Mr Salvini who's the leader of the far right league told supporters that illegal immigrants should start packing their bags Judy in Bedford reports on the campaign trail that is solving the made immigration his top priority and now he's in government he wants to demonstrate that he will deliver he's going to Sicily with the message that many fewer migrants will be allowed to land in Italy and that many of those already in the country may well be asked to leave he said Rome would try to broker a new agreements with the countries from where the migrants come. But both Italy and Europe have already sought such deals to little effect the u.s. Treasury secretary Steve minutia in has told his g 7 counterparts that President Trump address their concerns about import tariffs at next week's summit in Canada but Mr Minissha rejected their claims that Washington was circumventing world trade rules he said the u.s. Would still lead the global economy there was a unanimous consensus that they do have that concern and I think the concern is not these terrorists per se but I think their concern is obviously many of them have put on or threatening reciprocal tariffs and then perhaps what the u.s. Reaction so I think the trade is a very important issue and I think you should know the president and I and others in the administration are very focused on this China's state news agency has warned that all trade talks between Beijing and Washington will be void if the United States introduces trade sanctions in a statement released after the conclusion of talks between the Chinese Vice Premier you and the u.s. Commerce secretary Wilbur Ross said China was willing to increase imports from many countries including the United States as Britain marks the 1st anniversary of the attacks on London Bridge in which 8 people died the government is warning that the threat to the country from Islam is terrorism could increase over the next 2 years it's to review counterterrorism strategies involving the security service and my 5 here's Mark low bill the government wants to do more to catch and punish terrorists and also find out more about those people with known links to terrorist organizations by sharing more data they want m I 5 to declassify more of their facial it has on the 3000 people it's currently looking into those people of interest that they're investigating as well as 20000 people that I have investigated in the past and may pose a threat in the future police in Indian easier have arrested 3 former students who are accused of planning terror attacks from the grounds of their former university campus in the Indonesian city of Peckham Baru your forces said the men had been planning to bomb regional parliamentary buildings. Well news from the b.b.c. Israel has attacked numerous targets in the Gaza Strip in retaliation for Palestinian rocket fire on southern Israel a statement from the Israeli military said they'd struck 2 sites where arms were made and stored as well as a military compound the i.d.f. Also accused the militant group a mass of mounting various terror activities over the weekend in addition to launching 2 rockets the people of Slovenia going to the polls to elect a new parliament $25.00 parties are taking part but it's expected that the anti immigrant S.T.'s will take the most votes here's our Balkans correspondent guided on a record economic growth is generally good news for incumbent Prime Ministers but merely said our is bracing for the worst 4 years ago the softly spoken law professor was an antidote to a discredited political elite who'd taken Slovenia to the brink of bankruptcy but now the complaint is that he's too soft and the country needs a firmer hand the right winger young as young says he fits the bill having 20 served as prime minister but former comedian Marian shot at says he can offer Slovenia a fresh start plus the political experience from 8 years as a city mayor and president of the Philippines Rodrigo deter tears told the un special rapporteur on judicial independence that he could as Mr deter to put it go to hell the rapporteurs Diego Garcia San had on Friday expressed concern at the State of the Philippine judiciary after the chief justice Mario Lord to surrender was ousted president to Turkey had openly called her the enemy Mr Garcia say and said this was a vicious attack on the judiciary but Mr Du Tertius often known for his less than parliamentary language said he did not think that the reporter was special I do not think it up what daughter I don't know him not being with you know better I don't think going to what then. That's the latest b.b.c. News. It's 6 minutes past 7 g.m.t. Welcome to Weekend from the b.b.c. World Service with me Julie Morgan in the last half hour of the program we'll have a look at the immigration policy of Italy's new government we'll discuss the future of Western foreign aid to Africa and ahead of the World Cup account to come up with teams that do not represent a state my 2 guests this morning to hear both author and broadcaster with a particular focus on sports and Claire Fox director of the Academy of ideas here the World Cup not the one we're going to talk about in 20 minutes but the one in Russia who's going to win I think the 2 countries I fancy would win and they might be in the final depending on how the the. Think Progress is would be Germany and Japan I can't see the competitions the couple living in Japan give me in Spain I'm sorry so you know you have the right there for me in Spain sorry about that the departed not even there but I can see the holders of the competition and Germany being easily beaten and Spain who won it twice I think will be a threat South American teams I don't think so I think London Messi is there's never won the World card but somehow London Messi doesn't quite pull it off I didn't you know he's he's perhaps a great player who may have to retire without a World Cup in Brazil Neymar the last time they played in their own country I think their performances were shocking and I'm not sure how far the team has progressed we will see in the coming weeks clear I know you're going to attend an event on identity politics soon and yes I well I mean identity politics where you you put your. Ethnic or gender or cultural identity above all things as the determining factor of both who you are and what you