The s.n.p. And Liberal Democrats have joined forces in an attempt to trick at an l.a. Pool but only of blanks it is delayed for 3 months Labor leader Jeremy Corbyn is expected to pledge to take on the wealthy and powerful if next in government. Conference and here later he plans to invest 70000000000 pounds in Scottish public services and infrastructure and universal credit and give over 700000 workers appear eyes Scottish Conservative Chief Whip Morris Golden says Mr carbon can make all the Marxist pledges he wants but says Labor is avoiding fighting a general election. It's not as many as 25 of the 39 people find date in a lorry and Essex on what state or from the same town in Vietnam a church service has been held there to remember them Michael ski runs a charity in Vietnam and has rescued more than 100 people from human trafficking he explains why gangs target people from poorer areas this model is who have set up these routes to Europe also. Lend them the money to pay for and so in this way people are being tricked. They think that they've got a lifeline all they have to do is borrow this money and they'll be able to pay it back but of course it just becomes a debt that leads to them being enslaved the driver of the lorry will appear in court in Essex tomorrow morning the 25 year old from Northern Ireland faces month slaughter and people trafficking charges the Scottish f.a. Is to consider a ban on children under 12 heading the ball following a reports linking dimentia to food bowl the governing body will look at a range of options after the study carried out by experts at Glasgow University revealed a former players for 3 and a half times more likely to die of degenerative brain disease a ban on children heading the ball in the United States has been in place since 2814 and that's a news night John Barnes is here with the sport Thank you Amanda the Scottish Boxer Josh Taylor is the new unified super lightweight champion and has lifted the supersedeas trophy champion added the year belt after beating American Regis pro-grade by a majority decision in London on the same card Ricky Burns lost 3 was Lee Selby after going the distance they had been a manager Paul Hagen bottom says he's feeling the pressure and that he and his players must do better after saying let slip to no lead to all at home to Ross County to leave them 2nd bottom of the Premiership table moved into 3rd after beating some man one no at Rugby Park. Dear There are 2 matches with the top tune action for stop leader Celtic and Aberdeen at lunchtime before 2nd place Rangers play host to mother will 3 o'clock Sports and has full coverage from 1130 we are looking to set up the 1st British rugby World Cup final by beating South Africa in this morning 2nd semifinal in New York a Hama the match is just about 2 minutes Ault just kicked off in your camera angle and of course the winners no back to Amanda for the weather well it's a chilly start gales in the north during the morning and then the strongest winds will ease but it will remain blustery at I know the eastern coast and over the Northern Isles northern Scotland will see a mix of sunny spells and servers heavy at times with the risk of heel and funder central and southern Scotland will be mainly dry with plenty of sunshine a top temperature today of 11 degrees Celsius and that's b.b.c. Radio Scotland news and the time is 6 minutes past 9 and let's take a look at the Sunday papers we'll look at the detail in the inside pages in a minute but 1st let's scan through the front pages of the papers 1st of all the Sunday Times don't put petrol on fire boss says Archbishop these are quotes from the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby who's on a visit to the Democratic Republic of Congo he says that Johnson should not try to emulate his hero Winston Churchill systems are very different though the Mail on Sunday says a people smuggler has left off the fate of the 39 migrants find dead in a shipping container saying it's the luck of the draw not the headline there Sunday national s.n.p. And Lib Dems are e.u. Blocking no deal then we'll get an election this is a joint letter to Donald Tusk from the Lib Dems and the s. And p. The Observer reports that the u.k. Faces being excluded from the huge ups Europe's ante tracking traffic as it trafficking. You know rather after Brecht sit down M.P.'s and experts are warning that this. Piece is x. From elite you policing unit the Sunday Express as you might expect is all behind the prime minister in his bid to get bricks it done it's a stop holding Britain hostage swarms M.P.'s are causing real damage the Sunday Post has a news special and it says that a wealthy Catholic order is being urged to settle damages claims brought by victims of abuse at 5 of its children's homes in Scotland before they die in Scotland on Sunday leads with peace by Danny got a fairly The Night me of Nightmare Before Christmas is the headline does a winter election spell disaster for deliverance is the question the Sunday Telegraph had a headline back in a row over bullying stitched up and the paper reports that accusers claim complaints process will allow the Speaker John Bercow to escape investigation as he leaves the Commons chair and something medical sort of way with an exclusive interview I blame 2 and a half 1000000 pound law to con man from my lover's death it's a fairly complicated story but a dual national lottery Corman the potman being blamed for driving his partner in crime to suicide at the Herald claims that the s.n.p. Narrowly avoided going over the legal spending limit for a by election by only declaring costs of rented accommodation for days campaigners were using it and silence Sunday exclusive mum gypped and robbed of 4000 pounds of serial fiends strikes again my affair with sex monster Cronon us and the Sunday Mail exclusive football heading for kids you heard on our news and we're talking a bit more detail about that story but let's introduce our paper of yours this week a professor Mary pick of the University of Glasgow and the former political correspondent at s.t.v. Funeral Good morning to both of you good morning. We'll start with this quote Look her coverage on the deaths of these immigrants fewer I'm sure pointing I think to that so the Mail on Sunday which has this interview with a a people trafficker that we just covered Yes all the papers of obviously covered there's some one or 2 that have indeed put it in the front page I must say it's quite nice to see something other than breaks in the front page that maybe know this but it took something like this to change the front pages having said that most of the papers are covering the background of the people who might be involved in this those who are arrested where the larvae came from all that kind of stuff the mail has taken a rather different tack and and in my view produced a really interesting story they have tracked down somebody who organizes trafficking a patently from wall to wall to I'm still there whether he lives there of that's really was I'm not sure a guy called Marty and he they put an undercover reporter on it who contacted this guy through Facebook didn't meet him face to face it would seem but he offered to bring her into the u.k. In a container for between 14 and 17000 pounds this was I think from Europe the speculation is that the people who died in the container may have paid a lot more than that