Over Britain it's 5 past to 5 past 9 among the green migrants of Vermont a Plymouth Union the Saltash and have been savin travelers since they came by stage coach in the 18th thirty's 5 past 8 in Salem Illinois where the local American Legion 1st saw the good idea of a scheme for soldiers returning from World War 2 it became the g.i. Bill of Rights and sent a great many people to university for nothing. 5 pos 7 and Denver Colorado at the Molly Brown House on Capitol Hill Denver old money looked down on the Bryan house as a sight for but that was before Molly took charge of the lifeboats on the Titanic a 56 sand might Nevada where the wind moves in a certain way over the dunes and sets up a low howling that would make you think you're weren't alone our news comes from c.b.s. . C.b.s. News on the hour I'm Jim a shot of the the House impeachment panel held another public session today c.b.s. Is Nancy Cordes Lieutenant Colonel Alex Bindman and State Department. Were both sitting in the White House Situation Room on July 25th listening as President Trump asked his Ukrainian counterpart to look into former Vice President Joe Biden without hesitation I knew that I had to report this to the White House counsel and what was your concern it was inappropriate it undermined our Ukraine policy and would undermine our national security since been who is the chief White House adviser on Ukraine said President Selenski would have taken president trumps request for a favor as a demand President Trump went after the sick and corrupt media as he put it today outraged that the news outlets were suggesting he suffered a serious medical episode that prompted that unscheduled trip to the hospital Saturday I went did a very routine just a piece of it the rest of it takes place in January I did a very routine physical visited the family physician to couple of groups but visited the family of a young soldier who was very badly injured who was in the operating room I toured the hospital for a little while I was out of their very quickly the 2 correctional guards who were supposed to be keeping close tabs on sex convict financier Jeffrey Epstein the night he committed suicide now facing federal charges w. C.b.s. Reporter Sean Adams a billionaire financier was awaiting. For allegedly running an underage sex trafficking ring his family those suspects he might have been killed because of incriminating evidence he knew about rich and powerful people his death has prompted a larger investigation of alleged systemic problems at the m.c.c. And within the Bureau of Prisons or power blackouts could be on the way for northern California due to wildfire threat but may not be as bad as 1st projected much ado about nothing that will be the reaction of a lot of people in Northern California p.g. And e. Pulling back on those much talked about planned power outages which means a lot fewer of us will be in the dark p.g. And E.'s tomorrow Sarkeesian but you've got about 181000 throughout northern and central California that's significantly different from yesterday's number of over 300000 that translates into nearly a 1000000 people who would have been in the dark Jim Taylor c.b.s. News San Francisco police in Duncan Oklahoma say it was a love triangle that prompted yesterday's shooting in a Wal-Mart parking lot that left 3 people dead a man confronting his ex-wife and another man shot and killed both of them and then turned the gun on himself on Wall Street the Dow dropping 102 the Nasdaq was up 20 s. And p. Off a point this is c.b.s. News the group world against toys doing Harmer's out with its annual list of unsafe toys they include ice cream Senad Nickelodeon slimed kids might eat that fly bargepole go Trick board the packaging shows a child using it without a helmet or other protection also on the list a realistic toy machine gun a Yeti teddy bear and the nerve alter one gun capable of firing soft darts set up to 120 feet you shoot your kids Major League Baseball wants to thin out the minors Major League Baseball is presented minor league baseball with a list of 42 teams they'd like to eliminate So we're not interested in doing that minor league baseball Jeff land says they haven't learned yet how the 42 teams are chosen however he says Major League Baseball has said facilities and location are factors when they get together here next week hope we will have a little bit of an idea a little bit of direction of what it can take to get a deal done and hopefully keep baseball and main markets as we can Jim c.b.s. News it's time for us to spend an hour now in the company of film and his guests and said Me Hello Phil yes morning to you wrote Good morning about how is the over 70 this morning on the softer news. Well it's so much better than it was 24 hours ago many Sydneysiders on Tuesday work up to this horrible toxic haze that was blanketing the city it was bushfire smoke that had blown in from fires burning in 2 national parks to the northwest of Sydney and those flames looking at the suburban fringes of Sydney and the wind had blown much of that smoke over Sydney there were health warnings for people with various medical conditions to stay indoors and it really was a very challenging time for many people going about their business Rod We know the schoolchildren were kept indoors but mercifully by the late afternoon there was a southerly wind change that has blown most of that smoke away but the fire emergency here in Australia is persisting and as you mentioned before South Australia is in the midst of a potentially catastrophic and extreme fire danger warnings today now Adelaide the city of Adelaide is tipped to reach 42 degrees Celsius today while a place called Valley that a considerable distance to the north and west of Adelaide is expecting a temperature of 48 degrees Celsius and we know that the Department of Education in South Australia is closing more than 100 schools in kindergartens as a precaution so as we'll be discussing in the back half hour of this Australia hour this is a bushfire emergency rod the likes of which Australia has rarely if ever seen before. Well we shall indeed return to that theme but for this half hour we have something else in my. Well with all the 6 tree heat many Australians when the weather is less Smokey will be heading to the beach