us trade deal has gone completely quiet. The British Government and establishment will be thinking of Foreign Policy Going Forward , thinking of Foreign Policy Going Forward, may be a return to some multilateral institutions, the disengagement that they have seen from the donald trump administration, they hope would return underjoe administration, they hope would return under joe biden. Administration, they hope would return underjoe biden. I think there is a cautionary know because we dont know what would happen if joe biden is successful. And it may be he isa joe biden is successful. And it may be he is a little bit more like his predecessor, 0bama, and then when it comes to dealing with europe, where would the uk sit, would they still be theyre still be a bridge between the two, the Henry Kissinger phase, who do i qualify want to speak to europe . Well, Angela Merkel it certainly has been would it necessarily be the uk . Even with a Joe Biden Administration, there is 110 Joe Biden Administration, there is no certainty that the sort of uk and us special relationship as it was once formulated would return. And no guarantee of course, jeffrey, not least because of where the polls are. Douglas brinkley president ial historian this week said the polls are beginning to tighten in key states like the midwest and because of the Electoral College system, that could be enough to lead to the real action of donald trump even if for a second time he didnt win the popular vote. I think everyone was humbled by how wrong the polls were less time although it is important to say that trump didnt lose the popular vote by 3,000,02016. I want to go back to law and order for popular vote by 3,000,02016. I want to go back to law and orderfor a moment. 0ne to go back to law and orderfor a moment. One of the things that is very interesting about the Trump Campaign is this appeal to so called suburban housewives. And when you match that with the law and order campaign, it is perceived to be a veiled racism saying, we have got to protect white suburbs from black people. And what is interesting here is that the polling does suggest that first, the suburban housewives of nixons1968 dont exist in the same way, most women 110w of nixons1968 dont exist in the same way, most women now work. So that kind of leave it to beaver kind of you of suburbs is no longer in existence. But also, the black lives Matter Campaign has changed perceptions and there is an increasing recognition amongst middle class working women, suburban women and americans in general that there is a systemic problem with racism in america that is not going to go away and does need to be acknowledged and addressed. Trump is trying to scare these voters, who have been part of his base, that they need to support him or there will be black housing projects in the suburbs. He is quoting a part of the suburbs. He is quoting a part of the Fair Housing Act completely out of context in saying this, but it is a game to play people off using veiled language. It is not clear it is going to work. Hillary clinton describes racism as the original scent of the us political system and one of those issues that has yet to be successfully confronted at any stage in us history, let me finally on this question, thomas kielinger. How much would be left of the Republican Party if donald trump loses . Republican party if donald trump loses . Because it was very striking during the convention, we had a lot of speeches from members of Donald Trumps family and we had a sense almost that this is a kind of wholly owned subsidiary of trump think andi wholly owned subsidiary of trump think and i wonder what identity the Republican Party would have after donald trump if he loses . The same question we ask ourselves, how much of the conservative party would be left once borisjohnson is gone . The problem is with most countries and most conservative parties, they are so most conservative parties, they are so identified with their reading person, the leading figure, trump in america and johnson in great britain, if ever either of these two or both of them lose, the question is being begged, well, what future is being begged, well, what future is there for the rest of the party . We are going through a time of total unpredictability. The personality cult unpredictability. The personality cult personality unpredictability. The personality cult personality cult that has evolved around trump really spells a disaster. Should he lose to the rest of the party. The Republican Party would virtually have to reinvent itself in order to rid itself of the image of trump and try some middle ground on which to re establish their credentials. The same will go at the end of the day in great britain. So i think the question is very well put, what future for the Republican Party if donald trump loses . I think it would be a party totally in disarray, totally in search of a new rez on tetra, what they want to do in america and there isa they want to do in america and there is a chance for the democrats to ta ke is a chance for the democrats to take their place and establish their owfi take their place and establish their own credentials, which is also difficult because at the moment, we dont really quite know where they will be going under biden a new reason for being. We dont have a clear definition, we are in limbo as to what kind of presidency it is going to be. It looks like we have to reinvent the wheel altogether. What america stands for in the world, but as far as the republicans are concerned, i think without trump, they are a Party Without any sense of being and so they have to re i nve nt sense of being and so they have to reinvent themselves. Itll be back to school for many this week, and back to work for the uks mps. Not, though, forjonathan slater, who was the top Civil Servant at the department of education. On wednesday, he was replaced after the false starts on getting children in england back into school and a fiasco over exam results which led to mass revision of