Teano says Tottenham need to be more consistent if they're to be real contenders for the Premier League title Spurs are 2nd 6 points behind Liverpool into Milan will play 2 home league games behind closed doors following the alleged racist abuse of a Napoli defender and also play a 3rd match at the San Siro without opening the curve a section of the ground elsewhere have dismissed Frankie ban as manager Chesterfield have sacked Martin Allen algae or extended his winning run to 16 from 16 starts over the jumps in the Desert Orchid chasing Kempton elegant escape on the Grand National and finally a reminder you can have bowled Bible Commentary of the 3rd Test between Australia and India on 5 Live Sports Extra This is B.B.C. Radio 5 Live on digital B.B.C. Selling smart speakers. And the weather rolling rain in Scotland will soon Therese roads across France rain with sunny spells for the northern half of B.K. Rather cloudy for the south with some crucially western areas and very mild voice today of knowing and 11 for Penzance on B.B.C. One. Bashing. You can start D.C.I. List and returns is a very troubled man the job of course is to control. The. Commons your question. Will just. Lucia stranger was lost starts New Year's Day at 9 on B.B.C. One. Can you get us looking forward to that lovely right 5 past 3. This is joining I am and it's time for our weekly look into the world of North American sports with James and Joe not welcome along to the North American sports show my name's Joel income Walker and I'm James Wakem and Joe Long Can I stop either or go on because I've got your present Christmas I mean you're a few days late it well well I know well actually I'm a few days early we are recording this program and it's still not yet Christmas Yeah so let's just pretend that it's actually Christmas Day I K or the 28 where is this going out 29th good anyway on that note I've got you a present I think you'll like it right OK here we go. Now you can write one of the when I when I said the 29th I meant the 28 Here we go thank you. You can tell this one's yours this was yours. Can you explain what it is please. You can hear the opening of the wrath I have got you a mug. Oh how cool James you shouldn't have is a terrifying image on this mug one that would keep me awake at night it is a mug of gritty the Philadelphia of the very controversial Philadelphia Flyers mascot from the N.H.L. And as you know James I'm a huge Philadelphia yes yes. You know I well thank you very much well that's all right I thought you'd like them at the the writing on it yeah yeah he sees you when you're sleeping he knows when you're awake which has a 5 hair of firing if you look at the picture Google a picture of gritty and imagine him saying those words to you while you're sleeping so I realize that you probably wouldn't have got me PRESIDENT Oh you say that James you say that so I decided to get one for myself I mean that you mean Romney you mean to say I got you one of the. Right 2nd they get well James you say that yes you say that I wouldn't get you one as if I wouldn't get you on great mate there you go thanks Joe a lot I mean it's very find of you funny when you are younger than you are I got a mug and he says I woke up feeling dangerous with a big 6 on you know on a bacon may feel. The Cleveland Browns So there you go we now every time we present this program we can now have our mugs excellent you know. What I what I've got you Jane in all seriousness is a fascinating interview with someone about the N.F.L. Tonight that's what that is my present to you Partridge lives. Thank you for that Yes So tonight on the program we got some interesting stuff and we are yeah we have talking about the phenomenon that is Monday Night Football and any such a huge thing in S.P.N. . Have the rights for it and they have shaken things up this year and we're going to find out how that he's getting on I mean while I have got a story for you about basketball because it's Christmas yes about fine wine a wow. Battling N.F.L. . I caught up with Lindsay Jones who covers the National Football League for the athletic and she recently wrote an article for the athletic about Monday Night Football Lindsey I mean you wrote an article in the athletic and about Monday Night Football and you kind of went behind the scenes with the guys then now it's Monday night football is huge in the states isn't it we've tried it over here in the U.K. With the Premier League and we try to make a big thing of it but it's nothing quite like as big as Monday night football over there just explain to me a little bit about your article you did on Monday night football but also some of the things that they're trying to do a little bit differently Yes so like you mentioned Monday Night Football is a very big deal here with the N.F.L. It's no longer the number one kind of primetime standalone game that's the come Sunday Night Football which is on a different network it's on N.B.C. But Monday Night Football just has a very very long tradition dating back decades where the broadcasters are almost as big a part of the event as the games are themselves you know some very famous people have you know have come through their you know Howard Cosell a legendary sports broadcaster in the United States you know he was there and then obviously most recently Jon Gruden the N.F.L. Coach now coaching the Oakland Raiders he was the color analyst and he was very popular not not always because he was a great analyst but because he was a really big personality so you know about 11 months ago when Jon Gruden finally decided to go back to coaching for you know for 10 years there is kind of always this will when will he go back you know will he leave the booth will he take another coaching job he finally did it last year he signed with the Raiders moved. Dr Oakland and so E.S.P.N. Decided to completely reboot the broadcasting booth for Monday night football so they changed the play by play analyst they moved over a guy named Joe tessitura who has been with the S.P.N. For a long time calling college football and boxing is kind of where his background is and then they hired 2 color analysts to be the commentators on the hair Jason Witten who retired last spring from the Dallas Cowboys and he was a long time tight and a really good guy very good player I mean probably a borderline but probably a Hall of Fame player and then and then another guy named Bulger McFarland who was not really that famous as a player but he was kind of making his name as a broadcaster he played on some very good teams he actually won 2 Super Bowl rings during his career but he was kind of always overshadowed by other defensive linemen that he played with he played the played for Jon Gruden in Tampa Bay You want to Super Bowl there while you know playing alongside guys like Warren Sapp and Jerry Brock's and John luncheon. And he had been covering he had been working as an analyst in college football so they decided to put the 3 of these guys together who all 3 of them were new and N.F.L. Broadcasting and they decided to kind of put this it's rare to have a 3 man but if Usually it's 2 guys it's the color commentator the play by play