to enjoy water temperatures here in Sydney for example road the water temperature would be hovering around 20 degrees Celsius and we're joined from the University of Newcastle just to the north of Sydney it's a couple of hours drive here in New South Wales by Dr Vincent railed Vincent is a marine ecologist at the University of Newcastle and has been doing some amazing research into how my head sharks great hammerhead sharks Australia rot has more than 170 or so species of sharks in there in the various coastal waters of this enormous country but I don't think there is any marine animal that really is so striking in the way that it looks of course hammerhead shark is extremely distinctive thanks for joining us today Vincent just give us a brief description if you can all of a hammerhead shark and why it has that very distinctive name. Sure thanks for having me so 'd great Hammerheads are a bit different from other sharks because they have that distinctive hammerhead which is the take a cool term for it is a settle for oil which means head to head wing basically and that's exactly what it acts like it's actually in the shape of of an airplane wing. Now there's a lot of hypotheses that have come up to try and explain why hammerhead sharks of volved this very unique head there's a couple possible explanations and none of them have really been disproved one of them is that it acts like a wing and helps sharks swimming through the water now you may not be aware but most sharks are actually neutrally buoyant that means that they actually sink in the water column and as a result they have to spend energy swimming through the water column 2 to stay at the same level beneath the water and it's thought that this stuff might help in that regard to help them float a little bit the other thing the other explanation is that it helps spread out all their senses on their head so sharks have a lot of very sensitive means of detecting prey on their head and having that stuff the soil kind of helps spread those out so you can have even greater. Accuracy in detecting things so even the the the nor'east which are the equivalent of nostrils are more spread out the eyes are more spread out which means you can see in almost $360.00 degrees around them the entryway of Lorentzian which can detect electrical impulses from muscle contractions are also more spread out and it's no coincidence that a lot of Hammerheads in particular the great hammerheads specialize in eating things like rays which leave in and hide in the sand and that's awful for might help them be able to detect those. And some of these some ham heads Vincent grow to 6 meat is long and almost 500 kilograms in weight they are full meta bull animals how important are they to the whole ecosystem all full of Australia's coastline Well it was around the questions that we were trying to answer with this particular study because well we have a roughly good idea of what's the cousins of grey hammerheads which are the smooth hammerheads in the scalp hammerheads we've got a pretty good idea what those sharks eat and those are what we call pelagic sharks which are sort of open ocean sharks and they eat things like fishes and squid but the great hammerhead has been more of a question mark and like you said the great hammerhead is the largest of the species the great Emirates and typically they are they reach more like 6 maybe 4 and a half to 5 metres at most of the 6 metre length is one of those stories from from fishermen that's maybe not verified by science but they are still very large animals and while we have some idea of what those smaller great hammerheads eat and in that case that overlaps somewhat with scallop here. We have very little understanding of what the large big grey hammerheads eat and there's been an external evidence over the years from observations in the wild that they raise occasionally and sharks occasionally but it hadn't been verified really what the role is was do they eat those things just kind of haphazardly when the opportunity presents itself 'd or are they actually preying on these animals on a regular basis and so using stabilized switch which works on the premise that you are what you eat. We have taken samples from large gray haired heads ranging to 4 meters in total length so sort of the upper upper extreme of the size of these animals and we tried to determine what their ecological role was by by look using these stabilized hopes and very interestingly it looks like for these larger sharks they actually eat very few fishes in squid like their cousins do but actually they specialize in eating just sharks and rays so it looks like it's perhaps one of the few species of predator that actually spends its adult life targeting. Sharks and rays its potential food sources and of course because because that makes it effectively an apex predator we know from studies globally that apex predators for all these other means of predators or sort of average predators I guess is what you could call them have a really big impact and role to play in in managing ecosystems because they they have this top down effect on the food chain which means if they suddenly disappear the food chain can become unbalanced very quickly and that can lead to a collapse of tar ecosystems so so there is a lot of so the research showed very clearly that these sharks are really important for a stroll in coastal ecosystems and the other thing that to take into account is that these are circumglobal sharks so that you find them in the Caribbean in. In the western Pacific in the eastern Pacific in the Indian oceans and so. The role of the sharks is probably quite similar in those other environments as well. Hello Dr Ro as rob him very nice to have you with us thank you. No word from from what you're saying there I mean if the top predator disappears you would have thought that that would mean there would be more of everything else isn't isn't that. What way is that destabilizing the food chain so there's actually some really good except it's a very good question there's a very good examples of what happened and and because predators and prey evolved in parallel that the ecosystems that they live in have of all to support those predator prey directions so perhaps the best example we have of the the impact that