Transcripts for BBC Three Counties Radio BBC Three Counties Radio 20170104 010000

You'll. Still miss. 5. Local radio stations across the u.k. a Local radio. 5 Live the case ambassador to the sends out his resignation. To find facts to drop. The 5 live Web site for Johnson talked about his spectacular rise to number 6 in the world rankings. Which is. Looking like a lump of beef somebody. With 5 live news here is the Us Ignatius sent by Britain's ambassador to the e.u. To his Brussels colleagues urges them to speak truth to power so I've been religious says ministers need to hear the unvarnished views from Europe ahead of Breck's it would Hannay is a former diplomat to help negotiate the U.K.'s entry into the European economic community they don't have to agree with him and he certainly has to carry out their instructions but he should tell them what he's picking up and hearing from all around him in the door of the institutions otherwise how can they know what the people with whom they're going to be negotiating really intend to do. The lawyer for a Frenchman he was racially abused by Chelsea fans has told us justice has been done after 4 men were given suspended jail sentences Silliman siller was pushed off a train on the Paris metro in February 2015 the man have also been ordered to pay him compensation Ben Price set up the new racism at the bridge campaign after the incident I think what comes out of this now is I think that there is a confidence in fans to not tolerate it from a fan and this is a significant moment because they will be fans out there listening now who will sit inside but I don't want to turn around to the guy behind them and tell them to stop and I think there is no more of a collective understanding the police watchdog says a firearm was found in the car carrying a man he was shot dead by police on a motorway slip road the i.p.c.c. Is investigating the killing of the m. 16 year Huddersfield West Yorkshire Police says it happened during a pre-planned operation offices in Cambridge shell still looking for a man who ran away from a crash in which 2 pedestrians were killed they say a helicopter and dog unit have been looking for the driver of the b.m.w. . U.s. Republicans have dropped plans to remove the independence of the body that investigates political misconduct following an intervention by Donald Trump lawmakers a vote as 3 reforms to the Office of Congressional Ethics a correspondent in Washington is Laura Trevelyan a public outcry followed this and many members of public it must be said called up their congressional offices to register their disapproval but it was Donald Trump turning to Twitter and reminding them all that he was elected on promise to drain the swamp which sent lawmakers into action and they reversed themselves president elect Trump has also been praised for his passing getting forward to scrap plans to build a new plant in Mexico instead some of the money will go to its factory in Michigan the c.e.o. Of food says it's partly a vote of confidence in Donald Trump's policies and a team of senior medics has developed an app to help members of the public get 1st aid in the case of a terrorist attack it's called Citizen 8 Richard Harding is head of the National Counterterrorism Security office the 1st responders to that incident from a police perspective we never should be trying to do with people causing the threat they won't have time to help people who may have been injured and we know that that gap is vital for saving people's lives so we really really interested in the work of citizen and Schofield house the sports might feel and has been sacked as manager of whole city with the club bottom of the Premier League feel in signed a one year deal in October after taking temperature large in the summer the club has stated that a search for a replacement has begun and announcement will be made into course now having trailed 3 No Arsenal completed a dramatic comeback at Bournemouth as they rescued a point in a 3 all draw all of the gunners goals came in the last 20 minutes finally equalising off the cherries have been reduced to 10 men Arsenal are 8 points behind leaders Chelsea in 4th Paul Clement came down from the stands to see is. New club Swansea City complete a late $21.00 win over fellow strugglers Crystal Palace the Swans an hour points off palace and safety Stoke ended a 5 game Willis run with a 2 nil victory over what food and Eddie Jones says he's open to the possibility of Richard joining England's Rugby Union coaching set up this after he was sacked as director of rugby at Leicester this is b.b.c. 5 live in digital form the smartphone and tablet are you looking at the weather overnight staying cloudy but feeling less cold than last night frosty conditions in the northeast with some wintry showers and patchy frost in the South during the day patchy light rain across southwestern parts that joy. With plenty of winter sunshine highs 8 in London and 6 in Manchester. We'll need it we all do it but some of us just don't get enough of it. Can impact your relationships and your health so is it being taken seriously enough. Sleep has always been something that we've taken for granted when I wake up in the morning after. I wake up at around 4 and can't get go online and take part in the 5 life sleep study we want to know what's keeping you awake at night is it p.c. To. Slash 5 life. On digital and online. World. Vice President Joe Biden was in jovial mood today swearing a new members of the United States Senate for the last time. He teased lawmakers children and tried to catch a couple of babies over one anyway caught away but in our part of the building it was too. If sliding already for some time basis Republicans going into the new Congress which they still control power is flowing to the Republicans from the coming change at the top and a small group of congressmen feeling their oats trying to foster move to emasculate the small independent Office of Congressional Ethics But amid howls of outrage they dropped most annoyed the incoming president Donald Trump. Mr Trump in a tweet his preferred mode of communication said that the Office of Congressional Ethics is on the failure but he said to focus on it no it was a case of misplaced priorities focus on tax reform health care and so many other things a far greater importance tweeted Mr Trump now Steinitz joins us he's associate editor for The Hill Hello Niall Hi Rod Happy New Year Happy New Year Well here's a little office which not everybody has had off to be perfectly honest what does it do it investigates complaints a boycott a lawmaker's congressman and senators in terms of ethical breaches For example if a lawmaker takes a trip overseas and it turns out that that trip has been in some fashion coup virtually sponsored by a corporation you might report that lawmaker to this office there are also more serious breaches in terms like right bribery and so forth that can also be reported but the key thing about this office is that it was independent from Congress itself and that's what these small group Republicans salt change because there is a House Ethics Committee and they wanted to bring it under the purview of the House Ethics Committee. That's exactly right and this is where people get a little confused between when on the other the difference of course is that heis ethics committee is comprised of members of Congress and is therefore just a just stands to reason that this subject to political pressures because it's all politicians who are almost could could one have imagined this being good news for anybody who was actually under investigation by the little independent office and I think that current investigations would have gone forward now there would have been a new condition passed that the smaller office could not look back further than 2011 and know that you couldn't bring the old cases to its attention and there were also reports that it would have been deprived of the right true talk to the media about its findings or discoveries so those things would have been significant but I'm not actually quite clear on what the legislation said about investigations that were already underway and from what you say it wouldn't necessarily have any part to play in resolving any conflicts of interest in the incoming administration you know among for example some of these multimillionaires who are being unwilling to put that that's that's right to a point I mean the issue is that How'd if no change had been made and had some of the people been appointed there there is the possibility that so far as it pertains to lawmakers they they could have been reported to this office which could then have gone to the press or held a news conference and said We are investigating congressman or woman x. For this alleged misdeed How did this proposal pass they would not have been able to you had to do that so tell us we bit about Mr Trump's involvement because he got directly involved. He did yes he tweeted about this as you said in your introduction and he was objecting to both the timing of this and the idea that his colleagues in the Republican Party where prioritizing the wrong thing and you mentioned a couple of issues like tax reform and health care that he regards as more important I think my view on this is that it's part of Donald Trump's at temped to paint himself in a more populist light to me one of the reasons he won the election was because he was appealing to a certain cohort of voters who wanted change and so these kind of tweets and this protest against what Republicans were going to do to this ethics ball they burnish his his reputation to some extent in this respect. And of course on the other hand seeing the new house as it's far stacked trying to weaken controls over the the moral conduct of its members is very bad p.r. Isn't it how did it play in the country I think it was generally accepted to be terrible politics I mean it's just a very bad thing to do before Congress was only sworn in earlier today here in the u.s. So this was before Congress was officially in session the vote to. Press forward with this proposal was taken behind closed doors and so it's an absolute gift or would have been an absolute gift for the Democrats had it been a passed because of course it enabled the Democrats and progressives as well as members of the media to paint the Republican Party in Congress as as shady basically as in gaijin and rather dodgy 1st maneuvers I guess yes even as of course the call to drain the swamp becomes rather more qualified Exactly exactly and you know there are certain actions that Mr Trump has taken that do not appear to be draining the swamp but here he's trying to. Sort of a search continues to be his objective and I'll sign it at the Hill thanks very much niall my pleasure but my well was stay with the impact of Donald Trump because now in this case we have far too the international comic canceling construction of a new plant in Mexico and it's not a little plant it's $1600000000.00 worth instead of which the plant which was to open in Mexico is indeed going to expand its operations in the United States and flat rock Michigan and Florida Chief Executive Mark Fields says the decision is a vote of confidence in Mr Trump's pro-business environment we're also encouraged by the pro growth policies that President elect Trump and the new Congress have indicated that they will pursue and we believe that these tax and regulatory reforms are critically important to boost u.s. Competitiveness and of course drive a resurgence in American manufacturing and high tech innovation now all of these factors coupled with segmentation shifts that we're seeing in the marketplace and our effort of course to fully utilize the capacity at existing facilities have prompted us obviously to invest in flat rocks expansion and to cancel building a new plant in Mexico before Christmas course we had the United spent by an air conditioning company carrier that they were going to press for a number of jobs in their American plant rather than sending them overseas and they had been singled out for criticism by Mr Trump when he was still merely the Republican candidate Well joining us is Greg Gardner from the Detroit Free Press Hello Greg. Well thanks for having me thank you for coming to talk to us as if being seen at the trial as a successful example of Mr Trump putting the arm on a big company well seeing as it. Seems it's good news because it's 700 jobs in a plant is about 20 miles south of Detroit. Who gets credit is a matter of you know what what your perspective is. And it's not it's not an apples to apples comparison between the plant they're not building in Mexico and the investment they announced today and we should be there to separate product plans oh really where are they going to be building in Mexico that well Ok the Mexican plant was slated to build small compact and subcompact cars in the u.s. That segment of the market is declining rapidly and then when you add in the expectation that the Mexican economy is probably in for some rough sledding. That investment became less. Cost effective they have another plant in Mexico in a town called hemisphere so they're going to build those vehicles there along with a slightly larger is the fusion which is comparable to month Dale in Europe. So what they're building in Michigan is a series of electric vehicles and hybrids that Ford believes will become much more appealing in the next 5 to 10 years especially as the market for shared transportation and ride hailing takes off. So it could just be should business. One would hope it was for a business of one was a farce shareholder are barred employees right and as the general impression in Michigan are people and fire Time will tell the theory on why it's a good. Business decision is simply that the cost of battery technology is falling pretty quickly and then the 5 year time frame it will reach parity if not be more competitive with the internal combustion engine vehicle nobody knows that for certain but that's the way that's the way for it's making have a completely cancelled investment in Mexico Oh yes they have the I mean. Not only is the American market weakening but a lot of what they produce in this goes for General Motors and other automakers as well much of what they produce in Mexico get to export it to South America and in some cases Europe. Their speculation that if if truck goes too far and we see a real trade war break out. Any plan that is. Justified on the basis of exports becomes a ball. I was for doing generally because the type of the financial crisis and the like bailout g.m. Hard seem to be on the right side of that didn't they I mean they were they were in my own notable well in relative terms because their c.e.o. At the company on. Malawi. Borrowed. Over $20000000000.00. What's different now is for it actually seems to be listening to the canary in the coal mines I mean we've had 2 great years in the market here in the u.s. It's and hopefully it will decline gradually but Ford was the 1st of the major u.s. Automakers to say listen you know it's not going to get any bigger the market's not going to get any bigger and we need to prepare for that so. They're less the darling of Wall Street right at the moment and General Motors has but you know you could also argue that they're they're acknowledging reality sooner. But inside single Would you say that you've had 2 great years that the 2 best years since you know either or the crass that's not the story that we were hearing from candidate trumpet about well the economy was the other interesting irony here is that President Obama came in when not only the u.s. And global economies were imploding but the u.s. Auto industry was you know it's that's a such a crisis and you know it's it's definitely improved over the last 8 years now Donald Trump comes in at the peak of the industry's market and there's really nowhere left to go except hopefully gradually down God not from the Detroit Free Press I'm not strike Ok thank you thank you bye bye. Well big story in Britain has the unexpected resignation of the u.k. Ambassador to the European Union Seraph and Rogers breaks that negotiations are just months away and strivings resignation letter he urges British colleagues in Brussels to challenge to challenge model thinking and speak truth to power conservative m.p. Alison Bart is a member of the commons breakfast Committee and he says arriving the resignation is an opportunity for the prime minister and the Bracks Secretary David Davis they will be able to put someone in place who will not have the background of by and large isn't his comments we've now got a government policy we will to see what the negotiation base is going to be what I would like to see is someone who understands the basis of the United Kingdom's approach to negotiations that has a capacity to shape it and influence it as well. So as so Ivan as parting shots are just as colleagues to speak truth to power I've been finding a bit more about him from the political editor of the something times and the author of all I wore this is a guy he's got vast experience of the e.u. He's used to sort of weaving his way through the Kodos of power he's fiercely intelligent he's a guy who knows about politics and about sort of intricacies of diplomacy but he's also got a little bit of a temper on him this is a guy who when he was working for David Cameron and he thought that some of Cameron's aides wanted the renegotiation to go in a certain way and it was a direction that he didn't approve of he didn't think would work he was pretty quick to far off the aggressive emails saying back off guys you don't know what you're talking about I do and if he thought they were going to keep pushing trying to persuade Cameron to do things in a way he didn't want a go over their heads to David Cameron and a lot of them took umbrage at that So this is a guy you know he's on one level a sort of scholarly kind of chap and or another he's quite a fiery guy for a civil servant yet it might seem to many the amount of this experience would be useful to have a rod Yeah I mean there are very few people with it with as much experience in Brussels as a survivor and I think what's happened is that on both sides his side and in Downing Street there's been a growing realisation that they don't really want to work together the big question today was you know did he jump or was he pushed and it looks like he jumped for he was pushed this is a guy who you know has a view about how the government should go about it's going to go shares in strategy and we're seeing the 1st sort of glimmers the seasoning of the e-mail that he sent to staff in crap in Brussels and he's made pretty clear that he thinks that some of the things the government is doing and not entirely the way they should be he talks about staff continuing to challenge ill founded