Independence referendum I think it's making it increasingly clear that Scotland and the rest of the u.k. Are moving in different directions and we've got to make sure that we give leadership to that and we find that safe landing place I regret the fact that it looks as if Boris Johnson is going to win in England because I think something which is going to be so damaging not just to us in Scotland but everyone throughout the United Kingdom so there's a very important job that we have to do when we go down to London and I'll simply say that we were told 2040 not just about staying in the European Union but also that Scotland was to lead the United Kingdom that it was a partnership of equals where does our partnership with equal stand if the conservatives in England want to take us out of Europe. Absolutely and you've got to go off but let me just ask you once again about your own situation there and I know that the declaration time for Ross Colonel covers probably fairly modest probably half past 5 or something like that but do you detect people have talked about the possibility of there having been some sort of electoral pact against you that perhaps a liberal in the Conservatives would have stood back a little bit of a load the Liberal Democrats of done against you do you think that's happened. I have to say the reality is as we campaigned across the constituency over the last few weeks we haven't seen much of out opponents on any level at all the liberals have posted ridiculous number of leaflets through the Royal Mail to the electors here but there hasn't been much of a campaign that I certainly enjoyed the experience with my workers and getting around and speaking to as many people as possible when the extraordinary level of support that without and whether there's been a pact or not there's not really been much at all this sign either of the happening or certainly if it were kicked in by for thanks very much for joining us we may have a word with you later or towards another end of a program with off $600.00 I'm just seen come through from Even Murray he's the longest serving Scottish Labor m.p. The biggest majority in a of any m.p. In Scotland he's saying during his campaign his team spoke to 11 Faison people and they all mentioned Corbin not breaks a book or been there appears to be a bit of a split forming between Labor M.P.'s was to blame for the spot except Paul some seeing it's a bricks issue and some saying it's a korban issue saw already fingers are starting to be pointed I did I'm hearing you know money was never a great fun I never remember a bit more and never a fan of Corbin a talk briefly served in its shadow cabinet but was very angry with him a bit seeming to be a bit open today idea of a 2nd Scottish independence referendum but I'm hearing from him or his team that they are feeling confident about holding on to his seat in Edinburgh so you know I think there's another factor that's at play there and it's just as the Labor Party had a kind of quiet policy or a hidden policy on that in a changing policy some might say an inconsistent one it also hasn't really had a clear and consistent policy on how you approach the constitutional governance in the u.k. It hasn't had a problem where it hasn't had a solution or a policy about what you do with England and we know that that is we know that that is absolutely on the minds of people in England so just as a lay. The party will be suffering from a leader who is his is polarizing so particularly popular among some people and particularly unpopular among others and just as it will be. You know dealing with the consequences of its of its changing and inconsistent regs it policy I think we also have to look to the fact that it has never given consistent cues on how it's going to solve the issue of England because we know that people in England want some sort of solution they're deeply dissatisfied with the fact that other parts have to evolution and they do not that other parts have higher public spending and they do not and every time labor comes up with a solution it suggests carving up England into regions and having some regional parliaments and some not and this is a deeply unpopular views so I think there there are many reasons why why Labor will be suffering in this election and you can see those results when you look at the polling data Labor supporters answer don't know a lot more than supporters of other parties think Campbell still with us and I know you probably have to go but what's your thinking about Jeremy called popularity or otherwise in some places and in others and the whole cast constitutional issue Well there's a lot of academic work going on and a lot of universities and colleges in England on exactly this point but unfortunately never has as yet has been able to agree but at least one organization with which I'm associated has actually published a bill to give devolution in England. Take a long time to explain the detail or do so but remember John Prescott tried in the northeast to introduce a northeast Assembly and he got pretty short shrift the problem in England is while some of the mayors have been very successful some of them haven't really been successful at all was over the police commissions have been successful others haven't so those limited efforts at devolution of power away from the center have. Not been particularly good examples but there's no doubt if I can. Reverse the point there's huge dissatisfaction with Westminster in England as much as the mentee and spin on the part of Jeremy Korb and just so with you're own party field but do you sense that there's. Been a divisive figure well he was a unifying figure of course just a few years ago in the last general election but I think what has got people very concerned as being the influence of momentum which is essentially a party of within the party and also what's got people very concerned is the fact that the proposals are produced under German government I mean that pretty well nationalizing everything you can think of a kind of Christmas tree from which if there's a problem then we'll find the money the Institute of Fiscal I.F.'s said that their calculations of their economic proposal simply didn't start to stand up they said the same about the conservatives as it happened but when you add to that the dissatisfaction with the leadership of the personality of korban it's hardly surprising that what would otherwise be safe seats are in jeopardy. Thanks very much what a little Thank you West here in studio is Douglas Alexander former Labor m.p. We'll just been talking about labor and it's always it's early in the night to play doesn't look as if it's like a good night for labor so far I think that's must a full understatement given the scale of the exit poll that we've just seen Listen I expect that there will be some unexpected results but the direction of travel seems pretty clear on the basis of the of the numbers and if we were to see anything similar to the numbers that John Carter's is predicting and he doesn't tend to get exit polls or all then it would be comfortably the worst defeat the Labor Party since $1035.00 in that sense it would be a defeat it wouldn't so much be a rejection as a repudiation of the approach that the Labor leadership has taken I think it's only reasonable to see if Jeremy Corbyn had triumphed tonight. He would own the victory and if he is defeated on the scale tonight he will most certainly on the defeat we just before you came into the studio we were reading a tree in muddy saying that when he was on the doorstep and he's no you know he no love lost between money and Jimmy carbon he was saying that people were mentioning Jamie carbon on the doorstep and he thought that that was the factor this and I think things are different in Scotland from across the rest of the u.k. And his right to recognise that in relation to BRICs in particular but I just tell your own experience I just cannot tell you the number of doors I