because they were coming a lot further but when the reporter said to the sky Well you know I'm a bit scared that people have died here Pam We laughed and said Oh well that's the luck of the draw me which was the headline yes the papers got on and horrible. Human body it's quite a difficult one to investigate given given the borders and an old. Rest of it what you make of the coverage today it does difficult to investigate I mean the other front page is the observer which talks about the possibility of the u.k. Being excluded under Bret's it from the international body the body that investigates these trafficking cases in the Hague that's purely speculative most of the other stuff is purely speculative but one of the things I think that you know myself agreed on is that given the fact that migrants who come under these these routes congregate in certain occupations in certain occupations and nail bars and the mayor mentioned and also car washes that the possibility for actually some homegrown investigative journalism is very clearly there and has been I think overlooked so the male gets gets the prior gets the prize in the side competition for actually getting under the skin of this sort of issue and interesting that Marty says you know we will be there for 1616 hours which is you know well they have boards that 16 hours I can do with access with a minimum of 12 take it or take it or leave it and 1000 pounds and a 1000 pounds an hour and the there is one detail I think you were talking about about how it's all or it's reported and one of the newspapers and this is speculation that 100 people it's not had been trafficked possibly in this in this whole are going to from this whole organization but we obviously we have the death of $39.00 people in and well that what it is speculation is there was a sort of that chip here like of 100 this is one group and they don't know if others have come in or others are due to come in but yeah I take money point it is difficult to investigate but not impossible I mean for example take a. Vosh how many of a sitting here have been to a comfortable wash you try even for a viper people jump a good clean your car wash your old Polish Ole and charge you a fiver now you don't need to be a mathematical genius to work out these people cannot possibly live on the act if they're getting up each for each car now you know I feel and nail bars. Are simply Yeah this idea that there was a 100 people in a batch of 3 containers which is what the mill in Sunday is alleging does actually square with some of the reporting through the week which suggested that this is where the lot he was found with these were the people were found it was an area where local said seen other people jumping out of lot he saw me be that this is of well used route and and it's only now there's only you know because of this particular show you know with lower volume but we low volume but well used because of the lack of security. Rather than yeah but yeah but what was being reported during the weekend as you say was low volume it was the odd pair sent Yeah sort of jumping out of the lobby which that I'm not at my not at the you know Anyway let's as you were saying piano Sadly this story pushed back so off many of the front pages but still featuring some of the muddy Oh yes indeed So the thing is the thing is that I'm very disappointed in the in the papers today considering all the scope they had for polls a number crunching ahead of the general election vote tomorrow and maybe tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow if Dominic Cummings is to be trusted on this we'll have votes on Monday Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday they're saying so Corbin's in a stock was at war over our elections as on the front page of The Sunday Times if we didn't know that already but also on page 12 it covers the 3 ways to force a poll the. Storm parliament sacked the one line bill and a vote of no confidence of the fixed terms parliament at the 2 thirds majority of the simple majority but remarkably I think that everything is down to who said who said who about what and there's no understanding that the fixed term part or. The one line bill would mean that there would be milk multiple scope for amending as it goes through it stages and it would have to go all through all House of Commons stages so. Under some basic number crunching on the vote rather than tittle tattle would have been helpful as well but so it's extensively covered there one of thing the Sunday Telegraph does it does have a constituency a profile on Bishop or Quinn how bricks are put in or the mining town in Tory sites where the Tory candidate is a young female the head of Davison who might be expected to appeal to the Sunday Telegraph score demographic. That shows that the or that the Bishop Auckland Labor majority has been dropping steadily since 20 since 2010 and is now $502.00 so these are exactly the kind of seats which is looking to pick up an early general election and to compensate for any losses in Scotland or in the south the Liberal Democrats but you know if you're not on the front page of The Telegraph I think you are highlighting this story that there's just not enough time to at the 16 year olds to the role if there is this is snap election Well I was going to say generally there there's a very little new regard to plexi Let's get difficult to do you know but no you isn't a well not you know you can hear you don't previously and I think that's the problem I think people particularly in the Sunday kind of sitting up I afraid the Saturday thinking that we don't need to work too hard something in the Saturday night and this week clearly getting. More of the story. There are kind of half lines of Snorri is there one top lines of things we already knew for example the Sunday Times don't put petrol on the fire Barbara said the Archbishop of Canterbury basically telling everybody to moderate their language which we did not Rick's ago I was going to see just don't do that I did certainly did that 2 weeks ago that was also in the front page but they've also had to go on the Sunday Times to the Democratic Republic of Congo or to do an interview with the outspoken to get this line which is 2 or 3 weeks old I mean that that's what you call dating but there is there is one. I mean there's a poll which is of interest I think to be fair in the Sunday Times which is that 72 percent of Northern Ireland voters now support remain as opposed to 55 percent and 2016 so the deep peace call report in The Sunday Telegraph and elsewhere Scotland on Sunday to tell Johnston must go back to Brussels to negotiate for there is something I want to confront Yeah it is which is why it's being you know it so done to undermine their position interestingly there is another poll in The Observer an opinion poll which puts the Conservatives 40 percent for the general election against labor $2416.00 point lead they see this interesting I see it in the Sunday Times front page but it's actually for the observer they took away at the end sort of think it's not it was no use it was out yesterday it was for them it's for the server it was. The other think the example is the Telegraph has got a story saying that if if a new man there's a lot of ifs in this story if if an amendment went through to a live 16 and 17 year olds in full there wouldn't be enough time to do it for a December election. But