The pipe eating and have a great. 92 to 95 f.m. 810 Media Week and on digital radio b.b.c. Radio Scotland's. Good morning to you the time now is 8 o'clock and you're listening to the Sunday edition of Good Morning Scotland with Bill White 1st and Isabel Fraser coming up before 9 o'clock as allegations resignations and suspensions continue at Westminster and Hollywood our panel discusses the ongoing scandal of inappropriate sexual conduct in public life and our long interviews with business woman but Person of the year and the woman who successfully took the government to court over triggering cracks it. First the b.b.c. News a senior Labor m.s.p. Has told the Sunday Mail newspaper that she was sexually assaulted by a senior male colleague at a party Monica Lennon now the party spokeswoman on inequalities said the incident happened at a Labor Party social event in 2013 before she was an m.s.p. The 1st Minister's focusing on who will replace the outgoing government minister Mark MacDonald who quit last night after admitting inappropriate behavior he held the portfolio for child care and early years he apologised to anybody he may have upset by his conduct Mr McDonald will continue as an m.s.p. For Aberdeen Dawn sighed. Reason is moot senior minister Damian Green has angrily denied a claim that Pranab graphy was fined on a computer when police raided his Westminster office 9 years ago among the other new allegations of inappropriate behavior to appear in today's papers is one from a journalist who says she told dining Street this week that So Michael Fallon once tried to kiss her he was our political correspondent in Watson the allegation in The Sunday Times that pornography was found on a computer in Damian Green's office dates from 2008 this was during a controversial inquiry into Home Office leaks which briefly led to Mr Green's arrest histories amazed the fact that deputy she wouldn't want to lose him from a cabinet and he's responded robustly to the allegation in a statement he said the story was completely and utterly untrue and that it was a disreputable political smear another allegation as America but some may call followings past behavior in the Observer newspaper the journalist generic said she informed deigning Street this week when instant in 2003 and later he resigned as defense secretary the former prime minister Gordon Brown has claimed the us government deliberately misled Britain about Saddam Hussein's weapons stockpile in the run up to the Iraq war in his newly published memoir Mr Brennan says the us had an intelligence report which suggested there was little evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction he says the u.k. Government would not have invaded the country if the White House had shared the document with dining street. A former advisor to Donald Trump has suggested the u.s. President could support Scottish independence in a future referendum but only if it makes economic sense Sebastian Gorka who worked with the White House until August told b.b.c. Scotland that the president was a pragmatist Here's our political correspondent Glen Campbell President Trump recently said independence would be a terrible idea because Scotland might lose the Open golf tournament but his former deputy assistant Sebastian Gorka said the president believes nation states prosper when they are sovereign asked if that might see him back an independent Scotland he said if it makes sense pragmatically why wouldn't he support it Dr Gorka said it would also have to make economic sense the form of Us Minister Alex Salmond said Donald Trump page his bets on independence in 2014 and without question could be persuaded to support it but he said the president would damage any progressive vision for an independent Scotland by association under the sports news now and John Burns Good morning John good morning as well these confluent caretaker manager Malcolm a car has suffered to call off from the score he selected to face the Netherlands on Thursday Celtic's league Gryphus on stocks that he's done and where collector both withdrawn through injury the south it manager Brendan Rodgers says breaking the club's own 100 year old British record of domestic matches on Beaton is incredible Santa recorded the 63rd unbeaten much for the 4 knew when as and Johnson Aberdeen are no 3 points behind the leader Celtic after they were held to a draw at Hamilton this afternoon Hosty calling Co Monaco at Murrayfield in the final Premiership much of the weekend as live coverage of that and sports and on b.b.c. Radio Scotland Edinburgh rugby head coach Richard Kaku says his side took another step in the right direction with a 37 points to 10 when over the Ospreys in the pro 14. But Gary go for Bradley Neil has earned his place in next year's European tour after finishing last time for 9th position in the final challenge to the event of the season in Oman and Steven galleries for short awfully going into the final round of the Turkish open Ireland's Cian loading as a shoot of the lead on 14 under par with John thanks for that the weather outlook the best of the days where they will be from the Central Belt southwards away from the West Coast here most will stay dry throat the whole day with plenty of weak sunshine appearing lifting temperatures today to row 9 Celsius with a light to moderate breezes across the north and the far west of Scotland though it's going to be a cloudy or start with occasional showers at b.b.c. Radio Scotland news for the time 5 and a half minutes past 8 a senior Liberal m.s.p. Has revealed that she was sexually assaulted by a senior male colleague at a party monocle and has made the claim in a Sunday newspaper Meanwhile in an unconnected incident Scotland's children's minister resigned last night over inappropriate behavior the social harassment story continues to sweep Hollywood and indeed Westminster to for more on this I'm joined by political correspondent and. Bring us up to do that and what's been happening. Yes Good morning Bill this is the latest story in a flood of allegations this morning concerning the sexual harassment allegations now monocle Annan is a rising star in Scottish Labor she spoke into the Sunday Mail to see as you point a she was sexually assaulted by a senior male colleague at a party and she's chosen to go public about the attack because she believes not enough is being done by the party to support victims them as Lennon is the most senior Labor politician to come forward with such an allegation you've heard of course the party activists begs belief said she'd been raped and urged by the party not to report it well and other activists that even if he met Sadie alleges Kelvin Hopkins the m.p. Subjected her to inappropriate behavior he denies that now misled is say she's doing one interview about this to draw a line under the incident saying she felt hearts embarrassed and disappointed by what happened and we've contacted Scottish Labor for a comment Now meanwhile in a completely unconnected incident the Children's Minister Mark MacDonald quit to Scottish Government post last night