Sex offenses are correspondent in Australia is filming us George Pell is off to prison starting a 6 year term but it is worth noting to do that George Pell's legal team has started an appeal against these convictions and that appeal is expected to be heard in court in early June Boeing's 737 MAX plane has been banned from the U.K. And the rest of the European Union following the Ethiopian Airlines crash which killed 157 people the Civil Aviation Authority says it's a precautionary measure after the model was involved in 2 fatal accidents in 5 months unless you looked after Professor Stephen Hawking has been struck off the nursing register Fadia is in his care push it out he worked for the scientist for 15 years the professor's family welcomed the decision the Met Office is warning of heavy rain and strong winds brought on by storm Gareth it's moving east over Northern Ireland into Scotland a milf west England 4 classes are expecting winds to reach 80 mph and it could cause some rush hour disruption travel disruptions are and the Desperate Housewives actress from the city Huffman is among dozens of people have been arrested in the U.S. For allegedly helping students to cheat their way into top universities our correspondent in Ally is Don Johnson she's accused of paying more than $11000.00 to get her daughter into a top university through this scheme which helps children cheat at exams and wrote in coaches who were coaching outlet except those universities to get other children in on athletic scholarships. Austin here now with your sports a ruthless Manchester City tour shall cut to pieces said the as he had to see them cruise into the quarterfinals of the Champions League they put 7 past the German side to go through it 12 winners on aggregate things were much tighter in Italy though you Ventus needed an 8th Champions League hattrick from Christiane are now though to come from behind to beat Athletico Madrid 32 they went through on aggregates Aberdeen will face Celtic in the semifinals of the Scottish Cup after they beat Rangers and I broke for the 2nd time this season hearts beat Partick Thistle in that quarter final replay Leeds have gone back to the top of the Championship after a comfortable 3 nil win at Reading Blackburn Sheffield United in Sheffield Wednesday or one or Bristol City and switch Drew 16 to one shot as the island won the Champion Hurdle on day one of the Cheltenham Festival but they too could be under threat with high winds forecast track inspection at 8 o'clock this morning and world number one Novak Djokovic is out in the 3rd round of Indian Wells he was beaten in straight sets by Philipp Kohlschreiber. This is B.B.C. Radio 5 Live on digital B.B.C. Sound small speaker and. Very windy Snipes across the U.K. a Storm carriage approaches have showers to some remaining windy tomorrow 5 running today with 30 spouse but also the showers kind of rain expected to push into the northwest later on in the day I suppose. Just to say thanks Chelle for the festival we're really going to see them rise to the top this week and see really what they're made of structure yourselves and this is the real adventure every race life will be spiritually enrich the one of the country's great sporting celebrations can see a friend on 5 life and find sports extra. Help or not I'm FAR FAR FAR Dawson at a bio coming out with this well as Mrs Eddy boy I would say I'm so sorry I didn't mean to make you cry. Or that says so but why do we say Sorry son has to be said too much by Brits of course also the morning headlines read Britain in crisis is that I would see in the United States following last night's defeat in Parliament for prime minister of a meaningful Bracy vote would be really interesting to see how. Cost is defined and how they take up the topic or what they say about it and we'll get the week's news from Russia where President Putin is polishing his feminist credentials Yes you heard right. So 1st of all that amongst all the other things you want to talk about I think we've got so about saying sorry we say too much already or is Elton John Pabst said it best. The sound of. Sabra seems to be. Just. Yet you see these stories that he could say a lot said if it was cow Thompson she was saying I'm so sorry but is it always the case let's face it one of the things the British are famous for is saying sorry we say we apologize when it's even off Fuld's we can apologize for anything even when it's not our fault one person who thinks we should be saying the word a lot less is Professor Meyer divine of it ch who's done a TED talk about it and it's over use and has written a book called Hey ladies stop apologizing Professor Maya is not just ladies apologize because it's bloods too why do we why do we do that why do we do it so much. Absolutely thank you so much for having me on it's not that we are apologizing we are over apologizing it has become our habitual way of communicating and there are so many different words and phrases that we can use that don't have to dim our light one of the most common critiques I get is oh it's just Canadians Oh we're just being polite doesn't it just nice and it's not that I want us to stop apologizing I don't want has to be jerks but I do want to bring attention to how often and for what reason we are apologizing. For the jaws are absolutely absolutely OK So let's talk about. Some of the research behind apologies and then we can break down how we can change these apologies so Canadian research shows that when both men and women deem a transgression to be offensive they'll both apologize so it's not that men avoid apologizing but they just have a really high high threshold of what they consider to be an apology worthy moment whereas women are the opposite we apologize everywhere we go we're constantly on the lookout for potentially hurting someone's feelings if you ask a woman it's all the women listening right now have you ever said some of these phrases Absolutely they're good agree sorry to bother you so I can ask a question Sori can I reach over story my house is a mess oh my gosh so sorry my car's a mess I haven't had a chance to clean up sorry to intrude Sorry to barge and sorry to interrupt so is this a good time sorry May I come in sorry I'm so emotional so I guess just it goes on and on and I don't want to be story for having an opinion for wanting to talk about her ideas for the Don't be sorry for the spaces. If we take up it's OK to disagree it's OK to have a dissenting viewpoint and we can turn this apologetic lingo into something more confidence inducing given that as you describe it we apologize for too many things maybe it is easier to start with the things that we should apologize for the less. Should we apologize for OK when you've really truly hurt someone or cause them pain . That just when it's a really worthy offense not for bumping into somebody I mean you can easily switch that for excuse me pardon me you go ahead your turn but if you were beginning and ending your sentences was sorry sorry sorry about that oh so sorry my apologies sorry don't