was all we have people said Listen I'd like to vote but can't vote for you has a general cordon and in that sense that's not opinion that was popular with those or in Jeremy Corbyn of course it was the truth that did not speak its name for many Labor Party members but it's the reality not just for the money it was that healthy for thousands of and where were these voters going there and if they were worth April remain and where did they find their whole Well I think that will be the line of the Labor leadership to morrow it will say it was all about bricks and nothing to do with the manifesto nothing to do with a leader nothing to do with the approach that the Labor leadership has taken in recent years I'm very sure of the talking points that are being circulated the evening will see make it all about bricks and just say that was the sole cause of the defeat but a defeat on the scale when you're losing seats like life Ali that we haven't ever lost since it was created in 1950 I think demands a deeper consideration and the truth is let's not been a leader party member for 37 years if we. Going to defeat on the scale tonight it will be heartbreaking but the people will be most heartbreaking for our not actually those of us who wrote knocking on doors it's the people in the country who need a change of government from what we're about to get with the conservative party those are the people who rely on the Labor Party being a credible alternative and frankly the electorate don't get it wrong we don't make mistakes they'll It ultimately get what they want and if they have decided to punish the Labor Party on the scale again the idea that one more heave is sufficient is just not good enough. And where will Jeremy I mean he will have to go clearly well who will be his successor I honestly don't know and I think that depends on what conversation the scale of defeat that is at least being suggested this evening precipitates from the Liberal Party if the attitude is well clearly Jeremy wasn't that popular but actually everything else is fine then the world sheep who the party chooses of the next leader if on the other hand it causes a more fundamental reappraisal then we can see change Listen this is the 4th defeat the Liberal Party in a row you know I joined with a party 982 we lost an 83 in 87 and 92 it wasn't all 97 that we came back as a majority party of this country and in that sense I honestly don't know as we sit here this evening whether members who may have joined the Labor Party at the time of Jeremy cauldrons leadership in 2015 no think I actually have a responsibility to think again I spoke to one of my former colleagues who say recently half my membership are Leninists and the other half are joining Leninists and. There was an whole number of genuinely committed idealists who joined the Labor Party and I sincerely hope that they stay with the Labor party and think actually we need to do some things differently Well exactly and do you think that the party has the courage to have that that conversation that the reappraisal you were talking about well if it doesn't the people who will suffer most will not with lower party members it will be the people who are disabled the people who are on low incomes the people who want to get ahead but are held back by the kind of country and economy that we're in June into the so in that sense that is a heavy moral responsibility and we were party to consider very seriously the implications of a defeat on the scale and if the party chooses to indulge it say off rather than really to listen then ultimately our fear of that will p. More places in the future. Douglas Alexander thank you a couple of more results have come in the last few minutes because on to an Easter Swing to the Conservatives a 5.3 percent still a liberal hold someone central Likewise a liberal hold with a swing to the Tories a 5.3 percent yeah I mean I think this I think we also need to keep urging caution another thing I'm urging caution about is this notion of a swing from Labor to the conservatives because sometimes we pretend we're in a 2 party system when we're not and so complex party in these yes but also what we're seeing is Labor vote is down but the conservative vote is not up by the equivalent amount and what we're seeing is that Labor vote is conservative voters up but the Lib Dems vote is up as well and this is very consistent with what we were seeing in the polling as well that labor weren't hanging on to as many of its voters from last time around and they were breaking relatively evenly to the Conservative Party and to the Lib Dems and if we look at Bragg's it as well the other thing we know that seems to be consistent with polling is that the the Braggs the party was drawing relatively evenly from Conservatives and Labor so leave supporting voters' No Deal supporting voters from the conservative in the Labor Party are ending up there at the brig's party but relatively evenly across that Ok Stay with us and keep looking at those constituencies for so let's go around the country again and go to the Renton school pride. By Their Well it's we're starting Steele and facts here now this evening rather than just guesses from the exit polls we've now got it's hard night here for rather close and house in West 66.6 percent that's where they're interested in facts that's the percent up on last time and officials here are saying that they're estimating that 1st votes to come in at a very end of. Half past 1 this morning they're rather close and how little west always prided themselves on trying to be 1st Past the Post in terms of getting their results sensible find out what happens there of course it was one of the success stories for Labor in 2017. Seats in the s.n.p. With a majority of just 265 No I've been down on the floor this evening talking to the various parties and the feedback that we're getting is that the s.n.p. Will feel pretty confident that they're going to take that seat back this evening and we've also been looking at the statistics as so far as a whole 45 percent of people voted yes in the independence referendum more than 60 percent of people voted to remain in the e.u. Referendum so the sort of figures that we get coming out of these constituencies here are broadly comparable with how the nation has voters in the past so hopefully once we start to see the results coming in here we'll get a bit of a picture of what is happening across the country tonight of course these are seats that before 2015 Labor are used to we the same here I was talking to senior figure who was important during the Blair years on the floor and he told me he doesn't want to be named but he told me that as far 8 as he's concerned this is generally corporate failure and this is Richard Leonard spill year and they're going to have to take a closer look at what people want and look at the other seats we're expecting great story of the lesson here go to come in some time after radical and Hamilton West again looking very confident in that seat and they're looking confident in that 3 way marginal which is harmful to the east now it was one of the seats that's been talked about throughout the campaign conservative just 266 books behind the s.n.p. The. Yeah but it's looking very much like the s.n.p. Is saying that we've taken all to be here this evening. That you know Renton Thank you no let's cross to any wells the conservative and Miss p. And where you're only wells. Who came on how are things going there. Yeah I mean it seems to be that the labor force as sort of a go. And we our students tell us what a hold on the conservative vote at the moment here yeah it looks like there might be 2 story is for you tonight you will according to the exit poll have a majority Westminster but might lose a lot of you in Scotland. Those think that we hear on the doors and things on the need to remember as just the next a pool. Of his speech other party this will be the one expect in a sick support for school and