arguments and muddled thinking and saying that ministers need to keep hearing unfurnished and. Comfortable We use of of how the rest of Europe will approach the renegotiation So he's telling his his colleagues when I'm gone you've gotta stick at it what's the government doing to stop this big portrayed as a case of shooting the messenger Well I mean the government were pretty surprised I think it's fair to say the story was broken by the Financial Times on a the journalists there who got the story and when they found Downing Street Number 10 immediately referred all calls to the Foreign Office which is the fastest way of passing the buck when you don't know what's going on but now of course they will slide in and say look this was all pre-planned or you know the guy was due to leave in November it makes sense to have somebody in charge he can do the whole of the projects in a go she action over the next 23 years and it made sense for him to go now in his e-mail to staff today Rogers has sort of said that the number 2 job is also coming up in Brussels and he thinks that there should be a new person in charge to help pick the new deputy as well and it's very important that those 2 people work very closely together so he's kind of dressing it up as a procedural thing I'm sure they will too and say that you know there's nothing to see here it's all absolutely fine but clearly you know when you lose your top man just 2 or 3 months before triggering the biggest negotiation this country seen in half a century all is not entirely well in house saves everybody's warned us how complicated this is going to be large McDonald and Tobar busy telling us that going to take 10 years for this to work through with surviving God is it not no good to take 10 years well I think that the time scale is probably the same and the government will will say that it is what differs is that you know the government's view of how long it might take and survivors were slightly different as we know he he felt that it was you know a decade long project there's lots of different things going on here of course you know the initial negotiation in terms of how we leave the terms on which we sort of immediately broke. The door that will obviously only take 2 years but what's in question is you know what sort of deal with and put together in terms of membership of various trading blocks or customs unions or you know what sort of trading relationship we have with the going forward I think there's a growing realization across Whitehall of those sort of things may need to go through a series of transitional arrangements before we arrive at the final endpoint and in a sense Rogers was simply joining attention to that of course it's not a message a lot of Baxter's want to hear they do they want a very clean break and they want to get on with it and in a sense the speed with which you do you Bracks it also partly defines what sort of approach that you do if you're going for a quick break that the only way you can do it is to have a simple kind of clean break which you know other people would call a hard breakfast and that's where a lot of the ministers would like to head. Whoever is his successor will tell us a lot wanted to about whether or not it's going to be steady as she goes or whether it's going to be something a bit more dramatic Is there any Wired about that at the moment well at the moment I've not seen any firm suggestions of who it might be The Daily Telegraph reporting the same thing as it will be someone who is much more the government's way of thinking about Bret's it but frankly any ambitious civil servant now who fancies the job will make woman always has and appeared to be enthusiastic you know I mean this is obviously a big moment but there are no shortage of people around who could do the job one guy who sort of prominent in the civil service is a chap called all of the robins he's been operating as partly helping David Davis run the bricks department but also as to resume a sort of sherpa on these issues he's very well thought of and seems to have impressed the people in Downing Street who are quite hard to impress so he's going to be around about whether he does the job or whether he works or somebody else remains to be seen as another guy called Alex Ellis' the the ambassador to Mexico he's also being brought back to help on breaks and he actually worked. For 3 or 4 years in in the ear pain commission working for has a memo parade say when he was doing the job so you know there are people who know the inside of a Brussels smoke filled room and they can find some of those people what would be more dramatic if would be if they were to give it to say you know a business guy or someone who's from outside politics who does a lot of negotiating their trade negotiators around you could bring in and that would that would make quite a statement I suspect a resume a pretty cautious person instinctively would be more likely to find a mainstream civil servant that she feels more comfortable with and that sort of person is most likely to get the job I would have thought a knowing star Ivan as he likely to be the sort of passenger who retires gracefully to a farm in the Cotswolds are Will he be there offering helpful advice from the sidelines Well if you judge by the e-mail he sent today you know we journalists love to write sort of stories about who did attack some coded warnings and shots across piles but it's hard pushed to read this email tonight and not saying here's a guy saying you didn't like how I did the job by telling everybody else that they need to do the job like that and if you people tell you things you don't want to hear well the stuff you need to be told them because if we're going to get the best possible arrangement going forward we need to do it from position of realism about where the other 27 countries are and you know you're not going to get the best deal if you just go around sugarcoating everything and gazing at it through rose tinted spectacles you know obviously Saudi exaggerating the language he used but this is a guy who's you know as I say he's got he's got a temper is pretty can be pretty confrontational and I think it's extraordinarily unlikely that he's going to go quietly into the night and tend his garden or take to the beach. That's Tim's ship and who is political editor of The Sunday Times and it's worth looking at this e-mail which has been doing Orion's obtained by various including the b.b.c. And a few quotes here contrary to the beliefs of some free trade does not just happen when it is not the warts and by authorities increasing market access to other markets and consumer choice in our own depends on the deals multilateral pluralize and bilateral that we strike and the terms we agree I shall advise my successor to continue to make these points. Plural lateral I've never heard that before but it's obviously different from multilateral and you have to be a trade bar to understand it but right now we'll take a little break it's just coming up to our password. From digital online smartphones and tablets this is b.b.c. 5 Live. With headlines on 5 Live I'm given your promise So Ivan Rogers Britain's outgoing ambassador to the e.u. Has told his u.k. Colleagues in Brussels to keep challenging muddled thinking and speak truth to power and the resignation note he said ministers need to hear unvarnished views about Bracks it from around Europe a man who was racially abused by Chelsea fans in the Paris Metro is said to be feeling better following the conviction of 4 men by a French courts they've been given suspended sentences and ordered to pay compensation to Suliman seller His lawyer has told us justice has been done the police watchdog says a gun was found in the car of a man who was shot dead by officers near Huddersfield. Who was killed during a pre-planned operation on a slip road of the m 62 and Janet Jackson has given birth to her 1st child at the age of 50 the singers had a baby boy on is said to be resting comfortably Rob Schofield has the support whole city of Sox manager Mike Phelan with the club bottom of the Premier League Archie football correspondent John Murray reports might feel and was part of Steve Bruce's coaching staff at whole city as they won promotion back to the Premier League last season by winning the Championship play off final when Bruce left only 3 weeks before the start of this season feeling stepped in as caretaker and after starting with 3 wins in league and cup was named August's manager of the month he since guided them into the semifinals of the League Cup for the 1st time however there was a reluctance by the board to appoint him permanently once they did to the end of the season in. Mid October they promptly lost 6 want to Bournemouth have won only once in the league since then and so now whole city are looking for their 3rd manager since that promotion winning day at Wembley 7 months ago alleviate your ous inspired Arsenal once again shifting to the air she was. was 7 7 was. Was yes are surveying a side trailed 3 nil at the vitality stadium before scoring 3 times in the final 20 minutes born with had Simon Francis sent off with the score 32 The draw means Arsenal are 4th 8 points behind leaders Chelsea Paul Clement came from the stands to the dugout to watch his new club Swanzy city pull off for a late 21 victory over fellow strugglers Crystal Palace the win moves them a point behind some advices side and therefore safety 1st team coach Alan Curtis who took charge of the game was impressed we let him this afternoon human prior to the game said a couple of hours of the players a little bit of input does have time but really just to say you know well done you know how well be a plate and to make sure the check and I feel we kept on we kept on playing and obviously was there with us rather than Meanwhile Stokes to no win at home to Watford ended a 5 game winless run for them the Hornets though of only $11.00 in 8 to rope a union where Eddie Jones says he sympathizes with Richard Cockrell and is open to the possibility of the sack Leicester boss joining Glynn's coaching set up Cockrell was dismissed as tigers director of rugby with the club 5th in the Premiership is a good fellow at the mile we're pretty well in there in terms of forwards cages you know was that the possibility that we never closed Jones also confirmed that Dylan Hartley will captain England during the 6 Nations as long as he proves his fitness Hartley is currently serving a 6 week ban for striking now Olympic champion Jack lore has blamed British diving after his coach Adrian Hinchcliffe has opted to join Australian. Team Hinchcliffe was in disputes over making his consultant role permanent He guided low and Chris me is to Team G.B.'s 1st ever diving gold in Rio It feels like a massive insult so why the engine and his legacy and it just feels like race diving and in particular almost. Really look how much of a role in which British swimming which includes British diving has been approached by the b.b.c. For comment but has yet to respond. P.c. 5. Weeks You don't need to sleep. This is your football station tonight's 7 45 pm in London this house shall see the Premier League b.b.c. . Across the u.k. This is b.b.c. 5. As a sort of thing we don't want to talk about or think about really being caught up in a terror attack and the chances are that we never will be but a stream of senior military medics have now launched an app for your forward to teach us 1st aid in case we are caught up in the dreadful event they say could save lives because it could take some time before it's deemed safe for paramedics to actually come to people's aid it's called Citizen aid tell you that again at the end citizen aid and it contains step by step advice on how to treat injuries like severe bleeding and and stop people from bleeding out which is one of the most common causes of death after a trauma like that Smita mooned Assad as our health reporter she's been meeting the makers of citizen the and I asked her what you have to do. To get started with it he downplayed it and it's fairly simple to follow you case 3 different scenarios so for example if someone ends up at mass shooting a suspected bombing they've got sort of very simple instructions as to what the public should do now and I think we should emphasize it they say these situations these terror incidents are rather it's unlikely you're going to get caught up in one box they argue that if you do it's worth having a plan it's worth knowing what you Candy what all the should do things in how you can help people because they say that could be this gap in time between the police dealing with the threats and who have is causing the terrorism and the actual paramedics coming in to help because they can only come in they say once it's actually safe to do so I think in that time lives could be lost unless they are gay the public learns some flow of forms of the state to help so let me give you an example say if there's lots of people who've been shot and people are bleeding severely they talk about things like packing the wound with a scarf or any clothing you have to have and then making sure you put pressure on the wind and you elevated above the heart to try and stop the bleeding and they go through all the steps very simply with little graphics that I think people should follow. Have they been able to try this kind of simulation because obviously panic is a big factor isn't it are people going to be coming off to follow these instructions however simple I asked them less I mean if you're faced with that kind of situation I can imagine all of this information going straight out of your had their argument was it's better to have a system it's better to have a plan they come from a lot of them have military expertise and some of them were incidents like this and they say from the art school. It's worth giving people simple instructions because when they're in the situation Mehmood likely to follow that and anyone who's got a plan is more likely to have a positive outcome so it comes a lot of this experience from the way that they've taught individual soldiers a some life saving skills and they say now a lot more soldiers are surviving because they've learned how to deal with how to put on a case on for example and I think it's time for the public to know this too now you know they haven't tested it a let's say in a in a real life situation that would be very difficult they're saying their experience of these kinds of situations abroad and in the military provide them with enough confidence that this kind of system should work so there you are and your friends been terribly injured and and you're doing your very best to shave them is there anything in in the op that would actually get you to a life passion who could who could through it if you had something that you really can't understand you know so the app is really a lot of pictures that you can swipe through to difference and eyes because they make the point that say there is an active shooter or something going on you need to put your phone on silent you need to be able to look at all this stuff without alerting people to your presence and so they don't have so sound effects of someone speaking on this but they do say you have to follow the advice of the National Counterterrorism Security office the police say if you're in this kind of incident run if you can't run you hide and once you've hidden that the emergency services and at that point you tell them what's going on and then when they arrive you tell them again you say Ok I've followed all these instructions there are this many injured people this is how we have treated them this is how we need your help and they go through all of that and a step by step process is pretty scary isn't really an issue if you go to the shop or look like an official piece of government advice or something that you would be . Could you could you mistake anything else for it for example it is a pretty slick app this isn't official government advice it comes from food very senior military and civilian medics and has the support of the national counterterrorism office the police that deal with terrorism in the case but it's not an official government thing I think that well as they've said to me it's going to be a personal choice and see whether you decide to help where the download the app how much you are likely to be able to help in a situation but they make the argument it's better to be bad it's worth having a look at it just in case and they say look we're not trying to scare the public we just think that it's better that people have some sort of plan or people who want to can actually look and see the kinds of things that people could do at the end of the day the terror threat in the u.k. Is severe and while it's unlikely an individual is going to be cool top in an instant like this the police or the security forces are going to try and stop something like this happening but it might. Meter. Our health reporter at the opera get a scrolled shit isn't a citizen the capital letters. Almost a 1000 cars in France were set on fire on New Year's Eve in what's becoming an annual event the authorities initially claimed $650.00 cars were set on fire but then there it was discovered that the number was actually much greater they would have been Tell me more this happened mainly in the deprived predominantly immigrant suburbs of Paris Li Omar say and other cities where it did not happen is in the more central areas that tend to be frequented by tourists so we are talking about run down areas where there tend to be gangs of youths who are out on the street New Year's Eve seem to be a time when they've taken to burning cars perhaps because they feel frustrated at being left out of the festivities and so this is their one of the ways they found to vent those frustrations and torching cars has become a rather bizarre New Year's Eve tradition over the past 20 years in these kinds of neighborhoods but this time there was a surge in the arson attacks 17 percent movie because were burned down on the previous New Year's Eve total of 945 parked cars nearly a 1000 fear cause and this is raised concern about security at a time when the government says France faces a severe terrorist threat and people are particularly concerned because most of these vehicles were set ablaze in areas that are home to the communities where most of Francis is the mystic stream ists of come from these other Bally are the places where what can one say Arden or a French man or woman go with you are not at all the They've they've tended to to protect their late. Establish large immigrant cells there because they don't want anything to do with it I think I think that's a fair description isn't it of some of these areas outside in particular I think that's a very fair description and I would even add that in many cases