be surprised at the end of the day if there's nothing left of your confidence because we've given away our confidence we have dimmed our light with every needless useless apology we give out and all the oh go ahead I know you good I was just going to say that in my classrooms the very 1st word a student says before they ask a question or they ask me to repeat something so. This is going to sound silly sorie I don't understand what you're talking about sorry can you repeat that and those sorries truly chip away at our confidence confidence is a muscle it is a muscle that strengthens with the use and and there's no research that shows apologies really make us feel good at 1st putting out 50 apologies a day. If a student comes to one of your lectures a minute later should they say sorry. No it's OK Life gets but you had to they know they haven't hurt your feelings I mean they knew the schedule they knew way in advance what you're going to start your lecture and they get there a minute late and everybody knows it's better to be 10 minutes early than a minute late Should they will apologize absolutely not they should come in sit down and start taking notes and start listening I'm more interested in my students coming to class than whether they are going to apologize for being late apologizing but you will interrupt you will accept it would but you would accept that some of your colleagues would expect an apology you know I mean there is some student comes in let's say 5 minutes stages who is into this see in relation standing there what do you take me for immediate. Knowledge or 5 minutes later you know even apologize for just apologize to me apologize to all the obvious shootings in the clothes he bowed to get ever in turn but you don't know what has occurred in the student's life 10 minutes before they just got in there because you said the rules are if you hurt somebody else's feelings so I'm sorry I'm sorry that you know you your relatives passed away and you were involved in a car crash before and 5 minutes late you should apologize for absolutely not you know why because my feelings were hurt I removed my ego from the situation it's not about me it's a learning environment I want them to learn I want them to grow in my class I'm not concerned if they come 5 minutes late students get up all the time they get up they go they have to go to the bathroom they have to take a phone call they have to eat that's it's fine it's fine. I'm more concerned with how often and for what reason we are apologizing and can we say different can we say different words for instance do you know that there's actually a Google Chrome plug in for your computer that will alert you to all the unnecessary apologies we usually give in an email I didn't know I didn't know yes so instead of and this is developed this was developed by women because there was such an issue with women who noticed an error and then they would fall over themselves apologizing and you know what you can just switch it and say thank you so much for bringing that to my attention I'll fix that thank you for fly can this that was great I appreciate you bringing this to my attention we don't have to fall over ourselves apologizing. Clearly is a cultural thing as well you know in the United States and the New York for ages it is a sign of weakness you know. Yeah damn right you apologized. About my Mercury X. And I have to call it just all Americans over 300000000 of them for that but here in the U.K. If if I bothered to you or you bump into me we both apologize where there's actually one person is guilty of bumping into the other just you know a bit but you never know that but you never know. For that because I was actually trying to get out of your way Absolutely and that is one of the most common useless needless apologies we get is when somebody else bumps into us we automatically apologize that is that is How will how unconscious these apologies are and why not which it for excuse me you know what happens if you don't apologize Well I dunno if you're familiar with the song initially Perkins but of his did it with his which was you know you can do what you want but don't step or mobilise wage. When you step on some of these blue suede shoes you generally a den of about Canada but where you get into Iraq especially Darren's especially if they just bought those blue suede shoes with their wage wage packet and you step on it when they when they buff themselves up for a night out you better apologize because it defuses the tension so instead of getting slapped around the face for stepping on the Blue Suede Shoes OK I'm not happy about it but at least you apologized Absolutely but would you feel differently if a woman said to you excuse me I hope I didn't mess up those blue suede shoes if you do look so fantastic in them that be OK for you of course it would. Be they can do you know not just with politicians necessarily. I mean God that was an apology really it was a sweet talk you were and you know I was on something that's all we can do the English language is so beautiful how many words are there over 300000 words but yet we are fixated we are obsessed with sorry sorry sorry now we can switch it up I don't fish a Spears's or any of his characters say sorry ones do their own think of any character in shades with saying story you know. They'll say everything else for the story you know. Obviously had a very high Suresh will for what he. Did maybe they didn't say sorry so much in those days maybe it's something that we've. As a kind of a modern way of gameroom things for instance if somebody texts you and you don't get back to them right away what's the 1st word you're saying. Sorry or apologize to G.'s you know it was the same thing yeah but apply I mean for what you were on the air you were working you were driving you were having dinner in right but it's just expectation and I think we just need to change our mindset around that when I live in such a society why change is a brotherhood. Absolutely absolutely broke every single time I give a talk all have a lineup of women who will come up to me afterwards and they'll say I thought you were speaking directly to me I thought you were in my mind I apologize all the time I have been collecting apologies for 3 years now and a 100 percent of the time when I interrupt an apology and I'll do this wherever I go in the parking lot at the gas station at the grocery store if somebody says a useless needless apology I'll interrupt gently with the smile in relation ready you ask if it's fantastic because it opens up this amazing conversation and also why did you just apologize for that and some sometimes sadly they will apologize for apologizing if course yes but don't 100 percent of the time if I interrupt an apology with a woman you know what she says to me she says I don't know I actually have I have no idea why I just apologized I apologize all the time and then I start talking to her about what I researched and before you know it 15 minutes later we've had a conversation and I think just maybe just maybe