This is the B.B.C. Radio 5 Live it's one of talking 5 live as we welcome local radio stations from across the B.B.C. This is. An attaboy the main news on 5 Live the former charts their excuses the governments are trying to push through a were no jailbreak said and in sports to concede forwarding to our schools the trash into the Champions League Listen to this program by downloading the B.B.C. Sound that the music radio broadcasts to make sure that you subscribe to the program so you don't miss the next episode. This is B.B.C. 5. Live. The former chancellor Philip Hammond is accusing the government of trying to force through a no deal Breck sits by making a set of negotiating demands Brussels will never agree to in the times he says a no deal departure from the E.U. Would break up the U.K. Political correspondent is Tom Barton he really doesn't pull any punches describing Boris Johnson's negotiating stance as a wrecking warm designed to force Britain out on no deal terms but says it is a travesty of the truth to pretend that leave voters backed an idea and he also suggests that he might not shy away from voting against the government saying that parliament will make its voice heard Downing Street says as chancellor Mr Hammond did all he could to blank blank say it's on to my negotiations. A post-mortem is jus to be carried out later on the body of Nora choir and the London teenager who went missing while on holiday with her family in Malaysia more than a week ago hundreds of people were involved in the search for the 15 year old who had learning difficulties. Police remain at Hong Kong's international airport after scuffles with protesters staging a sit in disrupted flights for a 2nd day the demonstrators had used barricades to stop officers from entering the UN human rights chief. In Hong Kong to exercise restraint off the accusations of police brutality Steve Tsongas director of the China Institute at so ask University and inherent tension between Hong Kong maintaining his wages and China. Hong Kong thing here really is the Hong Kong special ministry to government to try to strike a balance between what the Chinese government wants and what the people of Hong Kong want officials at the U.S. Justice Department say the warden of the New York prison where the financier Jeffrey Epstein died has been moved to other G.T.A.'s to other offices had been sent on leave missed Epstein a convicted paedophile was awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges he was found hanging in his cell on Saturday 2 major organizations in the United States have counseled planned appearances by the Spanish opera singer Placido Domingo after he was accused of sexual misconduct by 9 female performers the Philadelphia Orchestra and the sound Francisco Opera have withdrawn invitations to the singer Mr Domingo says he believes the relationships were consensual. Passengers will find out today whether season ticket prices will be raised the number of journeys using season tickets has dropped from 712000000 in 2015 to 16 to 600. The 5000000 lost real campaign great feature believes prices could go up by around 3 percent Bruce Williamson is from the group if you are in a position where your spending sizes are patterns for your commute which you know many people are then our 1st 3 percent on top of that might be as much as $100.00 quid under 50 quid more on top of a season ticket and Labor says it wants to prevents universities from offering places based on predicted greats rather than an actual results it says the current system is deeply unfair particularly to students from poorer backgrounds universities say the changes would be complicated Jonathan has this bill Neil Lennon says a Celtic side have only themselves to blame after crashing out of the Champions League at the qualifying stage the Scottish champions forced their 2nd leg $43.00 at home to clues over many a $54.00 overall when steam go into your police pull offs also into the playoffs and Linfield after a $53.00 aggregate victory over of Montenegro in their qualifier in Belfast but it's a good night for many of the championship teams in the A.F.L. Cup Middlesbrough and Charlton lost on penalties to Crewe in forest green rovers of league to suspect if we Huddersfield also out losing at home to Lincoln City for a screen while the going to face Premier League Bournemouth and run to win can still Ward is a home tie against Everton all of last night's results on the 2nd try and draw on the B.B.C. Sport website and place in few He's been warned he has everything to lose by his next opponent or to have a lean feud he will fight this week in Las Vegas next month as he moves ever closer to a much anticipated Re much with the B.B.C. Heavyweight champion Deonte Wilder this is B.B.C. Radio 5 Live on digital B.B.C. Sound Smart speaker under the weather and dry conditions tonight with spells expected from most some patchy fog and mist may develop across the country while some outbreaks of rain will drift in over the southwest some persistent rain which may be locally heavy and foundry. Eastwards across much most of the country on Wednesday while Northern England will remain knowledge and dry with bright spots for a time the East Fife life this is the most famous celebration of the assonance time in the world and all this week from one I'll be live at the Edinburgh Festival see how often I will be joined by some of the biggest names in comedy in the dozens of new acts hoping to make a name for themselves the biggest collection of the show in the world and what's happened in college is just lovely and if I am going to be making my late night fringe stand up full comedy set its debut week doing comedy or law I've. Seen the sounds final. 