the police themselves fear to go into these areas unless they go in large numbers now in the security forces defense you have to remember that the police and the army who are also being deployed around the country under the state of emergency say that they're being overstretched by the huge deployment of thousands of armed police and troops in French cities they're complaining that they haven't been able to take leave and they now know that the state of emergency is to last until after the presidential election in May and it's already very difficult for them to guard all the obvious potential target churches stadiums night clubs so it's very very hard indeed for them to maintain a strong security presence in those violence prone rundown suburbs at the same time but given the Christmas Market attack in Berlin given the nightclub attack in a Stambaugh both of those attacks had parallels with recent attacks in from the nightclub attack in Istanbul obviously with the batter contac in Paris in November 25th day in and the Christmas Market attack in Berlin strong parallel with the lorry attack in Nissan best stale day July the 14th last year so public concern is rising in France and given that the government is now being seen as having attempted on. Successfully to downplay these arson attacks on New Year's Eve That's just making people even more jittery than they already were what happened was is that the Interior Ministry announced that New Year's Eve had passed in its words without any major incident and it released a figure initially of 650 cars burned well French media then discovered that in fact 945 had been set ablaze and the ministry explained this by saying that it was only counting the number of vehicles directly set on fire by arsonists and not those that had been engulfed by flames from nearby cars that were already burning and the ministry then used the lower figure to claim that I'm reading from a statement now this year the overall number of vehicles burned demonstrates that Tel ever intolerable the phenomenon is contained so when the real story came out in French newspapers particularly the national daily Limone members of the public became angry and itself accuse the government of muddying the waters and the far right National Front Party seized on the issue to denounce was it called the government $63.00 mainly patchy record on security all of this is particularly sensitive because there are parliamentary and presidential elections coming up in April and May the government's expected to do quite badly and the National Front while it's not expected to win is predicted to do well and to put it into further perspective just for. Think back to that horrific Lori massacre in nice last July afterwards the government was accused by local officials including a former men of lying about the number of police who were deployed and people were so furious that they booed President alone when he flew to Nice and tried to reassure a nervous nation they were in Paris on trouble in the suburbs. Well . If 2016 was the year of fake news then 2017 is the year of waking up to the fake news and that goes for the Czech Republic to rob Cameron the B.B.C.'s Prague correspondent Dr me a little bit earlier to tell me what the Czech government is trying to do about it but just set up a new unit in the police in the interior ministry of the Czech Republic a dedicated 20 person unit set up to identify and a dent if I track and then explain highlight fake news which many people believe is being churned out by the Russians by the Kremlin via a number of rather dodgy news websites check language websites here in the Czech Republic that range from a. Range from simple all out conspiracy theories to scare stories about the migrant crisis very negative stories about the e.u. NATO and so on so to counsel that and to to to identify these stories as fake they have established a special unit of 20 experts who sit sort of sifting through the check internets to try and find them say interesting isn't it these shite do they look dodgy when you actually open them up some of them do some of them don't this that they they cover quite a broad spectrum of risks of respectability I would say some just like blogs others do look like sort of serious news sites some of them are. Clearly have a pro Russia pro must go slant others it takes a bit more sort of delving into them to realise that that's what they are peddling essentially. Obviously this is a this is a phenomenon this is a problem that many countries around the world are dealing with and of course. The Russia and Moscow is not the sole culprit behind them but but certainly many Czech security officials and observers worry that that they are really the key driver behind these fake news websites do they have a similar theme Rob to the they tend to talk about the same things they don't they tend to range in themes. In anything from the migrant crisis to Ukraine so those 2 things obviously quite different and quite disparate but. Clearly the idea behind them is to just create a sense of chaos I suppose and a sense that you can't trust the mainstream media because they're lying about this a lie about that and just to create a sense of disillusionment I think in the mainstream media in the Czech Republic the liberal democracy that's that's been in place here for what 27 years now and just to create a kind of slow degrowth they shouldn in trust in the political system and the media and in democracy and what many people worry about is that the aim overarching aim of all of that is to affect the outcome of elections here in this country and this year is a big year politically for the Czech Republic because it will elect a new Parliament in October for the next government and then there are presidential elections in January of 2018 so it's a crucial time so other other far right candidates are the people who would obviously gain from from having a sense of confusion about the actual facts very much so very much so and there are a number of new political subjects and political groupings and political parties that have sprung up in the last year 24 months and they obviously stand to gain for. A decline in trust and confidence in the mainstream political system the political elites the established political parties the media obviously they they they they they are very much nourished by this atmosphere of of fear and mistrust and anger that's been stoked up partly by the media and of course those stories then amplified on Facebook and other social media until they they do begin to seep into society I guess no way people think so it's not really utterly clear they're exactly who who does stand to gain in all this but you can generally say that it is parties who do have very skeptical views towards the European Union towards NATO membership who do have warm feelings towards Russia towards Putin so there is certainly a map a kind of pattern that you can create when you look at the news and you look at least new sites and you look at who could possibly stand to gain from them but it's not anything is as simple as saying you know this is the Kremlin's preferred party in the truck republics not the overt it's much more hidden and nuanced Well we're all being wooed to seize days and find out how closely we are related to getting this car or whoever it is but one d.n.a. Test particular as causing some raised eyebrows. In the Czech Republic it is here this is a fascinating tale. Many of you might have heard of a guy called tamasha got to master it he was the 1st president of Czechoslovakia from 118 until 1935 and he's really a almost mythical figure for Czechs he was a great humanist a philosopher a great politician a great modern european a great Democrat someone who really was. Very unusual for his humanist Democratic views in Central Europe in the twenty's and thirty's at a time when the region was slipping slowly into totalitarianism but crucially he is really regarded rightly as the father of the nation the man who helped check a Slovaks you know reach independence as the Austria Austria-Hungary an empire collapse in 1984 for Slav rights and he fought for Slav autonomy within the Austro Hungary an empire within the Habsburg monarchy until that monarchy collapse in ice and 18 in text like it was created so he's very much personifies really the yearnings of the Slavic peoples in the Czechs and Slovaks for their own state now it's long been assumed and he always said that his father was a Slovak coachmen an illiterate illiterate Slovak coachmen named yourself but there is a theory that in fact tamasha got a master at this great champion of Slav rights and the father of the nation was actually the illegitimate son of none other than the Emperor of Austria France Joseph. What difference would that make could rewrite the story a bit Wouldn't that it would have made have to alter pretty much every history book The jury's out on that one if these d.n.a. Tests do in fact establish that that is the case it's really hard to say what effect that will have on the sort of collective check psyche you know that not 1000 is a long time ago the Czech Republic is a pretty young nation in itself Tex in the back it wasn't around for that long but certainly checks do see themselves as different I mean they they accept that they are a ethnically or a mixture of Slavs and Germans but the very idea that their founding father was not this pure blooded of nationalists even though he was a humanist and a Democrat he was still a national someone who believed in the rights of Czechs to have their own state if that does actually transpire that he was the bastard son if you like of this hated Hapsburg Austrian emperor the symbol of the Austrian yoke over Czech sovereignty then I think that could turn. History and the Czech sense of self completely on its head Rob Cameron and Prague. Now in about 2 weeks time one of the most important officers of incoming president Trump's new cabinet will be examined by Congress and that has his nominee for attorney general man called Jeff Sessions Well strangely enough m. Something ties sessions to the far right governor of Massachusetts Deval Patrick and we're going to hear about the no from David at the Boston Globe poet David Kyra you know we have a quite an interesting story in The Boston Globe about Deval Patrick as you say the former governor of Massachusetts before he was the governor of Massachusetts he headed the the Civil Rights Division at the Justice Department and before that he was a lawyer a young lawyer with the and the bill a.c.p. And he was investigating a case back in the eighty's involving 3 black civil rights leaders who had been brought up on charges of voter fraud and the prosecutor in that case was none other than Jeff Sessions at that time a prosecutor it with the Justice Department and Deval Patrick was one of the and Tbilisi people lawyers who were defending these civil rights leaders and ever since . First of all Deval Patrick prevailed in that case but he also has since surfaced when Sessions has advanced in his career each spoke out against the sessions when he was up for a job as a federal judge and sort of helped defeat him then back in the think think was in the late eighty's and he's speaking out again today because Jeff session is up for the highest law enforcement job in the land as you say the head of the Justice Department the attorney general of the United States would be in charge of all sorts of things including the defense of civil. So Bill writes something that Deval Patrick cares very deeply about so he Deval Patrick that is 'd sent a letter to the Judiciary Committee the Senate judiciary committee recommending against confirming him to be attorney general saying he basically 'd isn't isn't the type of person that should be running the the Justice Departments so interesting is he then going to testify at the age of his Judiciary Committee Well I think that's up to the Dems you know and probably the Republicans on the committee I'm not sure if that's happened yet he has issued just letter and it's certainly getting a lot of attention and of course it's revisiting this case this case that Sessions has basically had to defend his role in this case for years now volves 3 civil rights leaders who were in think in Alabama who were helping to register and help elderly black voters vote and they were accused by Sessions and his federal prosecutors of altering absentee ballots. Deval Patrick says you know basically this was a pretty innocent situation in which some people were trying to help elderly folks you know exercised their right to vote so he would certainly make a a rather powerful witness before the Judiciary Committee which as you say will be taking place I think on January 10th or 2 we could genuinely teth the Democrats on the committee of course will want to delay these these hearings it doesn't look like that's what's going to happen now because the Republicans and the president alone Trump one of power forward here and get sessions and installed as the a.g. . They want to be seen to be acting swiftly in some contrast with previous hearings far appointees by President Obama where Congress somewhat dragged its feet. Well. Marvelous to hear you David thank you very much to talk to tomorrow thank you very much. For news and yes March for this c.b.c. 5. It's 2 o'clock the b.b.c. News comes from Rob Watson our top story this hour Britain's outgoing e.u. Ambassador tells his colleagues to speak truth to power and in sport feelin sacked at home while Arsenal fight back only back in about a Paul thank you. This is b.b.c. 5. The U.K.'s outgoing ambassador to the e.u. Has told his British colleagues in Brussels to challenge muddled thinking over banks it in a resignation note arriving Rogers says ministers need to hear unvarnished and uncomfortable views from Europe Alex Williams with his spokesman until 2015 if those ministers want to achieve their political negotiating objectives in the e.u. They need people around them who can give them the real advice an insider's account on how Brussels works and just having people who say yes that's a great idea or being at the cheerleaders for their policies in Brussels isn't the way to achieve success the lawyer for a man who was racially abused by Chelsea fans on the Paris Metro is told 5 Live justice has been done 4 men have been given one year suspended prison sentences in order to pay compensation to sell them and sell or buy French court he was represented by z. Michel Gabrielle now this very moment tonight Mr so many there right now is it Ok I guess so just let me say this survey I think Ok that's it. The Independent Police Complaints Commission says a gun was found in the car carrying a man who was shot dead by armed officers in West Yorkshire USA Yacoob died in what police have called a pre-planned operation on a slip road on the m 62 near herder's field a team of senior medics says members of the public need to learn lifesaving skills in case of a terrorist attack in the u.k. They developed an app called Citizen aid to guide people through giving emergency care and intervention by Donald Trump has forced the u.s. Republican Party to scrap plans to get rid of the independence of the Office of Congressional Ethics he tweeted saying it was the wrong priority and himself promised to clean up corruption in Washington Nile Stanage is from the political website Hill it's an absolute gift or would have been an absolute gift for the Democrats had it been passed because of course it enabled Democrats Progressive's as well as members of the media to paint the Republican Party in Congress as shady British Airways says it's extremely disappointed after some of its cabin crew are planning to take a 2 day strike next week members of the Unite union rejected their latest pay off for the advertising watchdog has told friends of the earth not to repeat misleading claims about fracking the charity posted a flyer saying the chemicals used in the process could pollute drinking water and cause cancer and reports in the u.s. Suggest the mass murderer Charles Manson has been taken to hospital from his secure hospital in California the 80 year old gains notoriety when he led a coat to carry out killings more than 40 years ago a reporter in l.a. Is Peter Burrows one outlet is quoting the prison service here saying that he is a lawyer and really that's all we have to go on so from from our direct information that we've had from the prison services they are not confirming this story however a number of American media outlets are reporting it. Now let's get the sport with Rob Schofield Mike feel and has been sacked as manager of whole city with the club bottom of the Premier League feel in signed a one year deal in October after taking temperature large in the summer the club has stated that a search for a replacement has begun an announcement will be made into course now having trailed 3 No Arsenal completed a dramatic comeback at Bournemouth as they rescued a point in a 3 all draw all of the gunners goals came in the last 20 minutes finally equalising off the cherries have been reduced to 10 men are still our 8 points behind leaders Chelsea in 4th Paul Clement came down from the stands to see is new club Swansea City complete a late $21.00 win over fellow strugglers Crystal Palace the Swans in our points off palace and safety elsewhere Stoke ended a 5 game Willis run with a 2 nil victory over what food and Eddie Jones says he's open to the possibility of Richard joining England's Rugby Union coaching set up this after he was sacked as director of rugby at Leicester was this is b.b.c. 5 live on digital on the smartphone and tablet a look at the weather over 90 it's going to stay cloudy but feel less cold than it was last night there will be frosty conditions in the northeast with some winter showers and patchy frost in the South during the day we're going to have some patchy light rain across southwestern parts of could be drier and brighter elsewhere though with plenty of wintry shan't sun wintry sunshine even though we could have highs of 8 in London and for an atom or a slice coming up this January on 5 Live and 5 Live spots extra Australian Open unserious live from Melbourne to get Shall I was sure I was joking one day international cricket India versus England shut down the pitching is up was consider us with a just a few in the wake of good. Cause. To show you the 5 was a 5 star sports extra. On am and f.m. Are in the u.k. On digital and online I'm Raj Shah and we're up all night lunchtime of a Sydney Cricket Dr must have a pleasant meal for the Australian Test side who are all over Pakistan at lunch Australia were 454 for 4 spice stopped by a drop catch from Eunice Khan who according to the moderately unbiased account of the Guardian's Russell Jackson dropped a set off the 2nd edge of cockfights by now that one of the