Motherhood boring and American writer Dave Eggers tells us about his book The bunk of Maka a true story about a Yemeni American who becomes a coffee and Black Panther star Lupita Nyong'o on what the mythical country in the movie represents what kind is not brandishing feminism what kind of just is feminist women are allowed to be equal all that and so much more coming up on the. This is the B.B.C. News Hello I'm Jonathan Izod president says he wants to bring in tougher punishments for drug traffickers to tackle what he called the scourge of opioid addiction in America Mr Trump also said drug companies must be held more accountable and painkillers made less addictive from New York his now the topic one of the more controversial parts of President Trump's plan includes applying the federal death penalty to drug traffickers Mr Trump said the problem required brains and toughness he complained that drug dealers killed thousands of people but spent just a short time in prison in his speech the president pointed to other countries that he said didn't play games in the past he has praised the president of the Philippines. Who is leading an alleged campaign of extrajudicial killings against drug dealers many lawmakers in Congress oppose the idea the White House will also seek to cut opioid prescriptions by a 3rd over the next 3 years the ride sharing company is halting tests of itself driving cars after one of them hit and killed a woman in the U.S. State of Arizona it's the 1st time a pedestrian has died in an accident involving a self driving car the was a driver in the vehicle but police said it was an autonomous mode when it hit the woman as she crossed the street. Stock markets in New York have stabilized to finish mostly flat or slightly higher after a turbulent day of trading the sell off had been led by Facebook Kim giggles and has more details today there was only one company that Wall Street was watching Facebook shares in the social media firm closed down nearly 7 percent wiping $27000000000.00 from its market value Facebook is struggling to contain the fallout from accusations that it failed to properly protect $50000000.00 users data in the run up to the 2016 U.S. Presidential election it is now facing calls from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic to explain its relationship to the U.K. Data firm Cambridge analytics it's the possibility of increased regulatory scrutiny towards technology firms that then spooked investors and other so-called Fang stocks police investigating a series of bombings in the U.S. State of Texas say they have no clear idea what motivated the attacks and they have no suspects for devices that exploded in the city of Austin this month the 1st 3 killed 2 African-American men and wounded an elderly Hispanic woman the latest bomb was left on the pavement and triggered by a tripwire seriously injuring 2 white men F.B.I. Special agent Christopher Coombs called on the public to stay alert with this trip wire this changes things it's more sophisticated to start charging individuals who are very concerned that with trip wires a child could be walking down a sidewalk and hit something so it's very important that here in Austin if anyone sees anything suspicious you do not go near that package and you immediately call law enforcement so we can get bomb techs out there to deal with this suspect package world news from the B.B.C. Western leaders and the Russian president Vladimir Putin have struck a softer tone after his reelection by a landslide on Sunday the German chancellor Angela Merkel said it was more important than ever to pursue dialogue but the French President Emanuel McCraw urged Mr Putin to shed light on the nerve agent attack in England President Putin said he was open to constructive dialogue with other countries but said both sides need to show interest or as he put it there would be no love. President Trumper signed an order barring U.S. Companies and citizens from dealing in Venezuela's new crypto currency the petro Mr Trumps of the creation of the currency by Venezuela was an attempt to get round other U.S. Sanctions police have detained the Roman Catholic bishop of the city of Formosa in central Brazil on charges of corruption America's at the campus P.S. Reports the 7 men are accused of diverting hundreds of thousands of dollars each year from funds gathered in churches in 3 cities around the capital Brasilia prosecutors say a 2 year investigation had found that around 10 percent of the funds from church collection boxes donations wedging and baptism fees in the diocese had been channeled out of official accounts they allege the money was finding its way into the private accounts of priests bishops Ribeiro denies any wrongdoing the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas has called the US ambassador to Israel David Friedman a son of a dog because of his support for Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank Mr About made the remark was speaking to Palestinian leaders in Ramallah the U.S. Middle East envoy Jason green Blatt described Mr Abbas his language as highly inappropriate one of the stars of the television series Sex In The City Cynthia Nixon has announced that she is launching a bid to become New York governor in the forthcoming Democratic primary Ms Nixon who played Miranda Hobbes on the show had long been rumored to be planning to run against the Democratic incumbent Andrew Cuomo at the latest A.B.C. News. Hello this is the art sound the B.B.C. World Service I make you baby here with 60 minutes of the best global arts and culture conversation from across the B.B.C. And beyond coming up on the show today in a moment the maverick movie maker Christopher Nolan then we have 3 literary stars Dave Eggers tells us about his new book monk of Maka It's about an American Yemeni who becomes a costly entrepreneur and it's a true story to Frank a Moroccan bestselling write a list of Money Talks convincingly about why we shouldn't judge the mother at the center of her very dark novel lullaby and evil tumble artist and writer are quick and easy describes the spirit beliefs of the people in Nigeria and how they affect her central character in her debut novel freshwater Hollywood Star and Oscar winner Lupita Nyong'o discusses what the mythical country of Wauconda in Black Panther really represents and documentary filmmakers from the A story talked about how she compiled incredibly old footage from India under British rule to make her film around India with a movie camera and what it revealed was it's just this constant changing between being repulsed and Topi attracted by everything in India at the same time which I think sort of summarizes the relationship Joining me to discuss all that film produce it and they're committed to and critic rich KLEIN So speaking of archives as we were listening to that then do you both save an archive of your life's images your work images your film footage today How come to you 1st yeah absolutely I think it's very very important