grades. Some students are still waiting. Mr slaterjoins a growing list of senior officialjohnsons government has found wanting. Jo, underthe uk jo, under the uk system, jo, underthe uk system, a model copied by other systems around the world, you have advisers including the senior officials who tell ministers these are the options and this is what might happen. Ministers decide and then ministers have to a nswer to decide and then ministers have to answer to those mps for the decisions they make. And ultimately, they have to stand or fall on them. This seems to be a different approach. Is something changing . Its difficult to sayjust at the moment. There is no doubt that there has been a huge furore, certainly in westminster and all of the areas around it that support the political syste m around it that support the political system about what has happened particularly to jonathan slater. The permanent secretary, as we call him, the senior person in the department for education. Now, the fiasco over exams was on a pretty unprecedented lab scale. But your question about whether the order of things has changed in terms of that age old relationship between a neutral, Nonpartisan Civil Service and ministers of varying political stripes. Governments that come and go. Now, it is absolutely as you say ministers who decide on policy, ministers who decide on policy, ministers give instructions and the Civil Service delivery it. I dont think that has changed. I dont think that has changed. I dont think that has changed. I dont think that is changing. Weather . Remains is on accountability and responsibility. Now, ministers historically, and under other administrations, have complained in the past that only ministers lose their jobs the past that only ministers lose theirjobs when things go wrong because Civil Servants, quite rightly, probably in the may to most people, are not public figures and they are not elected and they are there throughout. In the main. The question is, why is it the top person in the Education Department has lost theirjob when the instruction from ministers was, devise a system, devise an algorithm because exams were cancelled but wont lead to huge grade inflation. I dont want to get too into the micro detail of this. I dont want to get too into the microdetail of this. It didnt need to grade inflation, but it meant pupils got their results rather less sent their teachers had predicted. Exactly, so was the instruction wrong or was the delivery and the wrong . They obviously execution wrong . They obviously decided it was the delivery and execution, the head of the examination qualification board has gone, but the education secretary is still very much there. Interesting phrase that number 10 put out that the Prime Minister has concluded there needed to change in official leadership, not in leadership. So the ministerial leadership is fine, but the Civil Servants, the people doing the advice in delivering the policy, that is where they think it was at want. Right, and many people would say, all right, arguably, that might have been the case and may be someone might have been the case and may be someone in officialdom takes the rap, but surely the person who delivered the instruction. If you wa nt delivered the instruction. If you want to talk about some of the gusset and discussion around this, perhaps it wasnt the idea of Gavin Williamson in the first place and perhaps the instruction came from elsewhere number 10 and therefore, it would be very difficult to blame it would be very difficult to blame it on Gavin Williamson. It comes back to this idea, it is not the first time tension between the Civil Service and a government has taken place. Think about a former education secretary David Blunkett he used to complain endlessly that he used to complain endlessly that he wanted to deliver radical policy and he was thwarted. But that is slightly different from who ultimately loses theirjob if it all goes wrong. It is interesting coronavirus is the undoing for education policy, thomas. We had the situation in the European Commission of course wear for several days, phil hogan, the irish trade commissioner, was resisting efforts to get him to go, he had attended a gulf dinner and had 80 people there and the social restrictions because of coronavirus had been introduced and it proved a huge embarrassment. The Irish Government could get rid of their agricultural minister at the dinner and just sacked him, the Prime Minister and the deputy Prime Minister spent days privately and publicly urging mr hogan to go and he dug in his heels. Eurosceptics would say that is one of the things we didnt like about being in europe, the European Commission was unaccountable and it took a long time for that accountability to kick in. Well, you know, lets get back to the british case. While i admire macro 3 for her expertise in trying to disentangle the rail in the Education Department, we have a simple fact to keep in mind jo. Borisjohnson is a Prime Minister with an 80 plus majority in the house of commons. You can almost do anything he likes with impunity. He can stick to his friends through thick and then even though they have totally disgraced themselves a secretary of education mr williamson has and he did before as he was secretary of defense also. He can afford something, someone said the other day match oh in flexibility. This huge majority in the house of commons gives him a kind of teflon certainty that nothing much can happen to him, he can continue to debase the professional level of government and continue to ride out the storms that may afflict his colleagues in government. Eventually, we are going to have to deal with the problem that Nicolas Soames expressed once when he said, this is the worst cabinet in my lifetime. If borisjohnson continues to completely protect through thick and thin his own political friends in government and exposes someone else in the Civil Service, i think it is going to do huge damage to the Civil Service, but nothing much will follow to his own