the disappearance of an apex predator would have actually comes from wolves in Yellowstone National Park in the u.s. And what happened was with the extinction the localized extinction of wolves in those parks the populations of deer exploded and deer when they're when they're lacking in food sources which is what happens when you have a very large population of her before they switched to eating bark and that caused basically trees to die because they'd they'd consume so much art that they would ring the trees and basically kill the trees and as a side effect that aside from 1st of all totally shifting the the living plants that were in that environment the population eaters which depends on the growth the streets to produce their dams it disappeared. So these are what we call trophic cascade So they're there when you have some effect from the top of the food chain that then slowly trickles down and has these these knock on effects to the entire food chain and and what was really interesting about this was not only 'd that we were able to see those those effects down the food chain for walls but when walls were reintroduced into Yellowstone the population of associated deer declined because those walls went to town because it had food everywhere but also beavers were reintroduced themselves into that environment because the trees started to recover and they also had this other food source so So 'd you're correct in saying that removing that talk down control would would would cause populations to explode but because the food web is this really intricate interaction among so many species if you have one population that explodes among those it's going to have trickle down effects that are going to dates destabilize the rest of the food chain and so what usually happens is those species that are generalists that are preyed on by that apex predator suddenly just explode and have effects by basically consuming all the available food that's in that environment and usually that population of of animals that exploded as a result of the disappearance of that predator they usually collapse as well because they basically eat all the food that's available to them and I suspect that this a is the question which is really the subject of your life's work but why than is the population of Haven't had sharks in the client. Well. It's a very known fact actually so we know what my life's work is is is trying to show the value of these already organisms for for marine ecosystems and why they're important and sadly commercial fisheries and recreational fisheries are by far the greatest threat to sharks and rains globally. There's a study that came out just recently and the last couple days actually it showed that great hammerhead populations globally had declined by about 80 percent of the one exception to the rule 'd is the North Atlantic around the Caribbean for example and the simple explanation for that is there are protected species in those environments so we know globally that overfishing is by large that the major threat to these animals the other the other compounding effects for great hammerheads is they have that really distinctive very large 1st dorsal fin which has very high value on the on the Asian markets so they're targeted for their fins and finally they're also caught quite frequently in recreational fisheries and unfortunately hammerhead sharks in general they tolerate 'd stress very poorly and that means even if if if recreational fishers follow best practices and release those great hammerhead to soon as they catch them there's a roughly a 50 to 90 percent chance that the animals going to die just as a result of the stress and so these factors kind of compound themselves and cause a lot all that villain fighting on the Lion I suppose the way that you know if the fisherman catches it they don't know if they're cautious going to to not do that if it's yeah it's fighting exactly in the sinus you know it takes it takes 15 or 20 minutes for them to pull the shark in and by the time they realize what they've caught and they really said that sharks already got into that threshold of stress level where it can't really survive fill. Just to clear one thing up Vincent Biffle wrote cancels his holiday to 2 Australia had shot far as I understand it has never been involved in a fatal shark attack e in Australia is that correct I think I think yes that's absolutely correct there's there's I think very few records if any of hammerhead sharks actually biting people and I would say that if there are records they're probably what we'd call encouraged by it's where usually there they'd be fisherman holding them up on the side of the boat and accidentally getting bit they hammer heads in general are known for beings skittish among all sharks. And and so that's why pretty much the only times that you see them diving are either in the Caribbean where they're actually a bit you added to the presence of divers and people or you have to use what are called or breathers that don't actually produce any bubbles when you dive and so there's actually very few places in the world where you can reliably see em or had sharks in the wild because they are so skittish and so I think that correlates very well with the fact that pretty much no one has gotten bit by these sharks so even though they are big impressive and and you know they have a pretty big grin. I would not in the least consider them to be a potential potentially dangerous species. They certainly looked upon done they when you see photos and videos of them they are caught on they as parts of culling programmes around Australia would be fair to say Vince in the drum lines that a hoax can account for some of those how had fatalities that you mentioned in terms of folding populations. Absolutely particularly in Queensland so in New South Wales we have we have drum lines but there are what we call smart drum lines and so the survival rates of sharks that are released from those are very high that the intention for those is to not kill we animals in Queensland the smart that the drum lines are designed to catch and kill and unfortunately because of the shape of the heads of these sharks that's we've discussed before they're also quite prone to getting in tangled in the shark and that that are better up