think what you think and I think that if I get anxious about the phrase you know I find that offensive There's nothing worse than when people say as a woman I find that offensive or as a Muslim I've been offensive or you know it kind of adds this point it's not so much what you say now as he says it he's given permission to say anyway there's an event at the Danish embassy which I'm chairing which is an identity in the arts and I think that increasingly the concept of kind of universal art is a universal value is being kind of slightly replaced by anxiety around identity and whether we should have you know. Even National Arts Movement local arts movements who's allowed to produce art whether it's authentic for example in terms of cultural appropriation for somebody to write and write a novel that Magin the lives of others you know have would you believe sensitivity readers that publishes books and all of the same books that say this or there is a written about somebody his from a different ethnicity or background themselves can you check is accurate which it seems to me to be the death of the novel the death of imagination the death of all literature and is disastrous because what are they arguing that's clear minutes past 7 g.m.t. We go Italy now because as you will know if you've been listening over the past week the country has a new government and today it's pushing forward on one of its top Policy Priorities an attempt to dramatically bring down the number of migrants arriving in the country but a.s.l. Vini who as well as being leader of the league which makes up one half of the new governing coalition is also serving as Italy's new interior minister yesterday at a rally he told supporters a good time is for illegals is over time to pack your bags Well today he's following up with a visit to the island of Sicily a place where many migrants be making the trip from various countries of North Africa Zenda nini is an Italian journalist specializing in migration and the politics in the Mediterranean and he's on the line live Jacko Welcome to the program. Good morning good Montreaux this list is it possible to put a figure on the number of migrants who are still trying to make their way to Italy where the main thing which is quite relevant Nutri think about Sylviane is from to try yesterday is that actually had a number of migrants who landed in it's day in 2018 it's been marked by a sharp decrease we had to have now in the last 5 months. Around the 2 teen 1000 people. Arriving treaty trauma not Africa which means it Tunisia and Libya station and this is a huge decrease if we compare it to the total number of last year's last year we had $120000.00 people arriving India's sex account sentiment surrender and so why has that number come down so much. Well there's a number of reasons of course the. Policy is by the previews interim Enos to remote community played an important role and there were voices a mediumistic geisha last year to a summit speaking about an agreement between each 3 and some a Libyan militias war try 1000000 euros which one of a confirmed by the government but there is some kind of. Evidence that this is this was not then on the other side e.t.a. Became more and more involved included a rescue of faults by the lead young Costa got in the last year also thanks to the . Politics of the previous government so I mean that some of the. Main thing that Mr Assad Dini the current prime minister. Say's it will do we're already done. But the previous government somehow in which case let's have a look at what this new combined 5 Star Movement and league want to do about this issue what are they putting forward what will they what will they change in policy terms. Well as you said one of. The thing that the league not to stay she would still be in it. Proclaimed 2 or Qana is patrician to forced room but ration the petition of big number off to regret my gran's water leaching neutrally and his number were to top to 500000 people. Of course there was an information from Korea to the last one of the main Italian newspaper that the 1st meeting. Of the prime minister reads is functional areas in the minister are not tried evening. Was a quite I mean come back to reality for 3 months because some of the main functionaries they hired functionaries of the minister told to Mr Sylvie any in this closed meeting that it's not so easy actually to move through that area at my gran's And in terms of the appetite amongst the Italian people for a significant change here does the election result confirm that there is that strong appetite. We can see some how that there is this kind of up to and. But there's also a need for for a change and the fact that actually. Government social child stars and league Nadda is continuing to present himself as the government of change despite some how we can say that some of the ministers are already known people from the. Trauma university or a high professional Really. So they don't really represent. A huge change. There's an emphasis on this and that relates into migration. Well there isn't a deal steal that was much. Used as a propaganda baby but still being especially that there's an invasion that we have to stop so to try on the other side he said I want to stop the N.G.O.s that are operating independent a rescue operation that's she Thank you very much for coming on jackhammers andone Italian journalist who specializes in migration in the politics in the Mediterranean just a quick thought from you both I mean clear we touch briefly on on populism earlier on in the program on this specific issue it's interesting to hear the figures versus the policies and the concern I think as a. Result on end that attention in Italy by the way because it doesn't seem to me that the 5 Star Movement particularly gone in on the immigration one does not have particularly not in terms of a coalition so I think it's important to note that the big op surgeon in Italian politics is not necessarily been led by the immigration issue even though this might be what the one side with the league is pushing That's a fair thing to say so one of the things that I just get answers about is that I think that populism is a way of disparaging and the legitimizing popular political change and so I don't want to just kind of maul into that. I think however some of the anti