either so most of the seats are marginal seats in the majority a school and marginal movement so I think we need to wait and see the results come in and name we look at it from there except the s.n.p. Have had a good election do you. Well I think the projections for the same pm in the States at the start to see the bid to begin seats the polls of say that the polls have never stated anything like that so what I would say is that their expectation is that they would gain some seats However we did we do need to remember it's a poor and we will see that is always comment during the day and we'll take it from there if the 2 gain seats and the criticism of Nicholas Sturgeon has been from your party and others that she keeps banging on about independence Surely if the s.n.p. Gain then people like that message. Well no because the same piece candidates opened some of the up and in the country say they wouldn't use the vote so they call it to fight for independence to be Jews and to stop breaks so I think there's 2 May She's Canadian of the s.n.p. The moment as Wales saw and they saw that in the say the necklace process had stopped didn't see anything about independence and some candidates haven't even mentioned that depends on the leaflet Well what would you regard and. The night to be a success in Scotland how many M.P.'s would you say yeah that's a good result that's we did a good job here. How do we compare a number on the m.p. For a really good campaign one of the clear message all along on that we just need to see how these marches. And I am quite confident at the moment that we have done a great campaign and have put a good weight behind so you don't you would say well if we lose. I know that if a number or. Not said anything to do the moment but do you see the voters in Scotland would be fine would find it difficult to vote for Boris Johnson and that's why you might find a home elsewhere. Not through anyone under a bus at that moment I think we see how that is a school. Just me it is here that I was called I mean that we had a camp in what was the North a signal to penetrate and that's when they were very well up here and the feel years that were seen in public service is gone through like last Arjun's government that has a queen on the doorstep so I think up here has been a very different campaign to it has been a day at any other way only you anywhere else thank you very much indeed conserving s.p. We're going to be trying to stop some of this and come into the studio here hello hello occurs to me that you were the mastermind of the 2015 s n p landslide to so and feel similar this year. I think what I'm hearing from people is that what has happened in the selection is that the s.n.p. Vote to didn't turn out and 2017 has turned out in this election why did it not on its 70. Absolutely honest I've I've because I've had to wrestle with I was an m.p. For. Quite a length of time and then wasn't reelected although it was my 2nd managed in. My 2nd best ever election result but it wasn't enough because. People more people turned out for the toward a candidate than voted for me the story that in 2015 your support. Was I was most of it was a lot of it and angry in 2017 it wasn't a No it is again I think people and this is where the previous contributor was was absolutely wrong because I mean we've all been out on the stump and and we know that the s.n.p. Has been running on 3 things. One of which is to exit 2 is to lock Boris Johnson out of Number 10 and the 3rd thing throughout this election campaign is that the people Scotland should be able to choose the future of Scotland the timing the people in Scotland a term and the choice to be made but it looks as if the night will only yield the thought of those 3 young. Voters Johnson a number turn. While there are certain things that are in our power and there are certain things that aren't on the. As you know from our perspective obviously one of the great shortcomings of the u.k. Is that you can when. We can we can't say it enough it's an exit poll but you can win almost every seat in the country and you can still be overheard by a counter political development elsewhere and so I think the big picture that we can probably agree on at this early stage without. Acknowledging that the exit poll might to mirror the result exactly is that there is a divergence in politics between Scotland and the rest of the u.k. In England there seems to have been. An adoption of Boris's mantra about get done it has not been in Scotland and I think a lot of people were also wanted to say Boris Johnson mean this is a person who's not fit to run a bath let alone a country and we here and many voters it would appear are agreeing that this is not the kind of person that we want as our Head of Government and you're right to point out that the exit polls indicating because of the support for his party down south that he might have a strong majority Well you know but but back to us people of Scotland are we going to accept that this is as good as it gets or do we actually want to be in charge of our own destiny if we want to remain in Europe why don't we remain in Europe if we want to be run as a country based on the that we actually elect Well we have to be a sovereign country to get to that these are going to can have later as well but we can stay with us at least for a little while and let's cross now to reach a bell in elegant. What's happening with you Rachel Yes good evening. Yes well it's all very tense here has to be said to see flames so Mari a seat that was won by conservatives at the last election and one which the s.n.p. Are very very keen to win back this evening for a number of reasons but this was an s.n.p. Seat for 30 years before the Tories won it in 2017 and it was a major loss for the s.n.p. So Douglas. Defeated Angus Robertson the deputy leader of the s.n.p. This was a high sitting listening to those not only in the studio yeah. Thanks so much sorry but I'm. Sorry to remind you had. Been a year it was a significant loss for them and so with that in mind this was going to be a 2 horse race and tonight we're starting to see that you know that race is really very close indeed. The s.n.p. Have had told me that despite the exit polls saying that this will fall to the s.n.p. They say it's far too early there are I'm looking at them they were crossed the room and they're not looking they're out came to in their chickens yet they're not looking overly confident yet equally the conservatives are not looking overly confident either there's a lot of tension it kind of sums up what's happening here yes n.p.c. That's far too early to see what's going to happen but they are predicting that this will be a very very close result this evening and the conservatives to use the phrase that's been used quite a lot this evening they say that Mari is on a knife age they say that they are hopeful that they'll be able to hold the seat but they say that it could contain to as much as just a few 100 votes this evening so counting has finished here at the tail contained hole here in Marty everyone's just having a cup Dean a bit of a break because they're kind of. Expecting that the turn it within the next 10 minutes so definitely want to watch this evening Ok Thanks very much for that we'll go and just Robertson's views on or not analysis of money in just a moment. Who's in Bishopbriggs What's the latest. Thanks Bill Yes Well here it's looking incredibly tight between the Liberal Democrats and the s.n.p. Andrew Polson is they came to the leader he's a conservative and he said it's extremely tight between the 2 parties and they've been counting up the voices they've been getting verified in and he's saying that actually 2 years ago and 27000 Joe Swenson was significantly ahead in several of these different parts of the of the constituency that the votes are being counted and so it's looking extremely tight the s.n.p. . Cautiously optimistic I would say they're rare there are a few smiles