that would favor the Tories surely wouldn't rule it was not really even a question of who voters it yes and your pointis. Well were asking when we might know when we might leave the European Union and obviously with all these if we did have all these amendments I suppose your point is saying that it would you know it stretches well whenever Let's talk about Ruth Davidson who is teaching in some of the papers and this backlash about 2nd jobs it's covered and covered in 3 on the coast minded Rhodes Davidson's new post the sad indictment of the system she adores on page 19 and on page 10 of the Sunday Times I miss piece and David's and backlash push to ban 2nd jobs so I think in this case it's the nature of the 2nd job very much more the fact it was a 2nd job that's been the key but the best the most reflective piece is Page 22 Scotland on Sunday a page by you McComb who are better apart from the toxic Tory unites the nation. Who reflects not only the on the factors that will make this a longer term story 1st of all of course Davison's continuing to sit in Holyrood will continue will continue to feed the story but he points out that actually makes it impossible for her to front any future Better Together campaign credibly and she was whether or not she was interested in doing it the standout candidate to do that and why why do you bruited is as a strong possibility now as the as an s.n.p. Source quote to be a McComb says she's given as all the or she's written or attack lines photos Yeah I mean she has said I think into an interview that we did with her quite recently that she hadn't ruled although I think Fiona you were suggesting that you know she's not really very interested in anyway but well it does sure fans of astonishing lack of judgment could have said this particular development so she'd wanted to pursue a further. Career I don't know of his the right word in politics this was a rather an odd way of going about it but take us to the Sunday Times Fiona and Prince son Jonah Well this of course was their story drawing sometimes draw a story drawing the close links as they saw it with the convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein That's quite interesting because that this story broke what have I see a 4 weeks ago and people have questioned aspects of the story but today the Sunday Times I've actually run a piece courting all the people who are questioning their story which I find quite interesting a patently Yeah people rant about Prince Andrew are questioning the veracity of some of the photographs. In particular and have indeed brought in a forensic expert to look at the. I mean there was a dock a television documentary during that week about this and the fact of the matter is this story is not going away disinterested because the key for to graph still photographs that is used quite a lot is of Prince Andrew purportedly with his arm at Rome this young woman and. I think some of the forensic examination is about what she's wearing and whether she is wearing different parties or whether it may have been I think the suggestion is it may have been for the photo shopped or know that there is an element of that but the key question is actually his hand in the photograph friend there saying the fingers are not right. Or is not somebody else's Yes I mean there are no yes that's just Luke does not write a doctorate hand yeah. Sorry we're going to see if there are no that's all right I think I think but it's not like that would help you get let down on the other but it's interesting that the Saudi prince is doing this is yes it's sort of backing that and so they already are doing what it is but I cannot on the other all that that enables them to keep to keep the story on page 3 actually so I mean they are attacking their own story but they but they they have landed any punches on it they're just waving they're just waving a flag that is back in play maybe maybe the credibility of a people if it's if it's willing enough to see well you know people are sitting down on this or it could have been that there was nothing now. Well some detail Marty we're talking about this football heading prospect of it we had to end our news to that thing it broke in The Sunday Mail it's got it as an exclusive you yeah football heading ban for kids mischief. One ting saying one thing to make the move to ban heading from the 12 following the University of Glasgow results which came out in the last week I mean there's such a thing. Gives a really strong credence to what people have suspected for a long time and so is now the smoking gun and it's up to the football authorities to act I have to say it's it's really good to see the s.f. a Taking a lead on this and not being the subject of a mail campaign arguing that they should take the lead on this so if they did this moved it through they would Scotland were the 1st country in Europe to actually put in place and under 12 Yeah it would seem that they've got little choice but to do this no I wouldn't given the research. Well as some people have been arguing this for some years perhaps the the real question is why they don't need doing it now now I suppose you can argue only now is the research watertight but then I think there were a lot of indications before and many families of footballers who have contract it every onset dementia or certainly arguing about yeah what or Frank Koppel the then the United footballer certainly says that and the evidence is there that he suffered dementia as a result of it but one caveat that some people have said through the week is that this is a story called a search of a people people who were heading heavy leather at least football's in the sixty's and seventy's and that the football knows a very different thing well it's like a balloon it is and it's much it is much lighter and has been a progressive a lighter so this may be the case but frankly when you're dealing with children playing football it probably is the sort of Me is better so some say cautionary principle isn't it but yeah if the price of that is that football is no longer a football. Well I don't it's a price worth paying it's but it's under twelve's. And what happens in under 12 what will inevitably return to the senior game was not a few years one I mean there are people who never you never had a ball at 12 are suddenly going to lead a team but now we've moved away from from and sad cases on individual suspicions about football as to looking at a large aggregated sample this is a long study longer Toodle studies can run on and if there are signs but the mention wrist started to drop signal mirror we know people will mean an exactly as professional there's no reason whiteness necessarily has to go through into the scene again but frankly if it doesn't show that then football may have not to be football as you are we understand they have maybe some issues around that but that's still a long way off this is a really but it's a really important and good precautionary move in the face of the evidence Ok let's just we want to round off and I want to get in the head of story about which is when Scotland was under a dark spell because it's a great feature really isn't a feeling of yes there's 2 or 3 take it and send it there's no particular Vince Vaughn right. It's coming up to Halloween and basically they're saying that Scotland with put to kill really nasty when it came to Paris security and witches and