saying he was resigning over previous actions which he said were considered considered inappropriate he said his attempts to be humorous or friendly may have actually led others to feel uncomfortable of course Bill this is a blow for the 1st minister Nicholas sturgeon should now be promoting someone from the backbenches no doubt to take his place as she had ours and the deputy 1st minister had to urged mill parliamentarians to look at their behavior Mr Macdonald is one of 2 s.n.p. Members being investigated by the party over a possible misconduct the other is not parliamentarian and finally the Sunday Post also reports this morning that the s.n.p. M.s.p. Will be coffee was reported to hold it authorities after a civil servant complained about his behavior there the come on a Can Evan Valley m.s.p. In the paper denied any wrongdoing so he doesn't recognise the claims about his behavior involved so approach the s.n.p. For a comment to Ok tell us then about the Westminster related stories. Yes well this one really can really reading that leading the bulletins today about Damian Green the 1st secretary of state a former police officer has alleged that pornography was found on an office computer and gaming screens office after a raid back in 2008 that raid was after a home office leak and that's of course the Conservatives were in opposition and that's why his office was raided No Mr Greene has angrily denied the allegations he says they're completely untrue and political smears a Also today there are more allegations about former defense secretary said Michael Fallon who resigned this week of course allegations that he lunged at a journalist and investigations are also continuing by the party and to Mark Carney and Charlie Elphick the conservative m.p. Has also been suspended and there are reports be made to the police over serious allegations to this is obviously an extremely significant story it's been dogging the political establishment for some time now shows no signs of abating. It's quite incredible Bill it really is rocking Westminster I know particularly this morning too it's rocking at Holyrood as well I remember during the week one commentator who was seeing a storm is about to break and I think that truly has happened and some people were saying well this could be bigger than the expenses scandal and in fact looking at the coverage that we're getting looking at that politicians are being affected is very very significant and of course people outside the parliament the political bubble or watching those voters are watching this too and maybe just perhaps wondering what is going on perhaps no one is quite sure where this could end under current political correspondent thanks Well let's discuss this now with our panel today the columnist Leslie Riddick and Allison wrote The former Labor m.p. Tom has good morning to you all thanks very much more for coming in I am Alison when we hear this idea that the dam is birth and more and more revelations come out where do you think this all ends up and what will be the final effect but do you think we can we can see that yeah I mean these stories have bubbled up over the years but they've always been isolated incidents and no one's need to jump together to say that it's the whole culture that's rolled in the way that they did with the expenses scandal but I think after what happened in America and it was bound to happen over heat it was just a question of which institution would be at the forefront I think there's a there's a while to go before the so the noise dies down then with C.D.'s allegations come forward as they are and then people can start to see what this is what this is what we want to achieve from this you know this is so just to be how do you think we process this because already we know that there's pushback on it already some M.P.'s are saying look there has to be due process here and a presumption of innocence until proven guilty and I see some female columnist saying I don't mind the attention what's wrong with a compliment so you can see a pushback already how do you structure this. To process it appropriately and fairly lazy really. Well yes I mean people are absolutely innocent until proven guilty and that has to be remembered but I mean if you look at particularly the comments made by Jane Merrick today she came forward because she was watching the beginning of this pushback and realizing that Michael Fallon's denial of some allegations has minimizing all that business stuff it's just you know they will locker room banter kind of idea made her realize it was a pattern of which she was part and so they publish the tape begins to bring other people forward who can confirm a pattern of something happening that's just not on I'm not not on this is kind of pretty simple it's the ability to have a distinction between the personal and professional sphere and it seems that I mean actually sitting here with a copy of the Scotswoman I kind of edited gosh 27 Rather years ago in 1905 and that what was chosen to be highlighted by the Scotsman's Westminster staff was groping hassling and being patronized by men in the House of Commons Emma Nicholson who was a just moved to the Lib Dems at the time that was talking about every time she made a speech the men in the front row opposite her work and away and their hands up and die on shouting Mellons her as she spoke every time I mean when you have this kind of this is basically a kind of verbal assault on the misuse of power it stretches all the way through though 2 guys who just don't seem to realize that women are not in the workplace as eye candy we're not there as potential sexual partners were there because we can do work and that seems pretty simple to most women and most men and it's a time really for men to step up when they watch those by injuries being broken but just before really the point do you think that why this is different this time is that even things like social media. Women a platform to talk together to get together and maybe younger women aren't just willing to put up with the kind of stuff that women of my generation thought was just part and parcel of the work environment when it definitely is that I mean I was a commons research and more than 20 years ago and the most depressing thing about this is that nothing's image of genes but back then it was a case of you know people researchers talking amongst themselves you know who to watch out for you know he you should really find yourself alone with that kind of thing where it is now people are coming forward in social media they're coming to the peepers they're going to broadcast as they're feeling the need to speak out and they're feeling as though they're more protected than they would have been before Tom it's fair to say that lots of men don't behave in this way have never behaved in this way and don't approve of this behavior but what is it about political cultures I mean obviously we know that it's across all sorts of industries but what is it you think about the poll the sort of political almost social structure and with Minster the late nights