man Yes Penn decided to do the stream and and then they put Bulger McFarland down on the field he's kind of on this contraption that drive that rides along the line of scrimmage so it's been very kind of controversial it hasn't gone over really well from the public and so we yet we spend a season with a week at excuse me to kind of see what what goes on behind the scenes how they're dealing with this really kind of rough year and what may be what maybe comes next and what's going to happen in 2019 will the same crew be back moving forward that's what we we wanted to find out when we spent a weekend with them it's a really interesting thing because broadcasting or sports broadcasting itself I mean a lot happens wave. The technology that seem volved and the pictures on things are that those those things change but actually if you think back to the way that sports has been brought to us through commentry And as you say the the come a standard form of a play by play call and then a Colorado place that you know that has been the case for so many years even adding that 3rd voice surely turns it into a a more kind of discussion of our economy discussing way I'm you know you mention in your article that there are times when these 2 guys just agreeing on a certain play this being cold yeah and I think that was that's what he can wants out of this I think they want more discussion and debate they want it to sounds like you know an informed discussion like what would be happening when you're at the sports bar watching the game and you're debating what should you do and the idea was you know bigger McFarland had as a defensive background which was you know a very good off sense of player so maybe you'd have these different perspectives coming in that doesn't always hasn't always come across that way and I think that the biggest challenge they've had is. You know American football the flow of the game is different than if you were listening to you know kind of a Premier League game where you can kind of talk over that the action is kind of continuous in American football it's so structured in that there's you know there's a play that lasts you know 4 to 7 seconds and you do the play by play and there's a couple seconds of low where you have to analyze everything that happened in the play and then you move on to the next flight you're trying to you know you all these different you know schematic things where you need to be technical to explain to the viewers what happened but you also need to make it relatable that you know not everybody who's watching will understand exactly you know a cover 3 versus a Cover 2 and all the different kind of defensive schemes and all of these sorts of things so there's not a lot of time to kind of have to get out your point really quickly and when you have that extra voice there's a lot of figuring out well who's talking when are they talking over each other you . And you have such a quick amount of time to get it out and. You know and the fact that they were all new to each other and in the N.F.L. Broadcasting it's been a little awkward at times yeah I guess it sounds like one of those rare rare experiments on a very big stage putting all of these kind of new people in such a big spotlight I find it's interesting again with the e here across a lot of sports how sports broadcasters are trying new things to attract. Not always just a younger audience but trying to keep an audience that is more and more easily distracted as well I mean I find when I'm watching sports now I'll have my phone with me and I'll be following the game on Twitter as much as I am on the on the T.V. And and sometimes to be honest I could I could as well meet the T.V. Because actually my commentary I'm kind of curating my own commentary through my smartphone I guess this is a kind of a move by E.S.P.N. To try and grab that attention back and get people listening yet and honestly the social media aspect of that the fact that so many people are watching the Monday night football broadcast with a 2nd screen whether it's you know their laptop or their smartphone or tablet and comment you know kind of talking about the commentators in real time I think that is actually hurts them because you know it's interesting almost it's almost become kind of a sport of its own on Twitter to jump on you know they're waiting people are waiting for Jason Witten to say something that's incorrect to mispronounce a word to you know contradicts something he said earlier in the game and that it snowballs on top of each other and that's where the majority of the criticism has been mean there are media critics you know who work for The Boston Globe in our media critic you know at The Atlantic who have been pretty tough on the broadcast but those are sort of things that I think they can kind of survive but it's it's been this. You know Joe test or now we're talking about it's almost become a sport of its own you know to be critical of the broad. Asked in real time and that's where the bulk of the negativity has happened has been online and you know so I think you know they're not maybe getting the chance to kind of prove themselves week to week and show that they're evolving and getting better because so many people busy online are just waiting for them to mess up the Has there been any has E.S.P.N. Seen any decline in order because presumably that is the thing they are going to be looking at the end of the day because that's how they made their money Yeah absolutely and no they haven't actually so ratings were slightly down in 2017 across the board so across all of the networks and there were a lot of you know there was a lot of hand-wringing about is the N.F.L. In trouble and is it because of the the social justice protesting the national anthem What was the actual reason for their decline but I think ultimately Now what we've seen in 2018 is that ratings have been up week 14 when I wrote my story busy Monday Night Football was 8 percent for the entire season and it was winning its time slot every Monday night and it's on a cable network it's not on regular broadcast television so it's still the most watched broadcast on Monday nights of any channel and that includes the you know the standard broadcast or standard broadcast television so you know from that aspect from a business standpoint you know E.S.P.N.'s saying look it's great I mean could there audience have grown more to tell you know that potentially it could have but I think what we're seeing is that when the product is good on the field when the star players are playing when you have you know I covered it again last week I was on C.B.S. It was the highest rated game of the year because it had Tom Brady and bedrock this burger and it was the only game base it was one of only 2 games going on in its time slot and it was a very competitive kind of exciting game so what we're seeing is that while people might be complaining online about Jason Witten and burger McFarland on this broadcast they're still making money they're still getting a bigger audience than they had last year when it was when it was Jon Gruden and so I think those are the things that the year. And