News and live sport this is c b c 5 my. Boston Globe. Has the news our top story wintry weather causes problems for drivers in Scotland and Northern England. And in Melbourne at the astray in open court very shortly for his 2nd round match. This is b.b.c. 5 live hundreds of people are still stuck in snow on a motorway in southern Scotland the southbound m. 74 spin close with some drivers having spent several hours in their cars James Coles is from the Moffat mountain rescue team or volunteers What about dozen of our team members out to all of our team there cause I'm that's me one of our teams personal vehicles are out on the motorway at the moment there are also police state schools and all the state and on top of that things like that cancelling the Amy critters who were snowplows So we're trying to get the roads moving again Amber weather warnings remain in force across parts of Scotland Northern Ireland with Met Office yellow warnings for snow for much of the rest of the u.k. The government's asked for an inquiry into the directors of the collapsed firm Karelian to be fast tracked and widened so the pay and conduct a former bosses can also be investigated firms going to liquidation with debts of 1500000000 pounds the Old Bailey has heard that a teacher who was fascinated by the Islamic state group plotted a series of attacks on London landmarks the prosecution claims and listed other men from his local mosque to try to groom children using role play and extremist videos he denies the charges police in California have praised the bravery of a 17 year old girl who escaped from a house and raised the alarm about her 12 brothers and sisters who were allegedly being held captive Captain Greg fellows is from the county sheriff's department. The 17 year old also showed some photos that led to Debbie's a believe that the information she was provided was accurate we do need to acknowledge the courage of the young girl that was skate from that residence to bring attention so they could get the help that they so need it the parents have been arrested and charged with torture and child endangerment victims of sexual abuse by the former USA Gymnastics team Dr Lowery Nasser have been giving statements at his sentencing hearing the course of Michigan's allowing up to 125 women to speak live here Cowen is among them I will educate many children. About my stories like you and pray to God they were never experienced pain like this. There will be a day before I look into my saw her name was still see the scars of this man. And I will no longer feel the deep and serve their pain patients with long term conditions are waiting too long to find out if they're eligible for n.h.s. Funding for their care according to the public accounts committee found that in some cases patients have died while waiting for a decision Bridget Phillipson is one of the report's authors we also know the clinical condition groups of course to make major savings well not clear how they will be able to achieve that without the impact on patient care without changing the threshold criteria where concerned about the impact that could happen patients and we want to see and h.s. England and department do far more to get this right and just England says it disagrees with the committee's opinion as the 5 Live new sport out 1st an update from Melbourne where our tennis correspondent Russell Fuller is at the Australian Open. The doubles match on Court 13 is in its closing stages so called Edmond on court shortly to play tennis Istomin for a place in the 3rd round of the men's singles Alina Spitz Alina the 4th seed in the women's draw is now one settle with Katherine Sidney a coven of the Czech Republic and you have 2 defeats for doubles British doubles players and any protean out of Smith going out in the 1st round as well as Laura Robson and her American partner Coco van the way the rest of the sport now from Shabnam you know still less destroying to a Nacho has made history by scoring the 1st goal in English football to be awarded by a video assistant referee it was his 2nd of the f.a. Cup game is less to be Fleetwood 2 nil to go through to the 4th round to face Peterborough away Rhys Berg scored his 1st goal for West Ham in the 2nd half of extra time to edge on shores break one will play the winner of the 3rd round replay between Wigan and Bournemouth the rest of tonight's results are on the b.b.c. Sport website it's understood Manchester United are close to reaching an agreement with manager Joe's in Marino over a new contract his present deal expires next year and Curran Wilson has won his 1st match as new because Masters beating Barry Hawkins 64 to go through to the quarterfinals where he'll meet Mark Williams This is b.b.c. 5 live on digital online smartphone and wintry shares continuing with the snow accumulating in places especially in hilly areas bitterly cold with gales turning severe in the far southwest later in the day the showers slowly easing snow increasingly being restricted to just northern parts brightest in the southeast rain Hill snow and strong winds arriving in the west later in the data come out of the mayor's film review will be that if you are so close together and now we're On am and f.m. Are under u.k. On digital and online and brought sharply up all night stadium astray and said news Olympic Park is heading for a major in that expensive refer since it was built for the 2000 Olympics the studio has done for 5 sports Rugby League Rugby Union a still young rules football cricket is the only stadium in the world to host 5 fashion sports but it was built 110000 people could all get there and then it was rebuilt to accommodate fewer people and the new government plan would knock it down and start again I mean are 17 years since it opened all for a trifling 2000000000 astray dollars. All over Britain is 5 plus 25 Avon on Cape Hatteras National Seashore North Carolina 5 prostate Leclaire on the Iowa side of the Mississippi River in Mark Twain's day river boat pilots used to gather under a great green tree and hire the services to ply the 14 mile long 1000000 Rapids 57 in Golden Colorado the works of the it off Coors brewery dominate this place and tourism free beer offered every day except Sunday 5 posix and found there were California here on a summer sun the volunteer fire brigade race each other to put out imaginary fires knowing that in this tone of old wooden structures every 2nd cuts our news comes from c.b.s. . News c.b.s. News on the hour. On Pam Colter the naval officers in command of 2 destroyers involved in deadly collisions last year will face courts martial and negligent