you know I keep all my films I think the real issue and problem I have with the moment is that there are various formats I have to take perhaps from Rome and I have Digital drives them I just wonder how to get them all to get. And put them on to something as everlasting One of the things and one of the like the big long term projects you know kind of there's always on your list of to do list is to try and digitize all of this stuff yeah long way to go still yeah you need an assistant basically don't you know Richard Klein was about you know well I do save everything saying I archive it is pushing it basically like you do I have my photographs are all in boxes and everything all the photos are taken on my phone in the last 10 years or on the cloud so they're not in any sense of archival So you know I can't find anything I have an edited version of my life I have removed every single unflattering fact photo or from a. Well it's what the way I've chosen to represent myself and that's good archive and we'll talk more about the bit later in the show 1st though leverage filmmaker Christopher Nolan one of the greatest directors in the world in my humble opinion and actually he's one of the highest grossing film directors in history from brilliantly playing with time line cemented back in 2000 to the huge success of his The Dark Knight trilogy and then inception in the mind boggling interstellar Nolan has really made a mark on the world of cinema his latest Dunkirk revolutionized the war movie and most of his films are made in collaboration with the producer Emma Thomas who also happens to be his wife the B.B.C.'s Kirsty Young asked the director what he thought of the notion that creativity brings with it a degree of chaos I think that's down to the individual creator it's down to what your process is mine is not about chaos in there has been it's about having a strong narrative and trying to with my crewmembers trying to create a framework on where we can explore things so for example I have a reputation for being very lucky with the weather and it's completely untrue and very unlucky with the weather but I made a decision early on that whatever the weather is I will shoot until it's not like we just shoot if it's pouring with rain or. If the sounds come out of whatever and beautiful things can come from that I am prepared but I'm mentally prepared I don't do shot lists I don't generally do storyboards but I turn up every day with you know nothing in hand other than the script and I want to be able to put the actors into the situation see how they're going to perform it and then film it based on that tell me about this one page synopsis the next 2 is even yes it's not even so much a page it's usually a long paragraph when you start on a script you generally have a very clear idea of what your final destination is but not how you're going to get there if you like and it's very very easy to get lost and so what I do is at some point when I feel I've got a good handle on it I just write out OK what is the film what it meant to be and at some point I'll just pull it up have a look at it I'll do it again when we're editing as well just pull it out so we communicated these ideas to we have the film I thought I was making a year ago so Christopher Nolan you've spoken previously about what you have described as the the mystery of what actors do and you say that quite often you might find yourself on sets not getting involved and allowing actors to do something and it is only as you are watching it being filmed that it is uncovered Can you describe a little bit of the sensation of that. On insomnia without the Chino we were shooting a scene and the end of the scene wasn't that tightly scripted and realized that after a few takes he got into this group where it's beyond acting is just living it and I would always know how he's going in the scene before it came and I don't know how I knew but I was picking up on whatever that mysterious alchemy that actors have it's a very very hard to pin down my job as a director is to be able to feel that with them and empathize with that do you have to then I want to get emotional when you watch your films in those moments when you see them captured. Yes very much I've always screened dailies very few directors still do we print the film we watch it the next night with them we watch every single take and one of the reasons I've always done that is I came up to after one take on a scene and I said Jim I've suggesting another layer that you might be able to put in and he said to me well I'll do that again if you want me to but I've already done what you're asking for you just can't see it with your eye but you'll see it in the dailies and I looked and there is a next day and he was absolutely right it was there the thing that I had asked for the camera caught it and even though I was right next to the camera studying him I did not catch it and the greatest film actors and between oh he's won a great stage actor as well as one of the greatest filmmakers he's able to put. I suppose you just call energy down the lens of the camera in a way that is genuinely unique and remarkable and defines an hour so it's just something you have to feel and this is the thing about films is they are emotional they are about giving you want to particular feeling and that's why for me the medium is endless the fascinating Christopher Nolan the my guest today film producer tender committed to and that his company is called 1010 films based in London but one of Africa's most prolific feature film producers and a champion of African cinema and sitting alongside him is the marvelous film critic rich Klein both of you as we were listening to that Christopher Nolan interview drew back slightly in your chairs when you heard that he doesn't actually storyboards or have a short list let's talk about that 1st and 2nd you were very surprised when you left totally remarkable I mean I think you know Christopher Nolan and the way that he stages scenes and they're so intricate and you know perfect almost that it's totally surprising that they are pre-planned to every single detail you know typically speaking big stage set pieces action sequences are in a storyboard endlessly and the studios require them to be storyboarded as well so it's interesting that he can get away with that you know from a studio point of him an exact point of view and secondly that he's got able to kind of keep it all as head and put a tray and you know give that information to his collaborators rich I think that just. Kind of is how you feel about him as a filmmaker he has this in his head he sees the storyboards in his head you know what he's doing before he gets all this that the thing that's interesting about him like he talked about being a one of the few filmmakers who watches the dailies Well he's one of the few filmmakers who still shoot on film that's also a very good point that's a very different because he can't see the dailies. Until later on when they process the film