Back to it in those newsrooms and that is really really harmful because you don't get balance and journalism you know the 1st thing I was always schooled in is you have to be balanced analysis by the B.B.C. Of the cuts to legal aid funding in England and Wales has revealed a big increase in the number of people representing themselves in course figures from the ministry of justice and legal aid agency also show more than a 1000000 people live in areas where there is no legal a provision for housing and the 1st national scheme to recycle Chris packets is starting today in the past it's being considered too expensive to do because they contain plastic walkers is behind it the firm says it hopes millions of packets will be prevented from going to landfill so well far as recycling campaigner in West Sussex on the tiering with the scheme as a nation we seem to weigh a huge amount of crisps Actually it's quite shocking we collect them from the drop off points box them up send them off we're running out of space in there for we need to recycle more. Now this bill is his Hugh Wilson craft Ronnie O'Sullivan has set his sights on the record for World Snooker titles having set a new benchmark at the U.K. Championship in New York the Rockit one a record 7 title beating Macallan 16 he also supposes Stephen Hendry for the highest number of Triple Crown side tools with 19 a frustrated Rafa Benitez has called for the immediate introduction of the video assistant referee in the Premier League after his new call suicide last at home to Wolves following a contentious sending off Newcastle's to Andre yet Lim was shown a 2nd HOF red card at Wolves went on to win 21 thanks to a 94th minute window done they are off the bottom of the Scottish Premiership they held ranges to a $10.00 draw at Dens Park the resettled and moved 2nd leg of the couple of bed to Doris Fonda went to extra time in Madrid River Plate beating their point as I was rivals book a genius 31 to secure a 5 story I could win and Saracens director of rugby Mark McColl believes his England forward merit Toji will be fit for the start of the 6 Nations in February after confirming he does not need surgery on a knee problem this is B.B.C. Radio 5 Live on digital B.B.C. Sound Smart speaker and on the bill in its daily mainly China with a mix of found in sunny south winds continuing to ease but through the afternoon found a procedure is a well made infinitely thin region they face life on she's day it's a big mansion and it feels that she obviously lives 5 life sports extra a must win for counselling the things I have any chance of progress a little pool house in L.A. a Full life commentry 8 pm and all my life fulfilled upon coverage from Westminster cammies government and close into a brick ceiling sleeves and a life support this is 5 life. And this is up for my own 5 Dawson and Brian coming up. In this hour of the program we'll be marking the 70th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights asking what difference it's made this is the declaration prompted by the United Nations which stipulates all sorts of obligations on countries right across the world but what difference has it made in his 1st adopted by the U.N. On the 10th of December night in 4870 years old today also why he should keep phone running to work instead of taking the bus or the car wouldn't dream of taking the bus or the car which is if you were to lazy corrupt and dream of religion it will find out why and it's not just for health reasons and otherwise and look at some sides well let's call it science night on a full night why not. First of all those trailers calling for the immediate release of a Melbourne based refugee from detention in Thailand because of fears that he could be tortured if he's extradited to Bahrain hacky Malley Al Arabiya is a former member of Bahrain's national football team and has been critical of the country's royal family the B.B.C.'s Phil Mercer is in Sydney and Phil 1st why was AQIM alley Araby detained in Bangkok in the 1st place. Will he come to Thailand on holiday with his wife from Melbourne in November he was detained Bangkok's International Airport after Bahrain had issued an international alert through Interpol accusing him of vandalizing a police station back in 2012 now that's an allegation that has a Raby strenuously denies as you say it's He's a former international footballer for the Bahraini national side he had been critical of the Gulf countries royal family he alleges that he was tortured before fleeing to Australia in 2014 he was granted asylum here last year and he fears that he will face persecution in Bahrain if he's extradited and Australia and other international human rights groups are calling for Thailand to release him and allow him to return home to Melbourne Welford have friends in these kind of cases when there is a fear that human rights abuses occur if somebody is returned to their own country often what happens is that country is sure those whichever other nations are involved they will make sure that these human rights abuses don't take place is the brain but Raimi government done anything of the sort you know. We've not heard too much from the old fart is in Bahrain Australia for its Ponts that gave this man political asylum last year is treading a very diplomatic line in all of this the Australian Foreign Minister Marie Spain says that she's concerned about Mr A rabies detention in Thailand and he's calling for his immediate return to Australia Amnesty International is joining a host of international human rights organizations calling for the same amnesty Dalton says that as a refugee he shouldn't have been detained in Thailand at the request of Bahrain and one other campaign is siad Al would die easy he's from the Bahrain Institute for rights and democracy and he says the former international footballer should be allowed to return home to Melbourne. As I thought it had been ignoring the call by government by not to be humorous they're going to say. That they had him back to what it would be breached. In other news through we hear that the 26 year old man who is being charged with the murder of the British back pack in New Zealand Gray's. As appeared in court no. That's right it was a brief appearance in the O'LOGHLIN district Cole it was interesting to hear the comments of the judge in the case justice for Grace Malayan would be swift and fair members of the British backpackers family attended the brief hearing so they were clearly in the same room as the 26 year old man who's been accused of her murder he's been remanded back in custody and Don He's due back in courts in late January we can't reveal his identity his name his identity has been suppressed for legal reasons and grace my lane was last seen in a central opened hotel on the 1st of December and police allege that the man that she was