immigration rhetoric is undoubtedly playing on people's fears in a way that I completely disagree with me here well migration is a problem not just we're too labored for Europe and of course this and the e.u. Hasn't meaningfully dealt with has meaningfully and also that I think the European nations haven't looked at it because this I mean Europe has been any exporting country not an importing country in such large numbers that it happened not as a result of a war or anything like that and how it copes with it and because of the nature of the e.u. And so on Italy I think has has borne the brunt of it and one doesn't have to consider the people who say so many people are coming as racists or anything like that I think that's a very simplistic argument and one should look at why these people feel that their country is changing now when it comes to foreign aid last year was a good year for Africa according to the o.e.c.d. Bilateral aid to Africa rose by 3 percent to $29000000000.00 us dollars but was it effective the perennial problem with foreign aid is that it's much easier to measure how much money is given than it is to measure the benefit that comes from it there are voices in the West who challenge the concept of aid altogether and there are discussions on how to ensure that when money is given it works as intended or Tom Youngs book neither devil nor child attempts to rethink the concept of aid I have the book and we also have the author welcome Tom good to see you nice to be here what is wrong do you say with the current approach I suppose 2 things wrong with it one is that it doesn't work so we could add up the number that you've just given to the number since the 1960 s. And we would get to trillions of dollars and even the most optimistic economists if over this sort of thing have very severe course of views about its effects the 2nd argument I push a bit more in the book is it sanctions a whole series of essentially contemptuous. Attitudes assumptions that Africa must do what we do. Justifies all kinds of N.G.O.s genders. Which are not accountable either to Africans or indeed to us and that sanctions in effect notions of moral superiority which are not one iota dissimilar from the colonial times and thirdly I make some suggestions as an alternate route what I want to come on to those in a moment and happily will bring me here in Clarion as well going back to your Doesn't Work point how does that tally with the numbers that are I think widely acknowledged of people who have been lifted out of what's described as real poverty in the African continent over the last decade Well there's lots of arguments about that Africa does experience quite high rates of population growth so even if you lift people out of poverty you've still got the basic but has a played no part in that lifting out of the question is whether lifting people out of poverty is actually a solution to the real problem it's not that you can't find examples of people better off than they were but the fact of the matter is that large numbers of African countries have huge populations living on the low dollar a day poverty and the contemptuous attitudes Yes you referred to. Does that boil down to people in the West basically saying do it our way or you won't get the money. That particular sort of format was very popular in the ninety's and has been to some extent abandoned so it's much more implicit rather than exploited and it's part of the attitudes of Western States and international organizations which is one thing and they as Jews West and which is rather different than Joe's often have their own particular are too logical agendas whatever I might be usually cashed out in some form of human rights western states now talk a language of cooperation and mutual accountability and Saucerful But the fact of the matter is that. The one who pays the piper calls the Chief let me bring some force in from across the desk here maybe an observation or question to top. Aid when it started you know after the colonial regimes ended was a meant to help trade was meant to help build up trade with aid was also used in the interment of state policy to promote one country's product and so on I mean one could justify aid on the basis that it increases trade it increases Well it increases the country's influence but has to have actually read it all affected trade. I don't actually think it was used to promote trade toll really I think in part with what was said there was what was said. But I think in part it was there's always a sort of strategic element that I think that's over and for sized I think by and large it was on the terms that it described it was supposed to be helpful which is why so much of the agenda is driven by poverty because what is presented to a Western audience is usually impoverished children and then the moral messages you must give and you're giving will fix this. I'm really looking forward to reading reading the book and but I mean I remember one time big gathering of time and Geos aid organizations in this country where they were very clear that the agenda was going to. Big domestic violence and sexual assault in international community and this kind of went on everybody saying huge amounts of money were going to they were setting up kind of domestic violence units where families were moving into the lead and staying their husbands would be to know people to all sorts of things so I've always got very dubious I did want to ask you when the thing big charity and began Geos is somehow going to suffer because of some of the me too stuff with that because that kind of hypocrisy seems of come out a bit more you know like that some of that I'm not going to get into the particulars but then take a bit of a kicking recently because that standards of yes been that's a little I don't talk about that in the book and I. In a sense I don't want to deny the moral integrity of those involved in a project and I think in a rather harsh to put it this way but that's a red herring and I was there are people who have a stand have done things I shouldn't have done but I don't actually think that's what the aid business is about most people it seems to me and N.G.O.s like most people for example in cloning or times went to Africa because they thought they were doing some good and that's really useful What is the better way