homicide charges c.b.s. Is Cammie McCormick has details in a v. Says it's filing negligent homicide charges against the commanders of the u.s.s. Fitzgerald and the u.s. Has John McCain The charges will be presented at a hearing which would then determine whether the 2 were court martialled the collisions involving the Navy ships and commercial vessels off the coast of Asia cost the lives of $17.00 u.s. Sailors other charges include dereliction of duty in hazarding a vessel president truck past his physical of Walter Reed last week with flying colors c.b.s. a Stephen Portnoy has details the president's overall health is excellent the White House position says the 71 year old president may not have the best diet or exercise regimen in fact he has none to speak of but Dr Rani Jackson says Donald Trump's cardiac health is in the excellent range it's called genetics I don't know if a rear admiral in his current role since 2013 Jackson says Mr Trump would benefit from healthier eating and more physical activity he says of the president's urging he administered a cognitive exam. Reports Mr Trump scored a perfect 30 out of 30 Steven Portnoy c.b.s. News the White House their shock in a southern California neighborhood where 13 children ages 2 to 29 were found store to even chained inside their home c.b.s. Says Chris Martinez is in Paris California we learned today that the 17 year old girl who was the one who alerted authorities as to what was going on she escaped from the family's home through a window and she used a phone that belonged to the family to call for help we also learned today that she had photos of the conditions inside the house that she was able to show directly to deputies the children are being treated at a hospital their parents are being held on $9000000.00 bail each I say winter weather is closed schools in Houston and Police Chief Art of a Doe says there are lots of highway wrecks we've responded to 278 crashes 104 them have been major 3 inches of snow and black ice has also made the driving hazardous in parts of Louisiana State Trooper Glen younger it's not common here in Louisiana to drive in the proper conditions and it looks like it's going to get worse tonight as it freezes again Eagle singer Glenn fried died 2 years ago he says his widow is now suing New York's Mount Sinai Hospital saying it failed to properly treat his ulcerative colitis The Dow dropped 10 points today this is c.b.s. News a British food retailer is the 1st in the world to commit to a plastic free future with billions if not trillions of plastic bags and packaging clogging the world's landfills and oceans Britain's Iceland supermarket chain says it's decided to take a stand it's phasing out all plastic packaging on its own brand products over the next 5 years we are determined to do that somebody to do it in the right way Iceland exec Nigel brought her says that means ensuring that the paper used to replace the packaging is also drawn from sustainable woodlands so that the solution to one and vie. A mental problem doesn't worsen another to keep Ocker c.b.s. Needs London if you think you're going to sneeze doctor say you should let it rip rather than trying to hold it in that follows the case of a man who ruptured the back of his throat while trying to stifle a sneeze by holding his nose and closing his mouth specialists in England say trying to contain a forceful sneeze could lead to numerous complications Pam Colter c.b.s. News. Well all I can tell you is that I am watching the traffic Scotland Trunk Road grosser tracker and I can see this Grettir's I know on the I'm 74 as indeed they have been all night and if you're in one of those presser sank you very much for for what you're doing and what you're trying to do nevertheless as we still know the I'm 74 is close by and and we can't get anybody from traffic Scotland or from Police Scotland to talk to us have all gone for good night's sleep I'm not kidding but we can get rather wonderful rescue to have another chat with us James calls us back Hello James Good evening. Well what are you having What are you seeing what you've been seeing that this morning in the last hour or so. Sir the situation we're seeing at the moment I'll just have an update from from 3 Scotland 2 who were alongside and counselor to the center in in the interests. And of the moment. Junction 14 and 15 doing northbound there are it is moving again northbound but between junction of 14 and 15 there are now 3 jacknifed lorries in lane 3 but it is possible on like once a traffic is getting by slowly going all around. I'm on the southbound side a junction 14 the critters are going up and down the motorway northbound and southbound on the on the southbound carriageway trying to make that so we can be the vehicles can get moving again and they are starting to move against slowly going southbound being helped a little bit by We've got a little bit of a break in the weather. But. We are continuing to work with that and. Yes it is kind of a situation we've got a moment we still got rescue guys and the police are out on the on the m 74 and we're working with they're working with drivers in the cars well that's great and that's good news actually from the police isn't it that the critters are working on a junction 14 and are they are the police did you get the impression police are then holding traffic until the grass or some finish their work or are they waiting until is a good time to start letting people funnel through. The way they're working or believe they are working in a position where we can still start to get some traffic to move even though we're still trying to clear the road so we are believe there is some. Southbound traffic still managing to filter through while the critters a still working on the road as well so right right so there is there is movement on the southbound side Jim says that's just great have you come across any situations of real need since we talked to you I asked people generally Ok so far. I think mostly the guy the reports we're hearing are mostly guys are Ok they're obviously. Stoic about the about the situation we've got. And but there are they're not going down and and you know and working with us not a sleaze not a good situation and guys have been there for many hours now but everybody critters are please call and. Count to reach Department everyone's working really hard to try to get the road back running again well I don't think there's much more we can we can ask of you at this particular point. Thanks. So much for one of my well one of the skull and colleagues has just come to me with a with an update and a request on really