and down the coast and these are absolutely responsible for part of the decline at least for this species . Simply because there are so many nets those nets have been deployed and the drumline sorry I've been deployed since the fifty's and across the years that has resulted in their in a certain. Part at least responsibility in part of the decline of the sharks that we've seen but the thing to remember is that even in stray we have some pretty significant shark fisheries in particular in Queensland that catch the sharks in in pretty high numbers and this is even in areas that are overlapping with the Great Barrier Reef So the idea that the Great Barrier parties. Is a totally state area for sharks and other creatures it is a bit false there are there are quite a few areas around the park where fishing is allowed and in the sharks are are caught quite heavily and the thing to remember is that great Hammerheads are also one of the longer lives species of shark and they live upwards of 40 years of age so. It would take quite a long time for the sharks to recover from any fishing because they they are so long lived and slow to reproduce like many shark species not all but certainly they are they do fall. Of sharks that are potentially threatened by fishing activities. And in a country like Australia Vincent when we think of the conservation status of these animals I think in New South Wales then if they're listed as vulnerable to increase the protection around the country one would imagine that they'd be a fairly hit a large amount of obstacles along the way not not most from commercial fishing enterprises who as you say in some parts of the country rely on catching these types of of shocks. Well it's I think I think on it or it's on a state level it's it's doable The problem is the like like many federal governments there's a lot of overlap and sort of territory between different states and the federal protection so white sharks for example were quite successful quite successfully protected because the protection of the species was on the federal level. Unfortunately great hammerhead sharks I would be surprised if they were federally protected and that would be the most effective way to protect that species The problem is until there is a greater scrutiny particular in Queensland fisheries for these the sharks or the fisheries that target the Sharks I don't see how they can be protected effectively in New South Wales the vulnerable status is part partially driven by the fact that we only see those these great hammerheads pretty occasionally in our waters and it's looking like that's partially what it is fisheries but also the fact that these great hammerheads tend to only be present in the waters during the summer periods. And sort of migrate down during that time. Which means that basically the population the entire population of sharks that we seen in South Wales is effectively a Queensland population and that that kind of highlights one of the problems when working with these highly migratory species is that managing the population on a on a on the state or country level sometimes needs to go beyond state or international borders and we see this problem a lot with species like great hammerhead sharks that do migrate is that you know one state or country might be interested in preserving the population of that shark or other animal and an associated country nearby may not and so that single populations doing because regardless of what that other countries doing the other country is is targeting that shark. And so I think I don't know it's a very complicated issue in a stroller to enforce these sorts of protections the other thing is you know usually the sharks are process someone that seed so that the major identifier of the species is usually there their head their Cephalus oil that's that's the easiest way to tell them apart and if you remove that head it see that all the sudden identifying those species are right and is is then more complicated that there is a push in fisheries globally to move towards having digital records of catches as the basically just having cameras on the boats so that the. Species caught can be identified from there but that is meeting quite a bit of resin resistance from commercial fishers for pretty obvious reasons. So I'd It's a very complicated issue because even if interracial fisheries get controlled and the Hammerheads are protected from a commercial fisheries of will you still have the Shark Net problem which is I don't think is going to go. Anytime Soon Sadly even though there is there has been some progress in the last year in reducing the numbers of baby drummers. But there is there's always also the recreational fisheries which which do have some impacts it's a very complicated problem across multiple jurisdictions multiple fisheries and I don't see it being solved very easily even if there are federal protections put in place because those shark ads for example they say they are exempt from those criteria so they'd still be there. Dr Vincent Roe from the University of Newcastle thank you so much for being our guest today my pleasure. It's just after half past 2. 100 you're told b.b.c. Sounds smart Spiegelman this is b.b.c. Radio 5 Live the newscaster Richard Foster Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbin of both face questions on breaks into the n.h.s. And trust and integrity during a head to head t.v. Debate the pm insisted he'd get his easy to depart a deal passed by the commons in January the Labor leader promised that the people would have the final say on Briggs it the Lib Dems are publishing their manifesto later it's going to include a promise to recruit $20000.00 more teachers in England and an extra $10000000000.00 pounds a year for schools if they form a government they say that staying in the e.u. Will help to pay for their plans $25.00 stowaways have been found in a refrigerated container on a ferry travelling to the u.k. They were discovered by the crew the ship then returned to port in Iraq a dam and the president of the Oxford Union has resigned it follows a row over a partially sighted person who was fortunate forcibly removed from a debate there last month Brenda McGrath has since apologized as the new Chevy I mean a still has the sport taught in the sacked