to approach this issue do you argue Ok the argument in the sort of 2nd half of the book is that given the economists can't agree amongst themselves for at least several decades. The thing that we can common sense sickly agrees the problem Africa has infrastructure that is essentially transport communications and electricity generation if you look at any of the numbers the situation is much worse in that continent anywhere. And what we should do and we should do it on the basis of realism and consideration of interests not on the basis of special pleading is put effort into supporting infrastructure development and is that not something China is already doing that is something China is already doing I think in many ways that's a model for really yes so I don't it doesn't mean that you put less money in it's just about where you put it and and how you see it bent Yes I mean it's easy to transport infrastructure is roads railways ports harbors all sorts of complications the infrastructure is prone to corruption it is in the example of the building and how do you make sure that that is so is everything else prone to corruption and a road is a road is a road. Yes it's also true that you know a lot of aid organizations have criticized China for investing in Africa on the basis of saying it's corrupting and then saying but we'll give you aid if you do what we tell you yes and I actually think that China has left strings in some ways in terms of leases actually belling the things and it's developing so that people can stand the rights of free and eventually Well you can criticize the Chinese from various points of view and that criticism is healthy and and fairly frequent but the fact of the matter is these things are necessary and the Chinese have a hands off you about domestic policy as with most things on this program we could continue that conversation thank you very much Tom Tom Youngs book is neither devil nor child now one last thing we want to talk about and i asked me here about who's going to win the World Cup at the start of this half hour we're going to talk about an alternative contest because while the Fifa World Cup in Russia is imminent in London another tournament is taking place the Kani for World Cup started on Thursday football teams from around the world they include Tibet the Isle of Man Northern Cyprus and Yorkshire are competing for the title of stateless champions b.b.c. Asian network's now leaning town has been following Panjab f.a. One of the favorites for the competition. It's not every day you get to play at Liverpool's training academy one of the best clubs in the world. But 24 year old Cayman Bando is an i.t. Technician is doing exactly that he dreams of taking Punjab f.b.i. To glory was when my friends. Told me about the job if I were looking to. The team represents an area covering parts of India and Pakistan but most of the players were born and raised in the u.k. For them Football is a way of connecting to their rates and the millions of Punjabi around the out warming moms and. Parents we hold her specially this one she lets we hold very closely to us the Hindu Muslim say it doesn't matter if you can be from India or Pakistan. Watching all this from the sidelines is bound to ha Preet saying for him this team is more than just a pet project he gave up his job for it spending $65000.00 pounds of his own money on the club what differs from the Punjabi identity cultural heritage is its mentality the history its food but what's happened over time is that Punjabi identity has become just a culture so the danger of losing who you are who your parents were your grandparents are so I want to bring a book through the beautiful game is being proud of Punjab Why is football the best way of expressing the identity because it historically has my feeling it's true there's no link there's no real synergy with the beautiful game but it's happening football is a language of the youth it speaks to the youth in a way that no language can communicate with. His passion could be rewarded. By is one of the favorites to win in the tournament run by Kony for its represents defacto state as well as linguistic. And cultural regions not covered by the fire and its popularity is growing Yorkshire is the latest to recruit joining teams like Tibet the Isle of Man and west in Armenia what we provide is a different model of identity through football so we believe that there should be more flexibility in who you're allowed to play for that's Paul Watson Kony Fiz director we were so that tells you your identity we ask you your identity for us it's a sense of saying to people where do you feel you're represented how do you feel you can express your identity. Back on the pitch it's time for a pep talk you go through. The team have lost the last few practice matches and manager Ruben Hazel is worried he's one of the few not jobbies on the team a lot of people associate Punjab with cricket boys are very good footballers and hopefully in the World Cup. They'll show how good they were from a Punjabi or not when I'm on the side of managing them. And I want them to win just as much as they want to win. 2 years ago they came painfully close to winning the tournament losing on penalties to add because they are a partially back to NY state on the crest of the Black Sea. This time around the pressure is on him to score a winning goal for the Punjab and its people is nearly need. To identity again. I want football to be the beautiful game and therefore it should be based on skill not on identity in that way I don't think I will look it's great the World Cup is inspired all these different kind of this kind of the homeless will cook the blood I mean you know that's pretty much how important it is I don't have been criticised for not recognizing the Yorkshire or all the Isle of Man myself and by the most controversial thing you said the way any of those punch plays would have joined the English team if they were good enough football was going to win the county for World Cup. I don't know really with actually fever does recognise state listings because of course England Wales Northern Ireland and Scotland. I mean it's about that's a very special thing we don't know our goal of England heritage of inventing the game and so on but I think it has a nice jokey idea let's let's not take it too far