on the guys who are out there which is a bit of further advice is. That Please people couldn't travel on the what we call the a.p.r. Road which is a service road that runs parallel with the m 74. We treated his vehicle stuck in both directions we really struggling to be a to get our vehicles up to come and help support people on the I'm 74. As much as it's frustrating being on the motorway trying to get off and come down the the actual service a.p.r. Rotis is compounding the situation. And this is not the hard shoulder this is another road as it runs parallel to the motorway that has created it's the older a 74 the tower with the with the now moved to am 74 the body is the impossible at the moment. It's 7076 right so basically the police are saying please stay off that because it hasn't been treated you can get stuck and it is just going to compound the problem finally or it we already have several jackknifes lorries on it so it's already blocked effect anyway so. As all the people are going to end up coming off the motorway could end up in a worse situation and they're in now. Well listen anything that you and and the police are sharp and want to get through. Sue us to people on the road please please don't hesitate because that really is what we're here for a night like this I hope hope we got better news in an hour but we'll stay in touch with major him somewhere north of the grateful to you Ok no problems Ok Thanks very much good night that's James Coles who is deputy leader of the Moffat mountain rescue team. Well by the magic of radio we're now going to translate ourselves to Sydney and join film Hello Phil yes morning to you wrote hello and we know it's going to get hot again and we know that you've already had the over 40 degree weather sounds like it's coming back a bit. It is we're expecting 37 degrees here in Sydney early next week and for people who like to enjoy some a sports it will be another challenging period and when we think of the Australian summer Rob we just don't think of beaches in the heat sports is an essential ingredient selfie antipodean summer we've had the ashes were into the one day series between England and Australia the Big Bash is in full flow as is the a league and in the last couple of days as we've been hearing the Australian Open has begun those exchanges down in Melbourne and there is a pretty furious debate it has to be said here in Sydney Australia is biggest city about where spectators can watch and enjoy elite competition now towards the end of last year the state government here in New South Wales said that Sydney's Olympic stadium and the Sydney Football Stadium this is the grounds next to the s c g towards the center of Sydney would be demolished and rebuilt at a price tag of around $1300000000.00 There are those who believe that this is betraying the legacy of the Sydney Olympics of 2000 and we're joined from the Blue Mountains to the west of Sydney by John d. Johnny's co-founder and managing director of do something this is an environmental group and John was on the Environment Committee for the Sydney 2000 Olympic bid and helped to draw up its environmental guidelines thanks very much for joining us today John what's your main concern with this plan by the government here in New South Wales to knock down those 2 stadiums. Well there's 2 problems really firstly the Olympic Stadium was designed on the basis of green guidelines to be flexible and to be upgraded and changed so it wouldn't end up as a white elephant and indeed you know only this year we've spent millions of dollars replacing foreign object as a roof sheeting at the Olympic Stadium and that roofing is designed to last for 20 years so it's been widely accepted that the stadium itself is very flexible studying the Olympic Stadium it is certainly designed to be upgraded so that it doesn't need to be demolished at some point and of course the other issue is that when it came to getting the original limb pick lympics the right to host the Sydney 2000 Olympics. Sydney went out to the world with all of these environmental commitments about how it would be the greenest games ever to be organized anywhere in the world and we had some significant environmental plate is as part of our bid you know on energy conservation water conservation and particularly as it relates to the Olympic Stadium waste avoidance and minimization pollution avoidance and protection of the natural environment now of course if you start knocking down and big stadiums less than 20 years after they've been built you're going to have quite a significant environmental impact and of course on top of that the cost of refurbishing the stadium would only be about $350000000.00 whereas demolishing it and rebuilding a new stadium would cost us $1200000000.00 So we would save many hundreds of millions of dollars as well. And in the run up to the Olympics you had something of a p.r. Coup didn't you you recruited Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise to present the video for the Sydney 2000 Games bid and before I ask you John how you managed to get that Hollywood power couple involved this road is just an excerpt of that video I'm personally very excited that Sydney might have the honor of hosting the 2000 games for me the environmental part of Sydney's bid means a great deal I grew up in Sydney and it would be wonderful if my hometown could provide an environmental role model for the world but no matter which city wins the bid we can all benefit from the guidelines to proposed the city guidelines are an extraordinary example of how progress and development can work hand in hand with the environment from energy conservation and the use of solar power to waste water treatment in recycling guidelines set a new standard John how did you manage to get hold of Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise for that. Well I was a member of the Sydney chief as and Environment Committee for the Bedouin in addition to writing the environmental guidelines for the bid I also said well you know I know someone is best mates with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman what I'm going to approach them so I got on the phone to them and before long I was writing the script with Tom and Nicole and in September not in 93 you know I flew out to Los Angeles and directed the video and then all of a sort of p.r. Or getting that video out to the world and we released it only days before the decision was actually made on who would get to Sydney who would get the 2000 Dylan picks and it was the single biggest p.r. Hit of the entire Games bid and I think that's one of the reasons