seen in video with at that particular time is the individual accused of her killing and a body was found by detectives investigating the case in hills outside of opened on Sunday we're still awaiting formal identification but as far as the investigating team in New Zealand is concerned their hunt for the young British backpacker is over and now of course the legal process will will continue to proceed as the months go go by Phil thank you Phil most of the in Sydney. Have you ever been stuck in a brutal traffic jam no need to see predestines overtake you as they had to work well that might not be is unusual as you think an analysis by the Sarver fitness app called the year in sports report shows it's now far said to run to work then to drive in some U.K. Cities well at least to have a dean in Belfast and it says more cities will soon follow including in the next 2 years the capital where Andy badly is a cheat time British middle distance. Runner a limb pick runner and is a striver user and I began by asking him Do you run to work after driving at the train so I live about 40 miles away from the office I live north of London so I would love to be able to run commute but I can't so I'm at the stage where with 2 kids and a busy life I'm actually at the stage of thinking of perhaps getting off the train or stop running just to get their backsides in before you've got a good excuse for not to do the whole thing on foot Yeah and he when you hear the stances say that it's quicker sometimes to run than to drive into work he's surprised by that and having experienced used to live in London and occasionally drive back into it to visit friends or whatever them now is the short answer I definitely don't miss the track. And the ability to kind of run your choose your a bit more carefully then you can choose your driving along the river or take a bit a nicer congestion free route to run so it doesn't really surprise me you do see people running to work in all cities across the United Kingdom and outside cities as well how easy is it how strict food because I'm don't think you will you can go to work with a suit you. I I guess I mean at that you are dependent on your place of work being flexible or accommodating or having the facilities for it or not if you have a shower when you when you get there. But in a lot big cities or well smaller cities as well I think that's something the work place is to place an emphasis on a big able to provide the stuff with the ability to get changed into a cycle or or run to work or cycle or run from the office during the day so I think if you've got that in place then I think it's a good way of saving time because you're able to stay fit. And healthy doing something that otherwise would be star still on a train or in traffic in a car. And you know I think that the data from from Strother says I think we're 46 sorry 4600000 U.K. Run commutes last year so Stephanie fatty people out there doing it. And I do get the fitness health part of it or do you get that. But it's also not hearing let's be real now and you've got an 8 hour shift ahead of you last so you want to do before the shift is to knock yourself out. Yeah I guess so that I mean that's one way of looking at it but most of the people I speak to are not 30 colleagues in my office who do run to work and also from my experience. In sport when I used to be much more serious runner it sets you up for the day and whilst you feel like that's counter-intuitive that you would be more tired when you get work most people report they're actually sort of and like I said once they get to work and they have to. They feel like they were chief something already not before they started their work and so yeah in the most part the feedback is pretty positive and people I know that you know the other excuse of go is that you know unlike you who. You are a professional runner sensually I'm like you I'm going to get knackered on that run to work you know and it's a little bit embarrassing when the cars are stuck in the traffic that for a moment envied you because you were getting to work quicker than they. Suddenly see you gossiping for air like you're about to die you know it's embarrassing isn't it. Well I thought I'd hope it hope it's not an E D D can but pace yourself so that you don't feel like you're you know about to die on a commute into work you can also choose how far you want to go like I said. Yes I was out of a background in and national sport are certainly not how fit I feel in the moment I went for probably 8 or 9 months not doing any outside so when I stopped when I'm at a point now I said I'm not trying to a portion of my journey as a as a run commute and that's an option for anyone starting out with a ton of workout a fair little bit right to it since that day I just got off one of 2 stops early on the cheap with the bus or you know drive part the way in and park up and then and run the last section so you could choose to do a very short that exercise and others it's a little bit more slowly so you don't come into work a total sort of jibbering well and I'm glad you said that because I think with me it's not so much the distance to be honest I'm out of breath after 50 meters or so but it's the pace how do you see the shoes of the journey to work you know it's essentially jogging is it was it proper running when it's as fast as you want to go it's not it's not a race so I think that the the data from stronger said that the average speed was 6.7 miles an hour and I was for London commuters. 6.7 No 617 miles an hour yes that's right I know some of the 9 and some of them so as to not intimately he you can do 6.7 miles an hour well that's the average so there's a fair few people who might be running short distances and running a little bit quicker than that and a big plenty of people who are slower to. Well. Let's see how long it takes me to run a mile thank you and so you because it is far too embarrassing far too bears are like um say no only us could run to work but at least we should be able to walk to work and you don't know what would only walk to work anymore I guess it's I mean some people like to some people I guess enjoy the commute on the train or the bus if they can look at a phone or read a book or something but I think when you talk about people in traffic and that does happen a lot and in the cities I don't know I think is your answer some people are taking journeys like they could do by running all or cycling and as a beginner you could take in a bike if you're not the world's best cyclist either or you could walk if it's only a matter of a couple of miles I mean I'd say that I was guilty of it probably when I lived in London as well I didn't know my way around that well I went off to choose rather than the real map and so probably often got public transport distances where I could have walked and so