and you know let's just do you see the play good football thank you both for your time this morning you've been listening to Weekend back at the same time except. This is the b.b.c. World Service the news for most shortly after this 2 women with a shared experience the title of 1st lady you kids by virtue of marriage and like we all and privilege there's a lot of responsibility that comes with that I had to deal with the practical things to suffer within the family and everything changed a unified spirit I went out of the building with my white cane and that was a really good time to contemplate by myself you just accept the of blindness and then there's no looking back that pull and matching talent I wanted to become a deli chimney so that requires more hours so then I had to start home schooling I grew up you know the new system for me to last week's was the door opener to the world I'm Kim Chuck I need something and each week we bring together 2 women from different parts of the world united by a common thread a conversation listen online or subscribe to the podcast at b.b.c. World Service dot com. Coming up on the World Service we meet a man who went from researching quantum theory with the late Stephen Hawking and working in computers with Bill Gates to making bread on a scale you'd never imagine this is probably the biggest bread research project ever undertaken what's the point join us as we ponder the need for a modernist bread movement on the food chain after the news. B.b.c. News with David Alston Italy's new interior minister is in Sicily today to publicize his anti immigration policies many of the migrants from Africa and the Middle East arrive on the southern island tails of Ynys far right party wants to cut their numbers on Saturday he said migrants should start packing their bags the United States has rejected accusations that it circumventing international trade rules by imposing high tariffs on steel and many of the comments came at an ill tempered meeting of the g 7 group where ministers from other large industrialized countries criticized Washington's trade policies the British government believes the threat from Islam is terrorism could increase over the coming 2 years the warning came on the 1st anniversary of the attacks on London Bridge the government also warned of a growing threat from far right groups 3 former students have been arrested in Indonesia accused of planning attacks on the regional parliament in Peckham Baru police found weapons and homemade explosives during the raids Washington says North Korea will only get relief from sanctions if it shows real steps towards denuclearization the defense secretary Jim matters also warned that the road to a planned u.s. North Korean summit would be bumpy the Israeli military has carried out strikes against what it called militant targets in Gaza the attacks came after rockets were fired on southern Israel there's been no word of casualties from either side civilians are electing a new parliament the anti immigrant S.T.'s party is expected to emerge as the largest but it may find it difficult to form a government as most other parties don't want to work with it the Philippine president would be good to tente has attacked a un rapporteurs telling him to go to hell the official Diego Garcia say and had expressed concern at the independence of the Philippine judiciary b.b.c. News. Hello and welcome to the future in your weekly program about the economics science and culture of food I'm down salad you know from another b.b.c. Radio show The Food Program it was on that program I came across the story of one man's very special bread Odyssey but before I share that story I need to let you in on a secret at the b.b.c. When you're a radio producer you get access to a system that allows you to type in a word on a laptop and listen to radio programs going back almost a century for this edition I was curious about what the archive would throw up for what must be the biggest food story of all time so here goes b r e a d bread. Straight away it's given me a biblical bread reference with a recording of a church service from 1969 there's a lot geezers this is my body. And this one even further back an interview recorded with a woman who was a child witnessed the siege of Paris in 871. But. Then of course it's giving me lots of bread stories from the war. You do it. Yes it tells me that this is the voice of the food minister of the British government of $946.00 so Ben Smith everyone to reduce how much food they eat the face cuts to bread supplies. What on earth is this an interview recorded in 1962 about a bizarre sounding bread throwing ritual in the Forest of Dean a rural part of southwest England. A tradition that we must throw out a bridge every which. Right that we have Belgium forced on many Shangri I wonder if they still do that in the Forest of Dean let's hear one more this is a piece of bread history from a program recorded in 1961 the year the so-called surely would bread making process arrived that's the largest scale technique that's behind most of the sliced bread in Britain today and many other parts of the world and here in the archive from the year it arrived a group of bakers are discussing this new bread I do like the. I don't because. It lacks any attractive eating quality one through over just like a picture and for the cotton wool and sawdust Well the reason I wanted to hear that was to illustrate how this one food bread weaves not only through our own lives and history but also the story of civilization itself spanning centuries and of course millennia now my selection of archive clips Bez nothing in comparison with a project recently completed by a team of 60 people in the us who over 4 years carried out more than one and a half 1000 bread experiments baked 36000 loaves and produced a book so big it comes in 5 volumes with 2 and a half 1000 pages and ways perhaps costs more than most people can manage the book is without question impressive but the research carried out in the process is equally so myths have been dispelled important history uncovered and our relationship with bread put under the spotlight that's why I wanted you to hear from the man who made it all happen a former post-doctoral fellow of the late Stephen Hawking who became the chief technology officer at Microsoft who then