why i guess i'm really feel very strongly about this we went out to the world not just with the you know the biggest power couple in Hollywood but we went out as a key part of our bid and clan Antonio Sassaman she was then i.o.c. President acknowledged that the environmental part of Sydney's bit was a key reason why we actually wanted to you know it was a very professional bid but the environmental guidelines were a key part of why we won and if we'd gone to the i.o.c. In the world saying Ok here's our bid is the green games on by the way within 20 years we're going to demolish this adaptable lympics stadium totally demolish it and replace it I actually don't think we would have actually won the right to host the Olympics. Hello John that it's right here that's pleasure to talk to you what's going on there at the moment to me whose whose decision is that to to knock down your stadium and start again well it's a decision of the The New South Wales Government and look a lot of us a struggling with this there's other people like Peter Peter Fitzsimons who's a well known sports export star and media commentator and author who has had over 150000 people sign a petition saying let's stop this and we're all asking for the financials you know what is the business case to totally demolished a stadium that is less than 20 years old you know we know as I said at the start of the interview that this stadium was built to be adaptable you know so it's you know when the games you could see 110000 people but what ended up happening after the games we removed and recycled the end the temporary end stands of the stadium after the Games and that brought the capacity of the stadium down to $80000.00 and also just when you when you look at things like the the roof in the structure was designed so that we could add additional trusses so that if you wanted to put in a retractable roof we could even do that as well down the line so for people who have been involved in the original in picks bid like myself and others were totally perplexed as to why we would want to knock down the Olympic Stadium when so many people refer to it as a state of the art stadium in terms of its flexibility and in terms of the desire of the government to upgrade the facility and make it more spectator friendly there was actually in 2014 a construction contract that was awarded to a construction giant Lange or rogue to redevelop the stadium and as I said that was worth that refer vision was going to cost $350000000.00 It would have given us all the changes that were being promised by this 1.2. 1000000000 dollar demolition and new stadium construction and so certainly here in Sydney and throughout Australia a lot of questions are being asked of the New South Wales Government as to why we need to spend 1200000000 dollars when the stadium is still so new and the other issue of course is all those people who remember the lympics just look back to Cathy Freeman who was an indigenous woman in Australia who as one of the 1st Australians you know won the 400 metres and you know the Olympic flame at that stadium and I think from a cultural and historical point of view I think it's really really wrong to demolish something that has such a key part in a strenuous history. And can you just clarify this for us are there to stadiums involved here I mean is there a Sydney Football Stadium as well as in the Olympic stadium and are they are they both threatened. They certainly are so this is what's interesting I guess because if you think of sport in Australia everyone thinks of Melbourne you know everyone is sports crazy in Melbourne every weekend there all the stadiums absolutely packed out with very different in in Sydney you know you don't get stadiums being full that often so there are 2 studying that they're proposing to demolish and spend about 2 and a half $1000000000.00 on doing that and they're also building a 3rd stadium at him Western Sydney which you know to be fair is something that is actually needed we do need to have a good stadium at in Western Sydney where there's definitely demand for it but with regards to getting rid of the you know the the other stadium the city football stadium you know that is something that again does need upgrading but I think the key issue for people involved in the Olympics is that the Sydney Olympic stadium has a key part in our history and has a key part in our culture and it's a stadium that is State of the art it's less than 20 years old and to spend one point $2000000000.00 demolishing something that has as such an important part in our history and such an important part in our community I think you know it literally will be wasting many hundreds of millions of dollars and certainly the questions that have been asked and have not been answered is what is the business case to back up the demolition of both stadiums but in particular there you know what is the business case and that's something we've been asking the New South Wales premier Gladys Persia Cleon and she has refused to answer that publicly and I think if you're going to spend $1200000000.00 replacing the Olympic Stadium if you're going to spend 2 and a half $1000000000.00 on you know replacing and building new stadiums I think you should be accountable to the public in how you spend that public money. Handed back over to fill but this is a state government decision as Phil's not a it's not a national government decision. No it's not and you have to remember also that there's a bit of England rugby history in all of this as well when England won the Rugby Union Well come here in Australia in 2003 it was at the Olympic Stadium so there'd be many rugby fans from around the world who'd have very fond memories of not only those England matches but Bledisloe Cup games involving New Zealand as world. John one final question for me when we look at the Sydney Harbor Bridge for example opened in the 19th thirties with great vision it still does a fantastic job today with 6 lanes of traffic with railway lines with pedestrian walkway is and the potential for more road capacity underneath do you think that what's happening to these stadiums in Sydney is just a sign of the time that decision makers just don't have the sort of vision that they did when they were planning the Sydney Harbor Bridge for example. Well look the argument here is very clear we did actually plan the original a big stadium to be flexible and to be upgraded and it was designed to be that way and so you know that was a key part of the environmental guidelines when we were putting those together for the original and it was that the stadium had to be an