now I do try and develop more walking and the badly the British Olympic mood distance and I know you wouldn't say 20 minutes. Anyway the concept of human rights is something that many of us in democratic societies at least just take for granted but human rights whose we currently know them a relatively new the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is 70 years old to day it was 1st adopted by the UN on the 10th of December 1988 let's talk. About the significance of that declaration and wide still imports and he's a senior lecturer in modern European and international history of the University of Sydney has also written a book called The Conservative human rights revolution it was this Universal Declaration of Human Rights a conservative human rights revolution though to drugs. Well 1st of off thank you for having me here it's a great pleasure. Well I think that that there are there are a lot of different histories of human rights so the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a big part of the origins of a new international order after the 2nd World War one that is based on the fundamental rights of the individual no matter the individual's nationality no matter the race the gender. Of that individual but there are a number of different projects after the 2nd World War One of them is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which I would say was by and large a kind of social democratic project there are rights in the universal declaration such as the right to Social Security the right to health care the right to an education and then there are some other projects the European Convention on Human Rights adopted 2 years after the Universal Declaration and then that convention has a different cast of characters a different set of rights and conservatives were really prominent in crafting the European human rights system among these conservatives Winston Churchill So again there are there are different set of characters in a different set. Important tax after the 2nd World War the Universal Declaration being very important but not the only one which was the a priority question don't sit around sees what other human rights what other. Well human rights are a different things to many different people and so we like to think that perhaps there's a singular definition of human rights usually people that say Well human rights are rights that are universal Everybody hold them by virtue of simply being a human Homosapien and that's in the preamble and 1st article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights their equal everybody should enjoy those human rights that regardless of the group they belong to that the category they belong to and that could be your ethnicity or religion your race your gender and that was a quite revolutionary part of the Universal Declaration was in Cuba including a prohibition discrimination against gender and theory there inalienable so those you can't give up those rights the state can't take those rights from you that's the theory in practice it's it's different but that's that's the general idea yeah this is the problem is there are states in the few I know but nevertheless some with mores say did still institutionalize enslavement is still going on there's no so of who have the United Nations about people being born free and equal in dignity that respect and when you talk about rights to. All inalienable rights about gender or sexual orientation you could argue that. And yet until recently many countries just ignored those aspects. Yes So that for me the what's revolutionary about the Universal Declaration is not just that you had very large number of countries around the world coming together in 48 member states of the UN for many different if you logical background this included not just the Western Europeans and the Americans or Australians it also included Soviet states for example so that's fairly remarkable coming across this document but also I think the range of rights and this article The 2nd article this anti-discrimination provision which really explicitly states you cannot discriminate on all these different grounds including by the way that being a colonial subject being a colonised So that was remarkable However the 2nd article does not include a lot of different categories does not include this of the having a disability for example does not include being a child that it does not include being an Indigenous person or being a migrant So there are as extensive as these rights were 948 we many people don't consider them to be comprehensive today I wouldn't pick on any particular country. For being a supreme human rights violator because I think part of the reality of human rights the politics of human rights is that every country Ah privileges certain kinds of rights over others it's just a matter of which but they all sign up to this universal declaration while prone to do it in the 1st since I'm presuming as it was founded in 1900 CA the 2nd World War had something to do with it. Yes undoubtably So this is the 2nd world war the horrors of the war the Nazi genocide which at that time like today was was considered to be. Genocide that targeted many different groups among them Jews but also a range of other groups the Nazis had terrorized all of Europe of course $38000000.00 or more dead in the 2nd World War the Harz of fascism that the 2 total wars that have wrought untold destruction and mechanized murder over the conmen in the world so that was part of the story but we have to also recognize it was a political text it was a result of political compromise these were not activists who came together in the way we think of human rights activism today these were representatives of States representative government each of them with their own conception of which rights were the most fundamental rights and each of them with a different set of political priorities and there are a lot of disagreements in the drafting of this text so what we see is not kind of an abstract statement of philosophy sure or a law it's a political text Could you sum up what difference is made in those 70 is refuse it . Well I think we see the Universal Declaration is a powerful symbolic document it's not so much that the UN itself over the years has directly intervened. In the promotion of human rights I mean we think of UN peacekeeping of course in these kinds of operations but in terms of the Creation of human rights councils and courts and commissions their activity for example pales in comparison to the European Court of Human Rights which issues over 1000 rulings of a day we have nothing like that on the U.N. Side but in terms of the symbolism of the universe or that question was quite powerful and it gave birth a bench really you know once the politics political conditions were suitable to a whole range of other conventions