the bars the drinking that seems to feed into this Peter finger on you know the late nights the bars drinking you know the Palace of Westminster is a tourist attraction. It's a place full of bars and restaurants and it's also a place of work. That the late May culture has changed just because a piece of water to choose those of the commons but but there is still this atmosphere that when you go there you know if you make a speech if you've served on a committee for a few hours you're going to have a launch you're making other speech now afternoon you do about what. You know most people drift toward the strangest part of the sports or social bar. And you know to let them hear their own relax have a drink when that happens. I think almost any what place if there's an expectation that the drinking in the socializing is part and parcel you know you don't just go home but you do 95 job you generally go to the bar but something I'm interested in is that when you talk to meal in peace they say you know we've heard the gossip we heard the innuendo we know this so what occurs to me if if that So if the rumors were were current and everybody knew about them and everyone was discussing them why did male M.P.'s or even feel female M.P.'s not approach women or even young gay men who are the subject of that gossip and say to them look do you know what I've heard this is happening is that anything I can do to help you don't think that you're alone in this if this was coded currency down there why did nobody seem to intervene and help the people who were being victimized here my problem is from my perspective in 14 years I mean the the reference to you know to to these these British M.P.'s you know making faces and making fun of women as they speak and that sort of thing that had died down I mean I knew it did happen but I had died on to a substantial period at that point from 190700 there's a vast number of new especially younger female M.P.'s coming and the West though sometimes I was in on the the benches that had died though not almost completely it was very rare to see that the behavior in the in the chamber and from a person perspective and this this get my head in the sand but I we all remember you know one or 2 individuals ministers perhaps backbenchers chairman of Select Committees who were you know Hanzi as it was kind of blithely referred to but. It didn't seem to me to be you know prevalent it didn't seem to be. Something that everybody was at but you know you go up to that male colleague and say Do you know what Rena in her hand in my presence saluted me for example you know the with a lot of socializing if you went for drinks maybe 0 to a bar at the palace and they were sometimes young researchers or journalists who were with us if any one of us I remember was an occasion where there was one particular friend who was a minister who was behaving in those lascivious way towards female journalists there was no search or we did to commiserate and we salute vests as a sort of it's going to get into trouble and he went home early. Lizzie would you are you there with gender because inequality is no so normalized across society that actually people are confused about where to draw the lines Well yes and actually I mean Tom's absolutely right that the incidence I was describing from 190-6100 look 9.2 percent of M.P.'s were women then today 32 percent are so a sin if you get you know a more normal workforce the workplace you do begin to get a little bit of a sense that women are there as workers and not just sort of exceptions but you can see that in the way that this is being discussed there's a sort of feeling I'm sure a lot of folk in the listening to this will be feeling a little bit that this is too much women talking about stuff to do with women in public on the air because there's a kind of self reinforcing thing that if women talk for even about a 3rd of the time in groups that's perceived to be to March and everyone starts feeling uncomfortable and awkward because the normal order of things is being kind of struck but lately that research includes even women start to feel uncomfortable yes that you know I meet ings women seem to be talking for longer than men and actually when you do time it out they're never talking for longer than men but if women stand up under authoritative have and have an opinion that makes men uncomfortable but also women uncomfortable suggest yes but then this. Yes You know we all live in the world we live then and point is we've all been socialized to feel the same sort of restraints and unrest and goals you only progress if you understand rules and the way to progress is actually the unwritten ones are far stronger and more important in life than the rest in ones so there's also the learning come to know that yes some people are uncomfortable when they hear women discussing this on television or in social media they say there's too much of this it's already being blown up by out of proportion yes and I mean there's even There's even a $11.00 standard was put to look at films called the best Del test which simply meant that in one scene alone in the film 2 women who were named had to speak to each other about something other than men and in 2013 half the films released start year failed including including avatar there were some surprise anyone else and what about this these ideas that are now starting to emerge of women only real way carriages or women only spaces I mean what's going on with that I certainly wouldn't back that I don't think you know the way to go here is some sort of retrenchment there has to be an advantage you know we have to start talking about that we did disagree with lasers lately in is much is I make believe in real you know if you have an independent regulator in this sense didn't you know this may not have happened to me not happen to the same degree I think you have to have clear rules which makes it you know obviously where the line is and we were talking to Baroness Helena Kennedy s.d. About this point I was on the program and she was things she would like professionalized independent regulators in as many workplaces as possible because her argument is that if women do or young gay men or whoever do approach and say this has been inappropriate someone who's professionally trained to deal with that is actually having the conversation with them and you think those structures should be put in place as a matter of urgency Absolutely it's no accident that this is happening in Hollywood and in ways Minster where powerful people or the am I. Ability to sit the real and the powerless fall victim to that So where do you think this ends up politically I mean you know there's potentially a social outcome here but the political outcome of this is support in the short and longer term during the week. Given her week 3 Zumiez government has given her Week years this could actually be the death knell if not conserved government selling out Primus up because I think its ability to space is Keller 2000 name it wasn't the Labor Party's fault it wasn't just the leader party's fault