on their feces Lib Dems a little more worried it's not going to be the majority for hard that she go in 2017 but certainly it's looking incredibly tight we're expecting that we'll know the turn 8 within the next hour all the ballot boxes are and several of the counters have said they'll never get assemble election again because the hole is freezing paralysed our skin from Bishopbriggs thank you very much indeed. And when you heard the news from money there were you yearning to be back in the free. This is the 1st election campaign for Westminster that I'm been a candidate nearly 1000 years I think so it's definitely an odd experience. I wasn't sure. Things were likely to pan out will be absolutely frank in terms of what seats were likely to change on my way to. Proceed key here for the for the for the b.b.c. Coverage I'm absolutely delighted that what appears to be happening is that. People are putting their trust in the s.n.p. Whether we win. All seats that have been talked about. Or not it would appear pretty certain that the s. And p. Has made a major advance in school in Scotland but I think it's important to start from from pretty basic principles here the s.n.p. Currently already represents a majority of seats although 2017 was disappointing we still won the election in Scotland and no what we're talking about is the s.n.p. Probably likely to make more gains and win the election again so obviously I'm delighted that that's the case so you say when the election the most seats in in Scotland then it was a point that Bill puts in Blackford saying that it doesn't really matter how many seats you've got if Boris Johnson has such a big majority Your voice will not be carried you'll be drowned out when you well I many of your listeners will probably have heard. Contributors from other parties describe the u.k. As being a family of nations respectful of the different views of the different parts of the u.k. That. Scotland's voice matters well if we're if if politics is diverging in the way it would appear to be honest I think what's happening don't say it is hugely depressing if we're going to have Boris Johnson as prime minister the big majority and driving us off the brakes a cliff because we will be taken with that notwithstanding the fact that we will try our very best to try and ameliorate the challenge of having a Tory government in London but the essence of your question is correct that until Scotland is a sovereign country. Whoever England the lengths and overvote Scotland we are just what we have a choice as to whether we meekly accept that or whether we decide that we don't and I think what is clearly going to emerge from the results as we imagine them to be is that the calls for a 2nd independence referendum not losing sight of the fact this would be the 4th concurrent s.n.p. Victory with the manifesto commit. Meant to holding such a referendum that the how many times can politicians in Westminster see no you can't decide over your own future times now whether we agree with independents or don't agree with independents so it's just a basic democratic point do we live in a country we were able to decide to run future yes or no Peter Gagan How do you think that is Johnson would deal with that we don't know how many seats the s.n.p. Will how do you think one instance will deal with this I think you could be very happy with this on one level you know I think we can we can kind of get very insular and think about Scott and obviously we're sitting in the studio and are going to find what happens but if we pull it back out look at the wider lens here what you're seeing is it's quite a radical change Conservative Party the old one nation sort of party is pretty dead now we've got rid of a lot of that water that's gone so it's a very pliant prole Barra's prole. National Enquirer English National Conservative Party it's got elected in England it's got very few so it will have very few Scottish Tory M.P.'s to deal with we don't know how many there are we know what'll be in single figures and probably you know not enough to you know not enough to fill the back of a taxi so that's what is the Scottish anger is going to be less important to him it's not that difficult to see a figure like Boris Johnson making quite a lot of political capital standing up against the s.n.p. To it's not too hard to imagine cynical Sturgeon's as I wanted a referendum bars Johnson us recently that made before says no you can't have one but on like Theresa May not that difficulty bars Johnson mobilizing around that this is an issue we already know from like the work today as was done in order to there is tension within the family of nations around evolution around the reality of a Scottish Parliament there is money to be made politically capital to be made politically from being seen to be against the Scots or did very well in 2015 for Cameron in key constituencies but it's not hard to see someone like Boris Johnson who has a very populist touch really manifesting that and we've not seen before how that plays out I think could be very uncertain but it's you know for him there's no political mileage in him acquiescing to an independence referendum so you know we we could be in very very uncharted territory but what happens then you know what would what what angers or what would you think would happen what would Nicholas surgeon do if and when Verizon says no we're just going to go just yet sorry a declaration in Swindon. Justin pull all the Conservative Party candidates 32000 was a vote. So that's a conservative. And Swindon starting in turnout was $67.15 and I do hear the writing. That just in full Tomlinson is Julie elected with the law school to another place where they're counting today Glasgow and speak to an assault or m.s.p. Hello good evening doesn't look a great name for labor but there's no point sugarcoating it looking at the polls looking at the results coming in so far it's it's a rather devastating day for the Labor Party across the u.k. And it looks like a devastating for the party in Scotland. As a senior point sugar corner that's very upsetting not just for us as a political party but for lots of communities right across the country that I think need a credible Labor Party fighting for them in our credible Labor Party in government who can have to take the responsibility for their stand enemy Corben or to learn and. That's a discussion for another day and probably more for them than for me I think what was your view today is that my my view at the moment as I'm distraught for our candidates who are nor what really really hard and this election I'm devastated for are activists and I'm angry for them as well because I think they have been severely let down I think the lesson we've learned from previous elections is on the big issues of the day if you want to sit in the fence if you want to stand in the middle of the road you get run over because. We've not learned that lesson from previous elections and in this election on the 2 biggest issues on on independence on the biggest issue of bricks we've decided to stand in the middle of the road and we've been run over and I think that's been our late don't for our people right across the country and at least one of your party in Mali has is on record as saying generally carbon was the problem he was mentioned on the doorsteps all the time people saying they'd like to vote Labor I think it but they're not going to. Look at I think it's hardly a secret Jeremy wasn't popular on the doorstep I know people who are ardent carbon Easters who read and met and privately generally wasn't popular on the doorstep but I think this was bigger and beyond that I think it's more than just the personalities although clearly personalities are an issue in this election as well but on the bigger issues of the big divides in our country I don't think you get to set in the faint and be neutral on these issues when the country is crying out for leadership we should be showing leadership