apparently James the sick sex thoughts and not just down to going to sex no way we're going to go on for some time and I don't 100 year there across Europe apparently 50000 people where executed is which it is at this isn't it but if 6917th in Chile which is in Scotland with a population of only 800000 we managed apparently to get rid of 4th which I think are moving puts some doubt in those figures but doesn't really I mean the sense the figures are doesn't doesn't really matter. Auckland was more vicious in prosecuting witches than England and witches were typically strangled and booked strangled and brought rather than hanged as an ng as in England one of the things you find throughout generally and it's not totally but generally throughout European which which cases now happens later on in Salem Massachusetts is that the more Presbyterian the more the more Presbyterian the more witches and they were also its own women yeah your Roth thank you very much for my political correspondent s.t.v. And also we heard from Professor money protect it's 28 minutes past 9. Join me Ricky Ross I'll be in the company of Giovanni are you c b r Glasgow Italian roots of truth that her love of hospitality and love of food cheers sort of be telling me more about the remarkable theatre work she's done with young offenders and if you've ever wondered what economic model to champion too afraid to ask let me help you in the company of journalist Fraser Nelson and author Chris I'll be playing these songs to start this Sunday all coming up on Sunday soundtrack me for heroes here after 10 on b.b.c. Reduce Scotland. It's no 29 minutes past 9 it's still a Good Morning Scotland on Sunday with Gillian miles and Bill White for the n.h.s. In Scotland is forever at the center of politics and the government points so to spending more than ever on health opposition parties see it's in crisis in the middle of all this is Audit Scotland a public spending watchdog the latest report from the auditor general warns that not enough progress has been made with integrating health and social care and points so the savings made by health boards to meet budgets are too often one off and not repeatable Well I've been speaking to the auditor general Cullen Gardner and asked her to explain why she describes the n.h.s. In Scotland as running hot. We're seeing health boards and hospitals across Scotland really struggling to meet demand that's partly because there are financial pressures on the n.h.s. But more it's because more of us living for longer we're living with the sorts of conditions that you can't hear but need to keep supporting and because we haven't developed the alternative services in primary care near people's homes that would release some of that pressure on hospitals that means people are working harder and harder to keep up rather than really be able to improve services in the way the government would like to but we've been talking about some of these problems for years almost for decades now why do we seem unable to get to grips with them I think there's a couple of things one the rate at which the population of Scotland and other developed countries is ageing is unprecedented we've never had to do that before that's a really good thing we're living longer but it does mean that we need to work very hard at changing services the 2nd reason I think is that all of us tend to think about the health service as being about hospitals so if you think about the controversy in parliament in the press it tends to be about waiting times how long people are waiting in a in a and e. How long they're waiting for hip replacements on knee replacements we know much less about what's happening in primary care and community services and I think it means that it skews our attention towards one bit of the service at the expense of the part of the service it could really help to release some of that pressure is that because those things are more measurable you have metrics for waiting times or the number of hits to place the whatever it is and it's very difficult to get a handle on how often a district nurse comes droned or how easy it is to get a g.p.s. Appointment that's part of the problem and we know that waiting times targets of become a real sort of political part of the back and forth every week 1st mist of questions I think it's also though that we can all imagine what a hospital looks like our children of on there our parents might have died and we've been treated in hospital we know what that looks like it's much harder for lots of us to imagine what a really good community based service it could keep elderly parents at home safe and well. All involved in their community because although it's happening in some parts of Scotland we just haven't got that widespread experience and that makes it hard to picture what a change for the better might look like well it's interesting you talk about that example of of social care where. It would be great to be able to care for see elderly or frail people in their own home and I sometimes tell though by politicians is the holy grail of saving money and getting a better service but some clinicians see actually that might be quite expensive to further some older people it certainly would be for people with the most significant problems who need the most support it almost certainly isn't a cheaper alternative although it probably is a better alternative I think the most interesting and whether the biggest opportunity group is those people who are just about coping at home and with a bit of extra help would really be able to do that for longer and be happier themselves nobody wants to be in hospital unnecessarily within some great examples of charities like the trade in Dumfries and Galloway that can provide quite straightforward service asking a neighbor to help with shopping regularly for an older person so that fresh food in the house a bit of social contact and somebody who notices when things are starting to go wrong those sorts of things can make a huge difference but they are patchy in different parts of Scotland at the moment where you don't order not a clinician not a doctor it's interesting the way you talk you've obviously looked at lots of different things that are going well things are not going well which throws you back a very basic question what is an auditor actually does and something as big as the n.h.s. And school and this is a huge sprawling bureaucracy would you start we take a bottom up on a top down approach so I appoint an auditor to every health board in Scotland they're out there regularly throughout the year getting a sense of how things are going what's going well what problems the boards are facing and we get really detailed insights into what's happening in every part of gotten from that were at the same time I seems to. And so look at the national picture the big picture what's changing what good practice looks like the things that are being tried and working well and if we put those 2 things together we get a sense of how the n.h.s. In Scotland is working we also talk to people we talk to doctors and nurses to patients to be police particular services to people who are running charities to get a sense of what the problems are that if a thing but also what they thema he difference and where I think quite a unique position to be able to step back and look at the picture across the piece and pull it together to provide