international exemplar and if you look at Paris you know Paris is with their lympics they are spending less money on all of their stadiums and then use for the Paris 2024 Olympics then Sydney is planning to spend on demolishing and building one new stadium to replace the Olympic Stadium so I think we've got our you know we've got our priorities wrong we you know the original lympics stadium this there right now has already been adapted and is designed to further adaptation I think this is a matter of politicians as usual spending public money on grandiose projects that actually do not need to take place you know there's absolutely no need why we cannot refurbish the Olympic Stadium and therefore keep all that history and culture intact but improve it to ensure that it hosts sporting events in a far better way than it does now. John you've made your case most eloquently thank you so much for being with us thanks for having me appreciate it. John d. Is co-founder and managing director of the environmental group do something and it's help us to form digital online smart fun and tablets this is b.b.c. 5 Live The news comes from Stuart Clarkson snow and ice are causing serious problems on the roads in Scotland Northern Ireland and Northern England the main Most way between Scotland and England the m 74 has been closed because of snow with some drivers stuck there for several hours we're hearing in the last few minutes that the accident has been cleared at Millbank a junction 12 am the southbound am 74 is now reopening Also this morning Union leaders are expected to hold further talks later with the Business Secretary Greg Clarke to try to minimise the impact of Karelia going bust around $30000.00 smaller businesses are thought to be at risk following the firm's collapse victims of sexual abuse by the 4 USA Gymnastics team Dr Larry Nasser had been giving statements at his sentencing hearing court in Michigan's allowing up to 125 women to speak and the victim's commissioner is warning that at least 250 children and vulnerable witnesses are being denied proper justice every year because of a shortage of specially trained intermediaries a report by Lady new levees calling for a new national service to be set up to avoid the current postcode lottery There's the headline sport now and let's say 1st a Melbourne and the Australian Open where we can join devil than just about to get underway is the British number 2 car Edmond the only man in the draw the singles draw for the Australian Open because of Andy Murray's absence he's just about to get underway in his 2nd round match against Denis Istomin who's the man that beat Novak Djokovic Shane a big shock here last year Edmund has a great draw now though only one player higher ranked than him before the quarter finals so a huge opportunity perhaps to make some progress here elsewhere in the women's draw Alina's fitter leaner has just managed to come through one of the higher seeds she's come through in 3 sets now with the rest of the day's sports here's Chapman Eunice to history has been made in the f. A compass a video assistant referee awarded a goal for the 1st time in English football It happened during Lester's tuna when oversleep would strike a a a nacho 2nd goal was decided by v.a.r. And magic Lord poor praised its efficiency I think it's a good thing of course because it's a goal was was. Also because because a timeless known nor so long to take a side video and to take the decision it was a quarter less to go to Peterborough in the 4th round respect scored his 1st goal for West Ham in the 2nd half of extra time to be sure he won l they'll play the winner of the 3rd round replay between Wigan and Bournemouth elsewhere Cardiff City can look forward to a clash with Premier League leaders month just a city after winning $41.00 at Mansfield Sheffield Wednesday beat Carlisle to no to set up an all Championship time with reading who overcame Steven age 3 nil it's understood Manchester United are close to reaching an agreement with manager Joe Zimmer a no over a new contract his current deal expires next year the f.a. Gerville the Aston Vanga called referee Mike Dean not honest and a disgrace after all draw at West Brom on New Year's Eve led to Bangas 3 much touchline ban Meanwhile Theo Walcott's had a medical It's evident the head of a proposed 20000000 pound with former Everton black Kevin Kilbane says the club could really use his speed of the walking pace the other side told you should bring to the public but straight away after the fall of most of the 10 top players of if you get a lot of players that a go ma diao if you can make possible there's no there's no real she was pacing the side are in London both of the fired if you're looking for players going off defenders and you've got players to pick them up think exact type of quiet Newcastle United owner Mike Ashley is believed to have ended talks with business woman among the Staveley over at stake over that could have been worth around 250000000 pounds Ashley said in October he wanted to sell the club after 10 years in charge and Karen Wilson has his 1st win. Sneakers Masters after coming back from behind twice to be Barry Hall can 6 fall off in the 2nd frame was the big one I think I'm running out of 50 in it but it was just to sort of say you know I'm not going to go away if you make this entry so I just tried to put him under a little pressure a little bit of pressure and here it seems to work for me he'll face Mark Williams in the quarterfinals. Continuous line in the players' . And just to reiterate what we heard there from a store Clarkson on the news that traffic Scotland has tweeted within last 15 minutes that the m 74 southbound Junction 12 is now open and their tweet says traffic is beginning to move south bound please know this will take time to clear and return to normal We'll keep you updated when the traffic clears thanks to the grosser drivers for getting the roads reopened Yes thank you to the 2 valiant dresser drivers who are right now going backwards and forwards backwards and forwards and other things traffic Scotland on their twitter feed good advice if you are driving snow used up headlights and gentleman you versus the really big deal isn't it don't don't drive too fast it doesn't matter where you are don't drive too fast. Drive to the conditions and drive gently Well that said it's time for us to return to film Archer in Sydney who has a new guest Russell felt. Is right thanks Rod we're going to talk in the next few minutes about the most dangerous man in the world this is how Julian Assange and sure an Australian born in Townsville the founder