I'm playing that person you can change the person I mean one thing to change a person but the changes when you when you take out sorry from the British character not fundamentally change something about that character but you see it's not all or nothing it's not an all or nothing proposition is not we absolutely apologize or we never a. Apologize just again I want to be conscious and deliberate about why you are apologizing and how does that make you feel ask yourself the question why did I just apologize and did I really need to apologize around any conference do you know how many useless apologies I hear around the buffet table or the coat rack Oh sorry can I just reach in their story oh excuse me sorry sorry sorry sorry just. Like can we just sound like more effective confident speakers do we have to preface every single thing we say we're going to apology it's very cool loathly aligned with our use of. Minimizing words you know these words where we say you know in a meeting Oh I just have an idea it's just a little idea I'm working on a small project I'm not an expert This may sound silly I may be wrong I'm not totally sure here all these phrases make a sound doubtful of our own ideas so if you have started your sentence with not an expert or this is going to sound silly but then why am I listening to what you have to say you've just discounted yourself. And that's how apologies feel they feel like we're dimming our light for no reason but you do know Professor when we apologize. We really mean it we just mean stuffy you know yeah get out of our way I'm scared say sorry to diffuse the situation but I really mean it and you know what people can feel it if it's not sincere so use your apologies wisely use it when you really truly mean it why do we got to throw it out there I know I I'm up at a tough battle here. So did you know I really meant to the my wife sang a song that is called I'm so sorry the only thing that gets me is that she never sang it for me OK Well did you do something that was worthy of. But nevertheless you'd have you know she was saying I'm so sorry for me not for you know somebody you know a previous life before she met me anyway that's as neither here nor there I have to apologize for this conversation Professor because a lot longer but we've run out of time cheerily sorry deeply very deeply sorry for it. And Professor has been fun thank you so much and I hope that your listeners will get off the apology train with me I don't doubt that they'll do that eventually but not just. Professor my your vantage that OK we'll get. Than predicted or advertise we'll get the latest headlines down got some breaks a cause for you on this you know momentous night as it were for breakfast 1st let's get the headlines has risen a pattern of words from digital B.B.C. Census must be going on various cities B.B.C. Radio 5 Live series in my eyes deal on the U.K. Would draw from the E.U. Has suffered a 2nd heavy defeat in the Commons M.P.'s will vote later on on whether the U.K. Should leave out a day. Oh you're a peon aviation officials have suspended all flights by Boeing 737 X. 8 in the U.S. Space The decision follows the crash of an Ethiopian and plane on Sunday in which all a 157 people died a 3rd climate has died as a result of an avalanche on Ben Nevis Britain's highest mountain a 4th person has been and if it Hospital in Glasgow and the family of 14 year old Molly Russell say they've now been granted legal aid for an inquest into head death having initially been refused funding by the legal aid agency the parents believe that material she viewed on Instagram about self harm contributed to her taking a life often with the sport now Manchester City thrash out care at the end he had to reach the quarter finals of the Champions League the Premier League leaders beat the German side 7 L. To win 10 to one aggregate and for manager Pep Guardiola it was job done we were solid we didn't concede chances in the net in the last 15 in the 1st card in the 2nd incredible good and plain quick and that they now mean the transitions and we scored a goal to 7 goals I know the shark is is a tough period because the last dollars games are confident must not be on top but even with that situation you have to do your job and we did it we're eventis are also through after scraping past Athletico Madrid in cheer in trailing 2 nil after the 1st leg you they needed a hat trick from Christiane over now to go through and Italian football journalist Max evangelist says eventis are a much more confident team this season with Rinaldo in their ranks they know exactly that something is going to happen and this is because of them they know they were a strong team in the last season you know but the writing of Granado game the team better self-consciousness about their capacity and their potential to have a name will face Celtic in the semifinals of the Scottish Cup after they beat Rangers that I brought. For the 2nd time this season hearts beat Partick Thistle in that quarter final replay Leeds have gone back to the top of the Championship after a comfortable 3 nil win at Reading black then Sheffield United in Sheffield Wednesday or one while Bristol City and switch drew away from football I restrained 16 to one shot as the island when the Champion Hurdle on day one of the Cheltenham Festival data could be under threat though with high winds forecast that the track inspection at 8 o'clock this morning and Sheldon regional director in Renton is still hopeful the racing will go ahead with the razor precautionary inspection if they say I'm sorry just given the course a potential for high winds tomorrow we want to keep everyone informed but there is . A small respite hope racing but we have much rather call especially on the stage which we hope is just because in the morning we can give the go ahead tennis now in Kyle Adnan days safely through to the 4th round at Indian Wells after beating Ratto Albert of Moldova but world number one Novak Djokovic outs he was beaten in straight sets by Philipp Kohlschreiber while world number 2 Simona Halep also lost in the women's draw and the 6 nations are considering selling a stake in the tournament to a private equity firm it comes as the power brokers of world rugby meet in Dublin this week to discuss the future of the international game more from our correspondent Chris chance over these really are unprecedented times for Rugby Union as a sport with world rugby looking to push through their plans for this revolutionary World League just that the 6 nations consider a massive offer from private equity giant C B C C B C's deal would see a windfall of more than $100000000.00 pounds so we each of the 6 Nations for a 30 percent stake it would mean surrendering part control in the tournament and it would also kill off world peace plans for the Nations Championship and that's the latest from B.B.C. Sports. Season. So you say. Oh . I. See said the 20000000 See starts this weekend with the Australian crime free life free school treat for full such a. Fuss continues and the best this is