and he can watch it so he he makes films in a slightly different way he's also one of those filmmakers who could write an idea on happy sheet of paper and at a studio would say oh yes we'll make that so we heard Christopher known until King about the mysterious alchemy of what actors do that thing that is beyond acting which do you think it direct generally elicits that from the actors or does it not to have to have it in the 1st place I think the greatest actors have that and you look across the landscape of cinema and all the actors you think of as the great you know Meryl Streep and Judi Dench and there's a Washington they have that they don't ever seem to be doing anything and yet you're being moved by them these really fine actors and I think the best one of all is Charlotte Rampling do you because she never moves her face ever she just looks there and you feel everything that's going on you see her thinking you feel emotions and you and you're staring at her thinking there's not even a looker of anything even her eyes aren't moving and you're feeling this wave of things I don't know how she does it yeah I mean another performance Lupita Nyong'o 12 is a slave of the I was just you know it was so subtle but at the same time so powerful and so you know this heart wrenching and destroying We lovely piece and we're going to talk about her a lot more later in the show the idea 10 Deca as a producer that a Christopher Nolan movie comes in under budget I mean wouldn't you Yelm for a director like that at all actually have I got this all wrong and do you ensure that people come in on budget if not how does it work so the indie film world is very different from the studio world and typically speaking we're under financed and have less resources and less time to make movies so going over budget usually means my feet goes into paying for the film I mean it's quite it's quite amazing I think there's a lot of incentives in Hollywood to to to finish early and to go come in under budget from my. Point of View when I work with a director you know usually as I said we've got time so we're encouraged to try and use every cent that we've got available and put it on the screen you're listening to the hour on the B.B.C. World Service let's talk about Black Panther shall wave because no we haven't yet run as of things to say about this massively successful big budget huge growth involve a movie yet apart from anything else it's demonstrated the commercial potential for movies with more diverse casts and stories and we all love the idea of the futuristic African country of what comes Lupita was recently asked how she thinks the film will change the way we view power dynamics between black men and black women I want to respond to how I feel it ought to impact male and female dynamics because I think that it's not a racial thing this is actually just a human thing what kind of offers us is a look into an idyllic society where the country has realized that in order for the country to move forward most effectively it needs to allow all its citizens to realize their full potential So you see women holding positions of power and they're allowed to assume those positions and they're not threatening the men the men are supportive of those women and we see how that kind of support from both sides can push them forward you know and I think that's an extremely important image to have because women are allowed to be equal women are allowed to be warriors and queens and generals and scientists and such and it looks like a no brainer to work Condon's and I hope that that is an encouraging image for us because I think all too often when women are fighting for equality men are threatened that the people are trying to take their position I do not want to see a world where only women are in power I want to see a world where we can both have power we can both have. Seat at the table as to where our world is going you know where I can speak up and I can be heard and my brother can speak up and he can be heard and I don't need to thwart anyone in order for my voice to be heard and I think that's the image of what conduct what kind is not brandishing feminism Well kind of just is feminist Lupita Nyong'o that. Is this actually I wonder an interesting time for the film industry do we think there will be lost in changes in terms of storylines and casting for a more diverse audience also off of the me too movement 10 2nd mentality the film producer and film critic rich Klein in the studio with me your thoughts guys rich I'll come to you 1st I think we haven't yet seen films made since the me too movement started so worst were watching films that were made before it which is very interesting because they're picking up on that it's like guys there were watching a lot of female driven dramas and comedies and superhero movies and you know something like Black Panther were virtually half the main cast this we male and the really strong characters and some of the best characters in that film are female I quite like the fact that the shift is kind of happening in the industry while it's also being spoken about and people are talking about it and it's it's coming out of the shadows and which I think will cement it more in the future I think we're going to see even more films that have I think like the next wonderful movie which is in pre-production right now I think it's going to be a much better film than the last one to a movie which was the 1st big studio female superhero movie and it got a lot of attention and I think the next Black Panther movie will be a lot better than this one I have problems with this one but I think the next one will be even stronger because it will have probably stronger female characters and a better sense of that African roots to it you know and maybe maybe what I'm hoping is that people like Marvel get away from that kind of. Formulaic where you have to look that's the natural model of the reason why it's the end where everything trying to bring her into I I I really with you though but then that's not my sort of movie but I really enjoyed almost every minute of that era do you think that we can expect more interesting changed and I think um I think the change in front of the cameras as much as the saying is already happening I think what's really important about trains behind the camera who are making the decisions the gatekeepers who financing forms who are distributing movies who are greenlighting scripts that's where we need to see real change Thank you both so much you're listening to the answer on the B.B.C. World Service and if you are a loyal and regular listener of course you are and thank you you'll know that once a month we take the show on the road and I'll very 1st sound to a came from Paris just over a year ago and I got to interview the Franco Moroccan author Leslie Mani who'd just won the pre-dawn call a huge literary on in France for her novel Lullaby which tells the story of a Parisienne middle class couple who hire a perfect nanny to look after