of Wiki Leaks in 2006 is being described by our next guest Andrew Fowler is an author and former journalist at the a.b.c. Here in Sydney thanks very much for sparing the time and for coming in plenty to talk about Julian Assange it would seem never out of the headlines the most dangerous man in the world the inside story of Julian Assange is your work published what 7 or 8 years ago why did that title come from 2011 well it came from the fact that Daniel Ellsberg the person who leaked the Pentagon Papers was described by Henry Kissinger the National Security Advisor for Richard Nixon as the most dangerous man in the world when I interviewed Ellsberg who was a supporter of psychology as I said well if you described as most dangerous men in the world by or in America by Kissinger does that make science the most dangerous man in the world Ellsberg said Yes it certainly does and he should embrace it as I embraced being the most dangerous man in America is this because of his work with Wiki Leaks and the the mountain of information that he's leaked online that's right that's exactly why he was described as i mean being dangerous may be seen as a good thing particularly if you're a journalist to suggest that being a dangerous journalist is a good thing to be. Well you wrote this book on Julian Assange before he took asylum in the Ecuadorian embassy in June 201212 how much contact with Julian a century since that time well I've been to see him a number of times 3 times in the embassy and we've. We've got on quite well he's he's put his views I express mine I think that Assad has managed to survive in that small space remarkably well and to maintain his his demeanor to remain his reasonable in this when all others I think would have possibly gone crazy now smart driven intense have been words to describe Julian a sense over the years just painted bit of a picture of what he's like he's quite a toll gangling gangly Australian does he display any of the typical sort of bluntness that we associate with it with Australians for example not at all I have no idea what you're talking about. If a student union calls it like it is I mean that's what he does he does what I think journalists should do which is why I describe songe as a 1st class journalist he doesn't hold back and what's interesting is if you asked a question about Australians and being blunt speakers you actually have Rupert Murdoch home one side and Julia songe on the other both coming out of a stroller and it's a question to ask because they hold very difficult very different political impetus offical views and yet they do have a very direct manner which can irritate But then again good journalism is I think designed to irritate whom you can safely say that Julian essential is irritate it's a very powerful people the problem has of course is that irritates people be doesn't have the power to hit them the way that the other great Australian does have so consequently rather a one sided match which is why he's locked up in the in the embassy and he's locked up there for a very good reason because he fears being x. . Dieted did not states America something that originally when he said I'm really fearful of going via Sweden to the United States he was pooping I argued with him and said look it's not him this is a long boat really Julian to be going to you know 1st of all Sweden and then to the u.s. It's a long way to go. Because of all sorts of sort of things that have to fall into place for that to happen we just so happens of course that a songe who is irritatingly often right is right again because this looks like the pathway few steps out of the embassy he'll be nabbed on the bail charges he broke the bio to go into the embassy and will be whisked off to to face United States because the Attorney General Jeff Sessions and said This is the guy we want we want to grab him and the head of the CIA described him as running a hostile intelligence agency there's no doubt the Americans want him and those people that have who decide to many of them particularly right wing u.k. Media have had a field day saying Judy was paranoid about what they should actually I think I'm think again about some what they read all those years ago. I wonder Hello it's Rod here I'm afraid I haven't had the benefit of reading your book but you've missed a very good look there wrote I am sure I have an outhouse out with it but this is Andrew and as always Christmas well. You want if you knew I was into the know when I called shooting the messenger that's by Routledge out in April so I've enjoyed that too oh well thank you for that. When you talk to Julian Assange is on these occasions did you talk to him about his attitude to. The things that that appear on Wiki Leaks and things that particular appeared on Wiki Leaks joining the 2016 campaign you know I'm thinking about the Clinton emails and that kind of thing I mean what was his what was his take on having been so really intimately involved in the presidential election well I haven't directly raised that with the saw as I wasn't didn't see him last year. But all he did in my opinion was to do what any journalist would do with information which showed the kind of manipulation and dodgy practice that was going on inside the Congress Democrat Congress he revealed what was going on and I thought that was a 1st class journalistic effort. And he talked about the way the Democratic Party was loading the day set against Mr Sanders For example I mean that was one of the things in these exchanges you know Sure absolutely I mean and for him to call it a hack by the way is not right I mean it was basically somebody who clicked on from what I understand and the person I think inside the Democrat Party has admitted this and they clicked on a link that was sent to them and sent their password off to whoever it was who was fishing for this information but that's beside the point the point is that a songe got this information from where I don't know he says not Russia he says not Russia so wherever he got it from he published it and I think it was to the benefit of us all that we understood the sort of really I thought personally quite disgraceful way in which the dice were being loaded against Sanders. And I think that if you as a journalist if you're looking at what the repercussions are of what you do then I think 1st you don't know what the real repercussions are going to be and secondly it's your job to basically. People to make an informed decision as best you can rather than try and help Hillary win if you like which was a basic sort of attack on Assad was that he let this monster into the White