B.B.C. 5 Live. It. Is Time now for another edition of bracing because with Christmas and and other political. Costs to fill. And. We still don't understand the president. During the special place. For those who breaks it with a sketch of a place think about. The Mustang it will be far better to the good you think of the speech I can only describe as a dog. I would say it's closer Westminster. And I want to look. For your own path has moved past his head a few flags away from him do you reckon by our petition will be able to do that Lynch I was talking over each of the. Time I was awarded I think we can say no response to that question so here we all just go right to talk on or is it choose to it is choose those in it doing this daily trying to catch thing it blows your mind and well another huge defeat for the government we're just waiting lot about who I used to charge and perhaps in the company of Stomp of the shot I practice secretary but we it was safe if that actually was a whisper come like. No no I mean you were on the radio as all happened can you just talk us through the number. As in what happened and what you what you witnessed Yeah so yeah I was on 5 live as it happened in it but the real sense guys at Westminster here today was no there wasn't much jeopardy around the actual result who was going to win the expectation all day was that the government would lose it was all about the magnitude of defeat and that number came in of 149 yes a significant improvement from the government's perspective on last time around but still by any measure an absolutely huge defeat I think it was quite striking looking into the chamber the prime minister looked crestfallen she looked tired she looked upset you could hear obviously she's been struggling as she was last night in Strasbourg in the news conference as you recall during vocally her voice was struggling those memories of the party conference speech coming back and you know here we are what 2 and a half weeks away from Bracks that day as it's currently written down in in in the in the law of the land you wonder how on earth the prime minister can possibly even if she brings it back again and again and again get that number to a point where she can win so a good night for an emergency Bragg's a caster saying I reckon so I wonder whether there are any emergency phone calls going on between European capitals I mean this doesn't this doesn't take you by surprise they do feel that that they did come towards Theresa May with all of their clarifications yesterday but you know they realised it wasn't the kind of black and white and legally binding changes that many M.P.'s were looking for when it came to the backs up but also there's little surprise in an increasingly exasperated E.U. That feels that to reason may throughout their exit process has looked to the E.U. To solve her domestic political problems where she has a minority government they argue in the E.U. That her real problems on that Woodrell agreement or the backstop but in fact they are split between how the brakes. After Baxter to remain is between Conservatives and Labor parties and they feel that the fact that she's trying to juggle so many factions and sort of you know not really be honest if you like about the trade offs of the BRICS a deal would need means that those problems are not coming home to roost and the E.U. Is metaphorically folding its arms tonight and all of the statements are coming out since the vote result and saying this ain't our problem now we've done as much as we can yes interesting listening to all reading the statements from. Donald Tusk of the European Council the Michel Barnier the chief negotiator making that point about you know it's London's problem it's over to you there's nothing more we can do I mean clearly the margin of defeat was huge the you know we're back to those discussions are we about even if we offered a little bit more would it make any difference anyway but. Should we take that at face value is there anything else that they could potentially concede because we had that conversation we catch another account of what it was last week I think last Thursday where you were reflecting that it might not be quite the last minute for the E.U. That even if the British government felt like today was the last minute well from the tax and messages I've had from Team Barney tonight I thought the suspect team Barney have now given up on this deal getting through parliament and there in no deal territory no and if that is what they're thinking well that's then reflected in the official public statements from the commission of the council as well where they say they're not going to ramp up their no deal planning and the Plan B. For that is an extension request for Article 50 from to resume a potentially in the next few days I think Chris that what you've reached the limit of about silly is a legal technical talks you know the kind of talks that we've been seeing between civil servants and bureaucrats. To have a look you know what can you tweet care league in legally what can you tweak that I think now if anything is going to happen with this deal it's down to politics and it's down to political leaders now just so happens that next week the 27 E.U. Leaders are coming to Brussels and so is treason May Now I'm not suggesting that the leaders and I'm going to 10 men through this man say you know what Will been the backstop don't worry about it because I look at their parliament that is definitely not going to happen but there is nothing stopping the prime minister not only asking for an extension if that's what it comes to and that's the general expectation but also saying what else can you give me what else can you do and when I was talking to a couple of diplomats from different countries today when you put that. To them they say listen on the one hand if you have a look at all the summits to date it's not the civil servants on the E.U. Side you like that have been the meanies the toughies in the most inflexible it's been the E.U. Leaders at the summit sort of put on the brakes and said no we can't go that far in trying to get a deal with the U.K. Why would it be any different now I don't know might it we know the E.U. Leaders at a political level really want to avoid a no deal Breck's it but how far would they be how far would they be willing to stretch nobody actually knows until they're all in a in a room together but again I wouldn't say that means the backstop will be be taken at the withdrawal agreement because that most certainly will not happen one thing that definitely unites all of them is protecting the single market where I have company as a client but if I was going to introduce a I don't have company they send in the London end of the bricks and cast operation secure Starwars here the shadow director Secretary welcome to our podcast is good so I want to thank you very much Elaine. Well your reflections on where we are now well I thought the promised would lose the deal today 147 Hazel there's a 449 stories along a defeat for her I