3 should a from one on B.B.C. Radio 5 life. This is a night of 5 Live I'm Dawson added by coming up in this out of the programme in a moment we'll hear what John Bercow said when he was up in Edinburgh yesterday does seem as if he's drawing the battle lines now in this tug of war for breaks in between the prime minister am FAR them and John Bercow saying that he will fight any attempt to shut down the Commons also the world waits with bated breath after a 2nd consecutive day of massive antigovernment protests at home Kong International Airport How Long Will Beijing allow this challenge to its authority to continue and how much force of a prepared to use Reagan to be speaking to the man who would soon know he's the author of How China's leaders think and also a host of closer to China really interested in finding out the president of China things and the journalist who uncovered the London Kings Cross facial recognition camera story tells me how she got the scoop and how the nose on your previous ear being challenged by private landowners in what you might regard as public spaces more of that later on 1st speaker of the House John burka. Has vowed to fight any closure of parliament with every bone in his body he also said that M.P.'s can stop Britain leaving without a deal at the end of October and refuted any suggestion that he would stand down as speaker his comments were made to an audience of 200 people of the Edinburgh Festival his comments made on the front page of The Telegraph as reported by Christopher the chief political correspondent of the paper who joined me earlier and my 1st question to Christopher was what did John Bercow say or significance about bricks the big thing about John Burke is yet spoken out about anything to do with practices became prominent and that was a point at which the government pivoted towards a no deal Bracks it given what burkas policy history itself yes had before you but remain although he insists that is not informed his in the chair he defends parliament and. So anything he says about BRACKS It is News and lo and behold at the end he said he said exhausted gushing forth by his views Albrecht's it he told that in a strong audience of which I was one that the only thing I feel strongly about is that the House of Commons must have its way this is in relation to M.P.'s being suspended not sitting drawing it during practice to get Britain out over the heads he said don't want to happen or no deal basis it carried on is an attempt to circumvent or bypass all goals that they need to close down Parliament that is anathema to me and I will fight with everybody in my body to stop that happening he went on Finally we cannot have a situation which Palmer to shut down we are right democratic society and Paul that will be heard and nobody is going to get away as far as I'm concerned with stopping that's happening so there we go he made it quite clear way sounds on public being Perot's one final thing as he is it was the very end of the hour in 10 minutes applause evidence of shit and things. A woman about screams can parliament stop no deal Breck's it and he said I'm sorry Sally going to continue said she shot of the same question I get all of that stuff or No Deal Brecht's it and you said yes I said the best lines are drawn then battle royal coming your way this August this program is vital is probably will be ahead of the news because you're working the night you see what they pose as they come in is going to extraordinary I mean it really is if you believe we have you know 3 prongs of the way this country is run that you disagree the executive that's a government and that is the job which is part of it you've got government parliament about to go into some kind of battle together which is going to be extraordinary but I think and crumbs I don't know who's going to win I think the government might but it might be messy Of course in his position as speaker Mr Bercow is obliged to be neutral isn't he and when you said earlier on yes he spoke you very much about Briggs's because yes he tried to read the fine line that if he's if he's Mrs goes and has a stick about brakes on her car window that becomes a controversial issue so he's had to navigate himself through the minefield of bricks it for the last few years why yes somebody to speak now. Well I was part of the original revealing of his remaining tendencies that's my story it's the Daily Telegraph I uncovered a You Tube video of a kind of a Q. And A he had done with and students at many university think the chamber carries he's meant to be neutral throughout all of his public and private behavior so that the key was meant to say nothing about what he does and how he voted there are a strict impartiality rules in return he gets a very nice pension he gets a good wage or gets a good flat in the House of Commons you know he gets all the other perks. He did seem to play go across it's way should be he said I can with a coach if you want it back in February 2007 so about 8 months after the vote he said Personally I vote to remain I thought it's better to stay in the European in the not party for economic reasons being part of a trade book a part of the world the power blocs so he didn't make them quite make quite clear way sits on bricks and that's why ever since then all the prep the team is have been eyeing up all of his comments and the way behaves in Poland allowing things to be met and what are they shouldn't be depressed and back in January this year whenever he says things they see through a prism this giant know he's he's got his thumb on the scales that's they think it's not true of course Burke I would say he's biased as he did today he said I'm biased in favor of them and that's my only bias if there is one he's biased in favor of parliament against the executive that's his position but as you said that 2017 quote cause a lot of controversy what's going on I don't know if he has been responsible really tonight to what he said you know Deborah has there been and what you are likely to follow as a result. Heaney what he was doing because we we found I phoned ahead and got hold of the fonts and the beginning they said were journalists please ask the question let the questions come from the audience and I was I happy to go along with that America as I was a privileged showing in parliament so that people ask questions so he knew journalists whether. He repeated one of the quotes over the sharing of the slots or cheering him up his Oh Lord yes audience I would say of late forty's early fifty's it was not a young audience it was 330 afternoon. And Bressay was there was a young Simpson age audience it was actually a kind of older audience there yet skull this brought the remaining place in terms of the referendum 2016 so here it was a most friends if that's the case. Account a current account I mean just looking ahead to now Chris what we've never been have before this is uncharted territory we know that we have a prime minister who's determined come hell or high water. Come what may you have many quotes to defer to Prague maybe even try to invent but he determined that we leave in October 31st and yet we have