but they where holding the parcel when the music stopped they were in government and I think the reason is going to have to accept quite a lot response belt in that respect but I think on a broader more positive sense I think this will be seen as the tame when things changed and when men realized they weren't going to get away with that when you know when when they realized that bad behavior was actually going to be a reporter they were going to be held to account and I think that's actually going to be seen in the next few years as a very very positive thing there's a lot of commentary at the moment about the feminize ation of politics and power structures would produce different effects if that is the case do you think that the sort of policies we see in terms of women's autonomy and women's rights coming out of Westminster could change no simply if men are required to see women in a different light. Well again as Tom said you know some of the conditions have already changed there was huge uproar about moving the hours of Westminster to sort of a kind of family friendly hours so that was one kind of step that's become to shift if you like that's feminisation I'm sure a lot of guys would like to see their children as well so it's strange that it always seems to be that way but there's a ruthlessness that when's and public life and it's so ironic that Kevin Spacey is facing so many charges there in Hollywood Hollywood after playing that ruthless character that he did in hives of cards and winning and that the narrative in much of politics is that might is right and we if you like to go further we have a political system at Westminster and which that's entrenched by a 1st past the post system that basically leaves people unchallenged in safe seats since the 1960 s. And in some cases since the Victorian era now I'm not really conflating the mold I'm just asking if a small amount of public support Bridget results in an enormous amount of power that's partly what was behind the expenses scandal because you didn't need to worry you're never going to get voted out it gives the chief whips enormous power that in turn requires a level of ruthlessness to be able to get on that's all wrong and that's the sort of structures that need to change. Finally Holyrood in Edinburgh was supposed to changed all that with you know we're transparency more openness and yet we're seeing a sort of drip drip effect in Holyrood as well I mean are you very disappointed by the disappointed yen is not as much as you said you know it wasn't supposed to be like that but it comes down to this seemed leading into you know a new independent regulator in a major piece like Cane peas being allowed to function like small businesses and do what they warrant with new training and new expedients in doing so Ok thank you all very much indeed for that thank you notes and it is really us and wrote and told her if you know the term story 4 minutes past 8 years the sports news is John. Boss Well it's 50 years this weekend since the infamous battle of Montevideo it was the 3rd match of the 1967 and to Continental Cup contested by Celtic the champions of Europe and their South American counterparts Racing Club of Argentina tied it to or after the Home and Away might choose the sides play the 3rd deciding match in Montevideo Jim McGinley was a 6 year old Celtic fan who witnessed these games he's been recounting his memories to Jonathan Sol and about a brutal football contest remembered for all the wrong reasons. There you were 6 years old when all of us how yeah what do you remember of that time we not the 1st batch Well I've been going to was but my mom and dad had the travel business the to equate to good people to Lisbon and I was determined to go to Argentina I was determined to see Celtic become a world champion member going to Hamden and thinking that this was like no football much ever seen before in the scenes that. And it was really rough. And well. As it was so to Tim I mean to cli became a football they had become known for playing. Take. A hit with a hit so the only school I knew the one nothing we'd get the euphoria to see everything else but then less than to I don't suddenly the chant was always if that is the way that race and club are going to be Glasgow who are they going to be like and one is not he's still there when the 1st leg camp in Glasgow. Or the 2nd likely. Going to the stadium horrible artillery horrible horrible in the sense that it was no 8 Scots of one is Ali's the risk getting deprivation and shanty town a really horrible place to be and coming up to the stadium there was an atmosphere from a code which I have never seen before or since I'm pleased with machine guns riot shields trying to keep this clearly an order and then of course before we even started running some stand a bottle in a bar of a hill or here you know chick just. Saw the battle of Montevideo the 3rd an Irish the decider as it finished to all there's no way it was ladies what was the mood going into that much because. There's a certain reluctance I'm imagining by this point from remember all of the supporting Celtic because of the nature of these matches Well Celtic finds thought to be a much better game and I watch less inter-meeting team because the unit lions are normally until Argentinian until 2 were quite confident I think the fans were quite confident as well and the game itself was just ice storm action the whole thing really flashed off when Jimmy was brought there Jimmy Johnson was brought there in a nice touch of going on the other sort of treatment Oh but even before then at one point when the ball wasn't there one of the recent players took the studs rate there in the back of his leg and he went down and when he was in the ground the same player to do in the back is a long way but the game was elsewhere. And he could he could see them split none you could actually just see it you know bowler don't flash ice about it was ever going over for him and said of this well yes but the body when it was sent off and had no idea why sting sent by contraries and eventually it will come off because of a big sort of a big Zod said of me when it was Martin 6 6 6. This scored and I actually scored a good goal we join found a new chances even. But with that but with the taint we got to the end it was madness in Bedlam and some of the things are not caught or unfitted for example there is very very famous footage of those are merely the mego i told me game a walk from the bike any cakes you're my and raffle rate would a house here what is not seen is that the Celtic fines and a lot of the out of the euro go into their point when gambled that that they got to their feet as if he had scored the cheered like hell because the treatment that would be governor was monstrous and you sum up missing in one word. And if you want to view some of what went on in that game you can do so by going to the b.b.c. Sports court and website. Join me Kathy McDonald after the 10 o'clock news as the man has travelled a long way from his father's grocer's shop in Glasgow is a Cambridge educated