best test sites in the world again displaying the African speed we'll take a trip to Sydney in a few minutes to talk about was on the air that is to come with a journalist time documented Peter Manning an expert says many a strangely ignorant when it comes to forest fires. All over Britain it's 5 past 2 fight outside a Bar Harbor Maine the Thomas for the 6 hour ferry trip from Nova Scotia and summer working lobster man will tell visitors all about lobstering at the Maine lobster Museum 5 prostate on the south shore of Lake Superior at Ashland Wisconsin Ashland calls itself the garden city of the in one seeds but is chiefly distinguished by having the largest or dog in the world papa $74.00 pack Montana famed for having some of the coldest winter weather in the lower 48 states 10 Fahrenheit c. Average went to high the spite which settlers managed and I was as built of grass sawed sonthe and wooden stakes and 5 Posix the series of rocky shells on the Spokane River in Washington notice a spoken false alley a settler's camp here and in the summer cable car going to Los cross the river. Our news comes from a.b.c. . From a.b.c. News. I'm Richard Kant to President Obama apparently turning a deaf ear to the president elect Trump who's warning against transferring any more detainees out of Guantanamo prison like Trump tweeted that any detainees still in Guantanamo Bay are extremely dangerous and should not leave the prison but White House spokesperson Josh Earnest says President Obama plans to send more prisoners to other nations that will take them I would expect at this point additional transfers to be announced before January 20th President Obama tried and failed to close Guantanamo during his 8 years in office Republican controlled Congress wouldn't allow it and the field a.b.c. News Washington with 17 days before Mr Trump was inaugurated the 115th Congress open for business majority Republicans reelecting Wisconsin's Paul Ryan a speaker's I want to say to the American people we hear you. We will do right by you and we will deliver and after voting behind closed doors last night to do away with the independent Office of Congressional Ethics The plan was pulled after a firestorm of criticism from constituents and Twitter plucking proclamations from President elect Trump Senate Budget Committee chairman again he introduced a bill to start the process of repealing the Affordable Care Act New York Democrat Charles Schumer a new minority leader says they will be heard we can raise our voices to present an alternative way forward and we can rally the American people to support this program the government reported a nearly $0.07 increase in its national average price for regular unleaded gasoline in the last week it's just under $238.00 a gallon now analysts say gas prices are going to keep going up mainly because oil producing countries many of which are OPEC members have decided to cut back on oil production supply and demand means the price of oil goes up right now drivers in the u.s. Are paying $0.35 more per gallon of regular unleaded than they were a year ago A.B.C.'s Alex Stone on Wall Street it was an up day the Dow Jones industrial average closing 46 points higher the Nasdaq composite index gaining 23 you're listening to a.b.c. News the jewel thieves struck New Year's Eve just as the clock was about to strike midnight in New York City. Just. 3 men entered the cave came through the roof wholesale and went to work with the pride bar and a hammer police say they removed jewelry from 2 saved valued at $6000000.00 The under distraction of what's going on a number of blocks away at Times Square also I think in their mind probably gave them some sort of cover a.b.c. News consultant Brad Garrett detectives guess this was an inside job even though one of the thieves stared straight into a security camera Erin Kotecki a.b.c. News New York the agency responsible for the iconic Hollywood sign says it intends to look at beefing up security the word from the Hollywood sign trust coming days after a prankster scale a fence and alter the sign to read. Security camera imagery shows the prankster clad in black Ok you made it a New Year's Reza. Lucian to start a diet 2017 Tata stick to it nutritionists at Cornell University Food and Brand Lab say making small changes in the kitchen at grocery stores and restaurants can be very helpful paying attention to the size of the plate things people are doing around you when you're eating and even the lighting in the kitchen you might want to redo things to put healthy foods at the front of your pantry try keeping the t.v. Off and eat at the table Dave Schreiber a.b.c. Me this is a.b.c. News time for us then to join film our star who's in Sydney Hello Phil yes morning to rot Marley and I'm trying to the effort of well which it takes to realise that it's not had a freezing cold everywhere but in fact you're having a nice warm day not too hot in the Sydney. Well that's certainly the case today but in the last couple of weeks we've had some searing temperatures here in Australia is biggest city and the Sydney Morning Herald has been saying over the last few days Rod Sydney will this or this past year 2016 would have had its hottest year on record and that is of great concern not only the effects of the heat but also the risk of bushfires here in this corner of Australia southeastern Australia is one of the world's most fire prone regions so this is always a very tense time of year of course this is the summer holidays mixed in with the festive period a time of great delights and relaxation for many but as I say also an underlying time of tension because of the bushfire threats and today we're joined by the New South Wales Rural Fire Service Commissioner Shane Fitzsimmons thanks very much Shane for sparing the time to talk to us today just give us a sense of the firefighting effort here in New South Wales What sort of a legion of personnel and equipment you have to deal with the threats as and when they occur here in Australia's most populous state. If I feel and look yourself wiles. Is principally centered around the volunteers volunteer fathers. Nothing for the record in a contribution and we number in the order of about 737-4000 volunteers registered with the roof our service and acting members across the course like with us by the working partnership with a. Rescue Service which has got about $7000.00 full time fathers the rusted on in the mighty population centers and regional centers in the south and then there's about another pal's and. Those that have expertise in our land in our land management area around our national parks and outside forests those are the lay farming I G.'s and of course they supported very much by by the police our emergency services and the broader government our government but when it comes to dealing with foreigners that break out and start impacting on on the communities of the selfless and also in the skies and you have a fairly impressive array of weaponry if you like those massive cranes just describe to us what these a huge water bombing helicopters actually look like and what else you use in the sky to provide that aerial support for those often hard to reach bushfires. Across the strike across the supplementals any day to cross for years are a really diverse mix of the crops that support the father yet but on the ground lines from small medium a large part of helicopters and there's also what I would describe as you will attract the cultural terrifies as well as the logic error upon the doubly now using to tutor principly drop water and with toddlers to help with the farm you are on the ground but also across the city seeing a range of other areas around intelligence and logistics and those sorts of things but to give you an r.v. The trying to logic crisis which often upper right Europe and the United States and then in the ultimate season by come down on the 2 to a strategy are we have 2 of them here use cellphones as part of a national place and they're often described as a pretty ugly looking machine but it belonged to a larger grasshopper flying through the a divide by Holder power in with 7 to 2 tons. Of custody which applies to about I failed to turn on 1000 liters of water they hardly versatile I can access water sources in backyard swimming pools Rivers strains the ocean lights and dams and other sorts of things to fill that large capacity water available to laws that are with suction lawns opt out of the bottom of a helicopter but can do the full pilot is about 45 seconds from the hull the water source or if they're flying forward using the sea snorkel water I can live got full capacity in about 30 seconds and then turn around on from the far into price and the people's homes in the fathers of the Great back to water source 'd might seem a very critical last it. Delivering support to the far part of your foot on the ground to lodge a 10th of that we were talking about the larger pines that you mentioned. Commonly referred to as logic tankers or the even bigger ones are very large a type just so not terribly Kori I did with alacrity but the last and way lad to give you an idea with of the equivalent of a hotel is you're applying. Knowing as though it's a large as it could hold of a r 15 and a half hours of liters of water and with audience and a good thing is like it's a large part of the very last the southern bill which is a d.c. 10 as they figured it could holograph 44000 liters of water from the top and the good thing about those machines is that the they like it on the outskirts of Sydney but they can reach any part of yourself whilst fully loaded into gliding but in less than a lesson hours flying time. Almost the current threat level regarding bushfires around Sydney on a you've had some pretty horrible experience in recent years but in this period in the New Year now showing what is the situation and want to what does it take to mobilize those tens of thousands of volunteers who might be at the beach they might be some might be a while on holiday and how much of a military operation is it for you to to really get that operation into gear at very short notice. Good question and look the. Decision that we are experiencing right now has a full consciousness of romance as having the the very real potential to be a problem normal far conditions and that's largely a result of some pretty extraordinary to run forward in scribbly So 6 months or so ago that's resulted in lots of fuel growth lots lots of increase growth in the forests the country along the mountain ranges but also in how far western plains of New South wild to bring the proliferation of of grassland grow some good seasons for our farmers but we are already suffering as the spring and summer months of kicked in and they hate us started to dominate the land scarred that we're getting an increased number of foreigners were getting agricultural bars with the logging strikes we're getting accidental falls and I have a pause that a starting very easily and spreading very quickly under the hot dry windy conditions the outlook for the next couple of months as we see through some of the storm much of use whilst much of south east of us from Ireland to be experiencing above normal temperatures and below average rainfall which is really problematic from a bush far season with very hot temperatures with very dry atmospheres that's when you've got the combination coming together across a very dry land Skype and draw the detention that follows will start things early and they'll spread very quickly and it doesn't take very long for those bars to start impacting on on local communities whether it's like a cultural assets whether it's people Heinz whether it's businesses whether it's Nigel Rau I launched rod long whatever it is far as stock spreading very quickly and become a real risk and present I really challenge through to people doing that. Out of volunteers particularly Rolex provided they were a little cold out of the bar a dedicated piping network which is working its in this system until our we get we get reports so far we are data Fox through aerial surveillance or satellite technology and we could call our couple guides to give you a larger pool of just to go up or I should get 737-4000 strong men and women the Doolittle prefer a wreck divided as a fleet of the ponces which numbers just are the 7000 of course. For the house 1000 of those appliances are dedicated to frontline fall apart in trucks all ranges and I can be hard my ball and form together in Chinese or strike teams or toss courses and capable of credible of traveling very long distances and being very self-sufficient for many days of the time it is not unusual for foreigners to go out on a on a single dicey for single launch but also to go way out on ships to Mark cover several guys if not to really be fully sufficient got most of all by scans which are like you'll. Hear only by scans like the old t.v. Series national You set up nest for a sleeping quarters shall blogs total blocks all those sorts of things we can set them up and very short notice there's a lot of stuff cashed up in logistical way helpless that can be deployed at a moment's notice so you've got this on with men and women working with their salary counterparts across New South Wales to deliver them are stormily the most effective and efficient response effort that we can in a lot all the threats and the progressing niter the fire activity we also are certainly does members dedicate themselves to working right across right across Australia so we will receive the benefit from leaving the site colleagues around the states and territories for ya. Coming to support yourself whilst wearing a scowl of the far a corruption requires that I similarly we reciprocate provide assistance to our partners across across Australia and the saving grace of the volunteers involve themselves to assist in our overseas foreign operations deployed to Canada and America and other locations like that by a group of writers with their family of course they have garages with their employers many of them something Cloyd's How tall was the business is a real impact on on the wing coming or any potential but it's the culture of all to reason in a strike is one of those fundamental strategy and cultural trikes one of those wonderful assets and to give you an idea of the soft targets around around the country Firstly one farmer Sergeant sees comprise I workforce of about 200000 stock the reality is 254000 of that stock volunteers and I don't mean volunteers on their time I'm talking volunteers they get absolutely 0 for dedicating themselves to serving the local community commissioner who it's. His shop at the other end of things. I wonder if these reports that you're going to be paying more and more. Dollars. In forest fires and loss of property and so on in the years between 2050 that was really depressed I mean the idea that the situation could only get worse. That's a good question Rod and it's something we're going Mark a lot of them are doing during last fall far in the landscape and trying to prepare communities for living with far off. The realities is a natural part of the astronomy incontinent and the earliest of settlers but the kind to strike you and circumvented the toast on the surface for the are dead a fart very much that it was an act the burning lent right and it burns all throughout the year we invest a lot of time we had good support from governments being in focusing on the broad spectrum of preparing for responding to and living with. Yes we've got to do with Falls with my price on the adverse weather conditions and. The how do conditions that are also there reacting putting Skype's So one of the sites to do so when the weather conditions are private to do so will the many hundreds of thousands of. Bushland if we use you know then manage the fuel loads manage the big depression part falls to limit the intensity of far and provide us some capacity to get a response and suppress followers were like. Typically in the spring and summer period that I was heartbroken to conditions we've also had to regulate them regulated now would you say for a disguise to make sure that we are smart when it comes to allowing people to move into the marsh that risk areas is it appropriate to build build people's homes built communities in some of the most foreign country in the world and if we use what sort of controls or restrictions or standards 'd need to be applied to the layout of that development to the construction standards and materials of the harms and the fences and what sort of setbacks will create areas that we provide between the Bush planting the forest and the Highlands and so it's very much integrated process that sort of thing at a. Jigsaw puzzle elements around planning and development these areas around effective cost suppression and using aircraft are using thought as its source of mitigation it's a battle of the technicians so the jigsaw puzzle is that we've got to being vesting in all areas of the farm management spectrum just that falling will respond to. The crucial thing is say where people choose to build our houses do you have much input into that I mean you've said what all of the variables are but but do the planning of thought is to say a lot of you to have some kind of say in whether or not to give somebody planning permission. To do road and the good thing is a New South Wales Government particularly led to why in a strike. Around the world in so many Why is that since the since the early 2000 you cannot build new development or special development like eyes care facilities 'd or vulnerable communities it was foreign land without the Bush lost the approval from the little foxes So we have we have worked with government and the planning of priorities to work very much in partnership with local councils love of governments in my control that any harms any new development. Because the relevant site the authority clearance from a far safety point of view but also any existing development good on modification or renovations or extensions needs to be a need to be more cognizant of the fact that they're in at risk areas and the overall asset the arvo ability needs to be improved accordingly to better withstand the impact of. That particular Cashen. And what about the character of Holmes in rural areas I mean the whole joy of living in a rural areas you've got trees and. Grassland and so on a round you. Are people having to think very carefully about that are they going to put in more hard standing I mean are they are they living more in kind of block houses than I'm comfortable looking home. A lot of our Rule communities have grown up the generations and then they're fairly pragmatic the family practical when it comes to the risk of Father the impact of one of the real challenges is as the population grows and meters out in the suburbs or moves out