their 2 children she's almost too good to be true in Vaghul says self into family life makes us self indispensable and then becomes jealous of the couple and kills the children this is not a spoiler as we know this at the beginning of the book so it's not a whodunnit but why did she do it the book has now been translated into English and lay listener Money spoke to the B.B.C.'s Mariella Frostrup about why this idea of the nanny who murders was so tempting I find that one is a fantastic character after another of these you know and then he she she lives in a home that is not her home she raises children who are not her children she is the sort of member of the family because everyone is telling her you are a member of the family you're one of ours but everyone know it's not true and I like this idea and big he does very. We're the place she has in the family and in the domestic front so for me it was very and interesting as a novelist Lola Marion is slightly nightmare example of a career woman she's an unsympathetic character she can't even face attending have daughters breath they party she's not interested in the day to day duties of domesticity in fact she's slightly repelled by them which is what allows Louise to become indispensable So is there a warning embedded in your story no you know I don't think she's in some better tick and I think that we judge a woman when she doesn't want to attend her birthday Tilden or when she doesn't want to stay home but we never judge a man who says I'd need to go have a beer to clear my head after work and I don't want to go straight to home so I think we should be very careful judging Miriam I don't judge her and actually I understand her totally And I think that to a woman she was should have the right to say that sometimes motherhood is very boring I think she's a good mother it's not because you have a nanny that you're not a good mother and the reader should not read the book with trying to judge it's not the aim of literature literature is a place where you can put your judgment in prose and you try just to understand a human being you try to understand what it is to be more to be Louie's you try to explore the soul of someone but I'd argue actually that this book is less about motherhood and indeed parenting and and more about class perhaps and mental illness it is also about the fragmentation of society yes of course you know put in 1000000 day belong to a cultural class that you could call the hipsters a cool couple they are very nice they're not racist they are open minded but in practice when they meet a reason when they meet someone who is very different from them who comes from the suburbs and everything you discover that maybe they are a little. Kind of tendons and they are not as impressive take as you thought at the beginning Leslie money and Lullaby is available in English translation now and the film rights have just been sold to a French company it will be directed by actor screenwriter and director my when all my one of the best Go to give her full name my guests in the studio today 10 Dec I'm a tattoo who is a film producer of 1010 films that is his company rich Klein is a film critic and a writer so rich you must regularly hear in the trades as we call them new books being optioned just films and things like that how does this all work because apparently before a book is even written by certain novelists and rices the film is optioned. Producer time to grab properties whenever they get a chance so anything that has any buzz about it a producer will will go and try to get the rights to it because that prevents someone else from getting them you know if you get in early so a lot of a lot of books just based on an idea or like this one which was originally published I think at French was a 1000000 and translated so so it was probably they've heard about it it had a bit of grabbed it and now it's in English and someone owns the rights so no one else can grab it now you know and the other the other thing is that most rubies don't most of these don't get made you know so it's just somebody making sure somebody else can get it exactly it's basically saying I'd like to make that let's let's see if we can do it well that we have some producer wants to say never make it to the screen really how many books have you got options at the moment I mean I've got 2 options at the moment one that I optioned before it even became a book there was a magazine clips not exactly what Rich was talking I was right I was jealous I was running and I had I was listening to podcasts I listen to podcasts my running and fantastic story about a young Somali man who wins a clean green card lottery and I can really kind of track down the journalists who record the story. Tracked down the young man himself and he really had a booking agent and that agent or he had already had a Hollywood agent and you know I got on the phone to the Hollywood agent who was already dealing with the film rights and I was the book he hadn't even written the book yet I was disappointed and so yeah it was it was quite remarkable and so and then what happened was we we were quite aggressive about it I really liked the story and and then the the Hollywood agent kind of said Yeah well I've got a couple of competing offers but we're not going to do anything until you write a book. So then we had to wait for 9 months while he was writing the book in the book was coming in the book was coming in the book was coming Thankfully the book came out and the book hasn't been published yet is about to be published I think at the end of April I might and we're allowed to know the title or anything or is this all very distinct Not yet it's very hard how do you come back because then you can says I was the author of that evil goal to adaptation so them and so the other book is a book that I read in the early 2000 about it's called the African safari papers it's written by a Canadian writer called Robert said like and I read it when I just moved to South Africa I was living in London and moved to South Africa and it's this story about this really dysfunctional teenager who goes on safari with his parents and it all ends up really bad and it's really dark and very comical but in a very dark way and I totally forgotten about the book until maybe 2 years ago and somebody mentioned again I went on to really track that down again so I sent Robert . A direct message via Twitter because that's the only time where I could get hold of him and he put me in touch with a Canadian producer who had the rights and still held the rights and she was very pretty and she said you know I've tried to make a movie and this is one point we Helena Bonham Carter attached to it and then the script became completely Hollywood it was terrible it fell apart I was like great we make a T.V. Series I was like yes it was going to be T.V. Is this we're trying to get it act weird acting it's the television of the moment with a South African director who said SEAN WILLMORE fantastic. Thank