multimillionaire businessman who's dined with the president of the United States will be telling his wife a line through his now his main focus how should the u.k. React to the threat posed by returning to Heidi's from Syria we discussed the options reportedly being considered by the government and we want to be might hear language as we meet the other opinion that the claims that Sweden he's good for you still that's all coming up between 10 and 12 noon on Sunday morning with me Kathy MacDonald here on b.b.c. Radio Scotland. I know it's half past 8 to your listeners a good morning Scott and on Sunday on b.b.c. Radio scholars there's a Bill Fraser and Bill White for it still to come before 10 we have a regular look at the Sunday papers with 2 of Scotland's leading commentators and we cross the Atlantic to look at the man being called Scotland's president as one of his former advisers and with one of his former advisers and remember the cry cost when the. Ticks drama a little too literally right now this week's long interview with the business woman Gina Miller who made legal history by successfully challenging the u.k. Government's plan to begin leaving the e.u. Without a vote in parliament Miss Miller who's just been named the most influential black person this year tells us about the personal cost of this campaign from racist insults to death threats online we talk about sexual harassment in the city's financial institutions and her latest campaign for new legal controls on newspaper comment sites but 1st given all the conflicting and confusing media kinds of who Gina Miller is I asked her to describe and define herself was my case brought me to the fore it by no means defines me I have been a campaigner for transparency scrutiny and honesty for nearly a decade now but prior to that in all my businesses everything I've done my motivation has always been that you need to stand up for what you believe is right you need to speak out when there are things that are dubious or threatening or just dishonest because we have such a short life it's actually quite simple I'm I think people complicate their motivation it actually is quite simple you should just do what's right so within that do you think you would define yourself as black as British as a mother water or what are the dorms to your core values do you think as a personality they're very different from what I look like I am a woman of color I think this whole idea of black and white who are different nationality it's just stressing the things that make us different rather than the things that make us the same and I'm far more interested in what makes us the same I'm a woman I'm a mother I'm I fought to be successful as a business woman I have sought to be ambitious I have failed many many times but it's about how I. I believe I it's how I confront those failures rather than the successes now what do you think then husband formed the sort of choices you make and how you presumably are very resilient and that is demonstrably the case that you are resilient in the face of some pretty horrific you know publicity around you but if we go right back to the beginning there in your childhood What were the experiences of childhood and the influences brought to your father as a politician as a lawyer who sort of influenced your attitudes and the choices that you know make I think being one of 5 children part of it is definitely nature rather than just nurture I think I was just born this way but I was definitely influenced by both my parents my father was very strong you know this is a young man who had the age of 14 was serving petrol and then rose to be in petrol stations and saved to educate himself and rose to be attorney general that's an extraordinary story and extraordinary influence on me in what he has achieved and how determined he was and this was a British This is an artist and so he feels he didn't he wasn't given anything he fought for everything but at the same time he did believe in responsibility and social justice and not forgetting other people and that those are very strong principles to be growing up around but my mother was also very stoic she was somebody who believed very strongly that you don't get anything for nothing and it could all be gone tomorrow so we have to be careful and be having 2 such strong personalities around you as you grow up it just becomes sort of 2nd nature that's the way you are I wonder though how much growing up in a household where your father was the attorney general that you saw law as an answer to tangled political problems. What I saw in my with my father and his friends was not just how law can come to the rescue and save people and be very dispassionate at times when emotions can overrun and people make very rash decisions I also saw that you had to be principled when you were when you rose to positions of responsibility that it was easy to be swayed by power but you had to use it responsibly you actually went on to study law but we can discuss that in a moment but in the interim you went to routine the very expensive girls only school age were you when you went there what were your experiences there so this is one of the great myths I never went to writing this is very interesting because the particular press that sided to put that around did it because they needed to paint me in a particular way and came up with a boarding school that fitted their picture of the person they wanted to paint me I went to a tiny little boarding school in Eastbourne called Moira house which was nonselective a very caring pastoral school and I loved it because not only was it very caring but also it was a school that was started by general a very long time ago who believe the girls should be everything and anything they wanted to be so I grew up at school playing rugby and cricket doing science you know we were a very eclectic coal school but a brilliant one and my parents chose very carefully because at the age of 10 to send your child away to a new country to somewhere so far away where I had never been I had never left home before that because necessity because of the political unrest in the threats against our family was a huge decision for my parents. So let's explore this idea that actually the press have reported you went to routine and also that the press have said that that's where you encountered your 1st racism so is any of this correct no none of that's right none of that is right the only you know you talk about girls you know teasing you if you speak differently if you have to ask if teasing none of that is true you decided then that you would like to study law why that decision it was always my dream in my school holidays I would go into the court back in Ghana and watch my father I would see the way he'd put on his we're going down and going to court and use words in the most extraordinary way it was always my dream to go into the law and particularly to try and become a criminal barrister but so to go and study law was veiling my dream but unfortunately I was unable to sit my final exams due to something very traumatic that