standing in the country because he has a huge majority. With impunity. It is interesting the issue thomas raises about the majority because he is absolutely right, you can to some extent do what you like when you have a majority of that size, 80 plus. Interestingly, it has not prevented borisjohnson plus. Interestingly, it has not prevented Boris Johnson performing plus. Interestingly, it has not prevented borisjohnson performing a list of u turns on some quite policies. During the coronavirus pandemic, which is going, and also on key domestic issues like the one that we saw over the exams, over gcse and a level results. So despite this, interestingly, much of the opposition has come from within his own party and many of them, from what they call the rental seats, the former labour seats, had persuaded borisjohnson to do former labour seats, had persuaded Boris Johnson to do a u turn which over time has accumulative effect of looking like a government that is not as strong as it should be with a majority like that or arguably, that is the flexibility, the opposite of what tennis was calling it, when they realise the mistake has been made, they turn it round. Jeffrey, might this be a case where an administration comes in in the us system and it appoints the senior officials who will deliver the policy and therefore it gets quite a lot of things done . I noticed for shinzo abe in japan lot of things done . I noticed for shinzo abe injapan on friday, the one concrete achievement people point it it was he had just got control of the upper bureaucracy finally and that could have a chance of tra nsformative finally and that could have a chance of transformative effect on japanese politics, not least in finally promoting some prominent women in the Civil Servants who have been unable to get a look in. women in the Civil Servants who have been unable to get a look in. I am hesitant to use the us system right now as an example of anything stellar in democracy, i think it has been tested in ways it wasnt designed to be tested. I think to go to the point thomas makes, of course there is no election in this country until 2024 and yes, there is a massive majority supporting johnson, but i think what you are seeing is this erosion of his moral authority asa this erosion of his moral authority as a leader. And that can be crippling even if you are not going to be defeated in the house of commons. And i think the u turns we we re commons. And i think the u turns we were just talking about really do undermine his ability. And i think you see it in all sorts of ways. We havent talked about Dominic Cummings, ithink havent talked about Dominic Cummings, i think the behaviour of Dominic Cummings during lockdown really undermined the government has a moral authority to save. He is the chief adviser to the uk Prime Minister. Yes, and in defiance of the rules of lockdown, he went on a private sojourn with his family that was completely out of line with what the government were saying, yet he didnt get punished or suspended. And it was really that sense that there is a rule for us as leaders and then the rest of you should do as we say. And i think that that continues, along with all these u turns and the broken promises about 100,000 tests a day, about the refusal to give school meals to children and then the u turn, all of these things really do undermine the moral authority of the johnson government. And you cant ignore that as a leader. It is one thing to say, im secure, but if the people are not following, it starts to hit the members of your caucus. And at some point, it does threaten your own leadership. Lets spend just a couple of minutes before we leave you today talking about some of the other subjects of concern, some other subjects of concern, some other thoughts have been thrown up by this week. Thomas, you have had a thought about the contest between the systems we have been talking about. Yes, there is a fault in the line at the moment. In other words, the benefits of the German Coalition system. Yes, well, it is interesting because there is a book out at the moment in line with lots of what people say in britain about germany praising their success, there is a great love affair going on with the current success great love affair going on with the current success story. There is a book about what the germans do best and you better. There is one thing that has been overlooked, that germany has Coalition Government as a stable form of managing that is unique in the western world. Most people have a government, parties and opposition parties, and they hit each other over their heads in some disgraceful scenes that we know in westminster and elsewhere and germans dont do it. They save their energy by forging a common policy almost like a National Emergency which, ina almost like a National Emergency which, in a sense, we do have with the covid crisis. They save themselves a lot of sort of disagreements between the two factions, they come together in the same boat. Iwonder though factions, they come together in the same boat. I wonder though over the long term weather that is good for democracy, whether you suspend the traditional game of opposition opposing the government and put them all like two elephants in the same sort of cage as it were and make up. It helps germany. It has really created stability in a sense, but i wonder to what extent it can be transported to other sort of democracies. And i wish we would discuss that more, how certain countries live in a different sort of world of systemic politics from others. And that would help understand better the german success story, i believe. Questions of history been asked by some of those big parties in germany about what the effect has been on their level of support with the small parties that have started to lead them. Jeffrey can make you have travelled back to canada to visit family and you have come back to the uk so you have had a sense of the changing attitudes to the pandemic and to the restrictions being imposed. Yes, i am just finishing my uk quarantine now and i was in canada for five weeks. It is really striking the cultural difference and attitudes towards currency and the coronavirus in canada and in the uk. The consistent message from the Prime Minister in canada, the fact he wore a mask very early on, isolated himself early on when he was sick, i dont like wearing masks. In the uk, iam dont like wearing masks. In the uk, i am always torn about it. In canada, everyone does it, you go into a supermarket and they wash the handles of the body when you return it. There is a sense of common, there is a common enemy out there, we are all coming together and no one that i encountered as i travelled around the country was rebelling. I mean, clearly, there are people who are not following, but the cultural difference is really profound. 