Protests across france Over Pension Reform plans which include raising the Retirement Age to 64. Now its time for breaking the county lines. Its every parents nightmare. He was climbing out the windows every night. He was climbing out the windows every night. They had him selling crack and heroin. Young people lured into a world of drugs, gangs and violence. He was beaten badly. To see your childs face twice the size of what it should be, no mother should see. There are calls for a change in the law. To make it a specific offence to deal to children under 16. But are they criminals or victims . If children are being exploited and coerced, the law would not criminalise them in those circumstances. Today we investigate what is being done to break the county lines. It is something you might have read or heard about on the news, county lines is defined as grooming by criminals to force teenagers into drug dealing and other activity. Drugs are often transported away from the big cities to smaller towns and rural areas by children and vulnerable people. The county line is the mobile phone used to take the orders. Gemma has been looking at this and speaking to some of the families involved. What have they been seeing . I have spent several months talking to charities and families about these children who are exploited and controlled by the county lines drug gangs. For example, in some cases when a child is talking to a social worker, gang members can listen in via the childs mobile phone. So, Real Control Over who the child is talking to and what they are saying. But the thing that really surprised me was just how quickly young people can get embroiled in this world of drugs and gangs, as this mum, speaking anonymously, can explain. He was a happy child, on the go, 100 miles power, cheeky chirpy, who went into year 11 and knuckled down. He was then ready to do his exams. Until lockdown came in march. And then my whole world fell apart. Lockdown, he was supposed to be in, wasnt in, was going out, coming home at all hours, wouldnt answer my calls. He had just been absent from the home, not telling me where he was, secretive, i suspected things were going on in the home, i would find little bits of weed and little bags. He was arrested, which was the first time that the police came to the home. There were things in the house that i wasnt happy about. I did get rid of them. He came back from the police station, asked me where these things were, i said id put them in the skip. The fear in his face was horrendous. It was alarm bells to me, something is not good. The Police Actually gave the debt for him because they searched his bedroom, arrested him out and about, take all the drugs of him, they then belonged to this perpetrator and they needed the money or the drugs back. He was beaten, badly. Which is a trauma that he is now living through. He came home and hid himself away. Eventually he said, this is what you get by owning money. To see your childs face twice the size of what it should be, no mother should see. And that is when i asked for some help. Didnt really get any help. A few weeks went by. I thought if he went into care, he would be looked after, safely. He was then placed in a contained flat in the middle of where he was being exploited from. No supervision. No protection, really. No money, you know, no benefits or anything. And was there for four months, five months. When he was in there, did the exploitation continue . Absolutely, yeah. He was still selling drugs. That is how he was funding living. I look back and i think, is it tough love, have i given him tough love, did he have to hit rock bottom before he got better . Just one phone call to him and i said, stop doing what youre doing and come home. If you dont, stop phoning me. And he came home, two days later. So he was back home, but the repercussions have continued, havent they . With the police and the cases against him, he should be treated as a victim, but that doesnt seem to be happening in the police respect. He has lost a couple ofjobs. He is suffering. He is not the boy of 11 or 12. Hopefully we will get him back fully. A very powerful account there from that mum. Linda dawson is the ceo of the charity pace child of exploitation. Many parents will be watching the programme and might think that couldnt happen to them, what do you say . It could, unfortunately. Our work sees families affected by exploitation coming from every community and every background. So, how do you break that cycle . How do you stop kids becoming coerced by the drug gangs . It needs multifaceted approach, and part of that needs a National Strategy that looks at the laws that are needed to bring charges to those that are responsible for these crimes. That specifically make an offence of child criminal exploitation and the subsequent harms that come from that. So you say the law needs to change. More needs to change, how . Currently we are seeing it tacked on to other laws, drug laws and the fact that the exploitation may be a aggravating feature, what we need to see is child criminal exploitation is made a law within itself that come from not that come and subsequent harms, so for instance, concealment of drugs is a real issue and real factor that we see in county lines. By concealment we mean people are forcing, coercing or tricking children to insert drugs into their bodies to travel to different locations. Forcing the drugs into their bodies . Matrixed the children to do it themselves. In some instances trick the children to do it themselves. In some instances we see offenders grooming and exploiting children, and it is difficult to prosecute those offenders because there is no specific offence . The Legal Framework isnt there, it gives too many grey areas for these offences to be charged, and we dont need it to be an aggregated aggravating factor, we need it to be a stand alone offence to give the consequences needed. Well, the consequences needed. We are going to hear fr another well, we are going to hearfrom another mum now again speaking anonymously. She and herfamily another mum now again speaking anonymously. She and her family were forced to move away from their home to escape the gangs. But what we are going to find out is that it was far from a perfect solution. We had to leave it to private rented property due to benefit cuts, due to the benefit cap, we ended up being moved to a very rough area out of