think and therefore we're going to go through the process tomorrow of deciding what to do about no deal given that she's going to a free vote given that she's putting down women or has put on them and says that the government declines to or that we decline to leave without a deal seems to be don't get through quite easily tomorrow and then we'll be on to the question of an extension 1st day so that's the process bit of where we go I think the substance bitties. What is the real attitude now of the prime minister towards other options she almost hinted I think that. She would let the House decide what to do next but that's quite an extraordinary thing and we'll have to see whether she follows through on nurse here so I don't know by what you've just been saying what did I miss. Labor's going to back the deal meaningful vote 3. What do you know we were just hearing that said that parliament's likely to take over the process and decide what happens next so I'm asking about half of all the E.U. What does happen next because they're looking to the U.K. To solve any problems now that's been the clear message tonight it's going so well so far yeah I mean I I mean I think 1st and foremost is the process but for tomorrow the next day so that's got no deal off the table that happened quite easily vote for an extension of Article 50 in principle. Then. At least 2 things have to happen we really need to know what problems it can do is she going to say I will effectively make myself the servant of the house and therefore if there is a majority I will faithfully carry it out. Or is she going to propose something else as a sort of as the executor and that's a must have decision for her it's a really massive decision and it just say that from an opposition point of view because for Prime Minister to say I will let my objectives be set. Whether they are along the lines of a different kind of deal or up or a public vote by a majority and even though it may not be what I want to do or even what I think the best interest of the country that's not massive to handing out additional handing over control but if she doesn't do that it's hard to see how it can break the impasse because the only thing she could possibly put back itself is a deal and that's obviously not going to happen high care is adamant try how you are going to go and speak to I'm good thanks I got to speak to B.B.C. World in a 2nd so I'm leaving you for the world and I said what. Lawyer to lawyer with not me the lawyer I mean talk about Geoffrey Cox being the other lawyer in this situation do you think his legal judgment is advice today which could potentially have made the defeat even worse was done in good faith and argued on purely legal terms or is there some political seasoning in there no it was definitely done in good faith in my opinion it was the only. Decision I think he could have come up with I thought I'd started the Dr was last night and early this morning and applied my own sort of legal mind to it I then did a lot of telephone calls to sort of experts in the field in international law they were all of the same view and I think had he given a contrary opinion and said it does change everything I think there then the would have been questions about why he had done that but I do you I mean in the background to all this I think you have to appreciate that when we are in the sort of iraq war question about legal advice etc etc all lawyers. Who have ever sort of ever held or aspire to be Lawrence as a cutely aware of the reputation they have in the legal profession and that if they if they publish an advice it's going to be cruel move and it's I think against that background I think just because couldn't really of decide anything else I rather. As a former And as a former D.P.P. Like a senior lawyer in the public sphere do you think the role of attorney general has been abused by this government in this process no I don't think so actually I think they've brought the attorney in to give advice he's given advice and pretty robust way of delivering it. But the written advice is pretty robust and actually I think in fairness to the government and in fairness to Jeffrey Cox he's played it pretty straight in other words he's told what he thinks the true legal consequences of what they're what they've put on the table and I like that advice and that's why they didn't want us to get the 1st version of it but but I think they've I think in fairness they have played it straight that said there have been a lot of rather well informed whispers around the place saying he was quite cross not necessarily because of the legal opinion or how that was presented but because he had a different view about what ought to be actually put on the table to the E.U. So some people in high places have told me today he wanted to be more hardball actually go for something with the European Union where they would the deal would have said tweak would have said the U.K. Can walk away if talks have irretrievably broken down of course out of an Cattleya a no then probably secure you'd say the same that would have been probably chucked out but yeah I mean listen I've lived with and worked with lawyers for a very very long time I usually think they can do everybody else's job of in Iraq. So I have no doubt that Jeffrey thought although you see a very good lawyer but he's probably a very good negotiator and certainly better than I'm going to try so far. And I think actually means you can get more if you know and also it's because he was pushing Laura that it said that the talks broke down on Sunday I mean the mood was terrible in the E.U. On Sunday and you know I was told in no uncertain terms that although progress had been had been made in some areas it did not go where the U.K. Wanted to go and when it came to the upper traceroute process it's exactly that so I would say probably in his defense probably trite the E.U. Was no. It interested in that and again it's not from the E.U. Perspective and I think this is often forgotten in the U.K. It's not just sort of bloody mindedness it's it is it is all just about protecting islands frankly it's about protecting the single market and that is something that the member states felt very strongly when they did not want to weaken that backstop and they were not going to weaken the backs up or allow the U.K. Just simply to walk to walk away from it without that arbitration process because an art of diplomacy to those negotiations in the civil service team would have been doing a well aware of all the nuances all the history etc must really important and I really don't think there's difficult for anyone else this idea that somebody asks will walk in at the last minute and get something which the team been struggling with for months is very realistic interesting I know you've been quite plugged into it the civil service team working on this have you no feeling and thinking about the negotiation that's a good idea how that could happen let's talk to here about labor and the European Union and directs it because it seems to me the