decided that when he stopped working with Bill Gates would pursue his own obsession with food and start to write books and Nathan Myhrvold And I mean author modernist bread to get across the scope of the book I think we should start with a most basic question what is bread. Well we debated this quite a bit because bread is a food that essentially every culture has at least some version of and what we eventually decided is that bread is a grain based product which is microbial 11 and. So that lets out muffins and scones and biscuits and so for those are chemically leavened it lets out things like Japan or roadies doesn't love and at all we have a croissant here I must explain that we are sitting in a studio which for the purposes of this recording is filled with bread from round sourdoughs to loaves of sliced white bags of brioche and as you mention 1000 and across is microbial 11 and it's flour perfectly wonderful There are a lot of them the boundary between a bread and a pastry is a very soft one so for us brioche is a bread this is not before we hear what the modernist bread team discovered when they baked the 36000 loaves their research it's worth explaining the motivation for the project and the reason for the term modernist Brett Nathan Myhrvold argument is that bread has become unnecessarily trapped in time with references and recipes fix to nostalgic ideas some of which are true many are not all the result of events he believes that unfolded in the 20th century with the industrialization of bread when it comes to advance his machine made bread you could view this as a great technical advance or as a crime against bread equally Britain leads the Charlie were good process was explicitly a a process that was developed to be a fast efficient way to make supermarket bread well it worked it was inexpensive it was convenient and it changed how we eat as the B.B.C.'s bread archive shows up some nice loaf to look at but you don't buy a loaf of bread to sit by or if you buy it to eat it it's searched housewife who has the energy many cases she doesn't even possessed of a knife to cut the bread or the many years the real. Action to the plant made supermarket sparked a movement to save all Brant kind of bread was to be saved what in fact was traditional bread cause backlash in France a man named Ramon club Val started saying wait a minute we're losing our traditional breads in the United States it was mostly a bunch of hippies in Northern California and both club Val and the folks in the us looked to the history of bread look backwards and they said we're ruining bread with the supermarket stuff let's reach to the past when we could make really good bread and then over time people kept reaching a little further back into the past so the way to one up your competitor is say well use a gas fired oven I use wood Well next I said you buy your flour I make my flour there's some good things that can come of that but it sort of leads to a rhetorical question for me which is what's next stone tools at what point are you actually making the bread better and in fact saying that you are a modernist Baker it is like painting a target on yourself because the whole ethos of the bread world was so avowedly ancient Was it take the French begat for example to many it conjures up an image of long French village baking traditions not so this is very much the 20th century. In fact you can kind of tell from the size a baguette in France is typically 250 grams now in the 19th century bread was a major source of calories in order to survive on nothing but bread you need to eat half a kilogram to a kilogram per person per day. You don't come home with anybody baguettes in fact the loaves of the 19th century were huge We found a study by a French scientist named revokes when $840.00 s. Went around Paris buying loads of bread measuring them and the smallest loaf he had was to kill us because hey if you're Cup bringing it home to the family you have to add something big enough for the family. Was. Was. This fixation with blaring bread traditions is even more acute with a much loved offering for me to. Let God in terms of recent threads My favorite is job aka ciabatta Brad where I 1st saw United States and I tell you make react all this is great and must be some rustic an Italian bread from a little village that's why it's so Michel and it must be some village and I've never been to because I don't remember that from Tuscany or armor but Ok fine it turns out the 1st shot I was baked in the 1980 s. We know this because the baker who invented it felt for a trademark on it but in fact she wouldn't have been possible without abundant access to flour from more than for aunties and imports into Italy from Canada the us and Ukraine it's a brand that was built on high levels of protein are flour has steadily improved over time in lots of ways so at the bottom bread is typically about 85 or 90 percent hydration that means it's an almost an equal weight of flour and water now a don't like that won't work if you don't have a high protein content that's why you couldn't have done it in the past. So she bought as an invention but it's an invention that was marketed like it was this thing of the past where people have to ascribe a provenance let's false I think the look to the past has run its course and what we have to do now is admitting that actually we have the best friends in the world the golden age of red is now and can be improved. If we innovate and experiment more well he has some examples in a moment but he's now more qualified than most to say the golden age is now because through thousands of bread experiments he has now baked and eaten his way through all of all known Brett history. Do we have any idea of how broad came about what sequence of events might have given us the 1st red that fits your definition so until very recently it was a very straightforward story large scale grain agriculture started like 10000 years ago and so everyone assumed that bread was about the same age but then an anthropologist from the University of Edmonton in Canada found a cave in Mozambique and this cave had pounding stones and some had used to pound grain and he tells grain because the pounding Stones still had the grain embedded in them I just love that and it wasn't a cultivated grain it was wild grain. That makes sense