a speaker of the House of Commons who manages the Parliamentary business there's no forgetting that. The key date the compass looking at is the temblor nights because if you remember refer members back in July to. The government put through some legislation at Northern Ireland which is meant to sit there in case the executives reformed over there definitely to be NO NO ministration in development ration northern for about 2 years now and attach that Dominic Grieve attached an amendment to say the government must report back every 4 weeks or so with an update on how its efforts are to restore the storm of government because that happens. Just in his government has to be Jews report to Parliament a poll must be sitting also temper the force an October the 5th and the date in the vendor because he got these these dates the poet must be sitting it means that part doesn't can't just suspend parliament and we stumble out into a new bread world Oct 31st the big look at right now is September the 9th because I'm at the airport until Christmas you publish on September 4th and 5 days later must be a vote in parliament and it could be that something is attached to that some secret thing we don't know about you made a point John Bercow and what Today Erskin May which is the rule book that governs parliament is a series of precedents and decisions in the past by the speaker and that's all it is and he said that you know things can change so I can the speak can make rulings and things which can change things be and he said quite pointedly because things that happened before it needn't happen again and because the guy in the chair sets the rules of parliament he's like you know he can do what he likes read the end here I note I'm pretty sure I don't know for sure I think I'll be having his team back in speeches house going through our skin made to see what the options are to give M.P.'s a vote on a deal Bret's in a course at that point. It may not happen at all in terms of leaving October 31st and then maybe into election terrace in the fam. Interesting Times Christopher out there who's the chief political correspondent of The Telegraph now the international news at least from a British perspective is dominated by what's going on in Hong Kong the international airport saw chaotic scenes for a 2nd consecutive day on shoes days cause a riot police arrive shortly before midnight local time after thousands of demonstrators again flooded the terminal buildings during the day flight departures were brought to a standstill amid scuffles a B.B.C. Correspondent at the airport said that what looked like a potentially ugly operation to clear the terminal didn't happen and many protesters just melted away as they did on Monday but speaking to the B.B.C. The Democratic lawmaker Dead Ted Huey said unless the government agreed to the protesters demands the threat of confrontation we don't erode this is not done at because the government is not stepping any step backward and I would say 78 percent of the general public is in support of the protests they want war freedom it want to be a threat and any more by Beijing. And deprived of their basic rights and so if the government insists giving no response level of force used by both sides well escalate and I can expect more injury and even casualty Robert Lawrence Kiran is a long term advisor to China's leaders and multinational corporations is also the author of How China's leaders think and a host of closer to China rabbit. Is China's leader president viewing these increasing volatile protests in Hong Kong. I don't not good evening from New York I got back from China few days ago and it was interesting change in tune for several months there was almost no coverage in the Chinese press and then suddenly it became very serious or it is a very serious situation and what we see is a tension between several of the critical goods that are important to China China's leadership on the one hand is stability which is needed for economic development and rule of law which is essential for social development which China has been promoting dramatically and on the other side is the One Country 2 Systems a principle that has been sacrosanct and Hong Kong and China eventual we would like to apply to Taiwan which is a very important part of the Chinese rejuvenation political structure see how the tension between the S.P. Cost the One Country 2 Systems principle we have the one Congo government totally in charge and and with no intervention by Beijing so the way I put it is this is that Beijing will make the absolute minimum interventions necessary absolutely minimum but still not allow 3 red lines any one of 3 red lines to be crossed one is any movement towards independence or Kweisi independence 2nd is on conquering used as a base to undermine China's political system and 3rd is relentless chaos which would undermine. Kannan me and bring bring a halt to on cons. The help of the of the mainland that it's a reform and opening up on Congress now part of what's called the greater the Quandong Hong Kong but greater Bay Area coordinated development. Zone which has $1.00 trillion dollars G.D.P. As 12 percent of China's G.D.P. a Poor country it would be that just just off the top 10 in the world and it's the engine for which China looks to reform its economy so how come it's critical to that economic engine so you have this tension between the 2 and so far China is restraining and allowing the one Congo went on Konkona East to do all the do all the work but you see the rhetoric up from China is escalating and it's getting to the point yesterday they used the word terrorism for RINGBACK the 1st time which is an ominous word that some of the protesters are terrorists you've seen this escalation really over the last week and so you know we're watching hour by hour to see what happens. To prevent use of wood terrorism as they did you see yesterday was that Yeah exactly it's a it's a ratcheting up of the rhetoric but you know China is not fooling around once again it has the high principle of this one country 2 systems and so it will do everything it can to support the local government and my guess is that they're ready encouraging the police to become more aggressive which is that a court decision in Hong Kong which allowed them to injunction. The police to forcibly remove the protesters if this were happening you know in New York of a quality airport it already throw I mean what