private. Rough area. Had to go to a new school which is in the middle of two different gangs. A friend of his got stabbed while they were there, and because his friend used to be in a gang, they associated him with the gang and they put like he was then associated so they wanted to stab him. Pre teen at the time. And i think he knew then that he had to make the choice of being on his own orjoining the gang for protection. I noticed his friends got a lot older, he was always going around with older lads, but this was dramatically older. Very difficult to know where he was, keep tabs on him. Thejob i had, i went to bed early, i had other children, i thought, well done, he is going to bed, so early. It turned out that he was actually climbing out the windows on a night. They had him selling crack and heroin. One of my children had come in and wanted to get their supper and they said that the big grother� s friends were in the kitchen and there was branches everywhere. I didnt understand at the time but when i walked in there were some very tall older teens to early 20s, and there were stalks of Skunk Cannabis all over my kitchen. They had obviouslyjust cropped it and they were bagging it up in my kitchen. Sorting it all out. I know went in i was quite shocked, my reaction was what do you think youre doing . They all ignored me. Nobody lifted an eyebrow. I thought that me cursing and my tone would have made them walk out, my son just looked and said, dont start. And i had to back out of the room. And thats when i realised things were getting really bad. I was phoning social services, and i was finding weapons as well, machetes, knives, getting caught with knives at school, i was taking them to the police station. I went to the police and said, can you give me any advice . And they couldnt. They wouldnt put him in a cell. Were you able to talk to other mums . Not really, because you felt ashamed and embarrassed that you couldnt protect your children and that you couldnt stop what was going on. I tried my best, to get any outside help, different gang teams coming in, but all of them required my son to work with them, which he didnt want to do. How did you get him out . I was told i couldnt go into the nearby towns or cities because it was so easy to get there via one bus, so there would be no point, i had to move miles away. The councils have no understanding whatsoever. When i went down, i was told on more than one occasion to go back to where i come from. It is crucial that changes. If we have nowhere to go as families and nowhere to take our children, far away, we will never be able to break that chain and that bond between victim and gang. Alison is West Yorkshires deputy mayor for crime and policing. We saw there a family had to leave their home to escape the gangs, should that be happening . It sounds like in that case the gangs have won. It should not be happening, family should be able to live freely, securely, safely in West Yorkshire. But we know unfortunately that crime and Serious Organised Crime is rising, we know in West Yorkshire, like many other metropolitan places, county lines, the drug gangs, the organised crime groups are here, trying to take over our communities and we have to stop them. Are there no go areas in West Yorkshire right now, areas where the drug gangs have taken over . I suspect that some people are feeling that, whether West Yorkshire police would say that is a different matter. We know that West Yorkshire police have mapped 101 different Serious Organised Crime areas, threats in West Yorkshire, and we know that there are organised crime groups operating across leeds, bradford and kirklees, we know that because we have a Programme Provision which works across all our partners to map those threats, to disrupt those threats, were winning, we are working together to support all of those different parts. Really, you think the police are winning . I think we are winning because we are taking millions of pounds of drugs out of the circulation, we are just in the last six month taking £1. 5 million that we found from drug runners, we are using that money to invest back in our communities through the proceeds of crime. The people of West Yorkshire are winning and we have to win, because otherwise the future is bleak. Do you think young people who are coerced into joining county lines drug gangs should be criminalised . No, not at all. And there are mechanisms through the modern slavery legislation to protect young people who are being criminalised, there is a National Referral mechanism not being used, we need to do more to raise awareness of it. I just would have some families might feel in a case where drugs have been supplied by another young person, treating them as a victim rather than a criminal might suggest that justice hasnt been done. There are lots of children being exploited through fear, through violence, threats to their widerfamily members, who are doing terrible things that they would not do without those older Crime Members forcing them to do it. I dont think they should be criminalised for that. We know that from 2010, Youth Services have been decimated, i was a council for many years, and leeds, the first thing we called was our Youth Services, so did every other local Authority Come out we now have lots of academies which are brilliant in their selves, but they dont talk to the local authority, so it is much more difficult to bring those agencies together because they are part of the solution. Some interesting points made there. We will put some of those to the Police Minister who will hear from in a moment. Thank you for speaking to us today. The story of kerry and tammy, our last two mothers in this programme, kerrys daughter died after taking drugs supplied to her by tammys son. Both are calling for politicians to take a closer look at the laws surrounding this, as Richard Edwards reports. It has been four years this year. It still feels like it happened yesterday. Flowers in the car park. This is where 15 year old leah hayes was found on saturday. Police were called after reports a young woman had collapsed. Two North Yorkshire mums who built an unlikely friendship from a terrible tragedy. Penny roberts and Tammy Kirkwood campaigned side by side to raise awareness of the risk of drugs after tammys son helped supply the mdma which killed tammys daughter. They now working on separate campaigns but want the same