elephant in the room is for so many Labor supporters and Labor voters is a conversation that's been going on internally for you guys going back to your party conference and before that around another referendum and the extent to which you're willing to properly embrace that and it's not difficult to conclude as an observer that every time that question is put to Jeremy Corbyn or John McDonald it's there it's mentioned that it's still on the table but it seems an incredibly long table and it always seems to be just start of grass from being properly in wholeheartedly indorsed and grabbed hold of I don't think that's entirely true or fair. No no no no I mean listen I mean obviously there was a we had a structure decision conference a really knows that and the and the last part of that was that as it were to avoid No Deal break the impasse we would support the option of a public vote and then we 2 weeks ago said it's not just an option it's something we will support and Jeremy actually announced himself so it wasn't me announcing on behalf of the Labor Party it was germy saying. We leave the lay our own amendment or we'll support an amendment in favor of a public vote that would operate to some sort of law called Prime Minister deal he then did so from the dispatch box the next day I'm a self JOHN MCDONALD And Emily all said a lot about it that we didn't mention at the dispatch box tonight which is interesting since some of you remember some of our basic casters some Labor supporters listening to this will think well hang on the promise is just crashed to a 2nd disastrous defeat here shouldn't Jeremy Corbyn be sending the dispatch boat saying right troops now is the time well I think we've got to be careful not to read absolutely everything into every detail of everything that's said. At the dispatch box in that way I mean Jeremy was going to. Come on it's crazy to ask people don't listen in the same ways that a program where you can read lax and tell us what you really think though I mean but earlier in the day Jeremy is that this is about what he was making a speech and. Went through the argument about a public vote so in a confirmation vote as he put it which I think is the right way to put it so I mean I think that we've just got to look at what happened on must've decision today in the vote that's what really matters we're going to get ready for tomorrow to vote on that and we've got to get ready to get on 1st or we do need to then get on to the question of how on earth do you find a majority in parliament and what is it for and that's really where this is all heading I think can we just do if we can you missed our break that has quiz that we had specially designed for you a couple of weeks ago and in the absence of a quiz Can we do some quick fire questions about what you'll do in the next few days because you are as you suggest absolutely vital 1st off does it matter that the government motion to say is no deal still the default in the kind of last bit of the question I guess this confused me up and then ends up I thought do does that matter or not I just miser I think because it leaves the sting in the tail as the price is a promise or say well I'll propose that we don't leave without a deal but on the other hand I'll leave the threat hanging there and I think I think the members have already gone down to get rid of that 2nd bit so I wouldn't be surprised if that goes in the course of tomorrow's debate we will see do you want an extension and for how long. I don't want an extension it's as if you know Resources think the one thing I was an exception were the position I would go to have an extension it's not a policy I mean it's not Labor Party policy of choice that you put in a manifesto the one thing we want is an extension have we got to a situation where it's inevitable and we need one yes we have and therefore in that sense of course we want one but it's not a desire it's a necessity and I long it depends the purpose it really depends on the purpose if it's for a general election if it's for a public vote then that is going to take time if on the other hand it is to find some other deal we might coalesce around it may take less time I'm well aware that tied up in NOT answer is the tricky question of you know if it goes over roughly 3 months does that then carry with it the implication that you need to participate in E.U. Elections but the one thing I've learned in the last 2 years that if you set the clock and you simply say the clock runs the show you end up where we are now I think we need to do what we should have done at the beginning the 2 years which is to say should we now decide what the majority in parliament is for and then when we know that purpose we can have a sensible discussion about what length of extension we need and you know if the prime minister had 2 years ago even in broad terms asked the question and got an answer what sort of thing would parliament support we wouldn't be where we are now so if we just set another clock ticking and say Right the clock tick takes what happens now we will get exactly the same position we're in but we've been in this week now you may or may know you know this but Adam is the one person who probably has more breaks it binders than you or them actually you know I know he's got some you know maybe a stem Padam yet a killer question in the care Starmer memorial Bragg's a tribute to the Morial. Right yeah yeah I think Taylor question was question tan a good mate in Northern Ireland under the backstop and on sale in the E.U. Would carry which marking. Out well. It would probably have to carry I mean in the in the transit in the transition and or in the box it was made in the you don't carry you market because the Northern Ireland is in the Customs Union the for the purpose of the backstop if it's build up a different support for from Northern Ireland say if it's juror in transition or the box top then it is an E.U. Marking Adam this is in the bank so. If it's in the back store and it is a label with a specific country on it rather than a generic you label it would be U.K. Brackets and I. Already know that right I don't know where you learned something you learn something every day I'm going to the very end for somebody on this. Very important question we know a couple weeks ago we were we were talking about that the Tigers were to go to the independent group and they you know they're there strong views on another referendum which you yes but you sort of share. They don't go to all go on for a numbed owes a delivery drivers just be spotted going into Downing Street what would you be ordering if you were trying to work all over the site and you haven't had time to actually have a proper meal Oh I'd be ordering and I did take questions or not I don't want to go I mean Monday spicy or no we spicy we've got. We got none of those inconsistent and we've got you're all going to 10 year old boy so try to get past that I try to fake but if I do myself. Over and over I shall it out and. I'm sure I'll make an interesting story for some journalist. A