you both so much don't go away a lot more to come back after this. This is the B.B.C. World Service where science is amazing listen. It's true. That World Service. Still to come on the outside with me Nicky Beatty writer Dave Eggers tells us about the monk at Mocca his new book based on the choose story and author a quake in A.Z. Tells us about her character who's informed by evil spirits the thing that becomes clear is that these selves that she creates because they're not actually spirits it is different selves of hers but in her case she's a poor spirit all that well coming up on the art. B.B.C. News with Jonathan eyes aren't Donald Trump has called for stiffer penalties for drug dealers including the death penalty as part of his plans to tackle opioid addiction in the U.S. The president said action would also be taken to cut the number of prescriptions here each year and to force drug companies to make painkillers less addictive the Ober ride sharing company as halting tests of itself driving cars after one of them hit and killed a woman in the US state of Arizona it's the 1st time a pedestrian has died in an accident involving a south driving car there was a driver in the vehicle but police said it was in autonomous mode at the time. The turbulent day of trading in New York has ended with markets stabilizing but shares in Facebook finished almost 7 percent down it's facing accusations that a political consultancy harvested the data of 50000000 users in the run up to the 2016 U.S. Presidential election the Russian president Vladimir Putin has said he's open to constructive dialogue with other countries a day after he was reelected the German chancellor and the French president both wish him success police investigating 4 explosions in the U.S. State of Texas over the past month say they still have no suspects and don't know whether they're dealing with hate crimes or terrorism Britain and the European Union have agreed the terms of the 21 month transitional period after the U.K. Leaves the E.U. The 2 sides describe it as a decisive step forward but remain at odds over the issue of a hard border in Ireland the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas has called the U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Freedman a son of a dog because of his support for Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank the U.S. Middle East envoy Jason Greene that condemned the remark as hateful rhetoric police have detained the Roman Catholic bishop of the city of Formosa in central Brazil on charges of corruption he and 6 other priests are accused of diverting about $600000.00 from church collection boxes and donations as well as weddings and baptisms B.B.C.'s. It's Welcome back to the art fair on the Vegas the World Service we've been making baby and if you've only just joined us here's a rapid recap of what you missed in the 1st half of the show film director Christopher Nolan told us about the alchemy style movie stars create on film Oscar winning actress and Black Panther starlet beaten younger talks about what will come of that truly represents and we heard from bestselling author Leslie money who's novel lullaby is a why done it as opposed to go down it coming up in this health of the show in a moment the American writer and activist Dave Eggers in a rare interview with the B.B.C. Evil Tamil artist and debut novelist amazing tells us how she wrote the Ebo spirits for her lead character in freshwater and I talked to documentary filmmaker and Robert Redford mentee Sunday a series whose latest movie pulls together all case footage of India from 899900 47 the result is around India with a movie camera this is just a constant changing between being repulsed and totally attracted by everything in India at the same time which I think sort of summarizes the relationship still with me in our London studio film ease tend to come a tad too who is one of Africa's leading film produces although he's based in London and rich client who spends days on end in darkened rooms because he reviews movies did that when I say that you're one of Africa's leading film producers So it's it's well stories that you're interested Absolutely I think you know I'm interested in working with predominately with African from makers and African storytellers but it's stories from all over the world of how they connect and interact with the world so you know interestingly enough while yes whilst I do make a lot of movies and a concert I do live in London but I think that there is a there is a wealth of stories coming out of the continent a wealth of talent that comes out of the continent and and I'm particularly tracked in working with. You might be interested in optioning the novel from a quick and easy then we'll we'll see what you think I downloaded it yesterday I haven't read it yet but I did download yesterday yeah it does say we don't put people together on this say next week we'll be in San Francisco North America for the Arts our own tool we'll be exploring how the new tech in the city influences all tests one of the best known authors in the San Francisco Bay Area is writer publisher and activist Dave since finding success with his memoir A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius back in 2000 against his written novels nonfiction and screenplays he founded the publishing house McSweeney's to support young writers and he's worked as a social entrepreneur and activist as a novelist I guess has tackled the sometimes sinister influence of technology he's 2013 novel the circle for example is a bad thing satire on the influence of big tech companies and last year it was made into a film starring Emma Watson and Tom Hanks his latest book The monkey is the extraordinary true story of mock the Alkan Charlie a young Yemeni American from San Francisco who in an attempt to become a costly entrepreneur finds himself unexpectedly trapped in war torn Yemen and he's forced to risk everything to escape Chloe Veltman the arts editor tell partner station K.Q.E.D. Went to meet Dave Eggers in San Francisco and she also asked him how he met Mark down and why he wanted to tell his story we met when he was about 23 with a mutual friend of ours was the and then it was a couple years later that Roger has said hey you hear what happened in the tar and I've been reading about the Americans stuck in Yemen there are already been a few articles about MacTire crossing the Red Sea to get out of Yemen so we got back in touch and he told me this incredible story about how he got out I was never able to discern differences in quality really in coffee but he sort of gave me a very quick rash course education in coffee cultivation and why it matters where we care where food comes from. And now more car sort of is bringing I think a very new awareness about direct trade being kind of the next thing and I hope everybody looks out for as consumers I mean the coffee that he sells here and some Cisco certainly isn't cheap I had a treated myself to a cup for $14.00 