executives are going to look at when they decide this offseason if indeed this this crew will be back in the same format next season is a really interesting one isn't it out because you can do all of these kind of different things and try and do all of this clever stuff but at the end of the day people are cheating into watch the football and if the if you've got Ben Roethlisberger against Tom Brady in a much up of the Steelers versus the Patriots people are going to cheat in even if it was on a tiny kind of 12 inch black and white screen just to see that because they going to they're going to do is say it's the crazy thing about Le bass I'm Lindsey just finally we're kind of in the in the festive season over here in the U.K. As you guys are in the States as well. Soccer for us is a it's a it's a huge part of all of the festive season Boxing Day football New Year's Day football is just one of those things that I know a lot of soccer fans over here really look forward to going to watch as part of their festive routine for the N.F.L. American football how how much is this particular festive season a part of the N.F.L. Season because it's an interesting point the year when you're actually not that far away from the playoffs yeah it's not I would not I would say it's not a holiday tradition the big kind of holiday N.F.L. Tradition is Thanksgiving is last month where there's. 3 games kind of throughout the day on Thanksgiving they're standalone each and that's on broadcast window so Thanksgiving and football are much more synonymous together as a tradition here in the United States but yeah I mean it just kind of always happens that there are there's a game usually right before and right after Christmas the games are always this time of year on Saturdays and Sundays this year there will be there's a whole slate of games so it's not necessarily the same as a Boxing Day kind of what you guys have in the U.K. But there is excitement building because it's all building up now towards January and getting ready for the post-season thank you very much to Lindsey Jones from the athletic for the. Now time for some of this yeah God we had that yeah it was so fashionable and I thought it was important given that it's Christmas yeah that we had to talk about well yeah it's impressive that he managed to shoehorn this in a better understanding if anyone knows me my prediction for one I was going to say that I thought you would not surprise me one day if we find James Wickham on this very radio station just talking of half an hour of different types of fine wines glory days those will be I'll tell you anyway it turns out that N.B.A. Stars are getting really heavily into wine and not just buying it not just the nesting making it as well apparently as I'm going to tell you during the course of this interview with Esther Mobley use the wine critic for The San Francisco Chronicle one of the you have her on speed dial here for either one of them even takes 16 bottles of wine with him wherever he goes really absolutely brilliant anyway it's absolutely fascinating and he should have a listen to this because I think you're going to find it and at the end here's a little tip for you there are some wine tips in the as well for you in case you're running short in the Christmas period so here you go here's estimable from the San Francisco Chronicle many N.B.A. Players have been drinking fine wine for a long time and in fact I interviewed some folks who had served Shaquille O'Neil fine champagne in the 1990 S. And I spent some time with one former worst player Adonal Foyle who has been collecting wine for 20 years but it's definitely been on the rise and thanks to things like Instagram it's a lot more visible than it used to be and what we're seeing is that advertising their interests in fine wine is becoming a real form of social currency for a lot of these and be a players who are in a lot of ways undergoing a kind of cultural shift and playing. In different arenas so to speak when it comes to advertising their hobbies and for instance I interviewed a few people who said participating in fine wine culture is kind of like golf used to be it's a way of gaining entrance to a club of business people and other people that these professional athletes might want to align themselves with especially as they're looking into careers after basketball so if they were drinking the wine then well I suppose the question is all the drinking the wine or are they having it simply as an investment they're definitely drinking it and you can often see them drinking I mean Bron James has a show called The shop on H.B.O. Where he's sitting around in a barbershop with other athletes other celebrities Jon Stewart is in there and they're drinking wine I mean they're sitting in these barbershop chairs drinking really nice wine Chateau Latour we're told out of you know beautiful Burgundy bowls wine glasses so they're definitely enjoying it and you know wine I think is also being viewed as a much healthier alternative to spirits and beer and other forms of alcohol that these guys might be drinking otherwise Can we talk a little bit about Gregg Popovich because you write in your story that he is the the point of origin if you like he's the man who got the N.B.A. Into wine yeah so as I was speaking to players people in the N.B.A. All sorts of people who have knowledge of this everyone kept mentioning Gregg Popovich from the soon attorney aspires as a real point of origin so one thing that pop as he's known started doing was in stating mandatory team dinners when his team was on the road so when they were traveling to another city for a game players actually had to come to a team dinner pops a big wine guy always has been he's actually an investor in a winery in Oregon and it sounds like he actually would have players like Tony Parker who is from France to. The French wine and use that as a way to like tell his teammate something about where he came from but also just wanted to introduce these guys to fine wine and there's a kind of the Asper other coaches who worked with Popovich going to other cities you know Steve Kerr who's now the coach of the warriors David Griffin who was the general manager for the Cleveland Cavaliers they all picked up on this tradition from pop and now these mandatory team dinners are much more common place across the N.B.A. And it sounds like they're really a place where these players are enjoying mind together bonding as teammates and also competing over who can choose the coolest most under the radar newest wind level it's interesting because you hear in the U.K. You'd be quite some. Of you discovered that lots of Premier League football is for example heavily you know it's a fine won't you yeah not least because actually there was this idea that they shouldn't really will they don't often drink alcohol because it's not might be good for them but yet that doesn't seem to be the same idea through the N.B.A. . Right certainly the N.E.A. Has a much greater focus on wellness all around that it used to have we know that N.B.A. Players are doing yoga they're doing these cryo chambers they've all got personal chiropractors and wine has