assurance to people of Scotland about how their money's being spent well it's interesting because what you see there and in other interviews you don't always talk just about the money you talk about value for money and what that money can achieve is that the way you view it that it's not just the boat making the books balance absolutely public order is wider than the order of a private company with their salute to make sure the money is being spent properly and that the financial statements are right but the bigger picture is absolutely about what are we getting for it is government policy being delivered in a way that makes the most of every public pound that's being spent but it is of course fundamentally the money and it's a huge amount of the Scottish Government's budget over all of that the most the spend and getting towards I think it's $1.00 of 42 percent is a source project and getting towards 50 percent that stage it's a really colossal part of for governments therefore and therefore very political It absolutely is political everybody's got a view on the n.h.s. We've all got experience of it and it's a very fraught part of the political debate between the government and all of the opposition parties I think what we can bring to that debate is really independent evidence based impartial analysis of what's happening based on our access to the n.h.s. Right across the country in a way that parliament can trust and that I hope is useful in informing publics the public's understanding of how the n.h.s. Is working and that debate about how it needs to change. How do you avoid either getting bogged down in the detail and I was going into to one particular project and seeing this isn't value for money or the money is being wasted here and on the other hand just becoming out with recommendations that are sort of general us to be sort of on a dying. Sometimes we do have to look at things that have gone wrong in one part of Scotland so I've reported for example on n.h.s. Tayside over a number of years reflecting the particular problems that they're facing and the recommendations there are very specific to n.h.s. Tayside and the people that it's but I think we really can add value by looking at the government policy for example a policy we've talked about of shifting more care into the community in primary care and not just making recommendations about removing some of the barriers to that change but also identifying the things that are working and helping to draw attention to them and helping people's understanding of what it might look to do things differently you're said though that the government's going to fail to reach its targets for 2020. That's a political statement in and of itself is not I don't think it is the legislation that sets up the role of order to General is really clear that I'm not able to comment on the merits of government policy it's the government to set the policy My role is to to comment on the way in which they're delivering that So progress against targets is absolutely within my remit whether money could be spent better that we get more for the amount with spending or spend less to get the same results that's also a game for me the policy itself is properly for government to decide but but if a good government comes up with a policy I mean some of the controversial ones recently would have been c. Baby boxes which the s.n.p. Government policy or building new hospitals or or closing or failing to close hospitals which was clinicians prophecy should have been done these are political issues but they're also they also impact on budget slightly they do I think there's an important distinction there between this government any government being elected to put forward its policies and make the case for those at the ballot box that's probably there for government and my role in providing information about how well those policies are being developed and how money is being spent. You can't you can't separate the 2 things but I think they are distinguishable and I'm very clear about what my role is one of the things he said in this week's report is the boards have used the maids savings but often buy one off series that won't be repeatable in coming years was an example of I think the most widespread example we see is people filling vacancies late or not assault so if a member of staff leaves instead of immediately appointing a new nurse or a new consultant the post left vacant for a bit that saves them money it obviously also does affect services it means that the staff who are still imposed have to work harder it may mean that patients are waiting longer for their services so it helps to balance the books but it doesn't improve services the patients or more importantly it really is only a short term fix the same slating has to be found again next year and the transformation of services that would be the cure to the problem isn't happening so ho much more money is needed in the next few years I'm not sure the answer is more money we've talked already about the different views that clinicians may have about that we haven't properly tested it the government's own figures suggest that if we carry on providing services the way that we are while to man keeps rising we'll be a 1800000000 pound shortfall by 2024 that's a big gap the government's policy is to make the sorts of shifts we've been talking about to spend money better and I think it's really key that we do make those changes if you think that the n.h.s. Was set up more than 70 years ago now 1st of all we're all living longer than some people did then secondly our lives are changed and recognizably over that period but actually fundamentally lots of things in the n.h.s. Are trying to do the same thing the trying to treat or cure people for things in a one off way when more and more of us need that continuing care and support in our lives and we really do need to think very hard about how we bring the n.h.s. Up to the point where it can cope with support meet what we all expect for life in the 20. Century but the government does seem to suggest that burning more money is at least part of the answer Freeman the cover so you for saying on Radio Scotland this week that she expected the n.h.s. Proportion of the government spend to reach and perhaps exceed 50 percent is that reasonable the government committed to real terms increases in the amount it spends on the n.h.s. And that's probably necessary at least in the short term I think it's really important to be clear though that I don't think it's right to set a target of spending 50 percent of the Scottish budget on the n.h.s. We need to make sure there's enough spent but every pound that spent unnecessarily on health and social care is money that's not being spent on educating children and young people retraining adults over longer working lives it's not being spent on investing in the Scottish economy in ways that would have that payback with the new tax raising powers there's a tradeoff for every pound that's spent on the n.h.s. Unnecessarily that potentially could be spent on something that would would help to make a living and working it's gotten better for all of us in future it's been a couple of very big capital projects in the n.h.s. To Scotland recently and have been quite controversial because of health and safety issues that came up in the case of the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow after opened but in the case of the Sick Kids an Edinburgh just before or snow in abeyance that. For a year what's your take on those. It's already in the public domain that I'll be pretty singer reports on the hospital before Christmas the aim is to really pull together everything we know about what happened in that situation from the audit report that was carried out earlier this year and the 2 independent requiring inquiries that have been published so far I think what that will do is set out some of the questions that the public inquiry that the Cabinet secretaries announce needs to address we don't know what happened and I don't want to speculate about but I do so. It's interesting though that a number of the big projects not just in the health service but things like Edinburgh schools as well have raised questions about the oversight and inspection of building and construction work while it's happening and we're looking at what common factors there might be that would help to explain some of the things have gone wrong nobody wants to be in that position and we'd like to try to make sure it doesn't happen again you've written in the past about leadership and the need for leadership how does that square with responsibility and the fact that in some of these big projects that nobody's nobody loses their job should people be held more accountable for their own jobs be on the line we don't know what's happened in the case of the Sick Children Hospital here in Edinburgh and I'm I think we should always that on the basis of evidence rather than Egypt reactions or speculation but you're right accountability for the way public money is spent is really important public money comes from the taxes that we all pay and we're contributing to public services the accountability is very important I think that's one of the roles that we play here in Audit Scotland we can produce evidence about what's happened about who's accountable and sometimes about the system wide problems that occur that are causing things to go wrong rather than individuals actions in a way that lets government and ultimately Parliament hold people to account for what they've done or not done does that square with your ideas of leadership that people at the head of organizations should lead rather than simply sit on top of the pile and I think that one good example about that is exactly what we were talking about with the difficulties of shifting away from reliance on hospital to building new services in the community that would be better for the future and all of the n.h.s. Chief execs I talk about are committed to that they completely understand it but they would also say to me that what they're actually held to account for is whether or not they hit their meeting time start their waiting times targets and I think if you look at the debates in Parliament you can see that what people are talking about is how many people are treated within 4. In Accident and Emergency not the progress that's being made in developing alternatives to a any nearer to people's homes I think there's something important about making sure that we have got targets that help to make the changes we want to see that the focus on the things that are important and that we then hold people to account for that change not just for one narrow part of their job one of the odd things about your report that struck me was that actually although many of these. Targets are not being met actually the number of people being treated within them are often going up it's just that the man for it has actually exceeded the. One of us putting at it spot on what we thought last year was that actually more people of the theme in treated on time than ever before but because of the rising demand the targets are not being hits and I think that that's the problem in itself we need to make sure that we're on top of rising demand not just hitting targets that was that sometime ago and secondly that those targets are covering the whole picture not skewing what we focus on where managerial attention is up to one part of the system you talked earlier about the n.h.s. Is it's been around for a long time. It's been subject to some change some organizational change over the years but is it time or is there time for a more radical restructuring of the way it works for instance do we need to boards separate boards and different territory leaders or should the be one n.h.s. Scotland or should we be thinking big. I think you're right there have been changes over the years but on the whole of tends to be those sorts of structures about processes how many boards do we need how do they relate to local authorities what about integration authorities we've seen lots of changes that sort of level and in a sense I think that might be part of the problem is we are overly things the integration of authority overlaid on other structures that are already there that's exactly right that we've got $31.00 integration authorities on top of 14 territorial health boards and 30 local authorities the governments also been talking about regional structures for a while that somehow sort of fit in around that none of that really helps in terms of what the n.h.s. Is there to do but actually I think what's much more important is to be focusing on what n.h.s. Services we need what n.h.s. Staff doctors nurses new types of professionals needed to deliver that and how that relates to the different parts of Scotland ground up we all need to have a sense of what the health service is there for in a sense of confidence that it will be there for us and our families when we need it we know there are some great things happening across Scotland we've seen some really good examples of the ambulance service and it's just 24 and the police working together much better to respond to people who are have got acute mental health problems are in real distress when you give that as an example in your report don't you just just describe her that works and that takes some of the pressure off but you hospitals or early in the past if somebody was wandering the streets in acute mental health distress really in distress themselves but also causing anxiety to passers by very often what would happen is that the police would be called because there were 24 hours and then the immediate response service they would not have access to the person's records they probably wouldn't have much expertise in mental health problems or what to do about them and all they could do is take the person back to the police station quite possibly lock them in a cell and then try to find somebody in the n.h.s. Who could help Now that's not great for the person involved it's clear. Not a good response to their distress and the problems they're facing it's not good for the police because they're not the experts in dealing with these situations and it's not a good way of dealing with the problem over all the new ways of working with Scene mean that the police officers who respond 1st of all have got really good access to n.h.s. 24 experts who do know about mental health problems who can give advice or can talk to the person directly in many cases can access the person's record so they know who they've been in touch with what medication they're on what services are helping to support them and they can move much more quickly to put the right care and support in place rather than potentially that person ending up in any which