happened to me and the intention was always to take a year out and go back but then life happens but you actually have the Syrian awarded an honorary doctorate of law of from your old university. Drop me it's almost it's almost 30 years to the year that I left to go back so it's a very emotional accolade for me. That's then didn't look at your life after you weren't able to sit your finals what actually happens in your life then because presumably your family are in Ghana at this time are you quite isolated or what sort of choices do you have to make as a young woman or sort of age at this time well at that time I was young 21 I The choices were were very simple my parents wanted me to go back my father was insistent that I go back and perhaps redo my finals in the Caribbean because it's the same Commonwealth as country x. Country so they have the same system of education so I could have reset or such my finals don't reset them it's not my finals in Barbados or Trinidad or one of the commonwealth countries. Or stay in the u.k. But to me having been here since I was 10 Britain was my home all my formative years were here my siblings were here I just couldn't go back this was home to me and I had to make my own way and that's what I did I discovered business and I realised that actually whilst the law has always taught it's extraordinary what it teaches you actually the study of law teaches you to disseminate information and critical thinking and analysis that holds you in good stead for the rest of your life and it has done with me but I discovered that I was actually very good at business and as well as running this successful business career when you marry and you have your 1st daughter do you want to talk about lithium is that yes I'm very happy because I think that to me is possibly one of the best my biggest battle to have won and it's the thing that really makes me resilient as an adult in that I was very ambitious in whatever way and I deliberately chose to have a child early while lots of my girlfriends were not because I thought by doing so I'd have and I wouldn't have to step off the career ladder or whatever it is what I was deciding to do. You know we could grow together and. I wouldn't have that break 2 or 3 years as I became more successful hopefully and so perfect pregnancy no problems at all. But unfortunately people people forget that in the seventy's and eighty's our n.h.s. Was in a terrible state and she was born on the night where there were no midwives there we had shortages. There was no one to deliver her so she was starved of oxygen and so I now have a beautiful 29 year old but who has special needs and possibly around sort of 7 and 8 year old sort of intelligence but is an extraordinary person and to have brought her up well to building my career and fighting against authorities who in those days wanted her to be institutionalized and family members who thought that that was the best thing I fought for her and she is who she is today because I refused to let other people tell me what she could be but was this a lonely time for you did you feel you were so voice sometimes and could have done with a lot more support than you got I felt I was I have never felt blamed other people for not supporting me the decisions I make my decisions I have choices and other people would support me in those choices but if I choose my own decisions and that is up to me and I've never felt lonely because I've been blessed to have her and she has been she has reminded me so many times have strong people can be because her empathy levels her emotional intelligence are off the scale it's extraordinary what she teaches me I'm just interested in the foot quite often you seem to be faced with adversity and you find ways round that are your you find benefits there's some people may say that must be exhausting with an exhausting way to live your life you're so are so on so many fronts my husband now calls me. A physical and mental fidget he says it's exhausting being around me. I did 2 things I think is one is I am blessed and I do think it's a blessing that I don't. Need a lot of sleep I'd like to get away with sort of 34 hours a night which means I can do an awful lot but secondly my mindset has always been even as a little girl is that there are other people who are much so much worse off than me what have I got to complain about I just have to get up and get on with it you sometimes describe your attitude to business as conscious capitalism can you expand on that and explain what you mean by that because there may be listeners today who say well achieved so much for self but she is actually no very wealthy and therefore she must have an easy life and easy choices. In my view I think one of the reasons we possibly are where we are around the world actually is because of irresponsible capitalism and my view is you need to be ambitious but if you are successful in your ambitions you have to give back to the society that's afforded you a success you have to be responsible it's not just about greed or making money it's about looking after other people on the planet I call it a triple bottom line rather than a single bottom line just driven by profit and yes I'm successful but I'm so privileged to have the ability to use my money to help others I don't need to be frivolous You know I don't use I could I suppose have private jets and all the rest of it ninety's I've made the choice not to do that I prefer to spend my money elsewhere I have spent the last decade or so fighting against what's happening in the city in the charity sector and some modern day slavery. Domestic violence wherever I have found a place to put my money to to help others that's what I think it should do let's explicitly then your true and fair campaign for more transparency in the feeling in fund management businesses what's that about and how successful has that been well after the financial crisis I was very worried that the nothing would really change and the investment in pensions industries who are there to serve their clients because we have an aging population which is a challenge we need these industries to work better so there are better outcomes because no government of any color will have enough money to fund our ageing population therefore there has to be a social side to those industries to the pensions and investment industry and I that's what I've been fighting for saying they are dishonest in the way that they display their fees they do not give people the basic right of knowing what they're buying so how can people make the best possible choices because it's not about driving down fees or making products chief. Poor poor value it's giving people information to make the best choice and if it is for example a majority of the sector in my view and it's been borne out by the recent f.c.a. Report that the industry is producing poor outcomes with high cost low performing products then there has to be a clear out there has to be more transparency my fight has brought me many critics. Many of them intellectually dishonest because they don't