because before you'd ever cultivate a food you must have eaten it in its wild form otherwise she wouldn't have cultivated it and invested all that time you know them that it was a wild sorghum it wasn't wheat in the mazing thing is it dated to 100000 years ago wow. And then the moment is pretty good a few more pieces of the story of this earliest Brants someone was pounding sorghum to make a primitive kind of a flower and interestingly in Ethiopia and that part of Africa they make a bread called in Deraa it's a sourdough Actually it's really sour so we decided that the 1st bread was very likely a sourdough injera made with sorghum 100000 years ago. So what do you do that well if you will as obsessed as Nathan Myhrvold try to recreate kind of very fast right so in this photo we got a large round river rock and we heated it up super hot on a better coals and we made our sorghum injera and we poured on the top and so this image of the dough as it's being heated up almost melting over the rock you know here's a fascinating thing when we did this we had the rock up we poured the dough on earthy It's almost like a batter for injure and because it's a sourdough it's quite bubbly so it's almost like pouring AFIC crepe or a pan Kate well I forgot to grease the rock. No you can see here in the edge of this photo as it started to get done it peeled up off the rock. So unbeknown to us. Non-stick cookware maybe 100000 years old. By the river. And it's from starting at the beginning and baking through history that Nathan got to fully understand how grains flour and bread gave rise to some of the biggest a most successful civilizations the world has seen the reason we were able to create civilization is that we had agriculture and then in agriculture grains were a miracle because grains are relatively easy to grow but more important that there is need to store grain just naturally creates hard little see and those seeds have lots of food value because the grain is trying to use it to grow the next rain plant. But they're so impervious to rocks and other things that as long as you keep on relatively dry for years but I find even more mindblowing is when you get to understand the microbiology that can be found within a loaf of bread fast breads would have been salad hers fermented with bacteria found in the environment microorganisms that once in food will start to release poisons to kill off and repel all the microorganisms but from ancient times within lives of sourdough something almost magical happened now you just puts out a poison called ethanol alcohol we say we are intoxicated That's because it is toxic if you have enough of it. Lactic acid bacteria are lactobacillus they make lactic acid Now it happens that these poisons are not perfect yeast for example can tolerate a fair amount of lactic acid lactic acid bacteria can tolerate a fair amount of yeast Well it's the to Co In fact. They make a 12 punch that suddenly has 2 poisons it's got the alcohol and it's got the ass and that 12 punch is very hard for anything else to invade. Is why sourdough works is funny marriage of convenience of 2 different microorganisms that can tolerate each other but together will repel all boarders from anything else coming in a quick reminder that your listening to the food chain owned the b.b.c. World Service with me. Let's fast forward 98000 from what could have been the bread making 2 empires that flourished and expanded fueled by grain and bread again the modernist team took a close look at the evidence the wonderful thing about ancient Romans is we have Pompei in Herculaneum is a we've got not only goes that have paintings in red but we have actual loaves of bread that were carbonized and preserved in the wall canning ash from Pompei and set out to recreate the life with the evidence from Pompei and recorded accounts of ancient Roman bread the Romans had white bread. We know this because plenty of the elder who was a general a statesman but also and a scientist he wrote a book on natural history Pliny wrote about how they would see if the bread to get a white or flower but most Roman bread was made of pretty poor grain by today's standards not that high hydration we think. And so it would have been a pretty dense loaf but it probably was delicious they had salt they had oils they'd all kinds of other things and he recalls I think he gradients including great juice cumin fennel and bacon fat in your head yes well that's why I say it probably was delicious. Bread is the staff of life you know give us this day our daily bread our relationship with bread as the foundation of our diet is very profound you know we all love ice cream there's never been an ice cream right. There have been bread riots or bread riots in Cairo last year there were bread riots in London around the houses of parliament in the 18th century bread was so fundamental to boss their relationship with it it's strange. One thing we did was we wanted to have bread looked like through the ages and because bread is so omnipresent in society there are documented so I got this idea looking museums so I went all the way through the loof and a bunch of other museums looking for pictures of bread. And it turns out that the Last Supper is great for this because people would paint the bread they thought was being in there they would paint their own breads in so in the 1500s there are German paintings of the Last Supper that show Christ and the Apostles sitting down to a meal with pretzels. Guys Well of course at present. Nathan even tried Mrs Beeton's toast sandwich which is a thin cold piece of toast placed between thin slices of bread and butter seasoned with salt and pepper a cheap meal in 1961 that would become cheaper in the years that followed the modernise bread project also threw up some Comfortable Truths about all relationship with bread today and the food and farming systems that make our lives possible in the book I've got a picture of my grandfather who was a wheat farmer in Minnesota and he's sitting on a tractor combine in 1920 there which is very crude if you looked at the end of the 19th century. It took. 2 farmers to feed themselves plus 3 other people so a huge fraction of the workforce up to 60 percent of the workforce was agrarian Well the industrial revolution started shifting out but it couldn't have shifted very