again is just escalating the pressure on them and delaying the time until they get the care and support they need to help solve that problem that's just one example but there are different ways in which the same approach of very quickly bringing in people with the right expertise and the right information about that patient can give a better faster response and take pressure off the queue hospitals at the same time this is your last report I think into the n.h.s. You leave office in next year. Overall looking back over the reports you've done on the n.h.s. And all the work you've done in there it is your view that wooden or approaching crisis. I my reports always focus on the wider picture of what's happening in the n.h.s. Obviously what sense to get picked up in the news is the problems and I understand why that's the case but we also know there are loads of great things happening in the in the health service and the fact that we are treating as many people as we are with the improvements in patient safety and patient satisfaction that we're seeing is a real recognition of the efforts people are putting in and the fact that the health service is still for most of us most of the time doing exactly what it needs to do what my report this year is said though is that we can't rely on that being the case indefinitely we know that pressure is ramping up on the system and on the people who make it work and it's getting more and more urgent that the sorts of changes that we need to see are happening in practice where I really don't want to leave the impression this is a health service in crisis but I think the time to act to protect it for the future is now. Of course the n.h.s. As we've discussed there's a very large part of public expenditure in government the government does in Scotland but your department produces reports on all sorts of ministers of. Arms in Scotland are you proud of the way that draw that it's seen as a sort of I jumped to government that keeps your kids government or just keeps administration on us that's drawn from well from nothing from the revolution I think we have grown into a key part of the way government in Scotland works now as you say since the establishment of the Scottish Parliament back in 1999 it's been a really interesting period we've seen over the last 10 years financial pressures through austerity we see an increasing polarization of the political debate around the referendum in 2014 obviously the BRICs that referendum the election of President Trump we've seen the center ground for debate being reduced in size and polarization increasing and we've also seen attacks on really important independent bits of government like the judiciary like the b.b.c. And other news outlets and I think that makes our role in being able to occupy that central ground and provide independent impartial evidence based information for the people of Scotland about how their money's being used how public service is a working all the more important you felt under attack by the politicians. Work is inevitably political with a small baby p. We understand the Opposition policy Titian's are always going to use it to criticize government government will always find uncomfortable to have problems and weaknesses pointed out by order to that that comes with the job what it means is that we do work really hard to make sure that the evidence stands up to scrutiny that what we report is fair and balanced that we're including what's working as well as what's not and that we're communicating the messages as clearly as we can sometimes on the left. With the individual words we make sure that our process is support that we make sure we support our staff for the challenges that it brings with it and we recognise I think that we're part of a. Turbulent political climate at the moment but we also think we've got an important role to play on behalf of the people of Scotland has that caused any stress for you is there anything to do with your decision to demote office next year actually it's not a decision to admit office this is intentionally an 8 year fixed term appointment that's in the legislation that governs the role and the purpose for of is to make sure that I retain my independence that I don't end up working with people in government for so long that I kind of go native and can't keep that independence than what we call professional skepticism to be able to comment on them impartially and without fear or favor but you're relieved to be going I think 8 years is probably a good term of office it can be quite intense that times and it's not about the individual it's about the role of public order and the ability to keep on making that independent contribution it's been a massive privilege to have the job over the last 7 and a half years I think I'm leaving all it's gotten in good shape for the future and it will be a great chance to think about what to do next Sure but you're you've also over the years amassed a fantastic wealth of experience it does seem a pity if it's not going to be you somewhere else and thing in mind well because of the need to protect my independence that I'm not allowed to go and work for any of the bodies that I audit so that's ruled out to start with I would be interested in thinking about how I continue to use them as that expertise and the contacts with people right across public services and the wider Scottish civil society to think about how we deal with some of those really not the problems that come with an ageing population with climate change with shifting from a focus to how much we spend on things like the health service to what we get for that money so it feels like a great opportunity to have space to think about that as coddling God or the auditor general well listening to that. It is journalist and health specialist Pennington who joins us in the student or fellow Good morning it's interesting is that let's let's start at the end there because is there from Cullen garner that she'll still be on the scene somewhere albeit that she won't be able to take a new job in the health service Yes I mean I think I heard her saying that she's likely to be carrying on turning her mind to these huge challenges you know and aging population which includes let's face it and it's us and have them care start off and you know how we're going to manage. Both those services all of those things into the future it gives me huge hope actually that we can come up with the right solutions knowing that somebody of her caliber on the case she's been doing these reports for a while as you point certainly must be quite frustrating for her but actually she's warned about some of the same things a number of times and nothing much has happened are we are we heading towards this closeness that she's well and the things that she's obviously been very measured I mean I think that that's absolutely characteristic of the order to generals roll and you know in this age of fake news when stuff gets done so easily it's amazing that. The information that's produced by or that Scotland is fact based it's spy on you know it's not about grabbing headlines and grabbing stories it's evidence based it's trustworthy and you know for me every message that comes out these reports is incredibly spot on and I think it is for people in the service as well and yeah there's frustration behind some of the some of the phraseology in the report about the slow