Hello I'm rajin data and coming up after the news on the forum he's regarded as an architect of the modern economy and a leading figure in European progressive thinking in the 18th century but say his name Adam Smith and many people if they've heard of him at all will immediately associate him with a particular brand of less a fair capitalism the so-called invisible hand of unfettered market forces and the virtue of pursuing self-interest but Adam Smith was much more than this caricature as will be exploring a brilliant pioneering moral philosopher he grew up in a Scotland that was alive with ideas and industry he wrote to seminal books one being the Wealth of Nations he also was greatly concerned with inequality and the plight of the poor and he had radical ideas on how we reach our moral views on the world around us joining me to unravel the misconceptions and explain the true Adam Smith after 4 eminent thinkers of the 21st century so join us on the forum after the news. Hello I'm Eileen McHugh with the b.b.c. News Zimbabwe's former vice president him as in Mina whose sacking by President Mugabe triggered a military takeover the surge his former boss to resign immediately Mr Mugabe is still defying demands to resign and has been Sr that a regular cabinet meeting will take place later in the capital Harare but the governing party Zanu p.f. Is due to launch impeachment proceedings against him today from Harare Andrew Harding reports a Muslim man on Gagner moor less accused President Mugabe of trying to have him killed he said he would not return to Zimbabwe until he's sure he'll be safe Mr Mann agog was with his security guard warden of plans to eliminate him after he was sacked earlier this month he promptly fled to South Africa last night Zimbabwe's army generals confirmed that President Mugabe a Mr Man and God who had spoken by phone and claimed that Mr MacGregor had agreed to return home as part of a transitional roadmap that roadmap now sounds like wishful thinking as parliament here prepares to impeach the president and Mr Macgregor angrily demands that his former boss respect the will of the people the Russian president Vladimir Putin has called for a long term political settlement in Syria once what he described as the fight against terrorism was over he was speaking Jaring an unannounced visit to Russia by the Syrian leader Bashar al Assad promised to go here Syrians for it President Putin said that the defeat of the so-called Islamic State in Syria was close and inevitable this meeting in Sochi with Bashar al Assad was designed to underline the key role that Russia and its military have played in that Syria's president praised what he called a very successful operation there and both men said that the focus now was on making progress with a political solution President Assad clearly sees himself as part of that a man who was on the brink of defeat 2 years ago before Russia's military intervened China. The biggest social network in gaming firm 10 cent Holdings has become the 1st Asian firm to enter the group of companies with a market value of more than $500000000000.00 bigger than Facebook $0.10 biggest revenue earner is an out called we Church used by a 1000000000 people every month mostly in mainland China Robin branch reports from Shanghai what started out as a messaging platform now lets you pay order a taxi invest get a takeaway 10 percent is hoping to expand its offering abroad crucially that ability to pay using a scan of the app but it's proving difficult to get users outside China to embrace it the company has long agreed to censor content here in line with the demands of the Chinese government and there are also persistent concerns about security because unlike some other messaging apps communications on its are not encrypted this is the world news from the b.b.c. The prominent Chinese lawyer Jiang chin Young has been jailed for 2 years on charges of colluding with anti China forces he is the latest to be sentenced in a nationwide sweep against people involved in human rights work and his t. International has dismissed the trial as a sham. Myanmar's defacto needer own son Suchi has said she's hoping for an agreement very soon with Bangladesh on the repatriation of revenge on Muslims 600000 rangers have fled there from Myanmar since the end of August when the Army launched a violent campaign against them the parents of a 7 year old girl who died in hospital near the capital Delhi have demanded an investigation after receiving a bill for more than $25000.00 the girl was transferred to a large private hospital when she contracted dengue fever in August but failed to respond to treatment the cost has sparked outrage on social media. A group of us State Department officials are reported to have accused their boss the secretary of state Rex Tillerson of violating a law designed to stop foreign militaries from in the sting child soldiers the Reuters news agency says it has seen an official memo which says Mr Taylor since decision undermines u.s. Credibility of brought the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby who's the spiritual head of the worldwide Anglican Church is making a groundbreaking visit to Moscow to meet the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church Patriarch Kirill this report from Martin Bashir this is the 1st visit by the head of the worldwide Anglican communion for talks with the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church and comes 100 years after a revolution that saw thousands of priests killed and churches destroyed Lambeth Palace described the trip as pastoral ecumenical and political with Justin Welby due to have 3 days of talks to support Christians facing persecution and strengthen links with the Russian Church b.b.c. News. Why is international free trade a good thing just following self interest takers to the best outcome for society as a whole and does specializing in one part of the production process always lead to better results all questions we debate today and which we all 1st brought to Universal attention by a man called Adam Smith Hello I'm Rajan data and you're listening to the forum on the b.b.c. World Service where today we're exploring the life and work of a Scottish thinker who is hailed by many as the father of modern economics Adam Smith was an 18th century philosopher and economist and the author of a book called The Wealth of Nations or more precisely an inquiry into the nature and causes of The Wealth of Nations it was 1st published in $1776.00 and has been described