into the city trying to a tree trying to regions you get a lot of people to move into these areas and they don't have that experience all of the foreign whether it's trillions of working on the land so when it comes to the Bush landing the prize is very much is about. The building top of the building construction standards the materials used all those development controls around. Providing setbacks Oakley distances between the Highlands and the and the risk area of Bush but also we spend a lot of time every year when a scan Pine's about might be sure the properties Mine time we nice troops on to an experience that more than likely percent of all the homes lost in Bush was actually catch fire through the in the shallow side of bars give off a tremendous amount of Spock's or flooding in the heart and burning that flow through the end of the landing ahead of them I thought front now if the Huns in the buildings of the properties old head of the mine front and the end of the landing on those beliefs if the gases are out of a lot of it we withdraw it leaves and Tipperary if the if the program has the wooden verandas. Covered with you know Haitian doormat schooldays there's a lot to take the wood for are going to and we toughed if those things a little cliche on the little probably 9 times and if there's not any one time when the trees are alive the housing the house that Mike's The house is very very susceptible to ignition so we heard everyone to prepare their home to prepare their property to carry out regular and reliable might Ment's to to mitigate the impact of ember attack and to waltz. In rural areas create good clean areas around the Harlem Well my well my loans well mine paddocks heavily Grice paddocks good good plywood far breaks around the Japan big so we can get a chance to to get the upper hand on my bike after stopping losing you know I close and I. Crops at any given time so there's a range of measures and activities that need to be undertaken in addition to the original setting down of the building construction and design and layout in the local area personally shipping understanding of risk and then doing something about the risk and preparing your house and preparing your loved ones is critical really is another world with with you Commissioner thank you very much and the fellas Is there anything else you'd like Das they commissioner before we let him go just one final question do you have. Shane The it's interesting to point out wrote the bushfires here in Australia have that many causes most despond by lightning strikes accidentally by farming machinery or discarded cigarettes is the work of awesomeness and more nefarious causes I just want to ask you one final brief question Shane the it's so terrifying isn't it for people on the frontline because these fires often move with such ferocious speed full for people for residents ordinary people caught up in them it can be an absolutely horrifying situation they find themselves in. Absolutely and and Tom and Tom the guy knows a fart in the so for many years and they've been told he talking to men and women on the front lawn and communities they feel in their homes or people in their properties that get that get burned have already packed a far far the one thing over and I read guy under the extreme conditions is how volatile the far behind here is how frightening it is how quickly becomes and on. The landscape completely changes your visibility use law down to next to nothing if you're lucky a couple of majors the very dry at the ability of the brave It's a harrowing experience for people to on themselves in the path of a sponsor we not only Bush bars to I would any far actually the landscape starting out of our sort of dry conditions we invest a lot of time trying to to provide early warnings and alerts to people that moppy in Homs why the we all use these farms will also be stocking and developing and impacting on people's homes and livelihoods before we even have a chance to take the farm report far will have far far those on the front lawn trying to deal with it so it is probably new discord distressing for anyone that's plain involved and what what is also important is we are that far as far as we often travel. Generally the mind far problem or trouble much softer than size 10 kilometers an hour across fossil travel because of the fauna fuels I will travel 20 to 30 kilometers an hour across the landscape on the windy conditions you can't outrun the sort of pause and the forest was particularly not only used to my progressing very very ferociously through the through the forest of black sky but those embers that are going out ahead of my friends I can stop the whole for most of you for us ahead of them I'm far prompts many kilometers ahead of us which actually creates a complete the Russian of your life which all to. But we all joined up so we will have a mind far more beguiling exciting kilometers an hour what you suddenly got is many many dozens of days alike that all start tuning together which which gives I which gives. An amplified if you like progression of that bar front towards and even around community so it is a very hostile environment it's a very diverse environment to many people as the laws are that he is far far those and and community members that funds those in arms wide and obviously with a far starts and runs under certain conditions people can see whatever's in it's poppin and we saw wrong in 2001 foreign and I started in the lower Blue Mountains and in a less than a few hours you had destroyed the other $200.00 pounds that's the sort of power and impact of this often have a customized. Commissioner Shane Fitzsimmons from the New South Wales Rural Fire Service thank you very much for being with us thank you Phil we'll be back with. A new guest in a couple of minutes time it's just off to half past 2. On digital online small chunk. Is b.b.c. 5 live on the news and 5 Live comes from Rob was Thanks for all that Britain's ambassador to the e.u. Has written a resignation note edging his u.k. Colleagues in Brussels to challenge muddled thinking and ill founded arguments striving Raja's says the government needs to him an volleys views from your at the lawyer for a man who was racially abused by Chelsea fans on the Paris Metro has told 5 Live justice has been done for men have been given suspend his prison sentences in order to pay compensation to the victims by French court. The police watchdog says a gun's been found in the car carrying a man who was shot dead by armed officers in West Yorkshire 28 year old yes a young coupe was killed after officers stopped a vehicle on a slip road of the m 62 in Huddersfield and a team of senior military and civil medics is urging people to learn lifesaving skills in case they caught up in a terror attack in Britain they've launched an app is called Citizen aid and it gives advice on how to help treat anyone who's injured before paramedics can arrive now let's get the sport with Rob Schofield Hull City of sacked manager Mike feel and with the club bottom of the Premier League Archie football correspondent John Murray reports might feel and was part of Steve Bruce's coaching staff at whole city as they won promotion back to the Premier League last season by winning the Championship play off final when Bruce left only 3 weeks before the start of this season feel and stepped in as caretaker and after starting with 3 wins in league and cup was named August's manager of the month he's since guided them into the semifinals of the League Cup for the 1st time however there was a reluctance by the board to appoint him permanently once they did to the end of the season in mid October they promptly lost 6 want to Bournemouth have won only once in the league since then and so now whole city are looking for their 3rd manager since that promotion winning day at Wembley 7 months ago Olivier Giroud is inspired Arsenal once again chipped in to the air she was. was 7 7. A hit. Yes our survey has side trailed 3 nil at the vitality stadium before scoring 3 times in the final 20 minutes born without Simon Francis sent off with the score 32 The draw means Arsenal are 4th 8 points behind leaders Chelsea Paul Clement came from the stands to the dugout to watch his new club Swanzy city pull off early. 21 victory over fellow strugglers Crystal Palace the wind moves them a point behind some our dice aside and therefore safety 1st team coach Alan Curtis who took charge of the game was impressed we let him trusted on human prior to the game said a couple of the players a little bit of input at half time but really just to say you know well done you know who will be a plate and to make sure the check and I feel we kept on that we kept on playing and obviously was there with his run meanwhile Stokes to know when at home to Watford ended a 5 game winless run for them the Hornets though have only won one in 8 to rope a union where Eddie Jones says he sympathizes with Richard Cockrell and is open to the possibility of the sack Leicester boss joining Glenn's coaching set up Cockrell was dismissed as tigers director of rugby with the club 5th in the Premiership is a good fellow at the moment we're pretty well in there in terms of forwards is it always the possibility we never closed Jones also confirmed that Dylan Hartley will captain England during the 6 Nations as long as he proves his fitness Hartley is currently serving a 6 week ban for striking now Olympic champion Jack Lor has blamed British diving after his coach Adrian Hinchcliffe has opted to join Australia's team Hinchcliffe was in disputes over making his consultant role permanent He guided Lor and Chris me as to Team G.B.'s 1st ever limping diving gold in Rio feels like a massive insult to why it is and his legacy it was just being a bike race diving and in particular not at all much direct really overlooked how much a key role you can bridge by British swimming which includes British diving has been approached by the b.b.c. For comment but has yet to respond. The new year is finally here right then is this good you should do with a bit dusty and if you're making a few changes for the better the one for Dr mango pieces look at the shape it is camera then why not make the switch to digital radio as he just says Silas Marner Yes it's very much was for. Isn't smoking Jackie we did you 2 radio you can listen to all your favorite stations from 5 Live to b.b.c. Radio 6 Music. Ok who ordered the pizza if you have radio told to find out for b.b.c. Digital radio this is b.b.c. 5 live on the b.b.c. 5 player Radio 4 nights with Rod sharp. Things going jolly well and for their far against Pakistan this may come up in the next 20 minutes or so as we rejoin film Hello fellow thanks very much Rod Yes Our next guest has jogged heartily from the Sydney Cricket Ground it would be 2 or 3 miles from where we sat here in the center of Australia's biggest city Peter Manning he's a former journalist he's an author and he's an academic and a big cricket fan too Peter thanks very much for coming in cricket tragic. So you'd have loved yesterday when you Dave Warner's ton before lunch that would have been very special Well it was it was truly. Incredible to watch the way he paced himself over a 2 hour period and you looked at it and you went there is total commitment you know like he went at it for about 25 minutes and step which to base and then kind of calmed down which is quite something for. Warner. And and then just went at this polite shal pace until he had about 10 runs to get in the next 10 minutes at the end and. Thanks to a fumble by the Pakistani feels personally got. 100 right on the dot and Matt Renshaw 184 a lot of a lot has been made of where he's from Born in England of course and one of the the new breed of Australian players because the Australian team had a bit of a clear didn't they offered that series defeat here not so long ago by South Africa and with a very important series looming towards the end of this year with we ask how was that this new looking new look Australian squad shaping up with with that big challenge ahead and of course a lot to India before that yes well I think it was extremely brave for the selectors to say good bye to 4 of the old guys meaning you know in the. You know beginning of the thirty's and say you're not performing and you've had plenty of chances now we're trying a new god and you look at these guys and you know I mean I'm in the old level but even so you look at these guys and they look like they're 14 and 15 and we're behind the years and they're actually 181920 you know and they're all doing well even the ones that you know haven't actually done particularly well so far. You know it's a good group of people and it was very brave of our selectors to to you know take that extra. And come up with such good selections and the English guy was just fantastic he will ask all in that these things are no no no no no but but we might have him back I mean it's really interesting that 4 out of the current team from not not from Australia were born in Australia as Zimbabwe and. So. Yeah I mean it's good to say multiculturalism working in cricket and it's quite funny that there's been numbers of cartoons in The Australian newspapers about you know it was men Co Archer for instance who is Muslim and from Pakistan originally from Pakistan and we love him now because he's such a great cricketer you know I mean his Muslim faith has got nothing to do with it anymore you know we're all in love with cosmonaut was meant to watch or what was it like at the c.g. On that 1st day because the Sydney Test is very special but given the fact that the series is gone for Pakistan and they did capitulate so spectacularly on the last day of the Melbourne Test a few days ago was there a sense that this was going to be a lukewarm. Competition between these 2 teams and certainly the scorecard would bear that out with us. Straightly what $478.00 runs for the loss of just 5 wickets Yes Well I mean it often is the case isn't it that when the series is already won the winning team goes slow or cracks up a bit at the end and you know isn't really committed to the final game. Actually Warner just went out there and kind of went forward and took it I think as the season personal opportunity to you know break records but force they kept and Smith who was a running machine normally he was out quite quickly as was. So. I think the team was a bit kava Personally I think the same was a bit cavalier it maybe that was a good thing for you know some of the batsman and some of the others some of the tried and true people Smith it's true you know copped it but certainly it exposes the weaknesses in the Pakistani tame particularly fielding which was appalling. And you sort of feel for the Pakistani chain not having a home base playing out of the u.a.e. All the time and. You know there are good tape in Pakistan and there have been some spectacular people share our act our I remember as a young fastball it was fabulous quite apart from you know many other terrific bets people. Produce So Pakistan I'm not sure where they are in the writings at the moment I think the number 3 or something so yeah now it's been very. Extraordinary summit to be wiped off the map by South Africa and then what Pakistan off the map so I think all the writings in cricket at the moment a very fragile and vulnerable and you know a lot is happening so if you're on is very much looking forward to the Ashes next year. Peter hello it's it's Rod here Yes All right hello very nice to hear you happy New Year to you too Joe I was thinking of something Geoffrey Boycott told us when we caught up with him during the test and then the hour and he was saying you know Test cricket is just not what it was you know it's only really a test really feels like a test now and in England you know the foetus crowds you know and Lords of course how does it feel at the Sydney Cricket Ground to you I mean do people still come out for Test cricket. Yes they certainly do the Melbourne. Crowds you know the m.c.g. Was completely full and the crowds yesterday on their feet clapping I mean. When the young Englishman strike astray and got his 100 it was very it was sort of like a very emotional moment you know he was this guy getting a 1st century a very nice life it was obviously a dream of he is everyone was standing and I just maybe this is all fashioned of me but I noticed that his young. Other batsman came up and the 2 of them just how good I was thinking God to but they'd been hugging for kind of like a minute and a half a little 8 go you know. There was so imagine there was so much good feeling between these 2 young guys who might otherwise be competitive I suppose and the crowd just kept clapping I mean the whole of the Sydney Cricket Ground as was clapping and of course that all the papers in Sydney today strike. Totally full of the cricket on the front page Test cricket as what a day that was you know so I don't I don't. I'm a brother in law by the way of Geoff Lawson the former Australian fast ball owner and together we both think that you know the death of of Test cricket is. Over 8 as we say overstated. Well I know where you're here to talk to us about anything we care to ask you given but you are aware eeriest things at the moment yes I know I know well I know on other matters of course we're all transfixed by what's happening in Washington right now but are there any power else for that in a straight politics. There certainly are not as dramatic in the sense of the leader of the nation seems to be so inscrutable. And difficult to read is that with this is some kind of joke or whether it's really the beginning of a whole new. Leadership style but certainly yes. At the last federal election the extreme parties I suppose you'd call them. All did well and occupy a major percentage of the vote. And all sent you know the various. Members to the Australian Senate which has made life absolute Hill for the. Party that made it into government just made it by one seat into government namely the conservative party the Liberal Party under Malcolm Turnbull So it's made the part of the parliament almost unworkable and it shows that a stray ns have have swung to the extremes many astray and have swung to the extremes for solutions and I think that fits with bricks and fix fits with elections in Europe and it fits with Trump and. I think it shows a lack of faith in current institutions to cope with some of the major social cultural political economic. Problems that we've got and astray and certainly feeling that I mean I had I don't want to go on about this too much but I was actually handing out. Leaflets for the Labor Party here. And having left my journalism period behind a long time ago therefore you are allow yourself to do that yeah I do and and so I was I was doing some delay flitting for in the seat of Paramount which I suppose