and I think if we had shown credible leadership we should have been in this abomination of a prime minister and Boris Johnson and Douglas Alexander in the studio or on was saying that he felt it's time for former colleagues to step up and get rid of the korban Easters. Because I say that's a discussion for another day and a discussion or do you agree with what you know. My view is people know my view my view is that I don't think that the way we have run this election campaign in terms of those 2 big issues was a credible campaign I have said before I think Jeremy has been a problem on the doorstep and dollar and Jeremy Corbyn are true to their word and I think we'll see movement on that in the coming days but my biggest devastation and all that's my biggest disappointment all this is not to do with personalities is not to do with Jeremy Corbett other figures it's to do with the fact that I time when our country was crying out for credible leadership our time when our country feel so better and divided regardless of your politics regardless of which political party associate with We Can All Saint's the better divisions in our politics and the real negative nature in our communities where it was a country at that time when this country required to be brought back together again when it required leadership credible view to shape Sadly we feel today on a solid thanks very much Elsa. We're looking at Swindon you know I know I was just going to comment on the point about whether being on the fence helps or not. You know if you look at the polling data what you can see from for me years ago is that Labor voters were more likely to say I don't know when we they were asked all kinds of questions about what to do about governance in the u.k. They were then after a few years later also more likely to say don't know when asked questions about Europe a few years later they were then more likely to say don't know when they were asked fundamentally central questions about state intervention in the economy so if you're a Labor voter and you're answering you don't really know whether you think the state should be involved in even ing out the differences between rich and poor then there's a fundamental problem there in terms of missing part to Q But there's polling out just a couple weeks ago that was asking whether people had are had arguments as a result of different constitutional issues and labor. We're also more likely to say they didn't know whether they'd had an argument so there's something there there's there's deep on certainty here and you can you can see it in the in the complete absence of party cues about what voters are supposed to think about really major issues so fundamental core issues about how involved the state should be in the economy but also how we organize our state in terms of its constitutional architecture what relationship we have with other countries outside our borders as well as you know kind of more pedestrian and mundane issues this is a problem you could have seen coming I mean and so we might want to say it was a problem in this campaign but this is a this is not a new problem but arguably Scotland is well head and all the sun and all our goods has been listening carefully to all of this very patiently. With the head of the curve in Scotland in terms of having aligned our politics much more with the with constitutional issues much earlier than than they have so the border Yeah I think so I mean of said this before that feels like England's have an identity crisis but is haven't a political crisis at the same time whereas prior to this question the pain Triffitt and I'm you know we knew all of these issues we were asking these questions over sales and over each other. And you know and it was done in a much calmer way because if you think back to it was it was meetings intone holds up and down the country for 2 years where people went thought about things like philosophical question some things about who we are and what kind of country we think we are what can a country would be like to be what would the pole with 6 of that look like what would our culture look like all of these were major things Anglin has tried to do far too quickly I think David Cameron thought that he could say all the BRICs a question he could say all the question within his party by doing it very quickly like reckon off a Band-Aid this very quick come pain and it's been turned out to be pretty disastrous We have been seen as being pretty disastrous for the 20 party the when it seemed as though. For the last little while we're know in the sort of unexpected position thing where the Tories haven't had a clear majority may start to shift people's perspectives on. You know the lay of the land of polar ticks and England I mean there are some huge huge questions for them going forward again this identity crisis is much much deeper than just the question of bricks so the thing and when so has to grapple with the. And Scotland though I think were you were in a possession way are 2 statements have been made if they say exit poll is correct as far as I'm concerned one is that despite what anyone else says there later on about you know their same Pino all have an independence on their leaflets and nor all the candidates were talking about end of it you can't possibly claim that you don't know what the same piece stands for I mean it's the same piece this question national party we know that a pro Independence Party we know they want to say can and the bandage over and you can't possibly clean that you don't know that you're voting for that if you get a vote today same piece however even if you did take that off the table what you're also seeing is that would be a statement to see we reject the Tories and if Scotland rejects the Tories which have just been voted on with a pretty significant majority and England then again we just say that's the very essence of becoming is so clear on a number of levels it's not just the independents it's about governance and one of the things that they simply and through and the supporters of Quite often said is the. School Linda when you know it does mark what we vote for we may not gate so I think this is a game they are able to get to use that another unchosen thing is is it just as a point a sports is to pro and the supporters I'm about election where they fail a voter and it was generally agreed among 20 people the borders Johnson majority in government was better for independence now that by seeing that it wasn't actually a price that they fairly wanted to be they felt that they would rather have had a korban government propped up by the same p. Which would probably have led to a 2nd referendum but the question of whether this him whether the movement would then have won that race fit into him was a wee bit more he's However effets suborders Jones in government then I think that there is political gains to be made there when the independence movement weeks up to more and realize realizes if they really mobilize they can make some great. Things for the most was cross over for Newcastle declaration. Green Party 1005 that. Sharon Hart should live a party 50000 my was essentially Washington and some the worst. Was. Jenkins you. 139 I. Call to Lee West liberal Democrat 2071. I'm not sure when Hodgins has been Judy elected to serve as member functions it's always an easy was a little hold in Washington and Sunderland worst the large don't support the summers I'm not quite sure how that comes about I will get the details to you on the short of the b.c.s. Just walk into the new Georgia majority of the last vote was some 12100 it just just where we were gettin a few reports through from a or calling so pair sure that's a Conservative majority of about 3 and a half those end s. Impeach challenging their the it looks quite tight and want to see if that comes through is probably quite an interesting indication of vs n.p.r. Doing because if they do take that source they need to take