you know treaties on Civil and Political Rights economic and cultural rights the rights of refugees the rights of women the rights of persons with disabilities migrants the declaration on Indigenous people right of the children of children so we can see you know there's this kind of Pantheon now of these human rights tax all of them the product of both activism and you know non-governmental organizations and also all to merely constructed by states again with their own priorities and constraints and concerns about the part of what these treaties could do. To to them and their power books Duranty thank you very much Joe to Mirka Duranty there of the University of Sydney also the author of The Conservative human rights revolution Let's go to Adelaide where the 1st Test between Australia and India is heading towards a fascinating conclusion 5 lives Seth Bennett is there for us was the school. Soon $159.00 the notice to school for the Australians that chasing $323.00 for the victory would actually be a record school to chase down on this crown that the last. High school that was chased out of over 300 was back in 1902 and also I don't think even you would remember that one since and I think the West Indies were able to chase down 2 of them 36 but that was in in the early eighties so it would be a huge huge ask that just think of the crucial wiki as well Pat Cummins eventually fulling so that the good bowling of Jasper. Has had an outstanding outstanding day he's been bowling 9394 miles an hour being very very impressive in a huge part of this Indian performance and the sound you can head on right now is the sound of the Indian fans away to my right hand side they've got the India flags and that very very excited at the prospects of a victory here in Australia has been over 10 years since they last won it all straight a Test match and they've never actually won a Test series here because that's defended a White House into the off side and again I would rather go with Ravi Ashwin bowling away to my left hand side but yeah it's been a very impressive 1st test for the Indians remember that not by any long form cricket it's all these players since they were facing England in the series it will be some pretty comfortably in the end back in September and so this is been a very very impressive performance from them and certainly sets the table for what should be an exciting series and tell young connected I'm presuming that you can still buy sandpaper in the D.I.Y. Stalls over there. Is unfair No I don't think it has you know what has been very interesting though is to watch the charm offensive from the Australian cricket juggernauts over the course of the last 5 days I mean that they've let the broadcasters pretty much anything you know that they have that they could they call it the flying fox over here but you know the camera that flies over the top of the ground and gets all of those angles that have a loud place to be interviewed by the. Flying Fox it you know at a drinks break I mean it's remarkable surfing for most surf Bennett you know let's catch up with loads of fatherhood loves his and hold his own digital B.B.C. Sends snubs digital Venus is B.B.C. Radio 5 Live the government's insisting tomorrow's Commons VOSA on Teresa Mayes breaks it deal will go ahead as planned despite significant opposition to it from her own backbench M.P.'s Some leading conservative BRACKS He is arranging the prime minister to go back to Brussels to persuade the E.U. To remove the backstop for the Northern Island border a man's appeared in court in New Zealand charged with murdering the British backpacker Grace minae police investigating a disappearance a week ago found a body that's yet to be formally identified the Met police and Chelsea are investigating after allegations are aimed Sterling was racially abused by fans at Stamford Bridge this weekend in Manchester City an England striker has posted on social media that the way newspapers betrayed young black footballers is fuelling racism and Harry Redknapp says it feels so surreal to win this year's I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here comedy actress Emily atack Kane 2nd on the I.T.V. Show now the sports his he was in craft history has been made at the U.K. Snooper championship in New York no trick shot but we touch. Each. Touch. Indeed O'Sullivan beating Mark Allen 10 frames to 6 for a record 7th U.K. Title he overtakes Steve Davis he also supposes Stephen Hendry for the most titles in sneakers Triple Crown events Sullivan's aiming for even more played very well today in our hospitals having to convince myself to believe Doc when you know how to help match but yeah great to create history great to be the Nuggets recalled a man. My hero's record Stephen Hendry. And I still get. Chasing that one but that's another thing altogether Newcastle boss Rafael Benitez was left calling for the video assistant referee to be used in the Premier League immediately following their 21 defeat to Wolves Andre Yedlin was given a straight red card for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity but Benito felt there was cover his opposite number. Disagreed I saw the images and. The law is clear at the same time the work of the referee is a very tough job but what he sees I think of what is everybody sees a one view one clean with yoga with the goalkeeper Rangers missed the chance to move level on points with Celtic at the top of the Scottish Premiership they were held to a 11 draw by Done Deal who moved off the bottom of the table despite suffering an early red card in the game and the women Super League Manchester City and now joint leaders after a one nil home win over Birmingham their wins 2 for Chelsea Bristol City and West Ham far Williams scored twice for reading in their draw against her former club Liverpool the research and moved 2nd leg of the copula birth to Doris Fonda went to extra time in Madrid River Plate beating their rivals pocket juniors 31 to secure a 53 aggregate win that's the latest from B.B.C. Sport This is B.B.C. Radio 5 Live on digital B.B.C. Sound Smart speaker and on Good Morning to you pretty quiet on the weather front there at the moment and chilly as well Scotland and Northern England little frosty this morning to call temperatures around minus one or 2 degrees in some of the towns and cities but cold outside of town but the rest of the country is generally frost free and Monday is not looking at least the morning for most of us lot of sunshine around to greet the start of the working weight. It will tend to cloud over a little bit in the morning particular cross western areas of the U.K. So it will end up pretty great for places like Belfast a thing called it in to Plymouth The further east you are the better the weather is going to be so I'm guessing that say staying here all the way guessing Terry if