this morning prices but this coffee from Yemen has gone 6000 miles and through war zones and over the sea and represents hundreds of years of expertise in the Yemeni Highlands where they invented coffee cultivation so. I don't know if every cup of coffee should cost $14.00 and I don't think it necessarily should but maybe it shouldn't cost to $50.00 if everybody along that supply chain is being paid fairly and this is the latest in a series of books you've written about immigrants to the United States the others of what is the watts which is a novel about a young Sudanese refugee and i Tunes and accounts of the Syrian Americans experience of Hurricane Katrina so Dave how important is it for you to use your profile as a writer to give voice to the marginalized I never conceived it as a series but I am I guess attracted to stories of courage and people that leave everything behind or risk everything on a dream I'm also very protective of the American dream which is always exists and is always under threat and I feel like every time we have somebody like MacTire who dreams the American dream so well and then is still not taken care of and now his country of his parents origin is on the travel ban list and he has cousins and aunts and uncles all over the world that can't get into the country and it upsets me I feel like we're obviously in a period of unprecedented fear ignorance paranoia and his own phobia unlike anything in my lifetime let's talk about another book of yours set in the summer sky by area and also about entrepreneurism your novel the circle it was adopted into a movie starring Tom Hanks and Emma Watson and it's about a sinister Internet giants and a young woman who gets caught up in it's culture what prompted you to write about the tech industry. When I got here in 1902 so I saw the rise of the Bay Area as a tack Mecca people were kind of driving that I think that the utopian ideals of and articulating those a utopian I. Heels of the early Internet age and so you absorb a lot of that I did at the time and I was thinking a lot about it even though I was inherently a skeptic I saw early Internet achieve so many of these things the democratization of access to information was really kind of incredible easy way you could communicate with people around the world all of these things then just maybe 10 years 15 years ago I see it started changing a little bit the consolidation of wealth the hoarding I think of power and also their surveillance aspect of it and the intrusion on privacy aspect of that I didn't see coming I think I'm sure other people saw coming but it seemed more and more sinister and it took this darker and darker 10 so I thought it was maybe time to write something about it from the point of view of the most idealistic young person who gets her dream job at one of these tech companies but slowly see as the walls close in around her since the novel was published in 2013 the thing fairly shocking revelations about mass surveillance globally not to mention the gathering of information by the National Security Agency here in the USA when you 1st began what on the cycle did you imagine the extent of this issue I did I was trying to imagine all of the worst case scenarios so my goal every day was to scare the hell out of myself I've been shocked at how humanity I think has undergone a radical evolution where we in hideous and ninety's we did have certain presumptions of privacy that our conversations were private that our correspondence was private and most of that is gone now and I think in about 10 years you're going to see real radical alteration of behavior where human behavior will exist and within a much tighter on flow of propriety listen you the people who work at these companies are are some of the best and brightest and they're largely idealistic people too and they do. Latch on to the good that is done and I think that there is kind of a blind spot generally about some of the not so good I guess a unwillingness to face the fact that they do have power to turn things back from some of these abuses of privacy and sometimes abuses it just human rights and our responsibility on these platforms to do good to make things better to improve debate to cure rate the level of discourse as opposed to just thinking hey I made the platform we can't control how people use it well that's absolutely wrong they have such power to improve these platforms and I think just now and the last 6 months there's been a turning point with Facebook with other platforms that think maybe this is becoming this playground of hatred and misinformation and maybe it has hurt our democracy and maybe we need to stop and think about what we can do to make it better so to what extent do you think it's within the technology industries power to really shape the creative and cultural landscape of of this region and the world more broadly. I think that the Internet has owned up to the fact that they contributed a lot to the hollowing out of the creative middle class 1st with music and then with journalism a lot of the arts generally because we expect everything online to be free creators suffered greatly in the last 20 years and I think that everything needs to sort of slow down for a minute if the goal isn't just clicks if the goal isn't just eyeballs but actually what they aspire to which is the improvement of humankind and then they have to actually rethink a lot and it isn't just about speed and it isn't just about numbers it is really about morality and ethics all of these things like that were never part of the growth of these companies or very rarely it was can we do it how fast can we do it how much more money can we make and now I think it's time to say well we have a broken system we almost broke democracy 18 months ago we have a society that is drowning in mistrust we don't trust where our messages are going we don't trust where the news is coming from we don't trust anyone else that communicates with us online we don't know who's watching us at any given time and he's companies are largely responsible for but I really I turn away optimistic when the circle 1st came out when I would go to colleges and the college students were thinking I was some old crank that was judging their way of life and judging social media in the last year it changed completely I used to have maybe 10 kids come up to me and say yeah you're speaking to me I'm a scared as you are and now of the audiences it's like 100 percent want to talk about this there is no trust anymore for the motives of these companies and now they have to regain that trust day that is talking to Chloe Veltman from San Francisco apartment station. K.Q.E.D. To hear more from Dave Eggers joining us along with our fantastic lineup of guests including Grammy winning a collecting blues musician fantastic new Greta and the Google scientist who is teaching machines to create art that's next week for the art fair on tour in San Francisco back to today and our 3rd or that the Evo and Tamil video artist