outcome, to get better protection for the victims of county lines gangs. Most of the laws are not with the times, they were made 50, 60, 70 years ago when life is so much different. Just set up for us the specific law change you want to see. What do you want to see . To make it a specific offence to deal to children under 16. It sounds really simple and it sounds like it could already be law but it is not. I dont think the politicians understand what modern slavery is, i know they had a ten year plan but when you read it, there is nothing in there protecting our children that were being exploited. He talked about helping the drug users and everybody else but he didnt talk about protecting our children. We are in a crisis. As we are in the middle we are in a crisis. As we are in the middle of we are in a crisis. As we are in the middle of that we are in a crisis. As we are in the middle of that crisis we are in a crisis. As we are in the middle of that crisis financially middle of that crisis financially store middle of that crisis financially store our middle of that crisis financially store our children, middle of that crisis financially store our children, because i middle of that crisis financially. Store our children, because even though store our children, because even though mum store our children, because even though mum and store our children, because even though mum and dad store our children, because even though mum and dad are store our children, because even though mum and dad are sayingl store our children, because even though mum and dad are saying they need help though mum and dad are saying they need help from though mum and dad are saying they need help from bills, though mum and dad are saying they need help from bills, they though mum and dad are saying they need help from bills, they see need help from bills, they see their mum need help from bills, they see their mum not need help from bills, they see their mum not getting need help from bills, they see their mum not getting the need help from bills, they see their mum not getting the things need help from bills, they see their mum not getting the things that. Need help from bills, they see their. Mum not getting the things that used to gel mum not getting the things that used to gel things mum not getting the things that used to gel things are mum not getting the things that used to get. Things are harder mum not getting the things that used to get. Things are harder home. To get. Things are harder home. So he is to get. Things are harder home. So he is hot to get. Things are harder home. So he is not thinking to get. Things are harder home. So he is not thinking about to get. Things are harder home. So he is not thinking about the to get. Things are harder home. So he is not thinking about the biggerl he is not thinking about the Bigger Picture he is not thinking about the Bigger Picture of he is not thinking about the Bigger Picture of whats he is not thinking about the Bigger Picture of whats going he is not thinking about the Bigger Picture of whats going on he is not thinking about the Bigger Picture of whats going on with he is not thinking about the Bigger Picture of whats going on with our childreh picture of whats going on with our childreh he picture of whats going on with our children. He has picture of whats going on with our children. He has not picture of whats going on with our children. He has not send picture of whats going on with our children. He has not send one picture of whats going on with ouri children. He has not send one word about children. He has not send one word about drugs children. He has not send one word about drugs that children. He has not send one word about drugs that i children. He has not send one word about drugs that i have children. He has not send one word about drugs that i have listened children. He has not send one word about drugs that i have listened toi about drugs that i have listened to at all about drugs that i have listened to at all or about drugs that i have listened to at all or exploitation. I met rishi sunak but since we met, i have had nothing back from him. Kevin believes in the law and has took it his wing. He is not my mp, he is of a close town, so can we have the support from rishi sunak . Kerry roberts ending that report by Richard Edwards. The chair of the commission on young lives, former childrens commissioner for england, what needs to happen to prevent another tragedy like this . First and foremost, we need politicians, Government Ministers and the Prime Minister to see this as a national emergency. We are looking at Tens Of Thousands of children who are falling through the gaps in services, who are being exploited by criminals in plain sight, in front of us in our cities, in our towns and around the country. Families are desperate to get help but there are so few places for them to go. It needs to have the laws behind it, the framework of law behind it in legislation. We need government to be able to get behind this to accept that this is a national emergency, to get to the point where they are as agile and determined as the criminals are at the moment to exploit our children. Are you saying that is not happening . There was a big strategy under borisjohnson . Yes, he said he wanted to bite the heads of the county lines snake. It was boosted by the pandemic, cost of living crisis is adding to it, and we have a government that doesnt have either the leadership or the coordination about theirs. It is unclear which Secretary Of State is responsible for the protection of our children. It is unclear where this fits with government policy, and we dont have leadership from the top. I want the Prime Minister to see what is happening, just as David Cameron did with child Sexual Exportation nearly a decade ago. That is the level of intervention we need. Why are so many kids being coerced into drug gangs right now . Why is this happening . The drug gangs want them, they are commodities, they are cheap for them and they deliver a really important part of their business. They take all the risk, we have seen that the age of kids involved in this is getting lower and lower. We found 13 and 14 year olds managing the county lines now, notjust doing the dreadful workaround it, but managing it. That is something that of course is part of a strategy by these ruthless criminals. First of all the people want them and are constantly