would what are the local government the police do here I mean so it it's RINGBACK on its surface it is very disruptive to the day revives the people. But yet there are issues that are resonating with a good part of the population so RINGBACK the hunk on people themselves have their own internal tension so we have tensions on both sides and we hope it doesn't degrade degenerate into. You know what people talk about is the fog of war where you know incidents happen and they're misinterpreted on both sides and so it's a volatile situation I look at those 3 red lines that you mentioned and it's 70 interpretation it's open to interpretation whether the protest amounted to a coup. Handed from. Exactly and this is this is a critical point I mean the protesters themselves there are very few of the protesters who are actually saying that they're saying they they they want concessions in terms of what the protestors. Something been jailed they want them released how they characterize the protesters they want the extradition bill which was the initial cause of this the police the proximal cause there are deeper causes of course that go back they want that of ferment of Lee withdraw and it's sort of been this net nether land that it's not being pursued and it's dad in kind of weasel words that they say that is not. 100 percent sure that it's debt so they want it dead in the many calling for the. Resignation of Carrie Lam the C.E.O. Chief executive of Hong Kong and that's probably. Some of those are are an anathema to Beijing because the feeling is that given to an end to violence and protests and now even the word terrorism if you're giving into that you're encouraging that so that's a traditional approach to the government's take to terrorism if you give into kidnapping and you pay ransoms that you're just encouraging more of the same. There is that concern right now Beijing is very strongly supporting the current government. But some people say some sort of a modest concession by the by the government would allow this to ratchet down. Clearly some of the protests. Steers would like Beijing to intervene militarily because then that would sort of be a Rubicon that is crossed that will kind of put the whole question into uncertainty but I don't think that's anywhere near the majority I think the majority want to live their lives in the economic. Comfort of one con traditionally being one of the best places in the world to do business RINGBACK it's always been number one or number 2 in the world and people benefit from that and want to continue betting better for that but they do many do want their freedoms protected over the long term and they've seen seen certain erosions of that and then this extradition bill sort of was the catalyst that brought all this to the to the fore but the violence is undermining actually some of the some of the. Demands or some of the sympathy that the protesters have because everybody is making unpleasantly affected by it yeah again the 70 interpretation is that whether Hong Kong is being used as a base to undermine the while you are nice bridge consistent sure I think that's a that's a very valid point there is certainly increasing rhetoric within China you see it on social media not just what not just the government controlled media that people believe that to be the case and they believe that American officials CIA agents local consulate people are stirring the the people up and you know for almost every charge there is some justification but there are many different factors that are going on here and. I think it's over you have to stretch credulity pretty far to say that this is caused by the CIA. But nonetheless that that that mean if you will is circulating in China and nationalism is on the rise nationals on the on the wrong. It's all over the world which is a very troubling fact there in China certainly not immune and I think it's safe to say that what's been happening at the internationally approved gun owners couple of days is really is chaos you know I just wonder what the because all these things that opens interpretation I wonder what the trigger would be in deciding that angle of this is no longer tolerable. I think that's the big question. I think I'd like to frame it in the other way around what would it take on the other end to give some sort of face saving. Mechanism to the government and offer some kind of concessions and a cooling down period for everyone so I think I think there are there are if we can ask both sets of questions I think that would that would help us at least to. Have a framework for understanding what's happening I think there are some kinds of concessions that the majority of the people would accept I think it's probably short of Kerry lamb resigning I think there are some things that could be done something sad maybe some of the people arrested released on an amnesty that for most most of the people they would be satisfied that nothing will satisfy a group of people I don't know how big the group is but it's not just a handful I mean it's it's a lot of people nothing will do that they want to cause the chaos because they're looking to see if that can have some sort of a and ultimate triggering point catalyzing some. Independence in one way or another from the problem of how that will not happen China will not let that happen though either of China could could sustain their position if they would allow how to split off in any any way so try is very chary to do anything close to that now on the other on the other side what would it take to make the final trigger obviously if there's some you know very violent clash. Ash that weeping people Dad I think I think another trick would be if the police for example refused to. To carry out was orders from the government to have some sort of a removal so if they if the police look like they're defecting so to speak I think I could be a trigger you know what we like not to think about bad triggers we like to think about the good triggers but you know wisdom tells us we better do both to what extent does the the events of 30 years ago tenements coed inform how Beijing will approach was going on in Hong Kong today because you know the protests is as be real now they did connect their protests to that because this the the uprising a what if you want to call it in Hong Kong was predicated was it not on the anniversary of of the 10 I mean square. Protests 30 years ago June the 4th. I