manager it see a bunch of Dino and Joes a Marino is reportedly in talks to replace him budgeting the leaves after 5 years at the club football correspondent John Murray has more on a new chapter for Spurs it might just be that merits your party you know turns out to be a difficult act to follow all the insinuation is that Tottenham want to move to the next level i.e. Winning trophies the one thing that Patino wasn't able to deliver in his otherwise successful tenure so it may be they feel shows a Marine you know is that man or the also currently available Max Alegria a serial title winner in Italy with eventis However they should be aware how Party Tino was frustrated by the parsimonious ways of the Spurs chairman Daniel Levy by the standards of top 6 Premier League clubs as Tottenham finance the new stadium and would surely demand a spending of money on the squad that Potter Tino could only have dreamed of wells of automatically qualified for. 20 twentieth's a beating hungry to nail in Cardiff both goals came from Adam Ramsay and his 1st start for the side this campaign manager Ryan Giggs says it's the highlight of his career so it's. You know one of the greats not from a life simple as a lot of the lot as a player but it's different different as my injury you know the pressure that you're helpless really on much day and you know when you used to obviously never got nervous as a player as a manager you nervous 247 Scotland closed their qualifying campaign with a 31 win over Kazakstan they can try to make the finals through a playoff in March after they win the nation's League group they'll find out who they'll face on Friday Northern Ireland will be a way to Bosnia Herzegovina in their 1st playoff much Michael O'Neill side lost their dead rubber to Germany $61.00 goes to 3 Com and just either say the half time was about $100.00 Plutus after you know aspects of our plan for staff are really good we had the defendant claims really deep which is natural scored a great goal early in the g.m. But when you're 31 Daryn of the back really tough game against home on Saturday night I was just too much for us in the end in tennis Sunday Murray says he needs to be careful not to overdo it at the Davis Cup with the potential for Great Britain to play 5 times as many days he has a real doubt doubles as well as singles bread mitts that would be ideal for him after his hip surgery if I was playing doubles you know the same day as some of the singles match in Antwerp I would have you know really struggled the following day so you know we just need to be mindful of that and think a little bit late kind of long term in this event not just looking at the 1st day like like I said it could potentially 5 days in a row who do well I think that's why dollars Well the British team gets started in the morning against the Netherlands from 10 on 5 Live Sports Extra and heavyweight Dillion White says his next fight will take place on December the 7th with a strong possibility of being on the undercard of Anthony Joshua's rematch against Andy Ruiz in Saudi Arabia that's the latest from b.b.c. Sport in the seaside slice and election 20 Knowing see. On b.b.c. Radio 5 live down about up and down the country today we're in Southampton we are not doing as well as a lot of other developed economies I think it's important to get diversity within parliament the it will take to the funding it is quite complicated it is not quite as straightforward as the numbers that do appear it is been a really really think financial squeeze the essential coverage of election swings you know you see join me I dream channels Friday morning the time live from the region the build up to the election right here on the 5 life. This is b.b.c. Radio 5 Live on the b.b.c. Sounds a whole night when drug shop right where we said we were going to talk about these terrible Bush farce. That that's what we're going to do not. Pass it back to film our sort and set me yes thanks Rod switch on but talk to John Bates Johnnie's the research director at the bushfire a natural hazards Co-operative Research Center here in Australia this is an organization role that really does investigate very thorough lead the whole issue of bushfires in a very bushfire prone country thanks for joining us today John when you survey the bushfire emergency here in eastern Australia dozens of fires still burning in your opinion how severe are these bushfires in eastern Australia compared to previous years the fires that we're seeing in that field. They are severe and I think the thing that's different process them I mean they're carrying much of the season in the places that they're at any fact in Queensland now experiencing quiet more severe than they've seen in the past but these are not 5 to the most even a stray you think a fire prone country and we have had bad choice before but I think you're coming back to my point that what we're seeing is the earliest up to the 'd fire and some parts of the strike you're burning that really haven't had serious fires before. And what do you think that is. Also potentially driving the fire in this trailer and in fact the drive of the fire in forested country across the world is lack of moisture so we've got the rainfall we've got drought we've got like moisture in the soil if you're whining around. Branches fall down tree the weather is hot and it's windy and under those conditions if I start and that that's exactly what we think you know it's part of the strategies that are on fire at the moment it was interesting within a day or 2 of the New South Wales bushfire emergency about 10 days ago I think if memory serves me correctly John there was 17 emergency fire warning seen in the state of New South Wales that was unprecedented within a couple of days of that emergency the fires became political There were politicians of various persuasions discussing the impacts of climate change on the prime minister and some senior government ministers criticised local council leaders for linking the bushfires in their areas to global warming how do you see this debate and the impact of a warming drawing climate on the world's driest inhabited continent and the impact on bushfires. There's no doubt that if the climate is warming and drawing in and what we look when we look at the information