pace of change good things are definitely happening at what I do and. They're not happening everywhere there are these examples like in acute mental problems where a mental health problems who're. Police and paramedics and so on are working together to get people the help the they need and they deserve right away but is it being are those lessons being learned through the service I think that you know when it comes to the police and for instance the Scottish Ambulance Service that those are national service says they'll be sharing their expertise that the real pressure on particularly mental health services is access to beds and access to staff and mental health campaigners have been complaining that there has been no parity you know if you break a leg or you have a heart attack you've got the expectations of the service and meet them when it comes to serious mental health problems there are still real gaps and this keeps being pointed out but it seems in the end tranche of all. What about the actual set up the bureaucracy of the n.h.s. In Scotland as we were pointing out in the interview that all these territorial boards there are parts of the n.h.s. Which are nationwide. And then there are other bureaucracies overlaying that integration authority to sort so there's a lot there. Does seem as though new organizations get added and sort of plugs on to the existing structure and nothing falls off the other end you know we have seen the development of so-called integrated joint boards i j b s that are meant to bring together health spending and social care spending in decide where the money goes in local communities and again that's something that the report says is very patchy in very variable around Scotland and $14.00 territorial health boards and then special health boards and I think Caroline God knows making real points about the comparative cost of the health service and I think I'm hearing her saying Have a look at where there is waste and there is significant waste if you're thinking about various duplication of services you know people reinventing wheels in localities there's cultural competition between boards however there are 2 schools of thought about this one is it just takes eyes off balls when you talk about restructuring and the other is we've got to strip out some of those costs and perhaps ease make things easier to develop and spread and the politics as we've pointed to numerous times comes into the n.h.s. In a big way when it comes to see the closure or the moving of of a facility or hospital and so on well I mean you know Caroline Gardiner started off our interview by talking about the ageing population and the impact that would have now that should come as no surprise to anyone that's been the pope because we have known about this it was spelled out 15 years ago in the care report that this was coming down the. Track and as I say it doesn't just affect the general population of course n.h.s. And health care staff and social care staff the general population so we've got an aging workforce as well it's entirely predictable The trouble is it's politically dodged by politicians of every hue I have to say because it's incredibly difficult there's the potential for enormous Ramey if you start talking about imagining designing our health service to meet the needs of people now how would it look like the one that was put in place 70 years ago Possibly not but that needs really good really honest really interactive conversations around this country because there's challenges for everyone the challenges for managers those challenges for clinicians is a big challenge is for members of the public if Caroline Gardner is to be believed and what we've got to address now is the sustainability and it just into the future it's all our responsibility to get involved and turn it into a server thanks very much and that's all from us for this morning good morning Scott then back tomorrow at 6 o'clock goodbye. On digital radio f.m. Medium wave and the b.b.c. Sounds b.b.c. Radio Scotland. The news that 10 o'clock am on the mid to low President Trump is expected to make a statement today following reports of a u.s. Special forces operation against the leader of the Islamic state group the death of a book out Albert Daddy has been wrongly reported on several previous occasions 1st Jr j a professor of international relations at the London School of Economics says if confirmed the death would strike a serious blow to conduct that he provides inspiration it provides motivation and he also provides guidance now only 2000 so that and that and since. Syria and Iraq and beyond but also followers and supporters well why so symbolically and operationally I think his that the reports are accurate this would be very significant borders Johnson is accusing M.P.'s of holding the country hostage by refusing to give him the general election he wants in December the Lib Dems and the s.n.p. Have joined forces and an attempt to try get an early or pull Here's the B.B.C.'s political correspondent Jessica Parker the prime minister says that the only going paralysis is causing real damage to the country as he set to ask M.P.'s to back an election for December the 12th he has said in exchange they can have more time to look at his bricks it deal but to secure a snap poll he needs the support of 2 thirds of M.P.'s Jeremy Kuhlmann has said Labor will back an election wants all vestiges of a new deal departure off the table now the liberal Democrats in the s.n.p. Have put forward a joint plan for an election on December the 9th conditional on the e.u. Granting a 3 month extension Labor leader Jeremy Corbin is in air today where he'll promise to deliver the investment Scotland needs to build a fitter more equal and just society He'll be speaking at the Unite conference later Scottish to the Chief Whip Morris golden insists labor is finished in Scotland the Scottish f.a. Is to consider a ban on children under 12 heading the ball following a report linking dimentia to football the governing body will look at a range of options off the experts at Glasgow University suggested former players were 3 and a half times more likely to die of degenerative brain disease a woman's died following a route smash in the north east the 2 car collision happened just before 9 o'clock yesterday morning on the be a 9773 miles north of bankruptcy a cardigan worn by Kurt Cobain during the event as m.t.v. Unplugged to perform. And has sold for more than a quarter of a 1000000 pines Julian's Auction says it's the most expensive sweater they've ever sold here is the auctioneer Julianne the sweaters a sweater that he actually bought nice thrift shop is made sometime in the sixty's heavily used had a lot of stains on has cigarette burns it's easily identified because of the stains and burns and he wore it on the most important performance in my opinion so it's a holy grail of article of clothing of Kurt Cobain's that could ever come up for auction you know with the sports years John Barnes and Commander Josh Taylor's the new unified world super lightweight champion and he's also lifted the supersedeas trophy champion I did the w.b. a Belt after beating the American Regis program by a majority decision in London as no 16 wins from 16 fights for the boxer from Prestonpans who dedicated his latest success to his late father in law my girlfriend's daughter passed away on the 50 visits a more sure.