wonder whether that plays on the minds of President Xi and his his colleagues whether that is the kind of whether it's a line not to cross or whether it's something that you know informs the decision that they're they're going to meet now. I think would be a mistake to make an analogy too closely to the June 4th 1809 I'm sure there are many people in the protest group who do do that. I think that there are so many differences between what pagong is and what that event was that was a. Spontaneous event of students. RINGBACK Of a died and that. We just were just dealing with the kind of the local things at the time how Congo is much more complicated if you think about it in terms of the economy in terms of China's economy and China's whole political relation the fact what's helpful to do maybe to do it quickly is to describe kind of why on Congress so important to China and actually 5 reasons to economic and 3 political number one economic reasons is the way companies have done business in China with you know completely. Independent judiciary and legal system that people companies would have confidence in that's actually less important today with the rise of pay of RINGBACK Shanghai Shenzhen other cities in China still important but not as big important I mention as these ones on Hong Kong account greater Bay Area and this integration plan which is needed by China to to reform its And I'm a consumer condom a transformative time to make it more modern make it more high quality so it's exceedingly important economically for that reason politically I mentioned the One Country 2 Systems principle is sacrosanct China wants to apply it eventually to Taiwan so they don't want to violate down to absolute. One Country 2 Systems It doesn't make sense oh well isn't it sometimes politics you say things that don't make sense in order to bridge gaps that seem unbridgeable that's the brilliance of politics I wish we had some people like that you could do it. With threats that I don't seem to see it from the side of the of. You know. You you have an issue and you have. Absolute gap between the people and then you can figure out how you can gap it when that when the U.S. Spy plane was shot down over China and China said it was spying on us that was international waters and there's a 99 in 2001 you know then sure they can to some agreement and they were slightly different wording in the Chinese law in the Chinese translation in English translation but it was it was diplomacy they got it out and they put the think behind us with their inconsistency sure as well there was. But it got it done and I think that the One Country 2 Systems is that there is a clever idea to bridge what seems to be an unbridgeable gap and how you would target that in ready the interpretation as you were saying earlier is exactly right I mean you do that it's complicated by the other political things I think we need to I just want to get on the table as they are important is that the 2nd political reason is that Hong Kong does represent the reclamation of China's historical integrity and dignity after its so-called century of humiliation and oppression at the hands of you know thank you U.K. British Empire and other Western powers that eventually Japan consume belies the. Return to try is grander and the final reason is China's image in the world which is really important to trying to China governments and managers and so all of these these reasons to economic free political are in in the pot and so it's much more complicated today than it was in 1990 when China was wasn't involved in the world at all it had an almost no serious economic participation today China's come but is the leading trading partner to virtually every country on earth not every but oh most every country and is deeply involved and so all of these in into interdependent factors are there today which I've never been before so that you know you need you know the wisdom of Solomon here. Robert from what you say better off the we stay out. Concentrate on broaching. Problems of our road and Robert thank you very much. Thank you Robert Lawrence. Advisor to China's leaders a multinational corporations also the author of How China's leaders think and host of Cosa to China let's get the 5 headlines now his job. On digital B.B.C. Sense and on various ways B.B.C. Radio 5 Live the former chancellor Philip Hammond says a new deal breaks it would be a betrayal of the 2016 referendum in the times he accuses the Gulf bent of trying to force it through by making a set of negotiating to mounds Brussels would never recreate it. Missed you to take place on the body of the British teenager Nora quadrant the body of the 15 year old was discovered more than a week ago more than a week sorry of the she went missing from the lazy and holiday resorts police offices are continuing to guard Hong Kong Airport after clashes with protesters on the 2nd day of anti-government demonstrations that the UN's human rights chief is urging new forty's to exercise restraints and Labor wants to stop even vast he's offering places based on predicted grades it says the current system is deeply unfair and students should only be allowed to apply when they've had their exam results University say the change would prove difficult Jonathan has the sports Celtic will not play Champions League football this season the Scottish champions are right after losing their 2nd leg for drink qualifier to clues over the mania it was one or go into last night's much in Glasgow but Neil Lennon's side find themselves 21 behind or not to get one half time they appear to have turned around in the 2nd half thanks to goals and James Forrest. Clues to the Ivy League again only for vine Christie to put Celtic 32 in front with 14 minutes to plea to a goal from the visitors though ended Celtic's and manager Neil Lennon's Champions League dreams for another season. Will begin to stop crosses you know you've got to get your head on things you've got to close people Dannon like we scored and then we wanted to switch off and control the game and even at the start of the game where possible we had to slow the temple we needed that single question really and you never constable there was a threat. I mean it's. For free on the night $54.00 overall Celtic drop into the Europa League playoffs also into the playoffs and Linfield after a 53 hour to get victory over. In the a qualifier in Belfast not a good night for several of the