if this exit poll is going to prove anything like reality winning winning those seats for from the conservatives we are also hearing that it's looking good for the same Pete Stirling where of course it was out 148 a seat majority for the conservatives David thank you let's cross now to Donald Clement in Stornoway Hello. And hey there and what's happening where you are. So the most the most interesting pieces to the from the current those of the returning officer it had some we can terms of logistics planning for this election the the you have even had to plan each in terms of contingencies one of the contingencies involved because of the severe weather we've had in north easterly gales swell was to have the ballot boxes counted on by itself instead of being taken up to Stornoway and that they would be if they came to be watched the link here in Stornoway and that the party should actually get into that but the weather has cleared up Fortunately things are on track in terms of it's the still developing story Senay this M.P.'s Angus MacNeil who's been an m.p. Here since just 15 is looking very comfortable the story here is that a the toadies have been traditionally very weak in the Western Isles and have been a distant 3rd for a number years look to be challenging the Labor Party for 2nd place they have been very strong showing in some of the some boxes that we've just been reported and that that would be the story of the night if the Tories managed to pick Libor to 2nd place formally but a seat this teachers no 5 Donald lemon to install and we thank you very much can't just go back Peter Gagan us and Angus trumpets and the question will you know those are like 10 minutes ago and it was seems like it was yesterday whether Boris Johnson political capital I think it was out yeah because I think it's not hard to imagine the future scenario where Scotland we kind of how to dress rehearsal isn't 2017 you know this goes parliament passed a bill calling for 2nd referendum 3 knoll and the political situation was different and then we did General Election in the s.n.p. Took a took a took a loss in terms of seats as if the top the pole you know we're in a different world now the 3 samee didn't crowd a very strong united the s.n.p. Now across election report the Tories Nason p.r. Very very strong there's going to be not much of a Tory contingent in Scotland you know the demands. Certainly for a 2nd independence referendum referendum will grow all but it's not I maybe I'm just living on planet Mars but looking at Boris Johnson looking at his mannerisms looking at the way he governs looking at the way he does seem to like to divide and conquer it's I don't find it too hard to imagine Boris Johnson saying no I'm actually looking to even stalk a confrontation over this because he'll have seen in the places look at Spain look what happens in Spain like the right wing partisans painted on very very well over Catalonia you know there's not many votes to be lost. In a large swathes of England by being seen as strong against a Scottish National Party I guess Robertson Well I try not to spend too much time in imagining what goes through the head of Boris Johnson or Donald Trump or the you know these these type of populist politicians and so we can see that when you think there's very little that you can rule out but if the rhetoric that we've been hearing of of recent weeks of the One Nation Conservative of the One Nation Conservative leader that he wants to present himself as of the fabulous force on that he described the 4 nations of the u.k. Mean he has actually begun to adopt a language that would counter the direction of travel that you are suggesting will rule it out no I can't this is of course the man who in his editorship of The New Statesman was quite happy to Specter and spectator sorry forgive me forgive me was happy to print poems describing the Scots as a very menace race. So he's been nasty to the Scots he's been horrific to people who are gay the imperfect people of color has been horrific to people are Muslim I mean. You know like I said I don't like to spend too much time imagining what goes through his head having said all of that. If we had our witnessing this divergence in politics where the Tories and their breaks it's agenda is winning and they are going to proceed with that but at the same time there is this push back which we're hearing before the different reasons why people were voting s.n.p. In this in this election. His advisors will be saying Prime Minister. You have done well in England on this agenda done badly in Scotland and this divergence is not sustainable from a unionist perspective. Is it possible that somebody wants to play politics with that and the Spanish situation was alluded to well that's what they've done there. That hasn't made the situation there any better. No. Of course the Johnson administration is going to massively focused on trying to deliver brakes and. Doing what his predecessor was not able to do do they have the bandwidth to reimagine a u.k. Off thinking a new about devolution or asymmetric more asymmetric powers or a federal state all this stuff that kind of gets debated in Scotland and has for decades. I don't know is the honest answer but what we do know is it's not going away and I think the lesson from the exit poll and it's still not a result and I would again counsel caution very much so yes in p. Already represents the majority of seats in Scotland so any gains on top of representing a majority of seats is strong progress is that people have clearly said we want a strong Scottish voice standing up to this this this politics of Boris Johnson and bricks and. And it's not going away and you know what kind of responsible politician would not at least think long and hard about what their actions will mean. Now you might then say to me especially given your background and these are people who have blithely blundered into continuing to misunderstand the history of Ireland the particular situation of Northern Ireland when it comes to breaks it and have been perfectly happy. Through their ignorance to see and do the most ridiculous things and put the peace of Northern Ireland in doubt. Which you may then say to me well that's a good example for the they don't care and they don't know much and they are perfectly happy to put these places far away from metropolitan London. At the bottom of their list and it's entirely possible that might continue late but at some point the rock meets a hard place it will do someone breaks it with Northern Ireland and it will do so in the politics of Scotland because we will have more elections and we will have a Scottish Parliament election now we already know that Ruth Davidson has announced that she isn't standing in that election I suspect in large part because she knows she wouldn't win let's bring in someone who's actually in the Scottish Parliament model Fraser from the conservatives you would have heard all of that but the suggestion was that Boris Johnson if as looks likely he has returned as prime minister in Westminster with a thumping majority didn't pay any attention to Scotland and indeed could take quite an oppositional view to Scotland particularly if he doesn't have to bother a bit tiresome Scottish Tory M.P.'s I don't think I'll be the case at all actually I think the Prime Minister if the results as the exit poll would suggest they would and of course there's a long way to go we haven't even had the 1st Scottish result yet you know the prime minister be very clear he is a unionist and he wants to see you know he can get stronger than it currently is no you know I think there's a number of things that the government will need to reflect upon if there's all turns out as it is I think there are a number of issues that need to be addressed in relation to BRICs and its impact on the u.k. Constitution I think that it's very been very obvious for a while and all parties have accepted this that the intergovernmental