Maisie is a new voice on the literary block born and raised in Nigeria her debut novel freshwater it's had excellent reviews uses a narrative which actually breaks many of the rules of storytelling. Has always been unusual as an infant in Nigeria she's a source of deep concern to have family her parents successfully prayed into existence but something must have gone to run by as the young becomes a troubled child at a turns out to be more than just volatile born with one foot on the other side she begins to develop separate selves and when she travels to America for college a traumatic event crystallizes the selves into something more powerful Rebecca Carroll and our partner station W. N.Y.C. Suggested to our quake that the language seems to just pour out of her onto the page it definitely poured out of me in a sense I I didn't know what the book was going to be when I started writing it it was an exploration and I was very hesitant to write it because it's so centered in this in this world that you have to believe all these things to be true in order to write it and I wasn't raised in any of these traditions I was raised Catholic and so I had a conversation with my sister before I wrote the book where I told her that I was nervous about starting and I was nervous about immersing myself in this reality and she said well why don't you just treat it like you're a method actor you know that in order to make the work you have to immerse. Yes immerse make do work and see what happens from there and so that process of immersion in that process of accepting that these things were real changed everything for me and also this notion of believing what's happening right so tell tell us about and what's happening in her body so what's happening in her body is I didn't realize how complicated it was until I started seeing the book through other people's eyes so for example she's on a bungee and like she's a single entity but she's also fractured into separate selves and these 2 things are kind of separate but they get conflated a lot because they just happen at the same time in the book and so with her when she's born the connection that she has to the spirit world is maintained and that causes a dissonance and so she has this connection to the spirit world that causes dissonance in her lived experience because it's very jarring it's one foot on the other side it's existing in a limit on space that pulls you away from this reality and drags you into another one and so that manifests in a lot of ways over her life when trauma happens to her she's already dissociating from this reality so she just dissociates further she takes it one step further and splits into cells and in talking about the book after writing it and looking back and just kind of really learning it even after I had written it. The thing that becomes clear is that these selves that she creates because they're not actually spirits it is different selves of hers and she herself I mean we're all spirits in body to write a sickly but in her case she's a poor spirits and so that's I think has been the tricky thing with the book is that the singular and plural can exist at the same time. Amazing talking about her debut novel fresh water and she was talking to Rebecca cow on the big day program which is on our partner station W. N.Y.C. In New York if you want to him or just head to W N Y C dot org Well from the grammar of writing to the grandmother of filmmaking I mentioned and you probably got the idea that she is breaking with us a typical linear narrative if you like Rich is this happening in films in a way that you enjoy is that even happening are we still stuck with beginning middle and end and who do we care about well I mean film language has evolved over the years over the last century you know the original films were basically like stage plays put on the big screen and now they jump around a time with someone if you took one of these films back there they probably would have a lot of trouble following the story because we've gotten used to seeing things out of sequence and even if you go back about 20 years they weren't telling stories like this and you go back another 30 or 40 years and you see something like the The Godfather Part 2 where there's 2 narratives the film is 2 narratives woven together I don't think anyone had ever done that before and it's through everyone off and it was a sequel Yeah and it you know completely broke all the rules and then you go back to people like it Cochran who Orson Wells who are experimenting with cross-cutting and things that had never been done before no one had ever cut between 2 scenes which we're used to that now that's a language we understand I think that language changes I like the idea of this novel because I grew up in South America so I love that kind of Latin magical realism so there's a little bit of similarity it isn't there because I love that kind of magical realism that kind of look at that element that the supernatural isn't actually that extraordinary it's part of life Welton Deca has already told us that he's downloaded this book I What was your reaction to hearing her talk that you know it's fascinating because I think you know when we talk about. The language of cinema and how that's shifted and changed and how audience to become acquainted too fast and jumping in time lines. The opposite committed in terms of sometimes in this big cultural differences in cinematic language so we look at old African cinema from West Africa in particular like a dresser where drug go or do building up man Betty from from from Mali you know they would have these fantastic massive wide shots and they'd be to be 2 minutes long and to be somebody walking across the screen you know and that could never happen today in cinema you said they're going to do does everyone and some of those . All of. That it gives you a moment think about it also it's storytelling on different levels and that's what's attractive about this book and I think coming back to it as it is there are there are multiple levels of reality which are which are not necessarily science fiction or fantasy there are multiple levels of reality. More film there on the ark and a British Asian filmmaker whose latest work is the documentary feature around India with a movie camera it tells the story of India from 809-9947 using the British Film Institute's newly digitized archive collection this story as seen through the often exhaustive sized British lens of history something selected the British by watching more than a 130 films and then she wove it together we see things like a lion fighting a tiger an Englishman in brown face singing about the Rajah of Ranji who read glimpses of Mahatma Gandhi and what I wanted to know was whose story were you telling some of the well I had no plan basically I was just hoping I was going to be inspired and have a brilliant high concept idea to pitch to the B.S. About how I was going to structure all of this but I was loving watching it it was so exciting it