as the Bible of modern capitalism no less it's an attack on the then prevailing received wisdom on how to achieve economic growth Lang have a new path for Global Development and the government's role in that process but the Wealth of Nations has also courted controversy it's a big book and some of its ideas have been cherry picked by those looking to support their own views from Thomas Paine to Margaret Thatcher and Former President Obama in the course of its history it's been used to defend self interest and the welfare of the common man and woman and by the left and right on the political spectrum to justify a different positions to explore Adam Smith and his work and ideas I'm joined by some very smart thinkers in their own right the Economist and u.k. Labor party peer Lord magnet design Emeritus Professor of Philosophy and intellectual history at the Open University Vivien Brown funnier Sulzberger who is professor of history at the University of Haifa in Israel and emeritus professor of political theory at Glasgow University in Scotland Chris Parry Welcome to you all and let me say there is going to be some nifty division. Labor going on here in telling the Adam Smith story and let me start with a question to all of you 1st of all why Very briefly should we still care about the thoughts of a man from the east coast of Scotland who died more than 200 years ago then his ideas have been enormously influential over the 250 years since he wrote The Wealth of Nations and as you say very controversial he was writing at a time when the society was changing into very much a commercial society and Smith was very critical of what he saw the prevailing view about economic development so he he wrote a very comprehensive work in economics and it included government policy and other things as well that was immensely critical of the status quo and the role of the government in the economy and that that's critical edge has caught attention and made much discussed over the years Chris we we should care because he has a name and his name taken in vain in many ways I mean as much as we curb the degree of accuracy in our depiction of people then it behoves us to try and get clearer more accurately what Smith stood for and funnier Well if we had to Leafs 10 or 12 names of persons that brought us all into modernity how on earth did we become of them at some point in time Smith would be one of them I'd also say he was not only a great modernizer He was also possibly the 1st scientific economist father of political economy but he was also the last economist who was genuinely also a philosopher and a historian and we should look back with some passion to this combination to this junction of philosophy history and economics law designed Magna but in no. The knitted limited they're also middle of the congressman like to. I mean it's you know it's all of them the whole group of people in 2nd novel writing century in Edinburgh and Glasgow who together created what we now consider to be social sciences you know the map you know they thought Newton was a great man who had mapped the heavens and they wanted to map the course of societies. Here as part of that effort to understand society from begin before we address the specific works by Smith that period of world history was an incredible time of flux there was innovation and creativity but also uncertainty was it do you think a ripe time for someone like Smith to come along question these what was going on around him and bring some kind of alter if you like to it to society is a very difficult I think in a way to see individual responses to what is expressions of a wider kind of social global disorder and I tend to think of Smith in terms of his Scottish background and that was formative to him was what we now refer to as the Scottish United meant which has been mentioned already and one can certainly sort of see the threads of that movement in terms of the issues that he was concerned with and the ways that he worked in terms of his connections and his friendships so we can sum up this cottage in light moment by saying that by the middle of the 18th century Scotland had established itself as a major center of scientific and philosophical thought let's look at some of Smith's specific works the other Wealth of Nations is his most famous and arguably most impactful work but his 1st major work and I think the one he liked the best was the Theory of Moral Sentiments and this explored many of the ethical philosophical and psychological ideas that would turn up again in The Wealth of Nations didn't What were the key messages and Theory of Moral a sentence was published in 759 and I mention that because it was on the strength of his reputation having published that book that he was invited to go to France so when he went to France he was known if you like had a certain celebrity as the author of the theorem or sentiments so it was a very influential book in his own time now in the sense of that we talk about that they have Moral Sentiments is a work of moral philosophy. Really it was a work of model psychology what Smith was trying to do was to examine how it is that people learn to make moral judgments and his argument was that you answer that we have to look at the way people learn in the course of the record a living to make judgments about others it's kind of bottom up instead of top down it wasn't adopting a top down approach that tells people what they ought to do according to some abstracts to system of morals or some sort of teachings that tells people what they ought to do and I think that's one of the distinctive things about their most sentiments and it's very indicative of Smith's broad approach in a number of ways is kind of bottom up rather than top down approach Funny I want to now turn to the Wealth of Nations which song go the Bible of capitalism you know I don't actually like that because I don't like the Bible is. Full of mistakes in Iraq that. You know it's really a textbook of what government and I don't know when I come from the land of the truck the Bible. Ok back back to the point is is is is it's a textbook to mankind is that a fair summary Well Chris if I may let me say something about Scotland than Europe because of course the conversation would be travelling between Scotland and Europe but this is not that they call to me at all and that's very important Scotland was perhaps Legia with edge of Europe but it was also a front clear in the sense that it went through things that the rest of Europe would only experience later Scotland