championship teams in. Action Middlesbrough and. Charlton lost on penalties to crew and forest green rovers of leaked to respect of Lee hottest field also after losing at home to Lincoln City one nil no problem for leads to the beat Graham Alexander's leap to soften city female lead to step up from what we're used to loss here and then you know we're playing a top jump ship thing that went so close to the Premier League you know so you know it is. Always thought that the the gap between the 2 clubs is as massive bottle the gap on the pitch will not break but when you get enough on a surge you know you've got top quality players taking opportunities to fish stalk and Rome to Lincoln's award is a home tie against Everton for screen will also face Premier League opposition in Bournemouth the field draw on all of last night's results on the B.B.C. Sport website. Manchester City have avoided a transfer ban despite admitting to breach in rules relating to the international transfer and signing of undelete 100 players city have instead been fined 315000 pounds by Fifa and the money on his playing partner through to the last 16 of the Cincinnati Masters doubles the former world number one was playing just 24 hours after his 1st singles much in 7 months felt pretty good today I was a little bit tired I felt a bit drained but more sort of like mentally rose and physically and once I got to the match start. I thought Fine so that those those positive saying British number one K. 11 lost his singles much in straight sets to world number 8 Daniel Medvedev and Jason feud he will take an unbeaten suite in Las Vegas on September 14th as he moves ever closer to a much anticipated rematch with the B.B.C. Heavyweight champion do you want to. Schools in the last. Seconds it's all over this. Was. Through. The series of floor space in the part of you would you. Say this starts today live from the. Rebound really and every week it was 5 to 5 lifeforce extra and keep up to date with the C.M.'s download I subscribe using the B.B.C. Sound. This is B.B.C. Radio 5 available on the B.B.C. Sound. Bite. This is a story that we brought you yesterday but now we've got the person behind the story so sweet something we like to do when up all night as I'm sure you know we're used to security cameras on streets and in shops but how do you feel about being observed by facial recognition technology while London's King's Cross area is now the place where the. Or is that are in place under data protection laws firms have to provide clear evidence that there's a need to record and to use people's images the local council said it was unaware that the system was in place in a statement the developer of the area Argent said it use cameras in the interests of public safety and liken the area to other public spaces where Matthew meets a major is European technology correspondent for the F.T. The Financial Times she broke the story when we spoke to her earlier and she told me what cards of places across the Kings Cross area this is them covered just to preface this the company odds and. Property Development for the Kings Cross area gave me very little information all they did was that my very direct question of do that use facial recognition or not so old or really know about it publicly is that the area ACOA $67.00 acres and that includes. Roads and parts of King's Cross travesties by regular citizens tourists it includes office buildings like Google its headquarters it in Central said Cotton is college it schools and a whole range of restaurants and shops a boutique So the security system is set up around this entire area so it's not just internal to shops or buildings but also X. Down also on the streets and on the roads in on the King's Cross estate we don't know how many of them there are because they wouldn't confirm to me but since I broke the story Big Brother will went up that just take a look and they found cameras some of the cameras just on the streets around King's Cross that they thought had facial recognition capability but the security guards that had been ordered to take down the names of anybody who went. The area and report back I don't think they go very far either. And this is rueful is it that they own that land in which the cameras are running including the probably thousands Yeah they own the land which means they're in charge of installing security on and then they're the data controllers as it was which means they can decide what sort of data they collect including offices but where it's totally lawful or not is. I can't say for sure all I know is that the I.C.A.O. Reaches the into a big congressional office the regulator reporting that you Kate that. After Data protection they have said that they're looking into this sort of public private collection of biometric data which includes faces and so we don't really need. Whether this will be found to be lawful or not but we can only assume that at the moment. The company at least themselves believe that. All kind of finishing in normal circumstances would be required to install facial recognition cameras in public. Right so facial recognition involves obviously the collection of off faces and that's considered on the G.D.P. Which is the European data protection regulation that's considered sensitive personal data it's one of the protected forms of data and really there are kind of to prove what ways in which this sort of data can be used and collected one is you have to get the explicit consent of the people who data you're recording which would mean if say if that's what Kings Cross is reliable they would have to get every single person's permission who ever goes to King's Cross in order to record their faces but would this be very feasible. Since they didn't tell anybody they were doing it they definitely don't have anybody's explicit consent but another. Way or kind of legal basis for them to do this is if they can prove that they have a reasonable. Explanation or a reasonable use for this and if they can actually prove that they're protecting people by collecting F.A. Status so if they can prove that it's for our good for our own security that they're allowed to deploy these facial recognition cameras is that how the police for example get around the permissions that are needed because you remember a few months ago they unveiled some facial recognition cameras caught a lot of resistance on the street rarely How different is that the police is using