machinery within the u.k. Doesn't work in its current iteration and that needs to be addressed and there are issues around Northern Ireland and need to be addressed so the idea that you know. You can call me just going to say well that's it you know brags about will progress nothing needs to change after this result I think is a mistake and well what does need to change from a conservative point of view you had a fairly good night in 27000 it looks much less so tonight but let's listen 1st of all the results are exactly what the vote share it was because of course. If you have a cultural divide in Scottish politics it's roughly 5050 or 5545 part of the challenge there is you have one party and one side of that divide hoovering up the 45 percent of the vote and the 55 percent of the vote split between 3 parties visioning 1st Past the Post voting system will always flatter the party on the one side of that divide so as well as looking at the actual result in terms of seats under a 1st possible system we also look at the the actual vote shares the different parties are cast and see see what that tells us about the mood of this group you know asking Labor politicians about the popularity or otherwise of generally carbon What is Johnson good and well on the doorsteps I think that's absolutely fair I met in this campaign you know a large number of people who said they were traditionally conservative voters who were not going to vote conservative in this election goes they didn't like Boris Johnson and I think he has a lot of work to do as prime minister to prove himself to people in Scotland as well as in you know other parts of the u.k. . That he will be a prime minister for the whole United Kingdom and he will govern as a One Nation Conservative and if you look at his record as mayor of London at a national fight he's able to demonstrate actually his record in office is very different from the way he's sometimes been painted by the media or by political polls are you suggesting that sometimes described as a One Nation conservatism that he wants to be a very different kind of conservative leader that will somehow win the Scots right and you'll be spending on infrastructure or you'll be splashing the cash in other ways but if you look at the because of the manifesto for this election that's precisely what it seems so not only are various of time. The increase in supply and finding in the devolved areas which will lead to Barnet consequential for Scotland of over $3000000000.00 pounds but also measures around things like employment so raising the level of the national living wage to 2 thirds of median income which you have helped tackle in work poverty at that with amongst the highest minimum wage in the United Kingdom and lifting the benefit freeze raising the threshold for payment of National Insurance help people or lower incomes are these are not the policies of a hard right conservative government these are the policies of a One Nation Conservative government and I think a lot of that didn't really get through in this election campaign because we were talking about other things mostly around issues around Prexy But the but the Scottish conservatives were saying we are the people to vote for if you don't like Nicolas started buying on about independence vote for us plus with us a strategy which you said what very well for you to do something what well let's see we have a result yet of what this is not just about seats is about vote should except you're probably going to lose at least one or 2 but I think I think if the exit polls are anywhere near right we'll do some cities but there's not just what number of seats is also by vote share and where our vote share is compared to previous elections but a phase of thanks very much for the moment you know so we've had a few results in that we have managed to bring you live I think New Castle another New Castle one halts a normal human and I think telling us anything yet whether they're telling us that Labor's down kids I mean there's a consistent swing here 5 point swing in home from Labor to the conservatives but if you actually look at the individual performance of the parties labor are down 9 the conservatives despite that 5 point swing conservative numbers are fairly static actually they're only up by less than one percentage point the beneficiaries and Holton in particular appear to be the banks the party where there's an almost like for like movement from away from Labor towards the. Bragg's a party and I think this just reminds us that we have to recall that just as 30 percent of conservative voters backed remain so 2 to 30 percent so according to the British election study so too did 30 percent of the Labor voters vote leave and so we need to be mindful that you know not all the people who vote for a particular party have similar constitution of use both the in Scotland but also in the wider u.k. . Let's speak now to Keith Brown deputy leader of the s.n.p. Thank you for joining us very good morning to us it is morning no one has the night been and there in the morning for you so far. That well my consistency covers to Westminster constituency so I've been both and I will try to hold to see the early part of the current flow from say for sure and no one stumbling on there seems to be a relatively similar message in both which is a very strong make for the s.n.p. And why do you think that is the case. I think one thing that especially in this part of the story consistency I cover them when in breach of all and and this being quite clear to me that the Tory message which is simply no to India they have to really run its course is a very limited offer to the public and of course structure and Carlo had said previously that the union was on the ballot paper Well it was on the ballot paper into Tory held seats that it seems to be that people don't like what they're getting from the Conservative Party and far from saying Norton good enough to see I'm just saying yes to indeed if to it's at the big message from the Tories Where was that get Bracks it done and that is what people appear to have voted for and not what will happen. What in this case simply wasn't a message from the conservatives every single piece of literature every poster in a field by the same message here which is north ended after your stop and did have to. Everything has been saying to you not just at the selection but in previously actions was with independence referendum and every piece of literature we had numerous mentions of the leader of my party Nicholas Thompson of their party voter storms and so their message wasn't it great that they barely mentioned Briggs and their leaflets Yes it was all but ended after you and they've been saying it is only message for me. But the show is going to be that there will be a conservative majority in Westminster and whatever the s.n.p. And it's something that we've been discussing in the studio that the s.n.p. And the other smaller parties will get completely drained and it's. What we do we have determined that there simply is voice on the voice of the people of Scotland will not move that one of the positions that we stood on was the Scottish voice must be heard there seems to be being heard very loudly tonight and it will continue to be here it cannot be the case that the perhaps if it happens to me in the according to the exit polls that the s.n.p. Win this election by getting more than 50 seats that would be the 4th fame the money is being given to the s.n.p. It was agreed on the same piece a we've said this was about independence is called in straight to choose the Tories or say it's all of Independence or could be no day. And it's a very clear answer this Scotland wants a right to choose its future and the Tories can't stand in the way of of course. Has already said he will stand in the way so. Then. We'll see what happens after we see what they come of the election itself as tonight then we have to see what the action is taken the 1st