became in with the focal was going to become a few rope so the Scots legs were political crisis union of Parliament's loss of sovereignty essential for this location followed by a very speedy economic modernization some parts of Europe will only get there a century later so Smith and his friends are on to something and that's very involved. Mentioned before we delve into the Wealth of Nations Smith feels that he has something new to say now yes it has been cold air the Great Game Changer of economics feel real political economic theory in general but we have to remember that the book in the beginning was not received all that enthusiastically on the continent people felt that maybe Smith is stepping into boring old debates they didn't realize how Mulvihill how intriguing his message was and want to be today what were viewed in the novel and an intriguing aspect of it in the main schools not really it was already dying because people are now out of the feudal estates and that doing trade and manufacture So how do you deal with trade another factor in my country list of say the most important thing is for the state to be strong to have a lot of money on gold and silver and also individuals have to work for the ruler for the government that's very important it's all right if you trade but the government will money toward you they will tell you what to do they will limit you and that's you know this is American police and then you have the counter school and some people mistakenly think that's me belongs to this county school school but he didn't and that was physical Kristie what his visit was he explained that to many French thinkers and then he spread around to Italy Germany and as Where are saying no no let us be much tree or than that and the famous French a rallying cry is less a fair a less paper say Limone that we made so lets people do things freely lead to their merchandise passed freely and the world we get to own on its own accord the world world goes like that and so they were very naturalists that said you know the economy has to be natural but the mainstay of the economy they say is still agriculture good old agriculture and Adam's me after dipping. Into Paris in listening to these people I think I love the freedom element here I love the fact that there is a natural movement which can work very well for us human beings in our economic society but Gentleman I'm sorry ladies too I guess there are many ladies in Paris understood what's going on this is no longer about agriculture we are in the world of trade and we have to reconfigure the freedom old manufacture and trade not just in the nation as the Macuntil it will but also throughout the world thank you so Adam Smith was interested in harnessing the shift from a largely agricultural economy to a mercantile one much more based on manufacturing national and international commerce Let's hear an oft quoted passage from The Wealth of Nations it is not from the benevolence of the butcher the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner but from their regard to their own interest We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love and never talk to them of our necessity but of their advantages it's very critical passage Chris but how much does it reflect the whole book it reflects the whole book in this is that we're going to way because what it what it's saying is. Based on the assumption what he says in the book is that. A commercial society event every month to some extent and that means we are involved in networks in Independence interdependence more accurately speak so the but the breakroom to our contemporaries and basically once tells the bread the beer and the beer girls too and so on and so forth and so it captures that and then saying is if you want to explain reliably scientifically predictably how people behave in a transaction basis then the most secure way of doing that is not to rely on humanity or charity but rely on a sense of self interest or self love and that is in a sense the mechanism that Smith thinks will work it's not the only mechanism and he qualified it very quickly after that but that's how it's significant passage but still iteration of course is terrific. And I mean any time you go into supermarket you expect things to be there while they're there nobody nobody is blind they're there because there is this there Turkoman what are called invisible. Because you know otherwise life will be getting very complicated people can understand how. As I'm aware from state control that's why they work it remember because it is very very very true to make it work and independence is the nectar of the inner loop and that is what comes out of this and let Well the sheer genius of the man who thought it through so my behaving selfishly self love or self interest that creates a good outcome for everybody it creates a network of interdependence. Funny and there's certain conditions that Smith did not invent the idea by the way we had an Anglo Dutch thinker called Vernon mendable beginning to sink 3 who wrote the fable of the beasts all the work in the region only for their own benefit but at the end something collectively good comes out of it so public places where self interested but public benefit this sounds lovely and it was taken up by Alex on the pope's health love and Social be the same and by David Hume who treated it in a very interesting way and then he comes dismay that makes it famous but this doesn't work if the initial conditions are correct it can only work in a fair society a kind of a British fantasy if I may. And both you and Smith a basic in telling us we can mourn it or if somehow create the cumulative benefit out of everybody's free dealing freewheeling self interest but only if we have good government solid stable institutions a degree of freedom and independence judiciary funny that you mentioned David Hume there and to explain David Hume was an important Scottish philosopher central to the Scottish Enlightenment and a good friend of Adam Smith I think the little bit that has been quoted from the Wealth of Nations is very interesting but it's also quite a bit packed into it and the notion of self-love is one I think we have rather cautious about in the context of thinking about Smith I really don't think that he was advocating self-love in the sense that selfishness. In deed is one of many of those who are rather scandalized by mandarins work who argue that you know public public prosperity is based on individual selfishness or individual vices so I think that