that's out there international supplied by the Bureau of Meteorology the temperatures are running at about one degree about the long term average and so in an environment that was already in a constant that was dry and exposed to fire if it is hot and dry which is what we are seeing at the moment and there are significant parts to strengthen that are in prolonged periods of drought that the fire risk will go up so I think the message from from Austin where I researched it is that climate change by itself does not cause for fires caused by a whole range of other things but we're saying with with the increase in pain average temperature is just that the conditions that have 5 or 5 studying and continuing to do what we say right now. John how do you do it it's Rod here and we're so pleased to have you I know we've we've got to let you go in about 5 minutes time but I find obviously needs few. You know there's always a lot of talk in California and places like that about cutting back on the gross you know and making it less easy for the fire to take hold How do how do you you know people in a place with a lot of you know green growth like like says this jail you actually view that. There's a lot of work that's done in what we call effectively managing the landscape and there is when we look at it and what the landscape is like we are a bet this the fuel so thought we worry about the animals we're about to plant so the land management agencies in Australia balancing all of those things because they're trying to come up with a solution and indeed in South Australia is a good example that there are a lot of wineries in South Australian if they get smoked across the vineyards at the wrong time to the gripes get the steam code so uptight and not able to be used to produce well and so I mean to insult the process it's not a simple process to go through but I think that you know one of the fundamentals is that the fuel reduction burning that we do here the tide has the leaf litter and that's the shrubs and the things that have died and would otherwise be this thing that flies you when they start is that the that sort of approach to managing the landscape will stop small flies from going but this won't suffice as we've seen in recent times the ones in Queensland Usef wild particulate them I mean very severe flies at a catastrophic level and then the flies that have been showing extreme fire behavior so they're running through and being driven by embers they can travel many many kilometers into the forward of the front of the thought and the travelling through the crowns of the trace up through the canopy at the top and no matter if you would auction gooding at the ground level which is the standard approach will stop these things and then the dilemma is that we face that we can manage fuel to a certain degree but then we have to rely on other many other measures and that includes things like land use planning. Getting people to keep cleaning keep their properties cleaning keep things that a flammable away from their properties and in dating a stranger if we do have full as that image in sea level that is an indicator that the fire agencies do not believe I can control that fire and the message that that comes clearly from our research is that if it gets to that point the only safe place for you to be not any We need that fire and so that is why the preference for the emergency services and the research which would support that is that you should leave. Your property not trying to stand it because if you look at what's happening that the hate from the eyes flies it's the he's milking Al-Ameen you know you bodies are not as not as tough as well I mean even if it's that hard the best place to be is as far away from it as you can be. It's melting aluminum In other words if you put off what you hope is going to be a fireproof roof is going to melt that's certainly a possibility and you know one of the things we we talk very much to to the audiences that we speak to that having planes fly and what what happens if a fire comes in you need to practice it and rehearse it and what what we see what we hear is that people don't always imagine that I might be injured that time out of the how to cope with the hate that they might be bombarded with images things will change and so I start off with the plane I think I can defend my property but very soon it gets to a position where they're actually fighting to save a life for themselves so you know fire is an incredibly dangerous thing and good decision making is really important and none of us make good decisions when we're in fear of loss when you would use trust and and so on and what about the wildlife I mean again I think about the still Yano the one of the catastrophic warnings is for a place called Congo Island which is a real sort of a wildlife site once atthis is the wildlife to do. That the protection of all obviously huge problem because it's it's not because they thought typically we will pop up in places we don't know they're going to stay until they are there is not a plan that I'm aware of to actually go in and get was Lafayette many though is that fast enough kangaroos and would fit into that category can generally Skype the fall as we've got had a lot of footage on television this trial year of of koalas you know one of the or iconic animals in the country die or at particular risk when flies come through because it is moving at the pace that we have. With the speed that they've got with the temperatures that are at the many of these animals are not able to escape and that is a problem well you know it's so important to be able to talk to you if you have any more time would love to keep your eye on for a minute it's totally up to you little kid going to 5 minutes if you'd like. Ok well in that case I'll talk about the focus I'm sure is going to Porton question to us when we think of bushfires across the country John there would be sounds of bushfires across Australia each and every year how most of them started. Their stuff from a variety of things and ones that we think of people who like them so these often that say there are people that are like them by accident them up using some machinery or cutting equipment excellently stuff that we have thought is it stopped from cigarette butts and