really evolved as being part of that culture absolutely a lot of people abstain from drinking for health reasons but a lot of people also point out the health benefits of drinking red wine it's been shown to have benefits for heart health and resveratrol. Compounds and it can potentially reverse some affects aging and so these guys maybe you will say they have a kind of selective sense of what they choose to believe about it but yeah it's seems to be part and parcel of this larger focus on health and wellness that is proliferating throughout the league as a result of that So I mean I love the fact that come out of the Anthony travels with a 6 ball to have one I mean what is the way to live isn't it traveling everywhere with a 6 ball case of one Yeah I mean I personally do it. I mean you never want to be sure do you have well you know I mean I know and most of them getting involved in business as well actually getting involved in in winemaking Yeah Dwayne Wade of the Miami Heat has a pretty ambitious WINE project that is a collaboration with the Palmer family they're well known established folks in the Napa Valley wine industry here and he started whining but with them drain weight is especially interesting because he has a really huge following in China which is market was a lot of potential not only for the N.B.A. But also for fine wines and there's a big market for Sir fine wines high end wines there so he initially actually launched his wine brand do you wait sellers with the express purpose of selling it in China he's signed to a lifetime deal with Chinese shoe brand and wine was just another way to do that we now have a pretty complicated tariff situ. China you've probably heard about that in the U.K. Michael many times I will not go and that's strongly affecting our wine exports to China and so their business model is shifting a lot but it's an interesting way that for him fine wine is is checking a couple of different boxes and China is a part of his business strategy but you know I interviewed dream on green from our local team the Golden State Warriors and he hinted that wine brands could potentially be his future steps Curry's wife I.E. Should carry and his sister have launched a wine brand don't mean Curry and yowling has an app about a wine brand and I would not be surprised if we see one rule you spoke a little bit earlier on about the father this is very much about the social standing as well I mean we're looking at a complete shift in coach because many of these plays a black which is not something that's necessarily usually associated with the fine wine industry so from both sides you see you know both for the fine wine industry must be a good thing and also for the players it must be really interesting to experience a culture that they maybe were not used to growing up. Yeah I mean the American wine industry is really eager to bring on a new generation of wine drinkers and new demographics of wine drinkers because a lot of the folks who are buying these high end Napa Valley wines are older and white and so and the opportunity to expand that to kind of move into popular culture I think is a welcome change for the wine industry I mean these players are in many ways a gateway to an entirely different mainstream audience that if they drink wine at all probably isn't drinking higher and more expensive wines from a state in the Napa Valley and so they're a gateway to I think a whole new range of customers but yeah I mean part of why I think the story about wine resonates and I argue in my piece wine is kind of the symbol it's the emblem of this larger shift that's happening and these players are really just interested in finding an entirely different Nisha in the pop culture world than they used to be I mean Andre the doll is an investor in Silicon Valley start ups you know another of our important local cultural touchstones and you would not have seen that sort of thing to this degree and with this kind of business savvy as a generation ago in the N.B.A. . Finally I saw I do have some Francisco Chronicle's one critic on the lawn should I ask you a question about the wine itself really this Christmas what will you be settling down to which great Should we be looking full well I always like to drink sparkling wine around the holidays and actually I've really been enjoying a lot of the sparkly wine coming from the south of England O'REILLY OK You're doing a pretty good job with it but a few of my favorites from California are Shawn's bird not Valley sparkling wine producer I love their wines I have sparkling wine from this small kind of hard to label called ultra Marine and a few other wines that I'm planning to serve at Christmas are again Californian but surely Zinfandel and Joseph Swan since and hour and Pino are from all over California. And Joe in case you would like some of those wines and thank you to Esther Mobley for these suggestions the Schlumberger 2009 rose A goes for around $150.00 a bottle right. Out my price range can pick up though a 2013 ultramarine blank blank for $157.00 knowledge a blank blank the blonde on the wrong bought if you want something a bit cheaper they are Turly wine cellars in from there juvenile 2015 from the Napa Valley 24 pounds 950 yeah it's kind of all right on the Josephs 124. Russian River Valley is a nice $3495.00 that is you know what that is what's that public service broadcasting how it's best Absolutely we need on the horizon I can imagine you all going out there and drinking like N.B.A. Stars so thank you very much for your support so far and 2018 news is next on 5 life on digital B.B.C. Sound Smart speaker. This is B.B.C. Radio 5 Live and have we're on the B.B.C. News on 5 Live police investigating a crash in southern Iceland which left 3 British tourists dead say humidity could be to blame for making the steel surface of a bridge slippery so you know it's a Land Cruiser carrying 7 people went through Ringling the government's facing calls to step up patrols in the English Channel after a surge in the number of migrants in small boats arriving off the Kent coast 66 people have reached in the past 3 days the partial government shutdown in America is set to continue into next week Congress has met an adjourned within minutes without reaching any agreement over the funding dispute for president transborder war with Mexico and a 16 year old boy has been injured in a stamping in north London he was attacked in Henderson just after 6 last night it's not known how badly he has been hurt there's a fall of live news dumbos B. Has the sport now Philippe Anderson scored. Nice to take a season's tally to 8 as West Ham came from behind to beat Southampton 21 its naris result makes it 12 loss 2 for Ralph Hassen Huta with Saints it moves the hammers to 9th Boston I am Ray has been charged with improper conduct for kicking a bottle at a fan in that one old role with Brighton he has until the 2nd of January to respond . To Tino says Tottenham need to be more consistent if they're to be real contenders for the Premier League title Spurs are 2nd 6 points behind Liverpool into Milan will play 2 home league games behind closed doors following the alleged