Smith would really want to differentiate between selfishness and pursuing one's interest my idea was and I know I'm always very near the people who want to as it were. I'm Samantha. Tying him up you know left here and selfish that's all says something which is not really was socialistic implicitly or I think the whole point of Smith is that everybody knew all the qualifications and selfishness everybody was preaching don't really like this. His conclusion is this let's try this and this is the way progress lies you know all the people who like coverage of the London Greely have parts of them want to play with your immoral sentiments I think that's because I hadn't ordered rules of nature nobody or of the Arab world or the. Ins and jury so he released an entire system and. From. My own optimism controls and restrictions and that's our enduring Reus least you know Michael to me one thing to be in a properly be had more of a lot of. Economists funny you know I come from a country which shifted quite dramatically from a Labor LEDs long time Labor led social democracy 12 very free market capitalist economy and the bait is still raging and I often have to go on record in order to explain that Adam Smith was not the great prophet of cut throat capitalism what the Germans of the 19th century called Manchester you know the mentality of the Keynesian Industrial Revolution where you don't care about anyone Smith brought in 2 wonderful feel sick legacies that were enjoyed by the rest of the Scottish thinkers and that was sociability and the theory of more or less sentiment the human moral responsibility of the individual sociability going all the way to Aristotle that the Scots make a lot of meat David Hume did and the at those that we do have some kind of a sense of sociability and responsibility after your creatures that we are creatures of the community this is not Hobbes Ian lone wolfs of the state of nature and just a practical question that it is it's 5 books it's a huge and quite complex work how long did it take others with the right how long and how easy would it be to read well I don't suppose question I think it took him a. Quite a long time it depends when when when dates a starting point from his original ideas and sort of thinking about the area when he actually says you know systematically started to write it I would say that it was probably a good 15 years from his initial very serious engagement with the ideas an early draft of The Wealth of Nations from the period in the early seventy's sixty's before he went to France it's a he had started working on it before he went to France but it was when he came back from France that he really started working on it systematically and so it was about how you know how easy is it to read pick up and read now not easy because 18th century prose and people are not used to reading 8 essentially prose is die or is this wealth of nations easier than Moral Sentiments which is very florid Wealth of Nations is quite easy This long as you say I'm going to digressions and then of aggressions on the digressions and he packs a lot in part because he tries to be I think comprehensive and that's part of the Newtonian legacy try to explain a lot by a few very simple clear principles so part of the justification of the book is comprehensiveness with juice to a few experiential principle to you then have to work your way through to do so it's difficult to read because you can times you can lose that thread when you mentioned the invisible hand earlier let's hear another well known and widely used quote from Adam Smith every individual neither intends to promote to the public interest nor knows how much he is promoting it he intends only his own security and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value he intends only his own gain and he is in this as in many other cases led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention now Funny how much is that connected to this whole notion of self-interest and what magnate was saying about the way that people pursue their own ins and outs of it all comes together. Yes Well this is a passage about I mean then the consequences you know I agree with what has been said before that we should be invincible and in the us has an invisible hand with a grain of salt this is not some kind of the world's superpower monitoring all of us but unintended consequences do happen in Israel all the Scots were interested in that each in his only and smooth things that they can be a group surprise not only a bad surprise as we develop now truly you know it is absolutely right that people are not send when they are still interested but somehow we can all work for our own little holders of our families and friends and out of this would come a fine line slowly the economy and society but I think it is crucial to emphasize that both Smith and Hume before him for that good government is a condition. That a good legal system is a condition that clean handedness is a condition these is still relevant to what's going on in the world today that I think it has to be and emphasized with and you wanted to bring about the invisible hand of the invisible hand in The Wealth of Nations I agree with Chris this comment that the Wealth of Nations is a tough book to read but I think it's it's also been prone to a lot of cherry picking over the years and this it only visible hand is one of those examples but to find it you really have to down into the book with great detail in spite of the prominence of this cherry picked quotation sort of talk about the Wealth of Nations it is not prominently displayed in The Wealth of Nations and it's hard to believe that it doesn't fall on the road in The Wealth of Nations that people attribute to it Chris to emphasize part of the cherry picking your speaker continued. That quotation Smith immediately say that it's not always the worst for society that this happened and frequently so we can all immediately in the same sentence qualifies it the other thing is important about that sentence that you did quote in many other occasions it is a common shorthand mistake Michoacan a smith to assume the visible hand in benign plenty of examples that Smith gives in The Wealth of Nations or malign consequences of failure of Labor got a credit for example and the effects of vision of labor given to public cases so far we've looked at Adam Smith and his 2 important works especially the wealth of nations and how he constructed a theory and set of arguments that challenge the prevailing orthodoxy in part 2 