it all the way up along the east coast towards appertain ship is that you get a state very very pleasant and sunny a little on the chilly side single figure temperatures but decent enough so yes a very quiet day on the way for the for many of us and just an outlook pretty for for the next few days choose day is looking pretty cloudy across the country but fairly quiet but as we go through the rest of the week it is expected to turn a little bit colder easterly winds will be setting in so the temperatures will be dropping and in fact by the time we get to read about Thursday I think even in places like London it will be around by decree Celsus with the most important thing the snow and nasty stormy weather or anything like that on the way I'm fine my friend. Premier League football then anyone else later on tonight so will be you do this in favor since this is what's it to go 68 pm The best my sports face is your all football station this is 5 life. Times nannies East as you know from digital B.B.C. Sound this is a small stream going on long days is B.B.C. Radio 5 Trying to some of you may have learned from radio falls feedback this week I've been doing this gig through 17 years in a moment from the fact that it's now 434 sure the body clock mine and yours or so the Kadian rhythm if you like are of interest so for the next 35 minutes we're going to hear from far drive science Last night we broadcast a special science night where Dr Chris Smith and the Naked Scientist. Discussed how brains keep track of saw i'm they don't discuss how my brain keeps track of my time but time in general and more importantly Kemet cabbage get jetlag and make it scientists 5 live now as anyone who's ever stepped off an international flight in into a new time zone knows jetlag is a horrible thing but why does it happen and why does it take a week or so to settle into a new time the answer lies in our body clock or cicadas in ribbon it turns out that as far as we know every living living thing on earth including plants and even bacteria have a way to keep track of time and in this half hour we'll find out how they do it and why this matters including how the same drug can have different effects at different times of day how some animals can tell you when high tide is coming and how plants can do of all things long division now with us are Stacey Harmer she's in the University of California Davis where she's a plant scientist working on how plants keep track of time David Wilcox since based at the University of Aberystwyth where he looks at how marine creatures keep tabs on the tides and make Hastings as the University of Cambridge where he picks the clockwork that keeps time in brains like ours so Hello and welcome to all of you Mick let's pick up with you 1st of all so tell me how does my brain and animals that have one like me actually keep track of time Well Chris I think you should see yourself as a 24 hour machine just about everything that your body does but the star just in the meal or whether you can think clearly or what your mood is or what your heartbeat is all of these things are controlled in a very regular 24 hour pattern which I think the listeners are pretty much aware of they know that they are 24 hour machines as it were. And what's the clockwork if I zoom in on my body and ask how does it know what time of day it is because I can have a pretty good guess I mean if if you'd stop me at one point today and say what time you think it is without cheating I normally have a pretty good idea how my doing that well that's how your thinking part the brain is working but in fact the body clock is we consider it is something that's deeper more primitive more primeval if you like about how the brain functions and it's not just the brain just about every cell in our body has a an approximately That's what's called circuit D. And Kadian approximately one day timing mechanism and under normal circumstances all those little clock mechanisms in all of our individual cells right across the body they're all working in synchrony and it in harmony is a beautiful piece of biological engineering really and the purpose of that being that if you get all the clocks at the same time zone in your body then they're all revving up their metabolism making energy available when you need it when you 1st get out of bed in the morning but you haven't got your metabolism thundering away through the night when you should be going to sleep they say exactly that it is very economical you know that biology make sure that you do the things you need to do at the time when you need to do them and you don't waste resources you don't waste energy by doing things that are unnecessary at different times of the day or of the night now the master clock is deep inside the brain isn't it in the region called the hypothalamus tell us about that and how does it actually tick. Well that's right so the hypothalamus is as a supreme It is part of the brain the same structure is there in fish in Phoebe as you know frogs and newts and toads and reptiles and birds so as I said this is a very ancient timing mechanism and what we know there's a cluster of nerve cells called neurons about 10000 of them in my brain and in your brain and those 10000 cells are actually important for defining a 24 hour life they do it on their own they don't need the rest of the brain to define 24 hour time it's a place a fantastic piece of biological engineering and that part of the brain that we talk about is about the size of a grain of rice and when those nerve cells are ticking what corresponds to the ticking mechanism what's actually making those cells keep time how do they do it well that was a big breakthrough in a cicadas in body clock field. We knew for many decades that we as individuals and animals and plants can do different things at different times a day but with all biology the real key is to identify the genes you know the pieces of D.N.A. On our chromosomes that actually control processes and the breakthrough in our field and there was a Nobel Prize awarded for this last year was to identify the genes 1st of all in fruit flies because experimentally they're useful to use to look for genes and then more recently in in mammals including humans and mice to identify the genes that make up the body clock now without being too technical your listeners are probably aware that genes control the production in our cells of proteins and so we have a system whereby these body clock genes direct the production of body clock proteins and that takes about 12 hours and then it takes about 12 hours for those proteins to be broken down and once a broken down the whole cycle can start again like a sort of chemical or by chemical domino effect so one thing turns on turns on the next thing turns on next and that feeds back in terms of the 1st thing and it takes around