House. What what's your take on on his personal. State moment I mean given that he has been in there how long has he been Ecuadorian embassy now 4 years 555 years 5 years Yeah well I mean so he's only I love how is he surviving this long long. The deprivation of liberty aspiration might seem sort of internal exile Well I think what he's doing is he has a lot of people who go see him he has a lot of people he talks to he writes a lot he's very active as we know and he manages to keep a good sense of humor when I last saw him but to be 18 months 2 years ago he was in very good spirits and and very charming is very reasonable He's none of the pictures of the kind of person that you see painted by people who are his I would say political or even journalistic averse or his opponents he's somebody who's quite charming he be a 1st class dinner guest I mean he's he's not he's not the sort of. Painted by many people who wish him such. And. When you in the new book coming out by understand that your argument is that since 2001 and and sense the rather draconian laws are brought in to try to stop terrorists from. Doing whatever they wanted to do. That's that's been the big lever that's been used against journalism and you know I think I might just sort of put in a point of view here which is that's not all it's been going on in journalism though is it because journalism has been weakened by other pressures you know commercial pillars. Erode it couldn't come at a worse time I mean no matter what you think of what journalists do we do play an important role in society in times holding. Particular executive government to account and at the very time when that's really needed. Journalism is at its weakest destroyed in many ways by by the Internet and also by I think the the. The victory of the executive to. Draw close to them powerful journalists so it's a 2 pronged attack you've actually got Jonas themselves of giving up many of their of their rights for the easy feed for for the leak for something that comes with a government stamp on it on the other side you've got as you say the financial problems money draining out of of companies I mean the b.b.c. Is terribly underfunded what it does and that's under attack from executive government at the same time print media losing money through advertising being drawn away and being torn away because because readers and viewers are moving away as well into other forms of getting their news I mean it's a complicated area as you know but just to recap Chris to recap it's it's a double edged sword it's a clamp journalism's in a time when it's needed most to be strong and independent is the time when it's under its most severe attack both by the executive government and also by its financial constraints. For the new book and shooting the messenger you interviewed Edward Snowden the former CIA contractor who leaked surveillance and phone records what did you learn from him in this regard. Well firstly I learnt some it's interesting when you I didn't meet it was known but I talked to him via video link and as I met I did meet you in the Sarge and the people you meet and the people you read about with 2 very different people I spent must be an hour and a half talking to Ed Snowden and becomes across as somebody who is extremely reasonable measured well meaning and decent he comes across as somebody who actually would lay down their life for their principles and although obviously some of the details I got for the book were important as I walked out of the room having had this long conversation with this person has been variously described as a as a traitor I think even by I think even biased radian minister. Braveheart be a traitor It was very well known American but by the way. I got the impression that he was somebody who said when they said when I did this job when I released these documents I felt as though I had fulfilled my life I've actually done the right thing I felt that I'd discharge my duty I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't done that and that's why when he talks to you he will actually he's he's quite comfortable in his own skin what he told me about the internal workings of the of the n.s.a. Which is where he was a contractor. Was that he had raised the issue of the problems of the n.s.a. What they were up to which we subsequently discover of course published in The Washington Post in New York Times and various other publications were true the n.s.a. Was overstepping the mark all the time into territory where it was illegal certainly unconstitutional as your own challenge in that particular constitution but he was laying down the marker and saying this is as far as we go and people need to be aware and I think that that discussion has helped us all understand the importance of dealing with what's called the surveillance state and to understand that we can lose our freedom our liberty our privacy really easily and it's not done quickly it's done over a period of time there was a b.b.c. Profile of Julian Assange which the headline was campaigner or attention seeker you could probably the same question of They'd would Snowden are the similarities between those 2 men and also why would someone want to take those sorts of risks in terms of ending up in a broom cupboard in the Ecuadorian embassy or being exiled like Edward Snowden Are there similarities in their motivations you know I find it really interesting when people raise a question about really which is. Attention seeking or narcissism particularly when they work in television for example or journalism in general because quite frankly we are all narcissists and we're all attention seekers and how we can honestly throw a brick at 2 of the of the great heroes of the 21st century I mean I find it's very difficult the program wasn't quite that obviously driven But look I think that you can learn lessons from from a songe. Actual question you can learn lessons from this are you can learn lessons from Snowden you can learn lessons from doing the sarge by maybe just maybe being a little more cautious a little more cautious but then being cautious doesn't get things done very often and a songe took extraordinary risks to do what he did and I remember talking to him in 2010 when I 1st interviewed him and he was just driven by this idea that the state really didn't have much right to secrecy but everybody had a right to privacy and that's the argument so when people say Assad should be more open the point is it's the state that should be more open and we should have our privacy and then people say well you know privacy if you have nothing to hide why you