recruiting, and then you have children who are often falling outside school, often vulnerable in different ways. Theyjust dont have the protection around them. Those services are stretched to their limits, they cannot intervene to the level they need to support their families and children. Should there be tougher punishments for those who Deal Drugs To Under 16s . Of course, they should be both tougher punishment and better support for those kids, we have to do this from both sides. We have to be tough on criminals that exploit children, it has to start, we have to change the scales. Right now it is easy for the criminals to get children, we have to start fighting back and making it much more difficult. At the same time, we need to get to those kids and support and inspire them to stop it happening. Thank you. I have been speaking to the policing minister, and i asked him that in many cases whether children who have been groomed into drug gangs should be treated as victims or criminals . I think it depends on the fact of the case but if someone is aggressively coerced into carrying drugs, they will not be considered a criminal in that context. Each case is looked at on individual merit. Clearly where children are being exploited and coerced, the law would not criminalise them in those circumstances. Do you support the law, being proposed by North Yorkshire mum kerry roberts, that would make it a specific offence to Deal Drugs To Under 16s . Supplying drugs to children, people under 16, is a particularly heinous and despicable crime, i say that as a father myself. Under the 2020 Sentencing Act, it is already an aggravating factor if the person being supplied drugs is a child, if they are under 16, and that means a longer sentence for the person dealing drugs than if the person receiving drugs was over 16, that is in law already. I know my colleague in parliament has been raising this tragic case, so were looking at it carefully butjust to reassure your viewers, under the Sentencing Act you already get a longer sentence because of the aggravating nature of supplying drugs to a child under 16. We have heard alarming claims about young people transporting drugs in their bodies, do you think the people who force them to do that should face tougher sentences . That is an absolutely despicable form of abuse against children, disgusting, the worst possible form of exportation. That is something i am definitely prepared to look at. Clearly, if someone is convicted of doing this, it is a form of assault. What you have described would attract a severe sentence, it would be considered the most serious end of that kind of assault. I want to make sure where people do this to children, they get the highest possible sentences. If we need to do more to make sure those sentences are as high as possible, we will. Is the cost of living crisis playing a part when it comes to young people being recruited into drug gangs . No, i dont think so, the link between the economy and drug addiction or drug dealing isnt well established. Thankfully we have historically very low levels of unemployment, it is halved since the conservatives came to office, pretty much at a 50 year low. Former childrens commissioner clearly disagrees, she believes it is a factor. Wider Economic Conditions in poverty are slightly different questions, we are focused on getting people out of poverty, benefits are going up substantially in a couple of months time, the National Minimum wage is going up as well, we are very keen to make sure where children are at risk they are properly safeguarded, we are working with local authorities and with charities to actively identify children who are at risk so they can be properly looked after. That is a really important element of this whole issue. That was the policing minister. Gemma is here for a final thought. A hint perhaps that the government might be looking at a change in policy. Yes, clearly there is an agreement that County Line Drug gangs are something that need to be tackled. The question as ever is how, and it is something the government have strategies for, spending millions of pounds in trying to tackle it, as we have heard. Labour would have a different strategy and charities, as we heard, something more as well. But i think right now, if you are a parent and you are going through this, it still remains something that is very bewildering and very frightening. It is. Thank you. This is a huge issue which we will return to, but if you are impacted by any of the subjects raised today and in need of support, you can find organisations which can offer advice at the bbc action line. You have been watching breaking the county lines, we are back next week, goodbye. Hello. Saturday was pretty cloudy. Sunshine in the northeast of scotland and england. Today we are promising to get a bit more sunshine thanks to more breeze, particularly in the north and west of the country. Further east it will stay rather gray and cloudy. High pressure Still Holding on three part two of the weekend and indeed it will do until the start of a new week as well, this Milder Airfrom the the start of a new week as well, this milder air from the south. The start of a new week as well, this Milder Airfrom the south. We start off rather cloudy, a little bit of mist around two but the clouds will start to break up in the north and west of the country the breeze picks up and breaks up the clouds. Scotland, parts of england, northern and wales tend to stay cloudy across eastern england. Its going to be mild, 12 and 13 and the sunnier spots. A similar picture as we head through monday and tuesday. Some sunshine could be quite foggy in the southeast on tuesday morning. From wednesday on which think to start to turn more unsettled with the chance of some rain. This is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. More than 28,000 people are now known to have died after mondays earthquakes in turkey and syria, with the death toll likely to more than double, says the un. Visiting the region, the uns aid chief described the massive earthquakes as the worst Natural Disaster to hit the middle east in a century. 15 people have been arrested following clashes with Police Outside a hotel providing refuge for Asylum Seekers on merseyside in northwest england. Hundreds of thousands of people are protesting across france Over Pension Reform plans which include raising the Retirement Age from 62 to 64