taking taking 24 hours to start it's a feedback loop it's like the feedback loop that controls our central heating and how does it go certainly please send me because I don't care so you explained how it ticks but how does it get set in the 1st place and how does it reset when I fly to a new time zone and I have jetlag initially and it goes away what's going on well 1st of all a self organizing if you do an experiment with plants or animals where they've never experienced a light dark cycle Nevertheless this 20 approximately 24 hour timing system will self organize it will develop it will be that would be functional of course for it to be useful to an organism it has to synchronize to the light dark cycle because the purpose of this internal body clock is to predict when it's going to be day and when it's going to be night and then the organisms can do things appropriately so that synchronization in the case of mammals. It happens through light acting on the retina of the ice and then through a particular nervous pathway from the eyeball to the hypothalamus natural body clock structure received that information and slightly adjust sits on going rhythm so that the internal time much is very nicely external time and make what actually happens when you you go out of whack with your body clock say when you're jet lagged or the poor people who have to work in shift work as well. That this is unfortunate because evolution never anticipated Boeing airplanes or adverse airplanes so our ability to move between time zones is really going completely against the grain of our body clock because all of a sudden the clock which is predicting when it will be day and will be night is confronted by the situation when the sun's up when it shouldn't be all this is going down when it should be night time and the rule of thumb as people are probably aware is that for every one hour difference in time zone it takes about one day to recover that difference because the processes in the brain were never developed for this circumstance. And so sounds like it's of quite bad for you but what about things like we're staying up later night and when we're looking at our screens a lot is this Do we know if this is sending our body clock out of whack as well that's right because this is this privileged pathway is a particular pathway from from the eye to the body clock in the hypothalamus and it's based on certain types of nerve cells which have a preponderance that they're much more sensitive to blue light so cause lots of monitors and screens have got lots of blue lights in them so it's not just that you're looking at light when the body clock thinks it should be night time what you're looking at the type of light which will stimulate the body clock and kick it sideways as it were. Right so that's where you have a night time made on your phones like exactly exactly that I mean the tech companies are very aware of this is quite good that they do this but I think picking up on what you said before then so I work from the Medical Research Council so you know why is this important for public health the real message from my perspective is that shift work rotational shift work or see people commonly experience just like and we do that for work or we do it for holidays or whatever but it's it's a choice we make and it's it's an acute it's quickly over but we know now from Lee epidemiological evidence studies looking at populations of people and looking at their health status we know now that if people spend a working life on rotating shift work that can cause seems like a 20 percent increase likelihood of them having cardiovascular disease or metabolic disease you know so working a life time working against your body clock constantly trying to reset it is bad for health thanks me stay there make it let's just bring in David Wilcoxon David's at the University of Aberystwyth I notice your Twitter handle David is clocks and crabs you better hope you don't have an L. K. Go wrong as that could get you in the G. Medicine clinic rather than have succeeded in biology lab can you work on animals that naturally do have a rotating cycle of life because they have to keep track of tide that's right as Nick just said that. All organisms have a biological clock and they have to anticipate changes in their environment. And if I can take us away from human slightly. Many many organisms live in an environment that's challenged by incoming and outgoing toit's in the in our coastal regions and in order for them to be successful they have to anticipate and gear themselves up for this change in their environment and so they have a really precise mechanism for keeping at 12.4 hours a tidal rhythm of activity going to sleep like the high tide comes every 12 hours doesn't it so how do they do it in 12 hours when the clocks that you and I've got are running to 24 hours yes actually every 12.4 hours and they really are remarkably accurate. As always is that when it moves on an hour every day doesn't it which is hence the the half an hour that you've got there that's right so how is it doing it so well we have pretty good evidence now actually that remarkably lots of these animals have a title Time Keeper that is entirely say it's separate from the search box or the 24 hour clock so they actually appear to be 2 different at least 2 different timekeeping mechanisms in the same animal. And this is intriguing I mean . Mick said these animals have evolved in this cyclic environment. Over Arment But you know if we if we believe that organisms evolved from an aquatic environment in a marine environment this total clock could be really evolutionary ancient and to have 2 clocks at least 2 clocks in the same animal it is quite remarkable remarkable Gillian Reynolds is in London. Question Mick and David Julian welcome Oh I do like to ask you what the evidence is for your theories on to take. Kadian rest and also you know Paul. In your last answer what's the other clock you said title was The other one they did well. Lots of animals actually use the moon as a guide to keeping times they have lunar clocks as well I'm also lashed you know. And also even a season or annual clock it has as good evidence for the new clocks in the. In the animal and plant is that in things like reindeer where you have the land of the midnight sun or long winters where it's completely dark so actually trying to set your clock in with with the sunlight just wouldn't work. Well I'm Julian Randolph and I write about radios for The Sunday Times and my clock is set by the radio clock and I didn't think you will live tonight a major My choice but today to listen to because I listen to you often up by the clock in the morning now here's my question my cicada can read him seem to change as I grow older I can't sleep much more than 4 hours at night that's because probably I'm 83 now now do