will look more at how Adam Smith was concerned with the poor in society and the legacy of The Wealth of Nations and how Smith's ideas have been used and interpreted around the world so join us for that on the b.b.c. World Service straight after this new summary. This is the b.b.c. World Service where no we're all let's see. Deep down everywhere we go is something. The coral reefs and Still to come on the forum we've heard Adam Smith develop his groundbreaking theories on economics and philosophy and how his book The Wealth of Nations advocated the division of labor and free international trade helping to consign old all the doxies on how to run the economy to the scrapheap next we'll be exploring why his ideas were enthusiastically interpreted by very different causes plus to his views have any relevance today's global economy join me and my distinguished guests right after the news summary. B.b.c. News with Eileen McHugh some boys former vice president Emerson Minh and Greg one who sacking by President Mugabe triggered a military takeover has urged his former boss to resign immediately in a statement from an undisclosed location he said Mr Mugabe should accept the will of the people and go straight away or face humiliation in Harare the governing party Zanu p.f. Is due to launch impeachment proceedings against him today. The Russian president Vladimir Putin has said the defeat of the Islamic State movement in Syria was both close and inevitable he was speaking in Sochi where he met President sent who was on an unannounced visit to Russia Mr Putin said he had wanted to hear his Syrian leaders views on the peace process which he'll discuss by phone with Donald Trump and with the presidents of Turkey and Iran at a summit in Russia on Wednesday. Reports from Nigeria say at least 30 people have been killed in a suicide bomb attack in the northeastern town of movie local officials said dozens of others were injured when the attacker blew himself up at a mosque during morning prayers will be is a turn in the state of a dilemma where Boko Haram militant insurgents have been active China's biggest social networking gaming firm 10 cent Holdings has become the 1st Asian firm to enter the group of companies with a market value of more than $500000000000.00 bigger than Facebook $0.10 biggest revenue earner is an app called We Chat used by a 1000000000 people every month mostly by uses in mainland China and nearly 90000 people in Hong Kong of Applied to buy just over 600 subsidized apartments revealing a severe shortage of affordable housing in the Chinese territory on Kong is consistently rated as the world's most expensive housing market b.b.c. News. Welcome back to the forum on the b.b.c. World Service I'm Rajan data and today we're exploring Adam Smith known as the father of modern capitalism I'm joined by economist and Labor peer Lord McKnight design Emeritus Professor of Philosophy and intellectual history at the Open University Vivien Brown funnier Sulzberger professor of history at the University of Haifa in Israel and Chris Barrie emeritus professor of political theory at Glasgow University in Scotland before we come on to how Smith's ideas have been used around the world right up to the modern day Let's look briefly at how he viewed the poor and how his ideas affected them whenever there is great property there is great and equality for one very rich man there must be at least $500.00 poorer and the affluence of the few supposes the indigents of the many what improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconvenience to the whole no society can surely be flourishing and happy of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable. Chris To what extent was at its best concerned with the plight of the poor and powerless he was concerned because the legacy that he was part fighting was not the hierarchical I was hierarchical based largely on birth. And rank and his moral philosophy was egalitarian in as much as to say that everyone is equally deserving of respect and importantly for the Wealth of Nations everyone is equal under the law so there are no privileges to be granted to particular sectors of society so he could about the poor in the abstract sense it also took courage about them in various policy ways he was a strong advocate of high wages against the dominant view which the only way to get the nation ritual to pay subsistence level wages Smith was against that and there's all sorts of interesting references in this concern about taxation for example which says basically give $1.00 example of this is that luxury carriages so-called going over a bridge should pay a higher toll than productive carts as it were and Smith stays in this way the rich help the poor progressive taxation lives Ok Vivian I mean we have talked about the invisible hand the selfishness and want stuff which sounds like the poor get a bad deal in Smith's world is that fair. I think it's not fair really because I think that Smith and he has an inclusive approach in that they are more sentiments I think he also had an inclusive approach in The Wealth of Nations and in terms of the division of labor and increase in productivity that was so important for him because it was a means of raising the living standard of the working poor. He didn't say it was just something that would benefit the rich exclusively so I think that his overall vision of of the route that an increasingly productive economy would take was really important for his sense that this this was an inclusive process for all members of society as as your quote actually in this case a child picked it I think I would that does support it I think in a very interesting way let's look at some of that as with other work and thinking Vivian He is known if known as who as an economist but really he was a moral philosopher versus a a much more than that is only was a real polymath and I thought I saw these methods as the Polymath I mean he wrote and taught in areas that included rhetoric and find writing history of science including his restaurant to me he also worked on histories of law and government jurisprudence and politics he also wrote on the histories of language he loved He's fascinated in history in general including ancient history as well as modern history and he had a great love of literature one of things he did in Oxford was to go to learn French and he greatly enjoyed French and Italian literature and his wider project in a sense his overall sort of history and analysis of society was intended to draw on all these aspects