with the use of a private company like that is the. GROSS Right so obviously the police have a different mandate clearly they are part of government and the entire job is to protect the public so that their reason for using it is to solve crime to scale up the solving of crimes quickly obviously there's been a lot of cuts and. He said the technology they feel is a way to help them and to skate up the walk that they're doing in a more cost effective way. So that's why they've been trialing it but you know it's different to what Kings Cross is doing because the police have you know the map police on the South Wales Police has actually told the public but they're trying this out they've had several up to was at the sites of the trials for that type trials many different parts of London for example during Conoco they've had truck Stratford in Leicester Square so from different parts of the city and they've been observing that including from Big Brother Watch and all the civil society activists who cries they should research as antibody can go along really and observe what we're doing and of course the more sort of regulation that because they haven't the mayor to answer to. There is a big public discussion about whether we want the police to be scanning the general public to look for criminals whereas when it comes to these private companies they haven't disclosed they doing it so nobody would have an opinion on at have a go at anybody there's really no public debate about it so I think in many ways that's more sinister than what's going on with the police use of it which of course they could be misused but at least there's a big debate in a discussion going on any idea what happens to the data that's collected no idea in the case of Kings Cross their roofs again data protection laws say there are those about how long they can keep the state and usually in cases where with the police for example death scanning innocent people they tend to discard the data immediately if there are no matches to a known criminal so it's only when your face matches a face that they're already looking for interesting and that the data should be saved. If if you can't be matched to anybody in that police Watchlist and they would just delete the data and it's. Now this is also true of private companies I've spoken to a company called Face watch they provide facial recognition software to high street retailers for example who want security in that store they claim also that they instantly discovered at Soto's that don't botch their list. We would hope that that's what happened in the case of King's Cross but as I said we've had other journalists since that have been asking many questions about what happens to the dative people like you and me probably been to X. Cross but haven't received any response as is in any question as you know that you can even hint when you said look the police use this to identify criminals the store is facial recognition to identify I'm presuming shoplift is. What do the people the unknown is of Kings Cross uses full well they claim that they use it for public security looking for well this is the thing the really important question is who is on their watch list because either gave a watch list from the police so they've set tryst with the police or they've just come up with their own Watchlist and there's really. No transparency about how that watch list has been created maybe it's a history of people that they've had shoplifting locally or criminals around the area but there's no oversight of who goes on that watchlist you know tomorrow it could be me you know so I just as absolutely no transparency on who they're trying to match people to and that's kind of I think the biggest question mark. And they would do they just there are 70 cases there where. Clearly you wouldn't know because they will you know full of. Questions that how widespread is this amongst private landlords and how widespread is the use do you know how widespread the use of facial recognition cameras is so it's it's definitely growing I've been following this now for quite a few months and trying to get a sense of where and how this is being rolled out. For example face watch as I mentioned it's based on an embankment facial recognition company they've they're working with budget the convenience store today and they say that they're going to be in at least 5 or 600 different locations over the next few months and they're also in talks with the hotel chains and the stadia stadia that event spaces they've even child in a prison and that at least 2 of the companies that spoken to said that they're working with casinos and looked at other convenience stores there's one company called Hero tea which is rolling out for facial recognition at supermarket major supermarket retailer possibly like Tesco isn't saying 3 and they have these cameras at self checkout to estimate your age so if you're buying any items that required a check like alcohol or cigarettes usually you know at checkout it would be red and you'd have to wait for a possum to come over and cut on the locket but that technology would scan your face and would basically determine if you were over $25.00 and if it so that you were then you could just scan through and leave so it's supposed to speed up the whole process so you know this is not a nice technology this is being adopted by mainstream retailer supermarkets casino and now apparently large swathes of public. Space by private with as well as I forget nightclubs as well because if your name is on the list you won't gain Well exactly and this is true of casinos that follow the actually using it rather than not just for security but to let Chris Sutton V.I.P. Who they want to provide special treatment. So that those multiple different uses and with Canary Wharf which was also what we reported in our story if you look into this out across 97 acre area and. As far as the difference between those spaces is they clearly private spaces you know you're entering somebodies housing if you like or office or workplace where is it's different isn't it when you're walking along the road is in fact I know this area of Kings Cross there's no big sign to tell you hang on this isn't public this isn't a public right of way this is private property I mean there may be signs Don't get me wrong but I'm not saying it's not immediately apparent is that when you go to Canary Wharf you know it's not immediately apparent