we still less as we get older and is our body rhythm influenced by that make high stakes money thing hi jill and congratulations on only been 83 you're absolutely right as people get old Elian still working cause even better yet do the lady justice make. It so yes you hit the money completely as people do get older they do need less sleep and part of the argument there is that $1.00 of the processes of sleep when we're asleep is that brain reorganize itself to make sense of what happened during the day so a newborn infant every day is completely different from anything it's ever experienced but of course. I'm 62 you know I'm nearly where you are not quite but you know most of my days are not very different from the days that went before so that need to reorganize my brain and learn new things is less pressing so the requirement for sleep becomes shorter and shorter as people become older. If I can just come in as at an interesting point. That there's this research ongoing in Oxford about the effect of this the timing of the school day and it's now quite clear that starting the school day at sort of 8 or 9 o'clock in the morning is in terms of the body clock too early for adolescent students to be working effectively done about adolescent students too early for me and. And Georgia but that's your likeness that works sometimes it's been it's always been jealous about your 1st week it were oh it was about 3 hours later they were guys meeting anyway so sorry to interrupt but there's been some very good clear evidence that starting the school day or the academic day an hour or 2 later has really positive benefits in terms of academic achievement and learning here I mean that's impossible for experts to defer. You must say I think you are lying to make all these Yeah I think these claims about school they quite often read your respect David a bit overhyped actually when he started I got one child in infant school one child in junior school and one child a village college and if they'd changed the times of the school my entire day my domestic routine would have been completely destroyed friends of mine who teaches they tell me that in fact they get the best out of the kids in the morning and after lunch time the kids are on a downward slope so OK it may be difficult getting our adolescent children out of bed in the morning but you know let's remember there's a bigger issue around all this sounds like there's a scientific experiment in the brain let's bring in Stacy Harmer who's at the University of California at Davis Stacy welcome to the program so we've heard how animals keep time and even possibly bacteria keep time but also plants do it as well. They do indeed and it's surprising to many people to learn that you don't have to have a brain to have a clock so plants are excellent time keepers and it makes sense when you think about how they live you know they're rooted to one place and so they have to anticipate environmental challenges as they're not able to to move or to otherwise come up with other coping mechanisms some of the 1st experiments done to prove that living things had a sense of time were done on plants when me that's exactly right there was a French astronomer who named a moron who was interested in watching his house plants and he saw that they had a daily rhythm in leaf movement and he did the experiment of putting those plants in his wine cellar and show that even under constant temperature and caustic darkness they still had roughly 24 hour rhythms in the movement we heard from MC that the way in which our brains keep time is that there's a cluster of nerve cells it's about the size of a grain of rice and it ticks around genetically this clock taking about 24 hours to do it is the same approach used by plants sort of those do something different. Plants also have clocks in every cell and they grab it rather than being coordinated by the brain clock the way that it is an animals it seems that that's the clocks in these individual cells are all sort of working in tandem so they're not. Linked together directly but they're all influenced by the environment so they all more or less keep the same pace we're talking to make Hastings overbook Cox and Stacey Harmer who are all experts in how clocks in various animals and species work so you also famously worked out how sunflowers track the sun and they seem to be able to do it perfectly with with predicting when they need to be ready to face the new direction for where the sun rise will be in the morning how do they do that. That's OK well it's a question that we're still working on I have to say but. Some tires are famous for bending during the day to follow the sun so both the stems and the leaves and the heads follow the moving sun and then at night they bend back again from west to east so they're facing east before the sun rises and so we were able to show that they rely on their circadian clock to move back at night. And what about the way in which plants actually flower because they've got an important role to to try and attract insects and things to pollinate and that's what a flower is all about isn't it but flowers also seem to have cycles to them also with us David alluded to a lot of organisms have annual clocks seasonal clocks so Plas rely on their 24 hour clocks to determine daylight and that allows them to distinguish the short days of the winter from the long days of summer and they can use that as a cue to determine when to flower. Oh we've just had a text from a Richard crew he says is it possible humans may eventually evolve to a point well body clock can account for flying and jet lag and jet lag is eliminated and I guess that's a question for you make what you think I suspect not because the process of natural selection and evolution means that the people who lose the game don't pass on their genes to the next generation so I think it would be a very severe selection I don't think that's the case I think Would you don't like we're evolving towards a sort of 24 hour. Knife and then then it's you would have to unwind 4000000000 years of he flew ssion to achieve this I think that the real lesson from cicada in biology is how do you mitigate how do you ameliorate the circumstances particularly for shift work rotational shift work that's not going to disappear it's an economic need as a student I work shifts it's good money it's a good thing to do but we recognise the health cost is a stress and so people in shift work I suggest should be under more regular health screening look at it as a look at the cardiovascular condition look at the metabolic condition some people because of their genetic makeup will be better suited to shift than other people so it's not that shift work should stop it's just that we can make it smart shift work use the biology to make it more effective so they go Richard unfortunately