we have fires that stuff from from lightning strikes and we have fought fires that stop from the electricity network when we have failures and stocking from electricity facilities and one of things that people I guess need to understand too is when we have extreme flies and when they get quite large we have the formation the in the way the 'd systems in those fires start to enter into into play interact with the way that and create a thunderstorm cloud which technical terms is a part cumulonimbus qualities of one was very big trying to storm clouds they generated by the energy in the fire interacting with the way the system and now produce dry lightning so there's storm clouds it has wind it has lightning so potentially start new fires and the wind will propagate the public like the existing fly so once the Flies get up to that extreme end it does become very very dangerous but there are many ways that 5 stop some of them a natural thing and the such fire has been a natural part of this continent for many many many years. Remember a very serious bush fires in New South Wales in the Blue Mountains in I think it was 2013 in a place road called windmill a they lost about 200 homes I think in an afternoon and we've been back over the years to see how that community is responding it's interesting John when you think of a bushfire hit area like when Milli certain people go back there's an air of defiance that's where they've always lived and they adhere to the new rules and regulations that you and other organizations bring in to try to make people safe but other people will never go back what your experience of of why people decide to rebuild in bushfire prone areas and those people who simply turn away and walk away. I think the answer to that he's in Pa there are text attachment to it I think and the degree and extent to which they've been exposed to trauma as a result of the Flies if I were a pot off if I'd lost somebody in a fire if they've lost property in a fire if that being found themselves being on eyeball to sleep being in an area that is surrounded by fire and they suddenly we we was always doing an interview earlier this week and someone rang up the thing in the exposed to the Black Saturday fires in 2001 in Victoria and they started to tear up and it was still affecting them only she's on we just past 10 years from that anniversary so I think you know it's the impact of of what people are exposed to and had I deal with that is something we know is that people who deal with those things in different ways right across the Saudi from all shocks all forms of shock control not but there are some people that go through such a torrid experience for themselves that they really can't come back there and yet others say well that's a kite. And we don't we don't know what the drive is for those at the moment but he's people who can manage with a rat and all. And have prolonged flock logical challenges have a potential to move back there and I think they did plenty of room for more research to read that as the reason and psychological health and well being because everybody was flooding the flies at the moment. And just the word on a well that the volunteers many of the the faces you see on the t.v. News of people literally going into hand to hang combat on the ground fighting these fires in New South Wales John most of those people will be butchers bakers an n.t. Teaches they are volunteers on. Welfare and we have some of their research that do that as well it is the people from autocratic community that do that and they do a fabulous job you know what we're doing and we've got projects looking at. What they want to look like going forward because if we do it as a stranger it's going to them I would have more choice and more flies at the same time across the country will need access to a large number of people that are competent and concisely go in and fight the fires well Dr John Bates research director of the bushfire Research Center we're incredibly pleased that we were able to talk to you I know you're going to be so busy thank you very much indeed thanks a lot and thanks to you well for all you talk about the human impact of this I think our next guest is incredibly well positioned to be able to talk to us about that yes he is search area and Sarah Shaughnessy Rod she is the director of mental health an integrated care at the meet north coast local health districts here in New South Wales this is very much that region around been at the at the center of some of these terrible fires that have affected east in Australia and when you think of the bushfire menace not only do these fires cools destruction they cause misery as well and Sarah thanks very much for joining us today when we think of the impact on mental health and anxiety and fear what really strikes you about the impact of these fires. Right and so going to gay from mid north coast Local Health District going to get a is there ever a gentle greeting and welcoming and I'm pleased that I could be here with you to discuss what has been in the incredible is the station on their communities here in the beautiful New South Wales mid north coast right from the coastline and to a hunter lanes it has been just significantly to the stated by bushfire tricks across our lanes and our properties I was so interested in listening to what your previous speaker Dr John Bates was saying if anything he see it resonates it with the experience he'd hear from many of our communities and families so many of their own staff whose own houses. Were destroyed in the fire tricks were actually those volunteers that were up fighting the fires and saving the houses in smaller communities both in the Hunter lane here at the middle coast and it's a credit to our stuff and our communities is we've still got tricks of lanes that have been and as well as we're trying to go into a process of recovery for some of their communities when we think of those communities Sara essentially being terrorized by the fire safe to say that even those people who aren't directly affected in terms of they don't have loved ones who've lost their lives lost their properties or have been personally affected it's safe to say that the bushfires create this ripple of anxiety and fear that spread deep into a community. Oh look