that this is private land here well the issues around that then the use of. Surveillance cameras essentially facial recognition cameras when it is a. Public. Lisa public recognizes space is being open as it were right yeah I think that's really important question and this is something I actually learned while reporting the story because I or I don't report on property you know I even didn't really realize that there were these huge an area is as we call them public spaces because you know we can actually control in some cases whether we enter the spaces around it's not always a choice of for example I might walk in which case I have to go to King's Cross every day or if canary Wolf rolls this out I might walk daily marrow or I might walk for his B. C. Or any of these places you know it's not really my choice it's part of my walk that I have to go that if I go to school there or go to Central Saint Martins again so I think it's really. Great area because this is something even when I spoke to the company that owns King's Cross you know they said. As you know where private landlords. You know were allowed to do this I found that to be quite uncomfortable because you don't always choose to walk into that space that it surprise you and face so I think this is a big sort of hole in the law and this is now something that I'm seeing that and peas and. Activists starting to talk about as you know to elucidate the sort of and on pick the issues here even if these are private spaces and by private companies they're traversed by people who are that not because they want to be but often because they have to be ordered realize that they're in a private space and that you know the law needs to make clear that what these companies can and can't do with those people's data so I think it's just about civil the moment as more and more parts of London start to be bought out by private companies. And they call it you know I don't think really they should be allowed to just have that own vote was that a separate to all local council out for example. So I think that from thing that's going to be debated over the coming months and years it says Cooper mentioned that the European technology correspondent for The Financial Times is catch up with headlines stateside now with Melissa Galbraith from USA Today Melissa what in US terms is a fast track deportation I say it's one of the stories in your paper yes it used to be that. Undocumented immigrants in the United States you know it it took some time. For people to be deported. But now under a new law passed by President Trump. People can be arrested detained and then you know shipped out in a matter of you know hours. Which is how as. Yeah I mean you know maybe a day but it's much faster than you know the we come back for a hearing and things that used to be. Such if they still have the opportunity to go through due process before they are ships out within hours not so much but the administration would say you know this this is the due process they're here illegally and therefore have no rights. You know to anything. If someone claims they're here seeking asylum that should put you know kind of the brakes on the process the immigration officials should then you know be like OK well we'll investigate but you know sometimes that doesn't always happen where they ship. Usually where they're from originally Mexico for other parts of Central America. Mostly OK Interesting that I imagine that there has been some kind of response from supporters of migrants or otherwise Yes You know people are afraid you know like before this was you know usually done right around the border . You know for officials to say oh you're here we're sending you back but now it can any immigration official nationwide anywhere in the nation can stop you and say Are you here illegally you know you'll be deported. So people are up in arms like do they have to carry their papers with them. You know when they're just going to work to the grocery store. Some people are afraid that they'll be caught up even if they're here legally you know if they're citizens which happened recently a 17 year old was detained on the border. For a number of weeks and it's like I'm a citizen and. And it wasn't until a newspaper in Texas published something that he was released. To. Jail is a story that's not going to go away anytime soon is it Melissa brass is going to have ramifications Yes and it's. It's almost ramping up as other. Not raids but enforcement activities are done you know there was a recent. Activity at a plant in Mississippi you know and now many Latinos are just afraid. You know and you were telling us about this just days after day after the president introduce this new. No benefits rule for immigrants if you're an immigrant yes to pay rights to American century basically if you're not a very wealthy immigrant rights you can't get a. Green card if you're on benefits or right and you can claim benefits if right if you know you came here with that. This is part of what we would describe him. As a hostile environment to deter. Immigrants from coming to the United States or is is it the case that immigrants you know the political to the you need to get yourself related. Well I'm not going to claim what what the president's. Motives are and forcing this too much any evidence immigrants are being deterred on the borders from coming to the United States because of these new laws being unveiled. I'm not so sure about the fast track deportations but definitely. You know Central Americans coming across the border they're being detained in great numbers in families. So yes it's. Definitely an issue and his supporters the president's supporters are like this is what we need to do to keep our country safe whereas others are like we don't need to be about it you know we don't need to be in Maine and how we treat people who are coming to our country seeking a better way of life that is so thank you. Melissa go brave there from USA today so no no no I mean on the phone as well we all have a goal was a she was down on the news from Australia months over things that Courtney's me in the. Movie and she's the only time. Anyone else this is C.B.C. Radio 5 Live it's to call it Good morning this is. Not a bar 5 lines that conservatives feel much on so that claims the minutes trying to break the chances of a break that deal and in sports you have to concede forward in Glasgow is the shapes of the Champions League.