racist abuse of a Napoli defender and also play a 3rd match at the San Siro without opening the curve a section of the ground elsewhere have dismissed Frankie Brown his manager Chesterfield have sacked Martin Allen algae or extended his winning run to 16 from 16 starts over the jumps in the Desert Orchid chasing Kenton Allegan to escape on the Grand National and finally remind you can he have bowled Bible Commentary of the 3rd Test between Australia and India on 5 Live Sports Extra innocent and sweet enough. TO is available to download. Everywhere always remember its history with the Newseum told the story of how influential come to members from Britain ended up on a ranch in Texas Texas it was called the rebel Charlie country unprecedented access to some of those families friends law enforcement special and I'm out out some right now know. That including. This. Which comes from a different 5 days 1st for news and the best large this is B.B.C. 5 Live. It's the morning you with Johnny and it's time to talk gaming 3 new faces and one old like join Adam for the seasonal roundtable edition of game on I mean this is the annual parts. The inescapable Christmas edition of game on joining me to ring out the old year and ring in the new Here in the opulent surroundings of Millbank one our gamey editor at fandom Tom Regan Hello Alysia judge who works for I J N Sky News News beat a slew of others and exhausted. It's not going to get the whole title again we're going to. The cool in the nest is Matt Jarvis the editor of tabletop gaming I mean . It's. Watery Kurtz there and we all know how he feels and is that New York Times best selling author James while here again at a James always a pleasure and a ritual this is we've got to think of that when we now know how we remember 2018th ladies and gentleman Tom how do you how do you remember 28 to 18 What has it been the year of it's the year that everyone went away from Red Dead Redemption say. And also already evident. Alysia could also be the year a fortnight Yeah. For good one of my money my talking topics again yeah right I think yes exactly is going to get. Ahead fast OK What about if you meant you can't pick a video game obviously because you're here doing the tabletop thing it's been the year of well I mean we start off with rising sun which was a huge thing then everyone to start playing the mind and just counting to a 100 but we didn't escape what I have because I came out of a fortnight monopolies so in the same course not everyone just rolled their eyes like great monopoly and fortnight. Family ending stuff out of you James was in 2018 be the year off to me it seems like it's been the rolling meteorite of crunch hitting everybody hard but I think you know there is there is a load of the time with their games work as you know it coming on stream and you know I pouted people like having your screens work you know which is the 1st time we've seen a union for games works and this year you're going to be working with a games company directly in that kind of role Yeah they I mean is to new to me mentally. Ninja theory yes now yes they are you suffer with crunch Have you heard I just mean we've been talking about this quite a lot of how an intimate held a it's you know they want a lot of data and as a company that are kind of you know in the public eye and when it comes to Britain we've been talking about crunch actually what that means what their opinion is they try really really hard to make a healthy work life balance that yeah it's a tough one it's often throughout the industry the real one of the one you brought up 1st Tom Ridge Dead Redemption to we had the one of the brothers saying oh you know we've been working 100 hour weeks as a kind of a badge of pride and it really sort of some people in the in the in the interview just seem to pass by so are there are 100 hour weeks here that's how to work but a lot of people example that we're like I don't want to be making this for 6 years as a lawyer how on earth does it get to the point we need 100 hours now how much of about Rush did you see your friend I'm against the idea that we needed crunch or what people are saying of course this is going to work my colleague I'm sure a good piece of mess about kind of the myth of crunching that's not necessary and need Dave into baseness trailer Totemism straightly and Deb's in other people across the industry who are saying that essentially it's poor project management and you don't really need to do it is a tough one because I feel if you're at the top level and you're writing that game or it's your baby and you want to choose to put those extra hours in because you can't sleep unless it's perfect I can kind of understand that but when it's mandatory and you're making employees do that who you know when I see their families who are just much lower down and not as invested necessarily at it I don't think that's that's right you know to have a Q A I thought the Lincoln with rock star I mean yeah I don't like this and were quite horrific mandatory weekend working in a school that's not sensible or sustainable James you written on large games for as a writer in March as a writer surprisingly did you ever see that or did they ever talk about the monster that is crunched them with the idea of hitting a deadline they were already very keen on in their lives with you you know very much so I mean as an external writer or. And I was kind of you know parachuted in the last minute to fix stuff when crunch was happening but you would walk into studios and feel immediately that there was that vibe in the air that everybody felt quite grim and quite angry and was just grinding away at the coalface I think you know the point about being poor project management here and now right on the head right there it's something that can be fixed if people take more time at the beginning of the process but this part of the industry just built on this idea that this is a job that you want to do this is a job that you'd be willing to sacrifice everything for and people are willing to do that to give up everything but it is it's abusive fundamentally there's something in the D.N.A. Of that that we really have to change that we have to work for does that come out of the fact that a lot of the going developers who is seen charge of the big companies come out of the euro where it was one man and his dog making a game and if you didn't put in massive weeks you know you got nothing at the end of it you needed to commit to that they're only looking at a legacy of the old way of making games there's some truth in that but I think we're past that now just because that's the way it was in the old days it doesn't need to be like that now so that what we think it'll be moving on well yeah I mean games are Fleet there's a business or is it yeah I mean there are so many studios these days I mean I remember being really surprised there was no watchdogs came out when the 1st games I heard every 1000 people had worked on you know 4 studios across the guy but that's pretty much commonplace now and people don't realize how many freelance people come along and just make one character model you know and I want