was so crazy so different it was such a depth and breadth to the. Archive that I thought I wanted to represent that and there are home movies there are officials you know films I think what comes out of the footage and what I tried to do when I compiled it was just just look at how widely changeable the British relationship and thoughts were about India so for example there's one movie about the Salvation Army in which salvation army there's a very very shocking pieces of making a tribal woman remove all her jewelry and renounce her heritage and give herself to Jesus and it's quite a shocking crime so entirely staged which is another crazy stuff with most of the archive but then what I put next to it is a super example Sly's film shot by Jack Cardiff brilliance of a talk of call temples of India which is just about the Hindu and his many strange ways you know so there's just this constant changing between being repulsed and totally attracted by everything in India at the same time which I think sort of summarizes the relationship Well they I mean when they use words like weird and bizarre to describe the yes of today obviously we would balk at that it would be completely wrong but presumably at that time that was totally acceptable and obviously most of the party is terribly patronize ing so it was about finding other the nuances and subtleties within the material and you know also the great joy about working with archive is being able to reappropriate that footage and use it you know through my lens as a 2nd generation Indian So even though it's being it was shot for one purpose the joy of being able to use and to make a film like this is that you can make your own meaning and are so great for doing that and quote according to what you edit it with including to the music we had a great score but this bill means well filmic that the composer was. Down the hill there you can tell when you've got an affection. Some of that in the film so for example the English gentleman who was riding his horse around the garden and his little daughter is playing horsey and then dressed up in a sari I think it's a very boring film to make a film which is just a critique of colonialism the fact is there are many narratives within that story a lot of the time it's this film is so much also about just these ghosts of the past Sunday and around India with a movie camera can be seen in cinemas internationally there are plans anyway but in the meantime you can see some of these films on You Tube Just look for India on film from the B F I That's the British Film Institute 899947 well archives what's worth keeping and when you compile archive to make a movie representing an era I mean it's never going to be completely impartial if you're a filmmaker is it it's like history in the hands of Nicky played your what did my guest think 10 seconds without it what about you what are your feelings about films I mean I think it's extraordinary because it comes back down to perspective doesn't it when 3 when you're talking about you know these films being offensive and sensationalist and patronizing but then she can reshape the news that footage in her own lens and it tells a very different story and so it is classmate and I think you know it's that idea of the story of recognizant told from the perspective of the colonised is you know has never really been seen. I want to get really you know excellent excellent What about you but your feelings about compiling films like that I think it's really interesting because you have to I think the context gives something else to that film I think you have to watch it without judging them because they're they're making that film in another time in another place with another so they're doing the best that they can what I like about watching those kinds of films is that it tells you how we've changed and it really informs the kind of dramatic shifts in society that you don't really see on a day to day basis but when you watch an old film even some of the Hollywood classics you watch them and you kind of gas but some of the comments that are played out as completely innocuous and they're really sexist and racist or you know and that's fine but then vile and back then I was OK You know it was watching pregnant women smoking on Mad Men and now it's almost a joke but but I think that it's interesting the contrast I mean you must have had experiences with your children tend to where they've seen things that to them how do you know historical pertinent they haven't lived to particular time you have young children I have I have you have I've got a daughter 6 and 8 and I think that there's a lot of more recent kind of history things that you look at and they're like you know why would you possibly not have a telephone with buttons on it and when I go to court and it's and yes that machine that used to get tape into what is it I think you know I think what we're really what Richard said is about it is fascinating because it does tell you a lot about the context about the time right is the same as watching old adverts old advice can tell you so much about society and the kind of the state of mind of you know of the individuals and their society and I mean how do you both think that film and all coming film today could help today's society do you have any thoughts on that you mean future generation that looking back yes 50 years from now the world will have moved on and they will look back and think and I think a lot of the things will be about gun control how we treat criminals. The rich poor divide I think is going to be a big thing but the other thing is climate change I think you know they'll look back at our or all of our collective artwork and just think of our films and books and think Why didn't you do anything about this and we haven't done anything and others think we're bunch of idiots because we decided on and let it happen well let's not let it happen Gentlemen thank you so very much thank you to my guest today Tim Duncan was as he and rich Kline thank you for your company on this week sells out and don't forget you can be in touch with me and the show via e-mail. At P.B.C. U.K. Also details and information about this week's show on the website for now from me Nicky Beatty and producing Nicky Beringia see you next week for the arts on so in San Francisco yes. This is the B.B.C. World Service the real story is the new name for news extra. On the B.B.C.'s Carrie Gracie and every we can be joined by a panel of international experts to discuss and did date one issue that's making the headlines we make sense of the story behind the news story and why it matters and the real story at B.B.C. World Service dot com We're in the studio in 30 minutes I'm contemplating and this is the purpose because few minutes before the premiere of a brand new work on a cold the dust of the talent of an ancient Irish Legend tell us anything about 21st century world that's after P.B.S. The world hacks this is the B.B.C. World Service the world's media station.