you'd call the dead center of Sydney it's in the western suburbs working class area and when the candidate that I was supporting was reelected. This guy came up to me. He had I think 2 teeth in the you know still remaining in the. Face he was obviously a working class guy he came up to me. Because I had read on for the Live party and he said you know what do you think I did my what do you think I did you know what I vote for and I said. Well I'm not quite sure why and he said Well I'll tell you what I'll give you a. Chance not to live a party so who will smile have voted for and I said Could it be one nation Pauline Hanson's One Nation and he said absolutely gutted you've got an in one. And you did that because you felt. You're out of a job you've got. No support you feel like you've got no support. You have no faith that the libel party will ever come back to support you. In any of that true he said dead right it brought you know they were you know they're hopeless I've given up on the Live party now to me there was a guy who absolutely should have been voting and I would have voted Labor for a very long time is about he's been forty's and and yet was passionately in favor of this party which is kind of racist. You know. Extreme in every sense on you know cultural matters social matters political matters and so on sound and he's been lost to the low party so I think that I'm not saying he's a representative of a whole you know sector of a strike but it's he certainly is a type it's a challenge in that and if you have politicians like Trump on their mind trust in government how do you get that trust back. Yes Well I think it's very difficult and to be honest I'm very critical of the Hillary Clinton from a far very critical of the Hillary Clinton campaign I I think the power of the Democratic Party did not get out the to the people that mattered did not get through and lifted apparently also lifted to the trade unions to do the hard work to get them out to vote well they should've left it to the try genius they should have got out there to all those states like pits are mean it's a shocker that Pennsylvania is not fighting Democratic favored psych. So I think there's a failure of the mainstream of the Democratic Party. There were many. Many people who are much more than had been predicted and I I therefore ask a lot of questions of the you know the pollsters who are being used by the major parties how did they not know that these people's was so alienated and I think that's true in Britain and Australia as well there's so many surprises that are happening and I wonder why there are so many surprises. In your in your kind of new job and and looking back I mean to you your role as head of current affairs with the a.b.c. For example there's a lot of emphasis now on on needing to sound so condescending to me needing to tell people where news is not fit well surely people have enough sense you know that we need to we need to empower people sadly but we need to trust people don't we rather them pretend that that he knows best all the time Well yes I do agree with you but I also think that there's not enough respect for for people. Putting up a flag about doubts about a particular policy direction and I think there's a lot of there's a lot of people out there who feel that they're not part of the conversation. About the mainstream and that they feel they feel like they have been pushed out by other inverted commas politically correct groups. And even I mean when Trump got elected I remember I remember thinking at a particular moment in that campaign once he attacked women the way he did and once those revelations about how he once treated women were it came out that that would have been the end of him you know I mean that must have been I remember feeling that must have been a killer blow who clearly it wasn't a killer blow and neither is where his comments about Mexico and Mexicans and on and on and on and and it really worries me that this will happen in Australia that that kind of demolition of political correct talk which. Would otherwise be known as civilized talk or you know sensitive talk about minorities or whatever. Will invade a stride in politics and the people say that's the way we should be talking about you know these groups and and all the rest of it because Trump got away with with such appalling public discourse and and yet so many people voted for him I think that's very scary. And Peter do you think the effect of Pauline Hanson and the One Nation influence in Parliament given that they are quite a sizable bloc now with 3 senators do you think that will infect the public discourse in the way that minorities the treating treated in everyday life on the train work that the racism that bubbles away in every country might just be more pronounced in Australia is as a result of what's happening at a political federal level. Do I Do I think leadership matters in every country and when part of the leadership of the country is allowing a certain kind of talk about other minorities it is extremely dangerous and we in Australia are saying that with the treatment of Adam Goodes the Aboriginal. Footballer who was booed roundly wasn't he were incessantly for many many months many many months and very directly from the stands you know shouted at him. Now I think at the time was the strain of the. And clearly. That was allowed to happen in the stand with that with that occurred and that kind of talk if it's given consent. You know really goes viral and takes off and happily you know a lot of places then it's the opposite and you know those have a big football reaction to the why he'd been treated but I certainly think that if you know the polling Hansen's of the world and the you know nativist politicians that we're getting around the world. Talk like that it sets off certain elements in the community which become violent or or all violent in a in a subjective way you know in the discourse way and you see it on trains and busses and you know. And Army big going up to someone in the in one of the stands at the s c j who is having a go at Indian astronomy and just take him tapping him on the shoulder and saying I made were all over that kind of talk just leave it alone and. He'd backed off. But heavy continue Who knows what. Who in the stand would have done and I think everyone's got a kind of take a bit of responsibility for all that. Good on you well done. 11 little incident and it all helps. Well Peter and Phil thank you both so much for being with us Peter Manning now at u.t.s. And said they. Felt. Of course and I said the bureau just to tell you Peter still you know 493 for 5 and. There was a there was a little wicket. You can make out the rest yourself things are going off they well . Let's see the same 5. 3 across the b.b.c. News comes from around the my knees and 5 lives Nikkei's ambassador to the sends out his resignation and in sport feel inside that hole while Arsenal find back to draw at Bournemouth. Is b.b.c. 5. Ks out going in has told his British colleagues in Brussels to give ministers the unvarnished truth from Europe so Ivan Rogers has written a lengthy resignation night in which he also talks about preparations for Bracks it all political correspondent is Tom Bateman He says the structure of the U.K.'s negotiating team and the allocation of roles and responsibilities to support that team needs rapid resolution and then goes on to talk about the negotiating experience in Westminster saying that serious multilateral negotiating experience is in short supply and was all the lawyer for a Frenchman he was racially abused by Chelsea fans says justice has been done after 4 men were given suspended jail sentences city Mansilla was pushed off a train on the Paris metro in February 25th the men have also been ordered to pay him compensation but unpriced set up the new racism at the bridge campaign I think what comes out of this now is I think that there. Confidence in fans to not tolerate it from our fans and in this is a significant moment because they'll be fans out there listening now who feel sick inside but I don't want to turn around to the guy behind them and tell them to stop and I think there's no more of a collective understanding as many cases millions of patients are not getting the basic care they need to manage their condition a survey by the charity found teeth missing out on yearly checkups tailored advice and lessons on how to use their inhale is n.h.s. England says it's important for patients to take Shad responsibility for dealing with their Ossman 4 to screw up plans for a new plant in Mexico in favor of further investment in the u.s. State of Michigan the food chief executive Mark Fields says the decision is partially a vote of confidence in Donald Trump's policies the vice president of the United Autoworkers Union is Jimmy settles I don't know if you really can understand really they're part of this investment this is equivalent to a new assembly plant $700000000.00 I was crying with joy because I never really thought it happened and if it did happen I just started they would take it to the west coast and not bring it here the president elect has also received credit for a climb down by Republican lawmakers they've scrapped plans to end the independence of the Office of Congressional Ethics after Mr Trump tweeted that it was the wrong priority. A team of senior medics has developed an app to help members of the public give emergency care in the case of a terrorist attack it's called Citizen 8 which at Harding is head of the National Counterterrorism Security office the 1st responders to that incident from a police perspective when inevitably be trying to deal with the people causing the threat they won't have time to help people who may have been injured and we know that that gap is vital for saving people's lives so we really really interested in the work of citizen and. Well the natural history museums Tippi the diploid this is set to be dismantled ahead of a national tour it will take a 6 person team 3 and a half weeks to box up his 292 bones sport now with Rob Schofield might feel and has been sacked as manager of whole city with the club bottom of the Premier League feel and signed a one year deal in October after taking temperature large in the summer the club has stated that a search for a replacement has begun an announcement will be made into course now having trailed 3 No Arsenal completed a dramatic comeback at Bournemouth as they rescued a point in a 3 all draw all of the gunners goals came in the last 20 minutes finally equalising off the cherries have been reduced to 10 men asked who are 8 points behind leaders Chelsea and 4th Paul Clement came down from the stands to see is new club Swansea City complete a late $21.00 win over fellow strugglers Crystal Palace the Swans in our points off palace and safety elsewhere Stoke ended a 5 game Willis run with a 2 nil victory over what food and Eddie Jones says he's open to the possibility of Richard Cockrell joining England's Rugby Union coaching set up this after he was sacked as director of rugby at Leicester this is b.b.c. 5 live on digital on the smartphone and tablet taking a look at the weather overnight staying cloudy but feeling less cold than last night of the conditions in the Northeast the some wintry showers and patchy frost in the South during the day patchy light rain across southwestern parts but try and brighter elsewhere with plenty of winter sunshine highs of 8 in London and 6 in Manchester b.b.c. 5 live we all need it we all do it but some of us just don't get enough of it. Can impact your relationships and your health so is it being taken seriously enough. There's always been something that we've taken for granted when I wake up in the morning an hour early if I wake up at around 4 am. Go online and take part in the 5 life sleep study we want to know what's keeping you awake at night. Last 5 life. On am and f.m. Are in the u.k. On digital and online. We don't give farmyard animals too much credit for intelligence trails of smart farm animals tend to be restricted to the clever scheming pig most notably an animal farm horses are faithful but incapable of deceit and sheep are just followers except of course for Aardman Animations show on the sheep who is a brilliant and section leader of many a farmyard rebellion but what can you say about chickens who just scratch their yard Well we've been underestimating chickens for years as it turns out they might be some of the cleverest of the law. Well you know that chickens are direct descendants of dinosaurs and at times there are arming less smart you'd be right think because chickens lying to each other they count and they have more capacity for logical reasoning than small children and some bigger children to a new study of chicken cognition has been published in The Journal animal cognition by Dr Lori Marino a senior scientist for the someone project Hello Dr Marino Hello I want to go a great pleasure to have you with us the field as you are prove to us that chickens are smart well I'll tell you in this review paper I looked at the totality of the scientific evidence on chickens in order to separate fact from fiction and what I discovered was that chickens actually show a lot of the same passage is that. Other animals particularly mammal shell. And so what's good for the mammals is good for the chickens as it goes. They do a lot of the same things that really intelligent animals do and so I think we've been underestimating them for a very long time there's a there's a cartoon a Disney animation very lavish Disney animation it's currently on the on the go motor and. Particularly stupid chicken in it who who just can't seem to even point themselves in the right direction and. The stereotype. Funny show give us they give us a kind of the lowdown on the chicken I mean when do they become clever and how do they show you that they actually understand a lot well chickens are very clever because they can do a lot of things one of the things they can do is figure out how to do something by watching another chicken do it and that's called observational learning and that's a pretty complex capacity and what struck me about chickens in reviewing all the literature is that they have such rich social lives they actually engage in a lot social strategies to try to get on top of the pecking order if you will they can to see the each other they can use each other in ways that are you know are very very clever and also they they show the capacity to be affected by emotions and feelings in other chickens in what way. Well if they are with other chickens who are experiencing a negative emotion for instance fear. They will adopt that. Feeling as well and that's that's called emotional contagion and that's a simple form of something called empathy which is the ability to actually feel for somebody else so it's they have that they says for the ability to feel feel something for other chickens and other animals and that's pretty complex it is I know a lot of your thinking is to do a section know that that chickens male chickens are pretty good. At going after it and keeping other male chickens out of the way yes yes and they used very very clever ways to do that and then the interesting part is that the dominant male is around the subordinate male. He will take advantage of that and then a subordinate male will then develop a counter strategy to take advantage of being taken advantage of. With. All of these chickens in a group who look like they're just scratching around as you said in the beginning of the program but actually there's a lot of things going on through their head in their behavior when you actually look at it and analyze it is really really quite complex I'm saying about another stereotype my Warner Brothers Foghorn Leghorn in live action should know who is such a kind of egomania hero and always say so strutting around you know as kind of the cock of the walk as we would say and yet. Again our call crawls more involved. Absolutely they are more involved a lot who are that it's been done it's been done on hens but it also applies to roosters and basically yeah they strut around but there's a real there's a logic and a reason behind the kinds of behaviors that they they met and they're struggling it's really not just strutting it's just playing it's trying to convince females that they are the best the best one to rally the best male around and so forth so there's there's all kinds of things that lead to a really rich social life like competition for females 6 and for food and to escape predators so again the idea is that you know when you look at chicken scratching around in the barnyard you know it's not just a bunch of chickens there's something going on there and the science tells us that what's going on is quite complex. And you say that they're also able to exert self-control. Never imagine a chicken can exhibit any self-control. Well what's interesting is that when you put them in a circumstance where they do have to exhibit self-control. Then they get it I mean learning about animals is all about giving them the opportunity to demonstrate something if they do have that capacity and so chickens do seem to have the ability to plan ahead for. For different under different tasks and at that again is a very very complex prosody. I remember going to get. A with a friend of my not long ago really and all the other chickens cleared out but I was one in particular who just would not come off the eggs was that chicken demonstrating superior intelligence because it realized that it was about to have to give up its eggs. I don't know what that chicken with thinking but it's possible we know from really a lot of studies that have been done is that hands are are mostly touched their chicks it's not a neutral think that them chew you know experience having their eggs taken away and having the chicks taken away they want to mother them and when their chicks are in distress they give it to stress as well so again the stereotype of the chicken who couldn't care less and no one chick from another is just again not true they're actually very very attentive mothers and the chicks looks exam the mother hen. To. Figure out how to react to different things that go on in their empowerment it's very much like what happens between any mother and any young child . While there we must leave you adult to Merida thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us appreciate it in 1981 almost a 3rd of all of the families and in England were in council homes a 3rd of English households were in council homes today that number is 8 percent so the question is Has the council has had its day reporting our u.k. Affairs correspondent Jamie Cook. In the heart of Birmingham servin landscape they're building for the future brick by brick behind the fence in the shadow of the 1960 s. Tower