far if we didn't keep having farming innovations plateaus tractors combine harvesters. There are people are very upset about our modern food system and I understand why they are but you have to have a look in the context of for thousands of years we were obsessed with efficiency and making things cheap and avoiding starvation and the risk of right now the u.s. Department of Agriculture to this great study we found which broke down all of the different costs that go into a loaf of bread and it turns out that any farmer gets $0.05 out of a typical loaf of supermarket bread and my guess is that would be very similar in this country. That's the smallest wedge in the pie chart the plastic bag costs about as much as the grain did advertising more money than the damn grain cost transportation more finance and insurance about twice as much. As we the consumers bears some responsibility it's tempting to point at them but unless you're willing to pay for for it which we are with. Coffee or with wine or chocolate give an example in restaurants some restaurants are charging for bread . People get mad at this you know bread should be free you should give it to me very economic support might be hard to change but the science the techniques and innovation behind bread should continue to develop Nathan Myhrvold argues it's all he believes that so many familiar loaves the same shapes and flavors can be found all over the world we need a modern this movement modernist bread starting in the home he argues in his opinion some less familiar ingredients should even be welcomed to school because it all a must for files can improve certain breads he says Nathan please explain so ascorbic acid is vitamin c. Vitamin c. In a bread or a flour helps prevent oxidation it's added a very small quantities well below anything you could possibly taste it's a tiny fraction of a percent but it does make the dough more supple it's got a whole variety of different ways that improves the bread now some people say oh that's cheating Well it makes better bread I mean so I don't think there's anything wrong with adding them and see another good example of this is braided bread hollow which is Jewish bread or many other breads are braided it's hard to get the uniform cylinders and then as you braided if you stretch a little bit you get a misshapen braid so I was thinking about this and I knew that there were some fruit which had an enzyme in it that would dissolve proteins. So much so that they've been used to meat tenderizer papaya figs and Kiwis it turns out a drop or 2 of Kiwi juice or pineapple juice as be fresh panel will juice not from a can and it makes it really easy to break your bread to need or not to need well turns out kneading is basically a fraud it doesn't do all the things that people have said it does certainly needing or a professional baker would just say mixing does speed the process up but that's it it's a it's a short cut in speed you can make great read without needing how you mix the bread by hand or with a spoon and tell us what we call the shaggy mass. It's not a finished dough at all and you put it in the fridge overnight. But you can also leave it on the counter overnight. 8 hours is probably enough it doesn't really have to be overnight but it's not very sensitive you'll get a great read on just some of the move controversial conclusions Nathan reached following his school years of intensive bright experimentation for the modern spread project I did one last question 36000 different breads produced in the making of the book more than 50 pounds myself but this is self-sacrifice in aid of food research more than 1500 experiments if you could only have one life from this 4 year exercise which one would it be so Francisco My co-author is a pastry chef 1st and foremost and he made a bread that's a chocolate fairy sourdough and it's dark chocolate it's not as sweet bread but the dark chocolate in the sour notes and then these cherries. Avoid I mean words fail me and if that's a good sign it's interesting you didn't choose Mrs Beaton's toast sandwich. Well we're going to just read that yeah you bet on the link to me of old. Morton's bread that's all for this week let us know what you think own social media just use the hash tag b.d.c. To change for now for me Dan Sullivan Oh thanks for listening and join us again for the food chain next week. We'll bring you the latest world news in a couple of minutes 1st though music Andres from our sorry a former b.b.c. Man in Moscow a long time friend of Russian music. To. Join me for the 1st of a 2 part global beats special as we hear from some of the country's brightest young talented little who beat us from Moscow at b.b.c. World Service dot com slash global beat. And in 30 minutes heart and soul then you'll have to is an Eritrean pastor forced to flee his country because of his Christian faith joining me cats Graham to hear his story and how his experience as a refugee now brings hope to asylum seekers in the over the England from our own correspondent is next here on the b.b.c. World Service the world's radio station. On from our own correspondent after the news in Mexico that came to see more of Lopez Obrador we've waited 12 years for him one of the announcers had said is the crowd had grown restless a little earlier so was a few more minutes why getting by in today's In Bob way is still a struggle he relies on 2 jobs one hasn't paid him in 5 months but he shows up anyway hopeful that this will be the month that he finally gets us back pay you know you just have to make a plan and a smoking dispute in the cafes of Vienna the waiter a gaunt man in his fifty's snorted Najar he explained what about my freedom to breathe clean air while I work had to ignored him it was clearly an argument they've had many times before all that and wets a find the finest tale as in Pakistan on from our own correspondent with me Rebecca b. After this bullet in. B.b.c. News with David Austin Italy's new interior and Deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini is visiting the Sicily today to push his anti immigration message the island is one of the main landing points for refugees from Africa in the Middle East at a rally on Saturday Mr Salvini who's the leader of the far right leg a nordo League party said illegal immigrants should start packing their bag.