need to be private and the us that is well we. Clothes or curtains when we go to bed we don't maybe go to the toilet with the toilet door open you know we keep books we keep diaries we using Christian because we want to have some things that just our personal life it's part of our humanity part of our dignity and we Snowden I think what you learn from Snowden is that if you ever have a son and he ends up like Snowden you should be very very happy because he is an honest truthful person who confronted with lies deceit roguery and a planet that he felt was heading in absolutely the wrong direction and was even against the constitutional rights of it as a u.s. Citizen he stood up and say well I'm not going to take this I'm going to confront it and he tried to confront it inside inside the n.s.a. And was rejected and so consequently went public No I think that's an important thing to know that someone has got that courage I'm not sure I would have that kind of courage I'm not sure many journalists I know would have that kind of courage although people journalists are very often critical of people like Snowden and people like a sponge and I think very often that's to do with their I say you know industry a little bit of petty jealousy if you had any knocks at the door at seen anything lurking in the shadows not during this work for work for the new book Shooting the messenger but for the it sounds project and also your work at the a.b.c. The Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Well as far as I know no which means that possibly they're doing their job or possibly I'm not really that important maybe they have better things to do which is what I would hope but the last program I did for 4 Corners did expose that's one of the that's the flagship current affairs program on a.b.c. T.v. Yeah it's the it's the panorama equivalents in this country and it goes 45 minutes which is longer than panorama it's I think up to 30. And we did do a programme which revealed that we were doing a programme about. How foreign hackers can break into straight in companies and take their secrets. Chinese hackers Russian hackers hackers from anywhere in the world and how vulnerable this country was and I as you know were very happy that we would doing this sort of story Asia which is the Australian domestic c m r 5 equivalent in Australia very happy we understood. Until we we revealed that the blueprints to the plans for their spanking new brand new headquarters overlooking were most picturesque views across camera and its ability to fit lake had been stolen and it ended up on a server in China. Now this news did not go down well Lazio. They weren't happy that we disclosed that they too had been penetrated and so they approached the program that I was working for and asked for lots of information and federal police asked lots of information from our program and I think so far as I know it seems to have gone away there not some Been not chasing us at the moment but what was interesting about that program was that firstly I was condemned by the prime minister today Judy get out of saying this is a story of complete fabrication not true not true no one stole the blueprints but then the shadow attorney general George Brandis who's actually about to join you in London he's about to come a high commissioner he stood up in Parliament said I've been briefed by as you know and it is true. Which I thought was going to extraordinary because nobody normally call it on intelligence matters particularly in this country. But he's actually a bit of that and. That's and that's pretty stands today I was very very surprised but what of course I do know is that politicians will do anything to score a political hit even if it means talking about national security when they shouldn't . Under when you talk to journos songs what did what did he say I mean maybe he didn't ask amiss and rode terms you know like a sort of a radio host would but. What are these what was he proudest of what did he think he had achieved did he feel that he had changed the attitude to the n.s.a. That they feel that he had put pressure on some of the Begin to Net companies to alter their practices when it came to collaborating with these these secret requests so this is not Julian it's. His Edward Snowden and Snowden I beg pardon yes. Yes I think he I think he felt look talking to Ed Snowden is like talking to somebody who when you ask that kind of question they the answer is almost like self apparently what they what they've said and what they've done. He felt that the world needed to know that there was an organization that was gathering and particularly United States citizens these no those Northerners ation gathering every single piece of electronic communication in the world with the help of its 5 hours allies including Australia New Zealand Canada. And he felt that that was a kind of world I think these are even the words he used that he didn't want to believe it wasn't the kind of world he wanted he wanted to build a better world and he thought the public had a right to know about that a right to know that they were being watched their information was being stored and they could no longer have a private life and I would think without directly asking this question that Ed Snowden would be proudest of that single fact that he now and he said this before he sleeps really well I. Extraordinarily well in his bed in the in Russia he goes to bed he's he's a man at peace with himself. Which is something that can't be said for many whistleblowers very often they are destroyed by the act of what they do already very often on the edge of a community they are thrown for that are out and then the public don't embrace them because. People see them as being heroes but also slightly questionable characters whereas I see them as being absolute heroes. And if I if I may take the last question what kind of circumstances did you find them in I mean and in Moscow he's. I suppose you know we might think think of Kim Philby which is a completely absurd parallel I know but there's somebody else who could never go home and does he feel that way too uneasy Is he living there in a similar sort of box. You know I didn't go to Moscow I talked to him from from Sydney thanks to the wonders of the the very thing in thing causing such disruption in our business the Internet but he seems very much at home but he wants to go. He wants to go home to the United States. I think that he has to understand that that may never happen. Well under sank you for for stimulating high fire and until Masha thanks very much both of you. I think thanks Rob Thanks Rob.