want to make less profit. And so I have sought to change legislation we have been successful in that from next year we fed into 3 you directives that will come in across Europe which will create significant change for the 1st time ever from January 28th consumers and investors and pension contributors will be able to see all their fees for the 1st time and I brought the up so that brings us nicely on to the very obvious link where a lot of listeners today will know you from your challenge to the triggering of Article 50 without a parliamentary vote can you talk us through the sequence of events that led you into that legal position. For the last I'm a great fan I love history and the law and parliament there are the things that I've you know I am sad enough to actually sit and read Hansard. So I have been watching not just this government previous governments and the way that they have been bypassing Parliament when I heard they were the 1st time after the referendum vote by the way I was on the reference I was on the trail sort of since the October before and having left London and going around the country I was convinced that leaves were going to win and I was appalled because I didn't feel that either side were prepared for that when and when I heard the government start talking about using the royal prerogative I knew what that meant I knew it meant that they were going to put themselves above the law and so I happened to be in the vent at my lawyers Miche gone the rare on the Monday after the referendum result not because I was a client of theirs I happened to be speaking at an event that they were hosting on why there's a lack of diversity in the city why there are so few women at the top I might have said a few controversial things. And afterwards they said I was blame them I say one of the Senior Partners approached me and said Is there anything else you're passionate about which point I just sort of I think probably spoke for the next 5 minutes nonstop about this use of the royal progressives and they just said you need to come and talk to us because in legal circles we are also concerned but we don't think we'll find litigant a client because it's so politically sensitive and that's how the ball started rolling you were the principal it again to others joined you but in this process they dropped out along the way because the heat from the public response was so intense and so on pleasant What was your experience of public responses as this progressed and your profile increased and increased in this respect. 2 things happened that I didn't expect one is I thought if I was brave enough and put my head above the parapet that other people would join me and see the sense in the case you know be it academics or business leaders or politicians who have it was. But what happened is that an element of the media started painting me in such a way ram sucking every part of my life. Allowing abuse under their articles it just unleashed such hatred which was against me not about the case because very few of those articles actually detail the case because my case was not about bricks it was about parliamentary sovereignty but that didn't fit their agenda and so they allowed that to come and I do a lot of the blame of what happened to me at the door of certain media. And then you have politicians and parliamentarians who did not stand up and say this was not acceptable both against me and against the judges in the courts. Because I was not doing anything unlawful I was asking a purely legitimate question but then the hatred started online on Facebook it was of a magnitude I didn't expect I was shocked to think that this was a country that I love and I lived in and I thought had changed didn't you want to tell us some of the things that were so some of the things that upset you most at the time you find most destructive the things I find most destructive they didn't put me off and they actually have empowered me and made me feel that I need to stand up even more and be even more solid in my voice is the fact that the 3 main things are that as a woman of color I should be grateful for being here therefore I should be quiet I have no right to speak up the 2nd is again as a woman of color I couldn't possibly be bright enough to have brought this case there must be lots of rich men behind me pulling my strings and again I will correct miss perception that there are I've been funded by lots of rich people I have not been funded by many wealthy men the things you read in the papers are just simply not true. And the 3rd is that. I could. Not this couldn't the money I have could not be made legitimately It must be because I put it plainly must have slipped my way to the top those are extraordinary assumptions for people to make. But the other that has really disturbed me is that I can get letters that a beautifully written. You know eloquent English with such vile nurse in them that the hatred has crossed educational groups regions wealth position I get even people from Linked In who send me the various vile things. It seems to be everywhere before we talk about potential controls and new controls I know you're interested on internet abuse you even have a peer of the realm saying that he would pay somebody to kill you essentially to knock you down in the car when something like that happens do you ever think well you've made it clear you don't think Ok Enough is enough I can't do this anymore and certainly your fellow litigants thought that but do your family ever say to you you know what you know you've done enough you said enough this is costing you too much and potentially you've got 2 young sons as well as Lucy and this is costing the family too much to come under that kind of pressure I have always sat and spoken to my husband and my children about what why I do what I do and my passion for doing and rigging up and the bottom line is I do what I do and they know this and they support me not because I'm fearless some people have said you know I must be fair Liz It's actually quite the opposite it's because I am full of fear I am fearful of the world that they will grow up in because my children are mixed race my husband is English but they cannot hide the color of their skin they cannot hide who they are and why should they they should I want them to grow up in the world that I grew up in in the Britain that I grew up in which was you know moving to being tolerant where I could be ambitious I do not want things to go backwards we need to remember. That security and inclusion and these are the things we must fight for and that's why I'm fighting and they would never stop me because they would they would support me I couldn't do what I do if they weren't supportive of me my children are incredibly understanding but they know I'm fighting for their future now we know you have grave concern about some of the articles written in some papers by the journalist but there is also an issue with the comments which follow these articles the newspapers will not modify or moderate these comments because then they have a legal liability if they