0ne but the cultural difference is really profound. One of the things that will come out of this when it is over is that we will see how different cultural attitudes, different cultural attitudes, Different National leadership messaging affected the epidemiological outcome, that is the number of deaths, the number of infections. And how it spread. The kind of patchwork here, the kind of on again and off again travel rules, masks on and masks off rules really confused people. And i think they are not helping. It is true that you have to be flexible, but in canada, everybody in the country has to go through a two week quarantine, it is very clear and the police check up on you. There are phone calls and some people and so people abide. Picking up on that have Point Committee had thought about how different the travel experiences and our commitment to the environment as a result of coming out of lockdown, jo. Picking up on some of the points made by jeffrey jo. Picking up on some of the points made byjeffrey on culture and the differences, i made byjeffrey on culture and the differences, lam interested made byjeffrey on culture and the differences, i am interested to see whether or not people puzzlement habits that change during lockdown partly because they had to and partly because they had to and partly because they had to and partly because we were not travelling to work and many people are still not travelling to work and skills are not taking place, the environment in a general broad sensing to improve. People talked about birdsong, fewer planes, less pollution, is that going to be sustained . We will see extinction rebelling protests again in cities asa reminder, rebelling protests again in cities as a reminder, timely many people think, that if everyone goes back if not immediately, but eventually, to their old habits, then the environment will suffer. Extinction rebelling. Jo coburn, thomas kielinger, Jeffrey Kofman. Thank you for speaking to us. Thats it for dateline london for this week. Were back next week, at the same time. Goodbye. Hello, it really wasnt too bad a start to what, for many, is the holiday weekend, of course. Certainly out towards the western side of the british isles, under the influence of a big area of high pressure, things were looking really pretty decent. Its a bit of a different story out towards the east where it was so very wet across parts yesterday, a couple of inches of rain in scarborough for example. This weekend, a windy start east, and we will come back to that in a second. It will be fairly cool by day and by night, but it will be mainly dry. I have to emphasise mainly dry, because the low pressure that brought so much in the way of rain in the past couple days, and those heavy showers, is still not a million miles away from us and you will see that those eastern areas are still pretty close to the influence of that low. Increasing amounts of cloud will eventually drag some rain down into these eastern shores, eastern side of the pennines, and then down through the east midlands, on towards east anglia and the south east through the afternoon. Ever present will be the strength of the winds. Some of those exposed eastern coasts, 40 50 miles per hour, and the breeze still there to be had, down through the irish sea as well, where many Western Areas a passing shower, but a lot of dry weather. The wind is coming from the north, so it is not going to be warm. 12 18 or so. 0nwards, onwards, comes that cloud and rain into the early part of the evening, eventually getting down towards sussex and to kent as well, but at least the combination of the breeze and the cloud will keep the temperatures up. Elsewhere, it is going to be a really chilly night for the time of year, but at least that then becomes a really sparkling morning to start your sunday. The wind still a feature here, maybe some cloud and the odd spot of rain to get away from kent and essex, but that clears away and then that is a pretty decent day. Again, a spotting of showers, not much more than that, but again, despite the fact that the wind is easing, still only on the thermometers 12 to about 18 degrees, and here is the thing we do it all over again as we go from sunday night, under the influence of the big area of high pressure. So not very much in the way of breeze, not very much in the way of cloud, so its another chilly start, but at least it is a gloriously sunny day. I think the cloud really will develop through the course of the day and it will cloud over, certainly as the front approaches northern ireland, but many areas will stay dry. But again, despite all the sunshine, it wont be overly warm. Good afternoon. Chadwick boseman the actor who played black panther in the marvel films has died from colon cancer at the age of 43. He didnt publicise his diagnosis four years ago and continued to work throughout his treatment. Among those paying tribute, democratic Vice President ial candidate kamala harris, who attended the same university as boseman. She tweeted that she was heartbroken. Paul hawkins reports. His death will come as a shock to many. Chadwick boseman never spoke publicly about his four year battle with colon cancer, continuing to film movies