of of the black human accomplishment and the way that human beings relate together and are interdependent in their lives and their way of thinking it was a kind of project to create or to write a science of man is that there but it is one way of putting. That's truth expression I demure of very slightly because of the understanding that my detachment ocean of science but this is a detail I guess main impetus it is a very similar kind of motivation the imperishable practical bottom up understanding of human societies human interaction and the way they change over time but Smith's problematic ambitions were in the interest rate it he didn't finish it all that's the trouble with trying to be too comprehensive and apparently in later life usually quite frustrated with how little he had achieved of his own project and there's something now that we have to kind of piece together the bits we do have some student actors from an earlier period it's not really clear how the material Smith would actually have pulled together this very comprehensive system if it was possible you know so you asked 2 books if you like just that with that with that with as every piece together Chris Well very the 3rd book is a posthumous collection of essays Smith famously told it exactly as burn manuscript but save a few. The few then published as the essays on full throttle subjects why do you want to burn the wells manuscript Smith was a private man and I think very jealous of his standing and reputation and did not want his published work which occurred about a lot and revised continuously to be tarnished by unfinished pieces of work so I think it's it's partly a sort of personal psychological thing to do burn it funny it today Smith has been cherry picked as we mentioned he's been in reinterpret is he's been misinterpreted here it seems to appeal to both the left and the rights of the political spectrum and seems to fall in favor as well how is all this happened. Can you explain that you know I think that the poly mess as Vivian So we'll put it was an auto who is now reduced to a handful of cherries it's a bit of a tragedy leg. Tragedy Terry old child if you like and they're what we're doing everybody sitting around if they were part of a less work is is to save Smith from his latter day hijackers I don't think I want to face 2 things that things in Smith that were very easy for the hijackers as I called them to take up and Smith could not have predicted 1st of all the division the famous division of labor so even his staff people like at them Fergus on the other Adam told Smith Look you know it's all very nice this division of labor in the bin factory but you have to remember that all of us also have to remain non-specialists in this civics field that is well rounded active citizens it's not enough to be a cog in the machine so there was already at sound of warning their heads Meath been able to live alone and observe Victorian factories the height of the Keynesian and then you know Charlie Chaplin modern times you know this ultimate on a gun at the assembly line Smith might have wished to tone down a little with the division of labor that's the one thing and of course the other thing is the fact that Smith. Always instilled benign rationalism into his understanding of human nature in the market and anyone who takes the free market with out me the 9 rationalism might be a capitalist in a free marketeer but he is no longer a student of Adam Smith didn't just want to make a point that it's myth in the last book The Wealth of Nations did acknowledge the problems introduced by excessive division of labor and he expressed understanding and if you like sympathy for that situation and he advocated various government policies to remedy it and he suggested for public funding of education and the reason it works so he didn't he could see it already and he already suggested proposals to deal with it in the wealth of the different views of Smith because nobody reads. You know the only note it highlights so all the people on the left really want to find out how boring the rhythm of labor can be relieved education and health with want of the state $203.00 they want in the state Best sent to come forward and the other side one for how the rabbits have gone forward smash all regulation slash all restrictions of those he's neither of them need both of them and so I think you know nobody reads them. But he's a great pleasure to read if people read him the most the worst as Chris said those 18th century prose is that going to be difficult for me I think the best you can the mystic you remember stunned look at the beginning almost all of the middle of. The trick to get to me like. A. Critic to say yes it. Would be difficult to be too kind. Over them to overcompensate a little bit. Mike Smith never said free education he said the should be a small fee to be paid that's good smithy in principle in other words that you've got of an interest in doing it and his education wasn't universal in the sense that everybody should have the smattering of the 3 R.'s don't bother with Latin that's a waste of time and they exempted quite deliberately the higher classes from that so even self has got what we produce there is a and we shouldn't forget that in pushing forward his model and Chris what about in countries major economies like China today how much they are even thinking about Smith or they are and it's not purely intellectuals who do it because it's a similar story from Japan a couple generations before that though looking at. Marxism struck Maoism China is sort of these characteristics are into the sound and so they're required some form of modernism in their own terms the Marx model having failed in relatively Chinese terms they look for an alternative and the classical alternative to the Marxist model is Smith and so there's a there's a self interests and use that word again interest on the part of Chinese policymakers to see what is this thing called the free market what is this thing called Exchange economists and so on and so they cherry pick for their own purposes and that was exactly the same with Japan in the late 19th century when the in the early Yeah the major restoration was Japan's got to get out of this futile Iraq $32.00 paths Martin Smith And so there's a big scholarship in Marx and Smith in Japan which continues to this day and in that sense it fixed the modern world in a way because the Chinese situation is in a sense my cantle ism and it's not attempting to try and see Smith can work with their own version