blocks the work force in high vision the hard hats are putting up new homes for housing crisis Britain and not just any new houses these accounts or houses. There are rare sites in many areas but in Birmingham they've built more council homes in the past 7 years than any other local authority Skidmore the city council is part of a team dedicated to tackle a housing waiting list that stands at 18000 people. The waiting list is long but we are we're building the homes as fast as we can so I mean the last financial year we've built over 550 homes so we are flat out. On the 6th floor of a nearby council block the Osmond family are at home they've lived here in 3 bedrooms for 8 years but with 5 kids they've long outgrown the space available now they've heard it's their time to move into one of building use new council homes exciting times. We've been trying and trying and trying and to get their house. We're going to expect to get a new house. Only it's a really. Cambridge is one of a handful of local authorities which are just qualifying for government money to start building new council houses but Louis Herbert Labor leader of the council warns it will take 20 years to fix a problem that's already been around for decades the fundamental problem is that government stops us doing what we need to do the total value of all of our housing is $1500000000.00 pounds if they just gave us the freedom to borrow against that we could build 10000 homes over the next 2030 years the government insists that the number of cancer. House is being built today is its highest rate since 1996 and there are billions of pounds available to fund them but the numbers a creeping back from an all time low in 2004 when the u.k. Bought just 130 council homes it's hard to believe that in 1953 that number was a high of 245000 homes for the baby boomers and beyond even my business damage these houses are almost like you know. They've done it as a serving hatch to the kitchen. Today it all looks very different on the edge of Birmingham city center a giant demolition unit is pulling down one of the aging tower blocks which were once the housing future there clearing the way for a different approach to modern social housing the surrounding streets once university council owned and now in private hands. But the real game changer for the council house came with Margaret Thatcher's government in 1979 she encouraged millions of tenants to become homeowners under the right to buy but most of the revenue generated from sales went not to local authorities but so the government and that meant not enough money to reinvest in new housing stock and knees are completed the people living in these already new council has a new has for sale we're building on read about 20 signs across the city this one is a little bit in the science office in Birmingham the future is literally mapped out on the wall the plan shows a mix of council and private housing the approach means selling some new build homes to pay for council houses they're using the council's own land to build on trying to streamline the planning process making homes available by any means necessary Jackie Kennedy of Birmingham City Council not only are we building high seas we're also bringing empty properties back in the city and we're also when necessary and using compulsion purchase orders so using a little kid may. When council houses can be built they do change drives in perming and the Osmonds have the keys for their new house. And for the kids a 1st look at their 1st garden. 0 2 big smiles all round but for most of the 1400000 council house waiting list a new home is still a distant dream. To have a cook a rare success in the council house landscape. Regular souce to Phil Williams program of 5 Live are familiar with the story of Gobi the dog a stray who followed the ultra runner Dion Leonard for over 500 kilometers of the run through the chain. Last summer while Goby was so faithful it in the n.t. Online I decided to try to bring her back to Britain with him and had to fundraise for the whole expense of bringing her back to the u.k. There have been some ups and downs but last night Goby arrived in Britain so we got sick a little look at that incredible journey Here's the on telling 5 lives Phil Williams how he 1st met Goby. 6750 kilometer raisen. China READY. Line I was actually looking to set off pretty quickly and I noticed this little dog was my favorite And so looking up at me I'm thinking about dog yesterday walking around the campsite that's a bit odd. I didn't think too much of it started to speed off and next thing I noticed those dogs with my heels still looking after me and I'm starting to think. But 25 miles. And she was still with me at the end I think credible. To explain the appeal. That's a very good person I'm actually not sure. What it was I had. To keep the sand in the rocks out during the rice and she can she she kept nipping at them I think I don't know if she could. She kept looking at them and as if to say Come on let's go quicker Let's go quicker something about those guys she covers actually was a quarter attention to begin with and then it just went from that I think so I'm at the end of day long way to you know it is all gone how do you reunite and so I think he was me 3 was exactly the same we started the rice together we ran together and during that stage I actually had to take across what survivors how did she find you will not on day 3 she suffered mandatory. Hi Ok so you actually made friends that night and she stayed with you yes she came into the camp with me at the end of day 2 and that was it from then she didn't leave my side. And shoot a new machine while she was a strike you know is she coming from. The start of the rice actually is in the middle of trying to visit the tents mountain range it's actually not very close to very much at all and Yes 'd it's just to take from the u.s. Beyond Yeah absolutely she's definitely a strain has been living rough somewhere and thought This is a good thought on going to go and 'd try surveys because the people how many miles she do by your side 125 Cuomo does out of it right so she did half of the rice she did 4 stages she couldn't do the silver star just because by this time I'd actually crossed over the mountain range in the desert which was 52 degrees that would have been to hold she would have done it if it were the letter and actually what the white organizes did was take it to the finish line and she's white for me I could say as I was running in on those 2 occasions and it was just just amazing to see sort of stand up and say me and come running towards me what kind of effect does that have on you I'm a rock so imagine you're pretty neck and at that point I forgot about everything that was my legs are in pain and you know I was hungry and hadn't drunk much and I was heartened and I just fice actually just sort of put a big small in my size and I was cheering those sort of periods that I realized something else than just a little dull following me now I know that you've gone through this crisis finding a pail to cover the medical in quarantine costs to get go the pool to the to the u.k. To live with you and in Edinburgh and that's been a success but it's going to take 4 months isn't a high can you be certain that she will be fickle and find someone else to Rome. As a good point maybe. She's going to have a great having hearing that from the cult sort of the mountain range so she's going to be rolling. To the weather up here and I walked around as well sorry now House House is going to get plenty of attention that's for sure the crowdfunding pace has actually made this happen and rewrite as the minimum toggery made it 24 hours which was amazing money's coming from all around the world phenomenal I was looking out the moment of the local rice fixes for the 4 deserts organization that organizes Rice's gargoyle someone there is actually 'd looking out for and we're just going through the process now of getting someone from Beijing out to pick her up and get her into quarantine and startle a medical check certain agent are going to ask you how you saw it on the name but it's pretty obvious isn't it. Some American dollars according to one the 1st day and that Congress stuck for a little while but does it was a bit more relevant than everyone started calling it that that's what she's now and has now so I think it's a perfect one for when I was a bit of a hick up on the plan because Goby actually got away from the race fixers Holme. The only way that deal could get her back was to fly it to sex far she only seeing 'd joy. She's run out of the house and actually just gone missing from the perspective of. The author of tried to probably find she was to actually be picked up this way to call into Beijing has been a bit of a process to actually take that into place but. She's being ripped off by someone here just to a genuine case of. Fortunately a fading at the moment you sound hop rising from a problem. It's tough it really has been tough and lost on was probably one whilst I always. Had my moments of ups and downs but. Considerably down to 9 and just trying to remain positive for one else as helping out a tidy dog a huge city seemed impossible but amazingly the next night Dion was back on the air with some fantastic news. Just come back and pictures of Paris and of the others looking at some of the pictures to begin 'd with I was like yes it looks like I read here with. A couple of other boats as a rule and READY it was actually her until we got. A walk through the door and she was the 'd child didn't say a word when I walked in the squad. Around 10 people in there already and she came running over towards me quickly ran around my waist jumped up on me. There is love again and. maybe 'd for her just amazing feeling and so grateful for the help it's important for her to hear your stories really touched people they are not at my you feel. He's touched a lot of people she isn't a star the whole world is just for the love of. This summit about us. As a source of our. Surrounding a Hello I'm. Sorry sorry for for everyone to be healthy. Throughout the whole process and are we kind of. Suppose. This is my last the next time Phil spoke the audit was a towbar and there was actually living in Beijing having taken a 6 month sabbatical to begin the quarantine process for Goby Goby Bach for the 1st. When I finished the rights regardless of the situation I actually was thinking to myself. That's the I can't wait to get out of this country I'm never coming back a lot of my time here but I was like ready to go I just wanted to go back. And things just changed completely and now I'm living here I'm a really big fan of being after people have been phenomenal I'm doing lots of local charity work with a sort of slogan adopt don't shop charm raise awareness of people to take animals from adoption centers instead of buying them from puppy farms you know really using his voice or story to do that as well. Seeing credible evidence. That was here in the back yes this is a growing. Wild incredible end to 26000000 that you probably had what use could nothing come in could really has been a sort of life changing experience and it's been such far more right than I think I said every time I've been on the show the support from around the world has just been unbelievable I know because speaking to you on this program how much you love that dog right but do you think the Gobi knows just how much you give enough to try and provide a home for. I don't know I think that she must definitely look at things and she sleeps on the bed with me and I would imagine she's never sat on the bed with anyone before and been inside half as much as she has being with me and she gets spoiled rotten I'd imagine there's a fed inside of things this is pretty good of I've chosen or I think this is a good ride this time starting with this one child to run away from. The goods. And of Abu Dujan signed a book deal to tell the whole story and at some point go be actually needed an operation. That Hippocrates enlisted to the likelihood that she was hit by Cottle soon or done something to say hello when she was missing that the actual gunman yes when she was missing. That was one of the 1st things that we actually know I just was aware munches stance and because I'm so depressed sort of came here and punched him as quickly as he couldn't that was a simple enough all price and took a couple of hours to take but the recovery process took $3.00 to $4.00 wakes him as the bulk in terms of getting enter certain code for the cover and just sort of starting out with the squabble but this is tugging on the laces pretty please get going and says running around our seats back to where she was before although she's a little chunky emasculate No way through my cupboards but on the people around so she could do with a bit more running before she started joining on the shelter we were man thinking I must get myself adult the way we were having conversations that hymens traditional had cited the nods to dogs here where we live in adverse just not possible to have a big dog I was kind of coming to grips of having to deal with a little dog you know the little dog some aoa sort of yeah a little. Completely different because I cannot I just sort of labs around and I could cuddle exceptional to go become to make that decision for me. Just going to the she's going to the sort of. Having to get used to cattle are as well which is going to be fun so I think that could be a bit of a bit of jealousy there between the Tillicum to begin with that I'm hike over they've worked it out and we sort of both said Lane is a happy family. Yes they fell and Goby the dog arrived in Edinburgh to begin their new life together and they spoke to Phil one more time she's settling very quickly she's got a cat. So I think she's getting on pretty well which is which is good so you know what the other side that lost or there was room for everyone there was I So I think there's a little bit of jealousy there when I have a cat. Too impressed with that so I've got a bit 'd of words to keep up the go. Yeah in general everything's pretty pretty good just after half past 3. Digits along the line smart funny and sometimes this is b.b.c. 5 live there is a news culture Vanier Rama so I've been Roger's oppressions outgoing ambassador to the e.u. Has told his u.k. Colleagues in Brussels to keep challenging muddled thinking and speak truth to power and the resignation night he said ministers need to hear unvarnished vs about Bragg's it from around Europe the lawyer for a man he was racially abused by Chelsea fans on the Paris Metro has told 5 Live justice is being done for men is being given suspended prison sentences and ordered to pay compensation to the victim by a French court. People are being urged to learn life saving skills in case they caught up in a terrorist attack in the u.k. a Group of senior military and civilian doctors have launched a new app called Citizen aid giving advice on how to give 1st aid to victims and Janet Jackson has given birth to her 1st child at the age of 50 the singer has had a baby boy and is said to be resting comfortably Rob Schofield has the support whole city of sax manager Mike feel and with the club bottom of the Premier League Archie football correspondent John Murray reports My feeling was part of Steve Bruce is coaching staff at Hull City as they won promotion back to the Premier League last season by winning the Championship play off final when Bruce left only 3 weeks before the start of the season feel and stepped in as caretaker and after starting with 3 wins in league and cup was named August manager of the month he since guided them into the semifinals of the League Cup for the 1st time however there was a reluctance by the board to appoint him permanently once they did to the end of the season in mid October they promptly lost 6 want to Bournemouth have won only once in the league since then and so now whole city are looking for their 3rd manager since that promotion winning day at Wembley 7 months ago Olivier Giroud has inspired Arsenal once again chipped in to the air she was. 7 was. Was. Was. Was Yes our survey his side trailed 3 nil at the vitality stadium before scoring 3 times in the final 20 minutes born without Simon Francis sent off with the score 32 The draw means Arsenal are 4th 8 points behind leaders Chelsea Paul Clement came from the stands to the dugout to watch his new club Swanzy city pull off a late 21 victory over fellow strugglers Crystal Palace they were in moves them a point behind some advices side in there for safety 1st team coach Alan Curtis. Who took charge of the game was impressed we met him this afternoon he came in prior to the game said a couple of hours of the players a little bit of input at half time but really just to say you know well done you know how well be a plate and to make sure the check and I feel we kept on kept We kept on playing and obviously was the latest one meanwhile Stokes to know when at home to Watford ended a 5 game winless run for them the Hornets know of only 11 in 8 to rope a union where Eddie Jones says he sympathizes with Richard Cockerill and is open to the possibility of the sack Leicester boss joining Glenn's coaching set up Cockrell was dismissed as tigers director of rugby with the club 5th in the Premiership is a good fellow we're pretty well in terms of. You know was the possibility that we never closed Jones also confirmed that Dylan Hartley will captain England during the 6 Nations as long as he proves his fitness Hartley is currently serving a 6 week ban for striking. C.b.c. 5. Weeks you'll meet just with. This is your football station tonight's 7 45 pm along the East Coast Chelsea the Premier League on b.b.c. 5. First for news and the best law school this is b.b.c. 5 Live. With. He is a hugely influential contemporary music maker one styled the brainiest guy in pop Brian Edo talks to Stephen Sackur in this edition of heart. My guest today commands a prominent place in the pantheon of musical innovators of the past 50 years Brian Eno now in his late sixty's was an author school student fascinated with the potential for pushing the boundaries of music and visual odds by marrying the 2 together by way of new electronic technology is he tasted mainstream pop success in the early seventy's as a member of the achingly cool band Roxy Music but he soon tired of the world of the Top 40 and developed a new sound which he described as ambient music it was atmospheric lead without obvious melody or and it was dismissed by its critics as Muzak elevator music but Brian Eno's originality attracted a host of big musical names who wanted his help to develop their own sound they would Bowie was one talking heads u 2 and Coldplay all beat a path to his door ino pushed his artistic sensibility in different directions huge