to contributed a sheet to Spyro for example that was just what they did their agency so I think again poor project management can basically me make that happen I think if if you plan things properly Yeah there's no reason that you can't have your resources probably polled and everyone come together make a game on time you know small studios like to me like Ninja theories Alysia he's just been bought by all other They've just been bought by Microsoft haven't had to become interns all the innovation they bring in the innovation in-house on a yeah that's a big part held it was the fact they wanted Triple A quality with a small team. About 20 people made how they came up with their in technology and tried to do the job of making a mass of you know sprawling act again but it's inventing new ways to do it that requires less technology time that kind of thing you know I've just started into there and I am working my way through the studio kind of learning all the teams and learning how they do things yeah I like that and only worry about balance and staff I think Atlanta and every city here in the U.K. It's been a big topic of discussion this year and I think it's going to go through into 2019 this happened Matt in the world of tabletop gaming in the world of card games is there that kind of crunch I mean do you think that the guys making key forge were looking down the barrel of we have to be at the printers at 8 is hard to tell because compared to video games particularly there's not as much sort of insight into the board game industry a lot of it is freelance who don't the designers tend to be freelancers there are very few in-house designers fanciful actually you're behind a keyboard or one of the exceptions where they have a large group of designers on hand you hear mixed things coming out of those companies that fancy for a particular has been controversial in the past for how much is expected of people who work there but I mean that could be like any company so who's to know one thing that is interesting which we've seen in kind of the last year or 2 is bigger companies bringing more and more designers in-house so a man or company or not as they used to be called they brought in Eric Lang the designer of rising sun and Bloodrage and he's now I believe head of design or head of the design studio or something along those lines whereas before even though he was churning out these multi multi 1000000 Kickstarter games for them he was still a freelancer you know he could potentially take those games to over studios but they've now bought him on so he's making games for them so I wonder if we'll see more and more of that as these companies continue to need to churn out games and maybe we will see crunch or maybe we'll start to get more of an idea of what's expected it's a terrible word churn out here. Fills me with dread last question I think about something like a board game or a card game or C.C.D. Or something like that you don't want to get the sense they turn them out do you know I think something the players are booking at the moment particularly the hardcore crowd and they are very very critical of Kickstarter as in particular just because of the sheer number of them that happened so with me come on as one of the kind of prolific Kickstarter studios so they in the last year they must have had probably 7 or 8 different projects all of which made hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars and obviously these games are not cheap they're even more expensive than video games in most cases you're looking more at $100.00 pounds up to several 100 depending on how much plastic and cardboard and so on is included in the box and so for the average player it's just not possible to play everything that's coming out it's not like a video game when you pick one up maybe every month if you're into it you know who can afford it you know one $150.00 pounds on the latest case are there every 1st days it's just madness so actually C'mon posted a revenue loss so they didn't lose money but their revenue from kit and they said it was largely done Kickstarter had gone down year on year and a lot of people were jumping on that and wondering whether maybe that was the bubble bursting but I think it might not be that way the kickstart as they had recently weren't as pipe profiler's as rising sun and some of us and for the miniatures game they had the year before so I think they will recover you know we're seeing this has been and you mention epic and you mentioned 4 nights I think right there at the start of the year of the battle royale I mean it's simply become the defining month as and if you don't have people wondering where it is and Battlefield 5 with Jeff Yang on what about with himself it is better for the new one second world war one has been your way of going or what I want revenge without about royal What are you doing why have you done it you know I mean I was resupplies to see counterstrike jump on that bandwagon recently. Comes from the battle royal Anyway how do you make those maps any smaller you know. I mean it's definitely becoming the news on bees I think which was that the buzz word in video games or every game suddenly zombies now is always just what sells and everything let's let's push somebody to death I think to a 19 begin to see a lot more jumping on the bandwagon of that's why our I think so what a new battle Wow look at how do you train just about all round if you can to see where they have to do what they have to do in 2019 I mean on so it's rolled back and I think you know we've seen different developers parents you know could you see one of the. Jump as you say. And their version was a huge huge map they called them a blackout and they peppers that when the sound like that was that was that take on it so beloved old multiplayer maps like me turn a sign they went path of them throughout this whole kind of island that you could run between and. The secrets and then you know this is try up to these are the guys who made all of the scans like they're very good at Craft saying secrets and kind of the sub worlds beneath that games and that actually I really enjoyed back out is that as someone who's played all the black ops games it was like going home to some of those maps and you know other developers have different. Try and implement new mechanics you know having a lot more radical changes I got rather superficial changes I don't really know what we're going to see in 2019 because there is if the basic formula is 100 people jump out of a plane and kill each other until the last standing actually Well where can you go with that see radically change I'm not sure but I think will definitely see people trying to put their own spin on air until inevitably the audience gets fatigued pushed them over who the question is do you just try to open up a really. You know I got. Mine and now I want to wipe it out as a selection the question is just how much change does the old use Want do you think I'll be happy with it because you work you news and there's been several stories that come up much the Savannah. Stories that come up about addiction for Might that terrible word gets thrown