and I can say that we have food many stories of a c. And c. Industries and his equally are huge amazing stories of resiliency and kid and love across a community at communities a strong so they were quick to bite quick to support and we've got open of what we call of it you ation seem to across many of their. Communities across the mid north coast and I'm just going to name a few of them because you know they they like to hear and a knowledge meant you know brought through from pork McCoury Keep see them back and he'd scoff. With places like Dora go into mix and Belle engine and places like bearable these are really distressed communities I think you don't enjoy one bites talked about that these were already drought affected communities these are communities that have significant socio economic disadvantage because of the rural the diversity but it's being amazing to say have communities have sport support themselves as well as mental health stuff that I would with the every day we're going extra as to be able to support those communities we have these great Wicca's called Rural adversity mental health support which is going to made it play into those communities to be able to support listen and hear people's stories and sometimes that's what been made they need to know that there's a way of connecting and understanding what has been a devastating it seemed that can like seems to them by actually are you able to have a conversation about it and know they it it's bit by social services coming in with all those extra supports around support around has and support for it and health care support round ensuring that they can be connected. The loved ones in make sure that beer hall of communities have good information around what what might be the next move the fiery not what will that meaning ever will fly assumes in Australia and particularly in the mid north coast needs a coming days ssion for certainly have supported what we've seen in health and our communities and you know that's still up here supporting those that astri sed serve a fraud here you talk up here and love you know the people are showing. I'm sick of course but some of our devastated communities and parts of Yorkshire and obvious are you know after normal flooding. Very many kind of gifts and so on have come to them and I know the truly grateful for everybody's care that's must be happening with you to. On look and 8 it's amazing they social media many of them have already said See it up and you know response places where people can connote donate both gifts of time so many of see it look I'm a plumber look what I can look what I can do to be of to support I'm a builder in this many actually offered food and in provisions or childcare but I tell you one of the most amazing things I heard you talk about animal lost people have been adopting some of Aaron degeneracy animals into the your own homes we've had people opening up the a bit to the people's horses and dogs show grounds a very traditional us Ozzie kind of thing where we have our shows I think you have them over the attorney show grounds were open and we had immediately horse pics we had people were able to know if I could put their animals and they would be safe. I'm sorry to hear about your floods as well I actually had family if it didn't buy them so a call out to my English relatives and family and you're right it disasters the communities can come in a variety of ways can make the kind of the one of the stresses I think must be the you know even for people who have lived in these communities all their lives this is of a different far that's what we're getting from all of us and it's. I live in a place called Coffs Harbor in the mid north coast I have these wonderful neighbors who told me that born and bred there and if any of us a little thing like it and realize in those stories like that recent night in each round their community I will I will say that it is there is the the bit that we need to be able to quit their communities on that and faked it times very challenging things appear in their communities but strength as a now being together and how we face that to give them and they also who John Bates talk about all that stuff we're a very good community and as soon as we knew that there was this nice collation about the potential for bushfires people were at the all the gases in their houses were right clear in a bit of the land lay and round the houses making sure there was a water supply picking up the case so whilst they his being significant loss of life and we have distressed about that homes in those smaller communities have been burned. Through into some of the social friends around the school like schools or you know local community Erie a civil suit this is a long time that we're going to be we can with communities to get into recovery and in until they can feel more assured they. Have a perspective on what they need to do every day to not that is trailer and particularly the mid north coast so a great place to live with something like this can happen but it doesn't happen every day this isn't a catastrophic event that we are working through to give a. She was very moving to hear that Phil is a real challenge for federal government too isn't it because somebody has got to find the money to to give all the. Good to be required yes the rebuilding effort rolled will be enormous not only have about 6 people lost their lives but hundreds of homes have been destroyed on top of that you have infrastructure such as roads bridges fences a very expensive enterprise for farming communities and residents to bounce back from so this is a continuing emergency across much of eastern Australia but as we've been discussing with Sarah and John Bates This is a recovery that will last not months but years you'd have to say. Thank you so much from the. Director mental health and to great of care for the New South Wales Government and particularly the coast of New so. Much. Please. Anyone at this. Rate. At 3 o'clock. Want to know when Wales want to buy think you're at 20. 5 my. Critics say it's in the ne shares have dominated the 1st t.v. Debate of the election campaign between Boris Johnson and Jeremy cool been the conservatives have accused the Labor leader of refusing to say his own position on leaving the u s.