video installations and the development of what he called soundscapes using computer software has just released a new album loosely based on the sinking of the Titanic which is again got the critics wondering how to label him a musician composer artist was Brian Eno welcome to Talk you've got a body of work a musical creativity that spans almost 5 decades and Yad you have been the pos describe yourself as an anon musician what do you mean by that well I guess when I started using that. I had appeared at a point where there was a huge stress on musicianship and there were bands playing very complicated things with their backs turned to the audience and I didn't come into music from that route I didn't come into music from learning an instrument and then. Standing up and writing songs on it I really came out of painting that was what I studied and I realized that contemporary music contemporary studio practice in particular was really a way of painting with sun and so for me it was quite a natural transition to move into music plus at that point you know you had recording studios and the whole set of new instruments electronic instruments that you still had to have some basic musicianship to you know I mean did you play instruments of one sort or another oh no not really I mean I've very poorly play the guitar and keyboards but really not for a work of can you read music you know at all but actually most of the people I know concrete music so that's that's not unusual most most of us don't read me as I mean it's fascinating to think of you are seeing music is sort of meeting painting and visual art somewhere in the middle. Can you explain to me more about that sensibility how that works for you I mean when you when you a creating a sound are you seeing it sometimes yes and I'm off I'm thinking in sort of pictorial sculpture or terms a lot of the time I think of thinking of a musical space of some kind of what populates that space so I'm not usually thinking in terms of this isn't a minor and that's a g. Sharp and I don't know any really what those things mean and I don't really work that way at all so I'm just thinking back to to the beginning I don't know you often say I don't like to look back too much but you know I can still picture you in Roxy Music with the long hand alongside Bryan Ferry and all the others in the band playing music you were performing do not believe in performing an evil. I don't particularly like doing it myself because most of what I do is really done in a recording studio and it's rather hard to take that on to the stage. It's a little bit I think like asking a painter to do a picture on stage for you that it's not a performance art in a sense painting and what I do isn't really a performance art I make I make music in the way somebody paints a picture I've had things take things away stretch them you know very much like a graphic artist but I'll tell you what let's begin by actually listening to the most recent sound you have created when you've got an album out just come out called The Ship Let's just listen and we'll get a flavor of what you're doing right. In the room. Is that what most of us would now know is ambient music how would you describe it I think you could call us. I mean that ambient is a word that I came up with usual invented Yes in the well I I can't really say that I invented the music more and more people had been trying to work in an area of a sort of spacious environmental type of music I gave the movement a name really so I can't claim that I invented the music but I did identify it as a separate category I guess it listening to it you know the features of it that strike me now that it's. It's the sort of music that doesn't really seem to have a narrative as such it's sort of open ended and one gets the feeling you could listen to a bit of it and then sort of zone out for a bit and then pick it up again. Is that the idea of it yes so I think of it again like a painting you don't sit and look at a painting all the time it's on your wall you sometimes look at it and you sometimes can pay deep attention to it and then you turn away and do something else you know the picture is always there but your attention is not always necessarily there and I wanted to make a kind of music that operated more like that that didn't demand continuous focused attention. But in a sense I've never before come across a musician who if that's what you call yourself and we can debate that is somebody who created sound who says you know what I create this sound deliberately with the idea that people often won't really be listening to it that's right yes that's my mission. Sounds absurd why bother if you don't really want to listen well what I do want to do those to make music that when they do listen is very rewarding So I think that's a little bit different from what's happening with for instance music which if you do start listening closely to it you find there isn't much to listen to what a lot of your critics claim that you have produced in the past I mean some of them . Anyway the album titles themselves are perhaps an indication of what you're about you know I think one of your early ambient albums Music for Airports suggests that very fact that you'd written something which you felt would be suitable for a place where people are really concentrating on you're rushing from a to b. Worried and stressed about catching a flight and perhaps your music might help them stress or calm down I don't know but but it seems a decent thing to do but that isn't the definition of you know even worse than music elevator music Yep Yep Well I I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with having music in elevators or airports but I still think that it's a it's a site that composers could address so when when that idea appeared of elevated they to music people just took already quite bad music and made it a little bit worse and then put it in elevators I thought what about taking this job seriously just like you know you can have people who just paint their walls with any old color they want or you can have people who think a better interior design as they called to think how can we make this really work well so what I'm saying is that we use music in all sorts of places all the time most of the time. We don't think very well about what we're doing with it so I want to say that composes should be responsible for that job they should take the responsibility of that job seems to me there's another interesting thing going on with your music and it ties into a wide a cultural point you've been making for years now which is that you feel there's a real sort of lack of attention span about so much of what we do and what we create and I think you've been involved with his lawn now movement which calls for a much sort of momentous a longer term approach to human life frankly in all forms of creativity your music doesn't really have a beginning a middle and an end I mean it just feels like it. I could go on forever yes and in fact my ambition always was to make pieces of music that were theoretically infinite in length so so I invented another word after ambience which the other word is generative and this is music that is made by a set of instructions essentially a set of rules and somehow produces itself for a very very long time by others fascinates me because it seems I mean obviously this is you in recent years using the very latest computer technologies and software so you in essence sort of load some thematic instruction into a computer and then the actual music the sound is a sort of randomly generated. Variation on the themes that you've laid down so you actually haven't written the specific sounds that emerge I haven't written and furthermore I won't ever hear all of it either because of course the piece can carry on creating itself out of my presence so you fundamentally undermined our notion of what a composer is yes I think that's exactly right I wasn't again the 1st person to do this this was also part of the brief of people like Terry Riley and Lamont young and Philip Glass all of those kinds of composers who started working not with specific pieces of music but with sets of instructions for making pieces of music and the idea was that that's like a little genetic message like a seed so you plant the seed and it turns into something you can't exactly predict what it will turn into on a philosophical level I find absolutely fascinating because it means at any given moment when you are hearing that sound it is unique and may well never be reproduced ever again yes that's sort of something that's really interesting on a practical level what does the audience really get out of these extraordinarily random nuances of the. 1st of all they're not they're not completely random in in the same sense that any the seed of a flower isn't completely random that seed is something that has slightly randomized in a large set of instructions that have been carried on for many generations at that station of pattern it's yes it's adaptive so so it's not just any old set of sounds doing any old thing it's actually quite a honed process within which there is a certain amount of what I call probability rather than randomness. It can behave in some different ways than the permutations can be different from one moment to one to another. But the way I try to explain it to people is we tend to think of composers as sort of architects of sound so an architect being someone who specifies every part of a building every door handle every every every little bit is consciously created That's right so that's how we tend to think of composers but what I'm saying is that we should stop thinking of them as architects and start thinking of them as gardeners people who plant things and then those things grow and have their own life separate from the intentions and desires are actually best raised sound landscaping Yes. Again I'll be brutally honest sounds somewhat pretentious but but that makes sense to everything good sense potential. Well you're a you're a landscaper not not yes I was a I think so yes that would be I would be quite happy with that description yes let's actually take some of those fascinating thoughts and apply them not just to sound but the visuals as well because as you said you actually went to art school you came out of a visual sensibility before a musical one and you have done loads of installation on using light in different ways it just strikes me with all of the ways you approach creating and. Your art you are embracing the idea that it is. It doesn't really have a minority of it it's just then there is a sort of background and people can take it or leave it you know most artists it seems to me are driven by a particular unique vision that they want to get down whether it be on paper or canvas musical score or whatever that was nation but it isn't a narrative vision my vision is very much to do with. What for me was the great understanding about evolution theory that complexity arises out of simplicity and I think that is such an important message because I'm an atheist and I think one of the most difficult things that atheists have to say to the world is that all this complexity and all this beauty came from the bottom up not from the top down well I want to make a kind of art that proves that that's possible I want to say look here are the elements there quite simple I'm being absolutely transparent about what they are and now I let them permutate and it makes this extraordinarily complex then absolutely antithesis of the idea of the artist the creator as a sort of god like figure in terms of what he is doing yes but here's what I want to if you don't mind look back a little bit at your own past because it seems to me in your primary business of your your 1st real creative business which is sort of rock'n'roll contemporary music you worked with a lot of people thinking early days of Bryan Ferry and Roxy Music but then your collaboration with Bowie for example who were in a sense the appear to me all of the sort of talented arguably genius individual authors and trying to get their vision down and you worked with them very happily get very happy so you want out of sync with them even though there was sort of playing God in a way that you don't believe something not for you doesn't work for you it doesn't work for me it's not what I want to do but I don't read other people doing it I see those people as sort of theatrical presences people who who designed themselves in the sense to be set up the players you know and the theater was the whole history of rock music the whole scenario of rock music that that is an interesting phrase or 3 actually called player but some would make much greater claims for a man like Bowie or you know and thinking of other great musical artists as passed recently prints you know that the claim. As for those 2 would be that they were transformative in that in some ways they were genius did you buy the idea that there are individuals artists of that caliber can be classed as transformative and genius I I think there are there are clearly some artists who make much more difference than others but I have another word which is seen yes which is s c and I us and I think of that as the intelligence of a whole community and what I see particularly in pop music is that there are whole scenes of all sorts of interesting infertile people interacting and occasionally they come up with something and that something can manifest in in a David Bowie or Prince or me or but in a way those people are manifestations of a whole lot of ideas that are around they didn't as I would never claim they didn't invent it all themselves you know we're always looking at all of our history and making a new synthesis of it so if I may intrude into your personal part a little bit when you were working with Bowie I think it was the late seventy's Berlin trilogy albums like Heroes which you know seminal albums and you would you call yourself the producer on that album what what was your role because you know this creative. Effort but you are describing is fascinating we think of Bowie and we listen to his music we think that's Bowie's music but is it really Bowie's music. It's so hard to talk about this because really especially in the popular arts everybody draws ideas from everywhere so whatever you're doing it's really a repackaging of thousands of things you've heard and something that you've added to it all the at what you've added might just be the way in which you put it all together how much did you add to what he did well I think 1st of all I wasn't the producer I should say Tony Visconti was the producer of those outcomes and what was how would you describe your I was collaborating with David so he David had been listening to a particular album of mine and I am but my 1st ambient are I'm actually called discrete music. For months before that and he had said that that was the only thing he could listen to for a long time this is when he was getting over some very problematic period in his life and I was working I was just at the beginning of working with this idea of landscaping music and he wanted to go there he wanted to do something like that and asked me to work with him so really we I would set up sort of sonic scenarios for him and he would react to them. It's a fascinating discussion because it gets the heart of what creativity is and collaboration you all but we I think undisputedly is a fascinating and great popular artist you know you also have done work on some of the greats or commercial pop albums of our time from Coldplay you to a whole bunch of others as well. Is that a very different process or for you is that the same sort of creativity going into something that you know is some poppy being designed just to sell millions of records. I think that they are inviting me to work with them for the same reason so so they want to go somewhere different I mean people don't realize that artists don't just want to have the same hit over and over again they just don't want to it's boring you know the thrill of being an artist is going somewhere that you haven't been before now if you've been in a band for a very long time everyone gets into habits and things tend to turn out the same over and over again so we can hear that in a lot of bands music is it's a reprise of the same old thing yes and of course record companies generally used to encourage that because they wanted more hits for me so yes so they would think why can't you do another one like that and they would hire producers who would say to the band let's do another one like that how can we make this song sound more like that song that was a hit well I never did that really I just I was always interested see what was new for the band what was exciting for them and to try to make something of that so I think that's why I was asked to produce here no loss of records where your still very busy and we talked about the ship your latest project but I wonder where you see the most exciting arguably the most transformative. Music maybe other art forms to happening right now what what really excites you as being new innovative taking creativity in a different direction Well there's a whole class of things that I really have a little contact with and don't understand very well which are complex games like World of Warcraft and so on really you see a lot of creativity there in gaming and I think this is this is really the future in a way for for some big new interactive art form really and I'm going though Bob you know that I don't play on my kid. There is sometimes I would sort of dismiss it as just money making commercial ventures but let's have pop music was thought of for very many years and at the beginning that's how everything is for the beginning you know what are you getting into that sort of creative spirit not really I mean I hardly understand it but I just know it's something important it is not for my generation but I know that's where something is going to come from I have very little to do with it I just realize I'm 67 I have the. World of Warcraft and a final thought for you and it goes back to you know the movement long now that you've been involved with the idea that we need to think about a different time scale of for the way we behave on this planet but the way we create to. When we think in those terms whether you think your music and my God you've been prolific whether it will stand the test of centuries rather than just decades Well it's an interesting question I mean I'm already surprised that it's stood the test of decades I have to say I I would not have expected that Music for Airports for example would still be selling records it still is and even earlier things are as well so so I'm already in the plus from the Plus it's far as I'm concerned.

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