around if you don't know what you have. Standing all of us know isn't. Breaking news everyone OK that happened to me years ago when I was trying to edges a dragon's Yeah by. The horns I can see you know in this the whole time and film around it was it called Mazer months as a reaction to didn't you need it from sort of a building off the top of the World Trade stats that are based on a based on not novel I think was involved with the group the Christian right Mothers Against Drunk Driving it was that there was but was it bothered about Dungeons and Dragons. I was the organizer not more than I was 5 years old next year . Is it the night show of the beast that we see panics I did Has there been a panic at all in quick card games Matt did we see that we had that with the pocket on Christ which was gosh didn't happen with the Pokemon Card Yeah you know I think so Blimey I mean I was a youngster at the time so I was probably one of the so-called victims yes he was just collecting small axes but yeah we haven't really seen I think board games and R.P.G. Isn't tabletop things like like say We went through a stage of everybody Haven Satan because they're playing D.N.D. We were a stage of people being addicted to Pokemon and all of that and now it's going back to this very kind of family friendly everyone's getting involved again and realizing that actually board games bring people together and don't make you praise the devil when Pokemon cards are bound for my promise girl yeah you know as well as or they feel about pogs Well I've been out about politics but a blaze Beyblade is next. Yeah I mean people age of consent there's a spending their plastic you want your people so you've got to be aware because unless you're gambit from a. Great just skill sure but the there is a so in the this does happen with working you work with people working for a news channel when this comes along the idea of. The new panic was very attractive to news editors Isn't it absolutely are you seeing more pushback from the journalists working on the teams need because I'm doing that job in a way 5 Live going we've been here before going to this is not me yes because I think the difference is that now what you need seems you have people who are gamers and he understand games you know we're growing up. And without using that stuff and I push back on it we you know I wrote a piece for a new. Direction that was. A professor at the University of Oxford went through his research kind of like on what he's doing around addictions but you know this is this is range since the 1900 are you guys tired I'm tired I don't exist it's very mean I started I think 1008 C. You are. Very very sadly a teenager shot himself dragons and well know that he shot himself and his mother blamed dragons and that was that was kind of the crux of it in the years since we've had so many different versions of the novel was going to be responsible for the growth of Western civilization because it was a book about nothing you have a book about nothing this is literally the end of the end of the world as we know cinema was going to film the movies we're going to be good things every time rock N roll music yeah everything you know I and we say you know it's not only been for a night thank you thank you let's check club was blamed for. South of the way yeah and that was darkened room as well like it's being you know there's been a lot of coverage of. The negative consequences of playing games so it seems and I think the conversation that's changing and what we've seen throughout many 18 and will seems to me 19 as people examine OK sure like games of course can you know deal with really difficult things but often what we see is that underlying mental health issues are more of the problem rather than it being the fault of games that make sense a symptom rather than called Yes exactly and there's that the consensus you're saying when you've been talking about addiction with people doing research they're saying yeah you know Professor. You know nearly 2 decades of research he's found no 6 evidence that gaming is bad for us but also equally you know you find out by saying no one's found that it's good you know happen is often a game as we tend to go oh you know how about if you matter how on the contrary it's about communities and you know it saved me when I had to pressure the things that he's like well to be honest we've not found that either way clearly you know we're using games as an excuse for good and so with Anna and actually you know it's just what you think is the symptom of our intent to be only cause and sorry for example video games or sleep boxes I mean obviously that's very much a now do you stand aloof boxes or your Belgian persuasion gambling because I think the gambling commission's report was kind of interpreted in a way that they want completely comfortable with and they said that we're not seeing evidence that Luke boxers or prepare a tree for gambling but people say it is part by gaming impulse do have some of the you can't can you there are the bullets and the various different contractor who wants before you get to that question who was the must get to and who's off the hook I was you know I don't know I understand neither of. You are clearly OK. It's not cancer so what I was a. Can't miss is 5 light years of Stella which engine thank you he's used to the fact. There's a lot of people that this water comes up in so little boxes then are what are they don't waste I mean they look like micro trans Miamians which was a big thing 2 years ago which kind of went away when there was a big cake against them what was the feeling on micro transom your one that your own friend I'm looking at the comments got hooked. What you see overwatch is the example basically of how to do it right you do things in terms of just cosmetic it doesn't actually change the gameplay if you want a chance to win a really awesome costume makes you have a unique slightly unique look and identity in game or sim battlefront obviously was totally different it was basically pay to win an initially they tried to change it but it was it was too late but I think the games industry is massively looking at the gambling and casino industry and learning from that well where is the role of the publisher in this to the publisher after all not for the fact that they are interested in market transactions they're interested in Secretary markets like they've done with love are going to stand with then you can't go which is called I keep cool otherwise you don't feel that there's a man in here who's also written in his long in trouble to his new card game. Which is the I like it called Room. That he doesn't like to play to win he likes playing out of seal decks we can talk about that go back up things and they but there's a couple of very good articles who about the fact the valves artifact game is actually like the apotheosis of how to win well an interesting I was a key for just kind of the same as as is a really good way to eliminate the kind of inherit gambling nature it comes with opening packs because everything is unique in. User generated algorithmically it even the descriptions they are