do but in the legal sense they are publishers and they certainly disseminate these things so who what do you think would be an appropriate response to the situation you know have for an article be can be written anything can be said in the follow up comments on it and the paper say not our problem it is extraordinary because I have complained in numerous occasions to which is the regulator and I have my complaints have failed. What it has told me is that the code is not fit for purpose it does not deal with online and we need to have that code written or looked at the 2nd thing I've realised or understood through my experiences is that whilst Leveson happened the legislation that followed Leveson did not have a commencement date so that as the legislation has managed to be or the reports of managed to be flaunted So there needs to be a refocus on either rewriting and we come up with Leveson to or there is a commencement date that amended and put into the legislation because you are absolutely right online offline whatever the medium it is the message and if it is a message that is allowing the incitement of racial sexual violence then there are laws that are being broken and these must be enforced otherwise we end up in a Wild West of abuse what was your experience of these online comments the online comments on the nice war of having me killed threatening my children of me watching them you know be killed in front of me being beheaded I mean fighting other people to gang rape me and it is extraordinary these publications allowed it sometimes they'd be sort of 2 or $3000.00 of these comments beneath articles and what is really shocked me is now that I've lost the cases the files for you know we've asked to see the files from it so when I've now seen them and I didn't read many of these comments other people were doing it for me my husband in particular. And now what I've reviewed them in hind I'm just absolutely shocked that we have people in this country who think it's Ok on a public forum underneath an article online to write what they write and what did it so say was very reason for not accepting your argument well they are. It was quite interesting the last ruling which is actually on their website which was against the Daily Mail because whilst I lost they in effect criticised the code and said it was too narrow so I had every right to be upset and to feel aggrieved but they couldn't rule in my favor because the code is too narrow so even they themselves are criticising the code that is there has to be a review. She let's talk about the wider environment that you've worked in you said there was resistance to what you were doing in the finance sector and that you've spoken in the past about how difficult it can be for women to get to the top in certain industries that you worked in what do you make of the harassment investigations in Westminster and there are processes underway in Hollywood in Edinburgh to look at if there's an issue in Holyrood What do you think this tells us about why Doretta choose 2 women amongst men of power and influence this isn't Demick it's not in any particular industry doesn't surprise me it disappoints me because because I was hoping that it would be better in parliament but it's endemic of what happens when people rise to power and they use their power to bully and to to to Buz and belittle and that's what has happened is that we have example after example now of men of power abusing sexually women and men because I think there is a massive problem and I'm aware of this in the invest in the city when it comes to gay men working the city who have also been exploited and abused and often raped and have no channel for it for coming forward. It is it is a most disabling position to be in to feel to be violated and not to be able to speak up because of fear or blackmail that your career could be ended or you wouldn't be believed or people would then look at you differently it is the most appalling state of affairs and we have. To put processes in place where women and men whoever it is it's being abused can start complaining you know in an environment in which they are protected Do you think there is a tipping point know that there's a momentum behind this that it will just disappear as it seems to have done in the past when issues were raised I think we have to be very careful that we aren't grouping together fairly you know. Normal behaviors if you like with those that are totally unacceptable if you have somebody who put their arm around someone you know you can say I'm sorry but that's not appropriate stop it but putting your hands down someone's you know top trousers whatever is a whole different league I mean I myself have been you know over the years in the city I have been. Approaching me very an appropriate situations I mean I now I see somebody in the city who is still who is very very senior who once tried to invite me up to a bedroom to say that's where we would when I had my marketing agency that's where we could talk business and it would be very fruitful and my business would do very well now I have the choice to say no and I'm aware that he then made sure that other contracts didn't come my way. But that's something where I was strong enough to say no. There aren't many people who do that they would leave instead there are many many women and gay people in the city that I'm aware of who've left because they'd prefer not to be in that environment we have to change cultures and one of the things Aleutians I believe is what I call the womanizing of politics in the womanizing of business I think we need to have more women speaking up and also the culture changing within organizations for this to actually be a tipping point if you were to give advice to women perhaps particularly young women do you think it's getting quite difficult for young women in particular to find a level just to have the confidence to say I'm not happy about that or do you think there's a danger that we almost over because I legislate on this it actually interferes with normal human interaction I think that your point about legislation interfering with with the normal interaction is a problem but I thought I also think that what's changed from when I went into the city and business is that it was much more blatant So you know way it was easier to out easier to you know it's no more nuanced and that makes it more difficult for young women in particular to identify and I speak to a lot of young women I do a lot of talks and what comes to me is the fact that they are unsure of whether or not there it is sexual abuse or harassment because it is so nuanced The 2nd thing is that because there is this pressure for women to do well they don't want to appear weak there's this idea that if you speak up then you are weak or you won't be believed or it will hinder your career or your advancement so there they find themselves in a very difficult position and the 2 things I would say to young women I do say to young women is speak to other young women trying to have a network of people or a group of people you trust.