of account Alyson and they're having problems but that's another story I think that this is this is where I think. That the only successful companies point in the world at the time is come this point because they're recognised through drink shopping capitalism has to come before solutions so that one has to work it's all 3 yes the Russians got it wrong the Russians tried to jump from a few lines of the solution and you can't do that capitalism and this differently gain by having foreign government. Going put export markets and so on and then one second largest economy and the Commons pointing. At you Smith has got something to say yesterday Smith lives. I want to just be and this is a quote from the Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz who says there is no in. Visible hand Ok he says the reason why the invisible hand often seemed invisible was that it wasn't there well it depends what you mean by the invisible hand because I didn't see. The visible hand that's taught in the graduate schools now is not the invisible hand of out of the Senate but but but on a broader point there are people who think this myth has nothing to offer I mean you know high level economists Ok Well we're getting to the end of the program now so what is Adam Smith's legacy is he just a historical footnote in a very complicated interlinked global economy today funny or if I had to carry a banner when I walk out of the b.b.c. Building that would be free Adam Smith that's not actually his real one true or that many of the Jews but there is the Adam Smith of both the width of nations and the Theory of Moral Sentiments we need to re Marlise Adams meet in our collective memory why why is that important by not leaving as a footnote that is because we need to re moralized economics itself. Because greedy bankers are not the legacy of Adam Smith we need to get back to Adam Smith in order to be able to come to act the greedy bankers press I get I skeptical about this I don't believe that an 18th century thinker will inform policy in the 21st century so I think that's a mistaken assumption to make the world has changed too much yeah in a sense but do your own thinking in some respect but the thinking that you do would benefit it seems to me from the way the family was just said that Smith never looked upon individuals as isolated atoms involved in discreet exchanges the people who took part in in the market were themselves moral beings and to some extent the remodelers ation which founders just talked about might help us with 2008 a legacy the bank of themselves were Smith the mirror in which they saw themselves were so narrow and distorted that they couldn't see outside their own blinkers and Smith might might educate. I think what we've discovered today are the many different legacies that can be attributed to Smith. If you ask me what kind of legacy I think we will have hanging onto and I think that it is the notion of an economy is being imbedded within a wider set of social moral and political relations because you need that kind of broad understanding to understand the economy but I'm I'm not so optimistic that we can kind of remark light economics because I don't think that Smith actually did Marlise economics I think that there is a sense of separation between their model sentiments and the wealth of nations it's at the at the Wealth of Nations is part of economic arguments I can't think of any place where Smith says Yes Well you know people don't do that even though it's in their interest because they think it's moral not to do it so there's a sense from its economic analysis of the edges out the moral sense of things in the world of nations and as I see it that's one of the really big challenges if we think that in fact economic relations do have moral implications then I think the question for us now is how to think that through and I don't think we can simply go back to Smith lots of ways he was with his but was pre-capitalist he had an acute understanding of historical progress and what we have to do now is not fossilize The Wealth of Nations it's a new work that has to be done now where we've moved on to a new state of society and it needs new analysis new thinking Interestingly the Nobel Prize winner for economics to see it was a behavioral economist any connection with. The long. Behavioral economists you want to claim Smith as everybody does they go to their most sentiments that it's not actually in the latest. Law decides what to do you think we'll think about atoms with him in the future but you know a few people go in read. But the thing is he is there because he's in the world but he really I'm I'm not we're all beneficiaries or victims. But you say free Adam Smith No you know. I think that in the very if you're interested go really but don't put any responsibility on him for what you do. Well that's all we have time for today thank you to my guests. Christopher Barry Brown design next week on the forum we'll be exploring the life and work of the great inventor Nicholas Tesla was he a technological visionary or just an impractical dreamer in the meantime all our programs are available as downloads just go to our website so happy listening and seizing. B.b.c. B.b.c. Was I b.b.c. World Service and now sporting witnessed today we're going back to 2002 with the story of the middle aged woman from Arizona who made history by winning one of the most extreme running races in the world out right Lisa Koch has been talking to outrun Martha Pam wheat. Thanks. But 280 feet below sea level bathwater in Death Valley California in July is 1 of the lowest and hottest places on earth you know it was really hot it was about 130 degrees. Why I. Can wait in a support crew set off in the 1st wave of runners 4 hours ahead of the Man Who are the favorites to win then a touristy difficult Badwater Ultramarathon we started with 30 people in our group at 6 am and 5 mile 40 I had passed everybody so it was just me and my crew in 2002 Pam Reed was a 41 year old mother of 3 who already had a series of ultra marathons an Ironman Triathlons under her belt but she wanted the ultimate challenge 135 miles through the bathwater desert to the lowest slopes of Mount Whitney nearly 8 and a half 1000 feet higher by crew had come up with this system where they were spraying me down and putting ice in my had and it was really great it took a mountain camp experience I've ever had when people say it's like being in a sauna with a blow dryer that's a pretty accurate description this is Susie because one of Pam's