all kinds of stuff and it's fascinating how much you know more than one pack so I knew what Florrie I should I should not yet see how it changes it has had its therefore they've had to kind of record Well they're asking people to send them back procedurally generated titles and. Of them involve particularly rude words but you definitely get an interesting combination. Of random words you learned to use like a password generator Yeah. I don't know if I can say it but I guess you can always get it by Catton but with Richard Morgan gone for Ms Wang be easily bruised that was just in the mind of the listener that's. Yes OK So if I say well you know we're going to not allow these to be played a tournament because obviously if you go well the winner of the tournament was wearing these it. Was maybe isn't the best selling point for your game that you want to be taken seriously as a tournament game but they were asking people to send decks with these names back so that then they would send them to return but it's going to do that I mean the decks are about 78 quid something like that if I had one I'd keep it and actually all my friends are going to get a stick on e Bay or you can forget exactly all game are huge fees for some crazy diamond so individual cards so you just say yes and so the next and if the deck is too powerful we get to send this out right oh like I can't remember the term and it has all sorts of weird sighting but with a thing and if it was like it ember and so they had to put. It out but the official pronunciation is just. They just do this stuff to computers we've mentioned Boyd talking too much about it at redemption too thankfully because I mity I bounced off as well you can stuff it my kind of how many hours if you know. $56.00 and I felt like Assassin's Creed or Odyssey Origin 2 I was together computing but I could do 20 minute stuff in a sense in order to I do feel I could be there for an hour and get stuff done this weird for me I kind of have my own crunch time I reviewed it so I did 100 hour week myself a rockstar picked up about 70 hours to complete it and then you know capturing video and writing the review and stuff that was already weird experience playing that much in 5 days but what I really like about that game is there's a large section of it was just isn't fun to. That's fine it's like a it's kind of like an H.B.O. Series or I use arc of Breaking Bad where there's a there's a part in the middle where you're consequences catch up to you're not going to say what happens no matter it's really dark journey where these once inviting kind of scenery and illustrates become a threat and you see people lurking behind it and you know looking around the shadows and it's really stressful in a good way to show as they interact entertainment has the power to really make you feel uncomfortable and I think that's OK games don't just have to be fun I think that's my favorite thing about redemption I'm expecting too much action sounds like James expecting too much drama this is your fault and we want to know why it's your fault in the next edition you were talking about something where you claim it's been quite dark but I've been playing Marvel Spider-Man which is positively joyful absolutely loved that you know hand on heart I'm a huge Marvel Comics now it's hard to be honest if they did it with a glove puppets I probably would anyway. But the traversal in that nailing the idea of just whipping from building to building is just beautiful and there's loads of great sort little nods and winks if you like Marvel Comics and they've kind of taken the origin story that really is about Spider-Man done in a completely different way so if you don't know anything about the characters you can still get in there enjoy it but it has that kind of same model as the Assassin's Creed games where you are putting out there is a bunch of things to do but the sense of the world is just spot on and I keep going back to it because it's just such fun to unplug to just get in there and just wander around and from building to building and I want to see the the new movie In spite of all this we can 1st thing I do want to go harm us like Right I'm going to place my. Absolute love that's been my my top pick for the year because they know me know me in video games and it was so you know platform is unlikely it's very hard on to the experience that is you know it's very few games that explore that callus and I think insomniac did an incredible job of just creating this well that you can explore on the ground but also exploring the guys did they do the one where you could ride around on the rails. Overdrive Yeah Yeah Yeahs then you know it's interesting because in games like Assassin's Creed and myself while games I don't care about collectibles that's not my gaming on the CD I can ignore it but because he said as he said the Traverse was so good in Spider-Man it never felt like a chore I was loving swinging around and I always about pack all that aside mission and you know it would feel organic and I want to do it just because the cool mechanic was so good they've done a lot of great work I think you know going with with the deep with that with a small towns you know if you're walking around the street people come over and talk to you our guy got the same vibe from nothing the 1st time I ever played G.T.A. By city when I was walking around and the world was reacting around me and I stopped and let let it happen I felt like the world the world isn't pausing for us to play out to wait for you to do something it's just moving all around you and you feel immediately like this is a living breathing world and I think The New Yorker Spider-Man definitely does a great job in giving you that sense of this is a city that's happening and you just happen to be there I think again some risk about Rwanda and I will start talking about it probably some point and I had that same moment read dead when I was again in a stressful section and I spent quite a few hours just to Guardi this quality you know Scotty that all you know and then the camera panned around and I realized I hadn't shaved and I had a beard that was downed and then I got this game is ridiculous and not only can you grow the beard down you can also go shirtless good tonight let's take away from redemption too we'll have to leave it there they will pick this up next week and we'll come back to talk. Matters and James will have more say and this is going on . For anyone else. 5 life good morning it's 4 o'clock on 5 live as we welcome local stations from across the B.B.C. This is awful night Johnny I answered the main is a cell. Calls to step up patrols in the channel following a surge in migrants and in sport Anderson scores twice as West Ham come from behind to beat Saints Remember you can listen to the show by downloading the new B.B.C. Sounds out for music radio podcasts and make sure you subscribe to the show so you don't miss the next episode. This is B.B.C. 5 Live with the B.B.C. News on 5 Live he's kept McGrath the government's being to step up patrols in the channel after a surge in the number of migrants trying to reach and reach the Kents coast in small.