we can't evolve our way out of the problem we just select our way putting the right people with the right body clock in the right job in future so that Stacey quick question Is it possible then given the plans of have got body clocks to jet like a plant could I git like a cabbage if I was so inclined. You could absolutely to like a cabbage and reduce things like that in the lab or you create thing Y. . Well because we want to understand how they can deal with changing environmental conditions and how they can cope with environmental cues there would be consequences for it like in your cabbage though I mean it was it was sort of it was from a serious underpinning that the reason I also that obvious place is because of course one thing that shops and supermarkets do all the time is harvest crops and then store them under variable like conditions for enormous periods of time and when they're in the supermarket on the shelf the fruits and things we want to buy are under all these really bright lights the mix telling us that lights important you are telling us lots important plants or does that make a difference it can make a difference it's been shown in fact that you know when you when you buy a plant at the market it's still alive it still has a clock function in the cells and it's producing helpful compounds with a 24 hour rhythm and so the time that plant thinks it is can determine how much of useful nutrients that plant is making. And I'm speaking of sort of changing environments so the climate is changing massively David what is this going what effect is this going to have to have body clocks because obviously there's a lot of migration going on different parts of the world have different kind of light cycles is this something you're seeing in your work. It's something we're certainly investigating. We know for example in the Arctic in the polar regions that. Things like the ice front so retreating the ice is melting is becoming thinner and we believe this is having quite a large impact on animals that are synchronized by no more light dark cycles because the ice ordinarily suppresses the amount of light that's getting through. Into the water and so it's having an impact on the animals that live under the ice in terms of their normal synchronization of their normal rhythm. And the other thing that we're being found is that organisms in the as the oceans are becoming warmer they're migrating for example further north into the Arctic but that means horse like Jet lag is their body clocks aren't actually set to the rhythm of the for the this example the Arctic lighting regime so they're moving from an environment because of the temperature but the lighting regime is different from what they used to and we don't really know what what impact this is going to have on those organisms and these are organisms that underpin the whole world ecosystem these are tiny planktonic organisms that feed all the other organisms in that environment and you know this could have quite large impacts ecological impacts and that's something we're investigating at the moment from that biological clock perspective and make one of the things we flagged up at the beginning is that there's growing evidence we're going into winter now in giving people flu vaccines and things that different drugs work differently if given at different times of day to different people. It's absolutely case. If we look for example to simply experiment a new in fact lab mice with a virus in the morning or in the evening you find that depend on when you make the infection the lab mice show much heavy a load of virus depend on one time of day in another Sophist of all our bodies vulnerability to invasive organisms to infection change on this occasion cycle and then of course the way in which our body fights infections down to our immune system and we know that a very strong body clock influences on our immune system so this goes back to the idea of if you're a rotational shift worker and the clocks in your immune system and not functioning quite as well as it should do then again over a lifetime of doing that you're more prone to infectious diseases. Mick thank you very much for joining us and thank you actually 2 of our guests in the 1st half hour thing to Stacy Harmon from U.C. Davis David bow Coxon from the University of Aberystwyth and Mick Hastings whom you heard there at the University of Cambridge we had a text message someone said I've been flying long haul as cabin crew for 38 years I can testify jetlag cannot be cured only managed by blind science with Dr Chris Smith and American scientists and if you enjoy that you can download more of the same and all of our other podcasts from the B.B.C. Sounds out. To. You. When you use the smarts for this C.B.C. 5 times. It's 5 o'clock this is morning reports on 5 Live I'm on a hunch is our top story this morning the government is insisting tomorrow's Commons votes on Teresa Mayes Bragg's that deal will go ahead as planned despite significant opposition to it from her own backbench M.P.'s Some leading conservative banks it is a raging the prime ministers who go back to Brussels to persuade the E.U. To remove the Irish banks stop his political correspondent in what some She's trying to address some of the concerns of her own M.P.'s a specialist question of the Irish backstop as it's called We have avoiding hardboard on an island there are fears that we're tired long term into E.U. Rules now she needs to get Brussels on side was going to do that and of course started government and strangely enough she spoke to both the president of the European Council and Irish counterpart that is to show. At last night but it's still not clear just anything of substance to offer. In order to either avoid a very big defeat if she goes ahead and Tuesday or even if it's postponed whether she can diffuse that in the interim Manchester City's Raheem Sterling is accused newspapers of fueling the issue of racism about collective media in sports says it hopes the strike is comments serve as a wake up call the Met police and Chelsia both investigating allegations he was racially abused at some for Bridge on Saturday is the former Wolves midfielder Col Henry there is a feeling and certainly seen the comments from from other footballers of the black and I think Martin footballers under Raines comments I think certainly shows there's a huge amount support there and certainly a feeling of institutional racism within sectors of the media a 26 year old man has been remanded in custody charged with murdering a British backpacker in New Zealand Grace Milan he was $22.00 and from Essex went missing more than a week ago yesterday police found a body they believed to be hers on the outskirts of Oakland prisons in the U.K. Have the highest number of inmates serving life sentences in Europe according to a new reports.