oldest friends and a member of her support crew I would say the hardest part is coming into Stovepipe Wells which I believe is about 40 miles. Because you've been out there already in the heat for such a long time and then there is a major climb just hard to imagine which backs and if it's mild long an ending there are no reprieve until you're at the top I did not sit down at all I just kept going and that was part of my plan I just kept moving you know and I would stop to eat or drink and then I just keep going so let me get this right you ran for nearly 28 hours and you didn't sleep and you didn't sit down corrected no sitting down as evening felt palm kept on moving under the beautiful doesn't moon in the mean time the fast a man who started behind was struggling and eventually all of them dropped out and at what point did you realize you were in the lead No not till mile 100 they rode it on the road a 100 mile mark and my crew were like Ok here's 100 because I'd never run over 100 miles before bad water and at the same time the race director came up and he said if you continue the way you're going you're going to win the race outright. The next morning after 135 miles on our feet without ever having stopped to rest or sleep or eat solid food Ham recants for the history books for all champions thanks to some precautions. With a timer 27 hours 56 minutes 47 seconds more to Director Chris cost money explained the scale of her feet and his race reports she broke the women's course record by one hour and 52 minutes out of the 2nd century a man who was. 2 2 right was. Right. 'd for was not a moment like when you actually crossed the line I felt just over one. Well Ming sense of peace it was just such a great experience with people who are helping me you just cannot do Badwater without help so it was just peaceful but some people in the ultra running community couldn't quite believe that a woman had managed to beat all the men to war to the next year the competition was much stiffer with 2 of the world's most renowned in Joe and south Leitz Dean can access and Christopher Berglund on the start line needed to prove her victory was no fluke I said the year before I would never do it again and when I got to the start line I thought what was I thinking at the start the gun goes off and Chris and Dean are ahead of me and way ahead and they were running so fast I thought I can't go down this road I cannot get around my own race when the 1st big climb began at mile 40 pound was in 3rd place with Suzy on her support group once again I remember so much suffering and so much misery that she could hardly talk her feet looked like she had stood on hot cool the entire bottoms of her feet were blistered huge huge giant red angry blisters that must have hurt terribly and she did not treat them until after the race at one point she thought she thought Poppy it was the middle of the night and she said there's a puppy in the end we're in the middle of nowhere in Death Valley there's nothing out there she claims it's not a hallucination she just thought she saw a puppy but there was no puppy but remembers the race wroth a different day she was focused on winning and the strategy of running her own race was starting to pay off so we started on the 1st climb and I passed Dean and he was really not doing well he was throwing up and then I kept going and at mile 100 There's Chris and he was not doing well so I ran up to him. And I shook his hand so I'm running along and then I thought Ok I got this one again and I was all happy and calling my husband on the phone but then Dean Connex sis started to rally would have to go as fast as she could the steep final climb on California's highest mountain and then the race director comes up again and says you know Dean is 20 minutes behind you so I just panicked and I just started running as hard as I could that's when that mount when the climb is and you really can't run it you can run a little bit in the beginning but it gets so steep that so I was just so scared and I just I went as hard as I could and I crossed the finish line I won but barely by that 20 minute so he held that 20 minutes I actually. Had silenced the doctors proving that women could outlast men in some of the toughest conditions in the World Race Director Chris Cosman announced that this was the last time he'd list the race results with men and women in separate columns and pounds achievement even brought the nice sport of ultra running to the attention of the American media when she appeared on one of the country's biggest talk shows so that felt really good that I was able to to be able to win again but then you know that I like a couple weeks passed and I got a phone call from the David Letterman show and they asked me Do you want to come on the David Letterman show Mike Yeah that would be fun so it was cool because my whole family got to come and we went to New York City and it was it was neat although she's been described as a Wonder Woman Pam says the reality is wroth a different she's been suffering from anorexia and depression for decades and extreme physical events like Badwater have helped her cope nearly 15 years since Pam proved were. Could be stronger than man she's now planning perhaps the biggest challenge of her life. In the words of one of her favorite singers Kelly Clarkson Thank you. How we. In February of 2018 I'm going to run across America and break the world record I'll be 57 my platform is mental illness because it doesn't go away I still suffer with depression and it's a tough thing when you have depression when people don't understand it I don't understand it but I just want people to talk about it I think if we talk about it more it just brings it to the surface thank you we thank you. From Reed was talking to Lisa Cook for that edition of supporting witness the program was a spark law production for the b.b.c. World Service this is the b.b.c. World Service where science lives for the creative with drugs we can get blood anywhere in the country in 15 or 20 minutes and the curious when we look at twins we found there were certain microbes that were always present in the skinning of twigs as a way twinge for a remarkable what it's like releasing the fall the pressure cooker Dion's on the b.b.c. World Service at b.b.c. World Service dot com and it's 1130 g.m.t. We're in the studio. As he develops his latest show the co-creator of the multi award winning musicals Les Miserables missed by gone and invites us behind the scenes and he develops his latest production up.