story I can I can I ask a very serious question yeah OK you said that you know them you would say the important thing is now to find out what Parliament want so how would you suggest going about them would you well you could have the choice would you say it's indicative time now well I mean that as a really difficult question. Because. the rule sorts of problems with indicative votes because if your only indicating do you make one choice or more you not really bound by its nobody feels up against an edge so you don't have to of sweat out the decision so the i mean in that sense i'm not off i'm really genuinely not a fan on the other hand a have to except that one way or the other we have to devise a way to find a majority and i'm not of that keen on the idea that it just depends on what the speak a select sunny morning order because they've think that's really right so this got to be some process ah but in maybe of a version of indicative votes in the end but the i mean the trouble with all of this is lots of people say and so it's in late parties pretty open they say things like well i would be in favor of a 2nd referenda but out have to be persuaded that you know other options weren't going to work or we are up against the following option a people have those conversations in they genuinely main it the problem with indictive votes his he doesn't feel like you're up against anything if your just going around the not eat a phase indicates a going a hypothetical way to bess so there are problems with it but i spose what you're telling the that an basic ass it's an eye on it i've got a going to seconds i'm trying cram and kraven when were is that you're basically saying telling us actually like everybody in government you can't see a clear way to funny majority her in a thing well our night we've not really been able to test it because we've not got pass the promise to saying is might it will noted if we'd get part laurent your eye madge these are position you can say this is where we think there is a majority and the and you're just think partly legitimity libya no one has an answer but as over where we are 8 ferrety choose an eye on the 12th a premise is just said a 2nd disasters diffie you also don't have a clear really to lick here we think is the majority your were not let me just try and aunts that i have felt for some time that this probably a majority around customs union single mark alignment of when we lost put customs union up as a single a member back in the early summer of last year we lost by i think 3 votes on that night when joe swinson was on fairly deprived of not voting for So so we got really really close so I think that's. Something I've felt for a long time maybe get a majority the only qualification I've got is that it is clear that for many people in the labor movement they've moved past that to a point where they really think and understandably think now that it ought actually to be a public vote and obviously we would support that so it's really I think from our point of view those propositions have to be tested to see where there's a majority for them and that's why it was important Labor Party moved on public for 2 weeks ago to say if that proposition is put down we would support it because that obviously makes a material difference to whether a majority would be found clearly everybody if they don't want it was it but so you go if you go for it now is this instance to say what advice would you give to the E.U. Now care it's thinking about what what do we do next because this is what the e's been saying all along is that the prime minister seeing parliament so split has been looking to the E.U. To somehow come up with a magical solution to please as many of those factions as possible employer and of course has come up with a compromise deal that ended up not pleasing very many people at all so it now says well listen you guys are going to sort it out what is it there in what does the E.U. Do right now well I think the E.U. If I've. Understood it properly and spoke of spoken or sit a lot of people Brussels over the last few weeks and months the strong view I got from those discussions is that what the E.U. Worlds is to know what the majority is and to know that the majority is sustainable and it was a question they repeatedly put into the government which is it's all very well you saying you might just get it over the line but can you sustain that majority so from the from the E.U. Point of view I think what they should be saying is you need to find a majority and you need a sustainable majority so that something completely leverage is NO NO NO NO NO they've been saying look I've been saying it's a prime minister who's not been prepared to find a way that majority is I need to go on to get be in big trouble if I missed my deadline for the tonic. But I ask one last question you won't get a lot here and I will certainly won't have something very different to that P. 45 I think very quickly will you commit to putting a customs union amendment down or well we're going to have that discussion when we get signed where we are of no no it's over now no it's not unless we know it's it is look you know we have to take each step as we get so we know what we're going to do tomorrow we know what to do that we didn't say what is the process for deciding and and what members we want to put down and did not order and that is you know genuinely we discuss that as a team and this to ing and fro ing about any last thing before I go out the door and then these guys can continue to. In a friendly exit cast wait do you accept though if you're a series in May and you move to a position of accepting the Customs Union a softer exit she will not after getting a deal through be able to govern because she won't have a majority from her party when the D.P. When happened think that's probably right and I do recognize that they have a custom they had a manifesto commitment for they seem so if they're kind of so she should sort of sacrifice her leadership if you like in order to to get something through you think could work well we'll have to see I mean she may say that notwithstanding the manifest and commitment notwithstanding party loyalty is it's her duty to put herself a servant to the house a that is a really difficult one for genuinely difficult and she's going to make that decision OK thank you I could go by just saying I can't know or Clearly nobody has a clue what's actually going to happen here everybody is guessing what in your is your gut instinct detached from what you would like to happen what do you think is going to happen in the next in the next week or the next fortnight in the next month well I think that no deal will be taken off the table tomorrow I think of on 1st day will be a vote to seek an extension I think all the effort next we will be into finding a mechanism for finding a majority if that's possible be almost difficult to say. If there is a majority for something to Penn's one it is. And how long it's going to take and then we can start the process of it but