one the sort of say that she'll be seeking the agreement for the Section 30 not asking for permission but seeking agreement for the section they have to order and let's see what happens but really the question would have to go to the conservatives why would you deny the democratic rights of the people of Scotland as expressed once again at the ballot box the have it save one of you got as a justification for doing that so really the question is one for the conservatives and any answer they get flies in the face. Of internationally accepted standards of self-determination which they see this subscribe to so good the question is for them we're fairly clear on what our position is that people Scott will make clear to me or rather this morning what their position is and then it's for the Conservatives to see how they are going to listen to the people of Scotland Keith Brown thank you for joining us Deputy Leader of the s. And p. Will model for these are what is the answer to the. I'm sorry I couldn't hear what I'm saying what I mean we also know well if you see was saying why would why would the conservatives of what's the answer the conservatives when one Scotland says they want to reach an agreement to have a 2nd independence referendum is the justification for denying them again well 1st of all let's see what the result is and let's see both in terms of seats in terms of vote share exactly how much support there's been for the s.n.p. But also let's remember that you know s. And p. Candidates were telling people during this election campaign their vote for the same people is not a vote for independence or a vote for a mandate for a 2nd independence referendum a number of candidates made that very clear on their literature no you know we have all in 2014 we were told at the time it was a once in a generation vote I don't believe the people's will and want to go back to another independence referendum at this particular point I says no or or no is not the time which was teasing me formulation of it you would back him yes absolutely and it was very clear in the Conservative manifesto that the conservatives will not agree to another independence referendum for the duration the next parliament there's a conservative majority and you know it would be a betrayal the people who voted for us and we were to go back on that particular promise and well if you didn't hear Cuban He was also talking about the prospects for the s.n.p. Candidates in 2 of the constituencies in the Sterling it is to see Sterling and also on south pasture and think it s. And p. Have got them why would the s.n.p. Be making ground in that particular area well as far as we can tell what's been happening across Scotland and I don't have any particular intel from those seats but what's happening across Scotland has is that there has been a collapse in the labor vote and some of that labor what might have come to the conservatives a lot of it seems have gone to the s.n.p. And I suspect that's because those particular voters were judging this election as being like Sharon Brecht's that I'm possibly election I don't Boris Johnson rather than an election on this college constitutional question. Well Derek McI luckly is here to answer some of those questions at Marja Fraser Pruett there I mean what do you make of what he was saying then it's perfectly reasonable for Boris Johnson to deny another 2nd independence referendum the once in a generation argument again reasonable if you know that data that doesn't respect democracy if this exit poll is accurate then it suggests the s.n.p. Has won the election we had thought 5 seats at the last general election I thought the progress would have been more than 35 sees it looks as if you know I know it's still early days but it looks as if we had a phenomenal result and in terms of us once in a generation point of view a prime minister than of the majority wanted a high minority and then code of a general election so to see that were frozen in time in 2014 would be wrong the people have spoken now we'll see how the results pan out but it's not for any politician to say that Scotland can't have it see if this was a referendum on a referendum where the s.n.p. Was saying that we wanted to put Scotland's future into Scotland's handle the politician but the people's hands and the conservatives were saying no to and did if Today it appears the conservatives have lost the election in Scotland and the s.n.p. May well have won and we have diverged from the rest of United Kingdom they have voted Tory and Scotland has not so if we live in a democratic country and we have a democratic media then the question should be put to those in power in the u.k. Why should Scotland not have a say that appears to be how it's been voted larger Fraser It's not up to the politicians to deny the will of the people well let's see how many votes there simply get in this election and how many votes the union has parties get in this election because there's always been a challenge in the current configuration of Scottish politics because you have 45 percent roughly who support independents they will coalesce around the one major party on that side of the debate the s.n.p. a 55 percent on the unicycle split 3 ways and in the 1st past the post voting system. That will flatter the s.n.p. In terms of the number of seats they will when so let's let's make these assessments when we see where the vote shares are as opposed to you know projections around the number of seats I have barely there isn't it quite interesting Bill then when it comes to farming a u.k. Government 1st Past the Post that's fighting and who bans a number of constituencies can farm the u.k. Government apart from viewers or listeners and didn't Scotland ever the number of constituencies don't. Count because it doesn't suit my Bose argument if we live in a democratic country that support for another referendum has to be respected and so too should Scotland possession and brakes as well we've chosen to stay in the European Union and we've been dragged against their will by a plain minus that it would appear that the rest of the u.k. Maybe I'll have elected but Scotland did not but in 2015 the s.n.p. Had a very good result in the general election they got 50 percent of the vote they got 56 seats and 59 there you know we'll find out later whether they've matched that down saying that even matched that result that wasn't a mandate in my view for another independence referendum why would be no so we only saw an orderly in Scotland could achieve achieving 95 percent of constituencies not be seen as a mandate for and unless they haven't even let you get you know well I think only was in the Tories model go like the polls that were bought I mean you know one of the unionist parties we'll see we'll see you know nothing again the 1st and the 1st result we're expecting in Scotland is likely to be in rather go and Hamilton West we're told that is imminent in the next few minutes and that will be an interesting bellwether for the senseless of 3 we marginal but as held by has been held by labor before that obviously by the s. And p. But it's way for thin or not we for them by a majority of $265.00 so it doesn't require much of a swing to go to the p. David one it's not going to have been weaving and looking at what's been going on for some. Of intelligence you're hearing and seeing well there's an interesting recount going on at the moment we believe in one's back which is the cheer and that the seat of Labor party cheer in way every so Northumberland in the northeast of the country at 10000 majority he went into this election with currently a recount so it really fits the pattern of what we're seeing northeast Brix it backing largely working class seat big swing to the conservatives it will be interesting to see controversial figure though in living not not least because of his links with the new Very but it ball is a very was it was somebody with a very strong quite a strong broad.