if there isn't a majority we'll have to find a way to get to a majority in order to break the impasse because we can't do anything if we can't find a majority for something a last question for those people where the labor supporters who not all not who are desperate to see you guys be full throated in your support for another referendum do you want to exhaust the possibility of your vision of Brecht's its being as a viable concern in the current parliament before you can be seen to be saying nothing other than we want another referendum Well I mean that's an argument it's often put that you know it's got you've got to show that it's been put in been defeated and it's never going to be possible and of course we did put it down 2 weeks ago we got defeated by 83 vote. And some people therefore made the ultimate Well that's done and dusted and and true enough. We then said we would support a public vote and those so that support for a public vote is there it is what we are going to do support a public vote whether we put it down ourselves source of support or backbench Amendment office and put it down ourselves it is more difficult to win it and therefore supporting about Benjamin Mint is more realistic but the idea that as it were the other. Issues the other arguments were made about a general election go away is not sensible because you know we don't know how this is going to go if the prime minister says I'm not going to make muster servant of the house then obviously the question of a general election looms and you putting legal know you just hear me out because you know if of course public vote is put that will test the strength but more than once except But if we get to a point where. A deal gets through and we're still arguing about what the future should look like because there's the if they do get through in the foothills of the next stage of the battle which is what the future and what what is actually going to be the treaty so if we we will. Left more in that place than of course what we're saying about customs in single market is going to be massively relevant to that debate so the idea that these tools are sort of tested and then been forever. Is I think not to necessarily think through all the different things that could happen I think what was significant is that we made that decision to support a public vote either by laying it sells in a moment or vice a by supporting about Benjamin and that was effect from my point of view was to implement in many respects the conference decision that we had passed back in September of last year if it ever did come to another referendum here and the scale of one to 10 how easy would it be to find consensus on what the question should be well I'm not I don't think it's difficult people think I mean what let's see tomorrow but I suspect parliament to vote against no deal pretty heavily That's a bit good indication that parliament be really reluctant to put no deal on the table so then the other question is What realistically could be put on the ballot paper I think it has to be there are the conditions it's got to be a deal that parliament is confident about it's got to be a deal that the E.U. Says well if that were agreed in a ballot or referendum we would agree it's because you know point on anything else it's got to be a deal it's ready to go through implementing legislation which is why the way I've seen it is a sort of confirmation vote on a deal which is found its way through parliament which the E.U. Says week we have signed that off it's ready to go away you could be implementing legislation around it so it almost answers itself when you get into that the reality of what it is and some people have said well you can put other options up but is a massive difference but I remain and say oh no I'll get to remain a Mento don't want but the other option for leave if you like you can't just pluck out options that people rather like and say will stick them on a ballot it's. To be something the E.U. Says if I goes through that's fine by us we can work with that and there's only one of those and that's the promise to steal a moment it'll only be a deal that's got through parliament the default position the spars I'm concerned should be reminded that has been the position that sort of sat behind our conference motion. And I think it is the obvious default position so it becomes a confirmation vote do you want to leave on these terms if so then the deal is ready to go if you don't then the default is the status quo I thought that you have a follow up I'm sure there were some there was a very fine you know I do I leave but I wanted to see when you got go I go quite a lot of it you gave me on the show we can do it all again no no. No no it was I just think thinking Chris it would be these ultimate nightmare if it waited on hold for 21 months overshadowing so much so that you business and then there was another vote and it was very very close again that that is something that is talked about and you circles would read dread Yeah I appreciate that but I also know that the geopolitics of this is really important is a completely different and very serious debate which is in geopolitics the 21st century you can see where the power bases are and what the political influences are just at the moment. And. If the U.K. Is not close to the E.U. In some shape or form a new or close I think that affects the. Position of the E.U. Of Europe in not geopolitics so much I mean I do understand without a doubt that the bulbs I mean I do understand they know there are other things that need to get on with their getting frustrated understanding what but I actually want or do want to do once you lift your eyes up from that understandable frustration and look at you know what's one of the geopolitics here. I think that's begins to tell a different story thanks for coming on know so much I think I mean coming on thank Niger out of a nice to shark catcher will I suspect we might see on the klaxon again in 24 hours I think that could be a real possibility and definitely cross the E.U. Tonight a lot of chatter going on about what what could be next what a simple cause breaks it cost and in the next hour the program will talk about a runaway train in Australia the train is over. For news and. Really for anyone else this is B.B.C. 5 it's for good good morning this is not on for I've gotten at it by the main news on 5 Live and he's rejected he's a maze breaks it deal for a 2nd time and in sport Manchester City thrash 7 mil to reach the quarter finals of the Champions League. This is B.B.C. 5 Live with the. Result a pound woods and pays will vote later on whether to rule out a new deal parks it is after a 2nd big defeat for 2 reasons we have drawn agreements despite her promising legal assurances over the no of an island backstop some company is on and Foreign Minister let me make it absolutely clear no deal breakers that scenario is a lose lose lose for everybody for Britain for Arland and for the you we need to all work to avoid that us but we cannot do us without the British.