Day of the inaugural the match athletics competition in Minsk person down the set won the women's 100 meters it comes just over 2 weeks out from the World Championships in Doha this is B.B.C. Radio 5 Live on digital B.B.C. South it's small speak up on the weather right mostly clear in tonight just a few patches lingering in the north and east of Scotland try with some mist patches developing in central and southern England choose to a mix of sunshine and clouds for most areas heavy rain moving into Scotland and Northern Ireland in the afternoon with some stronger winds temperatures tomorrow it's 19 degrees in London 15 the height for Belfast. Because you know now to be complete enough even as measured by the capital mostly because many that I know we're listening to feel. Now you'll find I'm going to take a little bit to. Be. Your past 20 coming saying so finally I do find life sports extra to celebrate show you. And pays debate prime minister Boris Johnson 2nd call for an early general election . With a breath we will be pretty. Sick in the next 15 minutes with us tonight all of us in for the long haul Cindy. Editor at the Spectator magazine. And he's Professor of Politics at the University of Liverpool and of course 5 lives on a 4 star is still in the lobby of the force and who now believe has the Liberal Democrat M.P. From Liverpool Wavertree the biggest With Me Hello good evening it's rather late his nose we were just saying you've got sort of small children so actually any time of the day or 2 I think it's going to be equal to you isn't it all blends into one it does but somebody who is still here we are not finished the debate yet not expecting it around 20 past midnight and that's before we have to purgation of and that will. Happen afterward so yes it's very late to be had this time I was in the chamber because it to watch and to listen to it sounds really really fiery and very passionate quite unpleasant at times it's really appalling to be honest with Freddie one of the worse the sions I sat through in the chamber of just come out and speak to you now but it's really really really poor at the level the bay is all full. Of us is behaving really really badly was having with Boris Johnson his microphone on the on the dispatch box what happened there why he decided to unusually activity to happen before he took the microphone and placed it on top of the box itself that's never happened oh I suppose I make a scene. And as a result doing so no one can really hear what he was saying so it wasn't very helpful but it was a spy pompous arrogant and him and he couldn't hear anyone trying to make an intervention and this is the price to be a debate he supposed to take interventions from M.P.'s of of all sides and he's chose not to because Is that want to be held to account he wants an election why won't you give it to him if you're so confident that you'll do well in one or as a. Member of the media from him or the Liberal Democrats as we would do well here at the polls at this moment time but we don't trust us Johnson one my editor and we only have to see that the check he's played over the last few days and weeks today that unless we have a categorical extension to Article 50 we cannot allow a general election at this moment because it would allow us to crush out with no deal in the body such as what the people warmed if they vote but what I don't get the chance there's a very helpful poll out this afternoon which shows that 55 percent of the British public do not support what the prime minister is doing essentially closing down Parliament to stifle debate to ram through his NATO Bracks it public don't support this action we live in a parliamentary democracy in the fact he's using the tool of probation and dressing it up as thing else and we won the debate earlier today to force him to. Release the documents to prove the fact that we know that he's closing down Parliament because he's trying to round through this NATO Breck's that in the election front. I'd be delighted for a general election but not on his terms which would only serve possibly as a mechanism to ram through this election and to round to the New Deal bricks that he won't even confirm that he will abate by the rule of law in this instance in this extraordinary times we can't take any risk or chances you can see though why people on the outside voters the electorate speech they would be saying to themselves Look just just give us a chance to tell you what we think today to give you an updated view on where we stand on this and I'd really welcome that and I think the best way of doing that is by a people state as take the towns of any deal to the British public in 3 years on from when they write about it it just isn't time for that matter is that where they should be time and I think anyone who is standing as prime minister today should take the terms of his deal you know what breaks it is actually going to mean for this country when 1st and foremost I think we should be stopping the prospect of a no deal Bracks it because of the by the government's own assessments it would have such severe repercussions for our country catastrophic consequences and even a harbor exit you take those terms if you're so confident that you think this is what the British public wants take it back to them these are the terms is this what you want now that's how you fix it and that's how you in my view contend with this it shipwrecks it having come from the chamber just now you know our parliament cannot solve this crisis I think it should be taken back to the public because a general election isn't going to solve anything it didn't solve anything back in 2017 and we know it's called a general election because it contends with lots of different issues many of which stem from BRICS it but it's not just for access alone and on that basis that's have a people to take it back to the country and the Lib Dems position seems to be what I say shifting tonight it's not fundamentally shifting in terms of the fact that the party opposes breaks it but actually the Fischel position will now be to. Article $58.00 of going for a people's vote to the referendum whatever it may be revoking Article 50 would be the ticket of the Lib Dems stood on but this is the policy it is going to be debated at live with Democrat conference this weekend on Sunday and I'm really delighted that the motion is going forward will be debated and voted on is saying if the libertarian cracks secure a majority at the next general election the position we very clearly to revoke Article 50 in the event the best will in the world and I don't want to suckle new founded fusion and for your new party the Lib Dems aren't going to win a majority of the election Well I believe there is everything to play for at this next election and just seeing the response and to having joined the party in the last few days people want clarity they want to make an equivocal Liberal Democrats the only party that has put enough food at this moment in time to say we want to stop the exit we're not afraid of it we're not part trying to play to all sides and be all things to all men this is our position and we believe it's in the best interest of our country in terms of jobs in terms of securing our feature not just my feature but the next generations feature I'm proud to stand up for that position the best deal that we've got is the one we've got already in the European Union and I'm delighted to be campaigning for that a feature general election. Thank you I would I was going say I would let you go back in the chamber it doesn't seem like it's a particular enticing prospect at the moment well with the last few minutes the debate in the ME going to vote against Boris Johnson's prospects of an election at this moment because he won't confirm he will extend Article 50 I won't say thank you thanks for popping out and joining us I'm so Sarah is as we were saying it is a vote potentially it was 90 minutes was allocated for this particular debate which should should be up in the next 10 minutes or so so we should see M.P.'s coming through here voting a Boris Johnson will not get this general election because it's under the fixed term parliaments that he would need to surge of M.P.'s to agree with him and we know that they don't so the next thing that we know is going to happen here in Parliament for sure is in the next hour he will be Perogue be sent away for 5 weeks until October the. fourteen's when the new session starts new queen speech it lonely be a couple of days out from that e.u. Council whoa boris johnson a saying that he wants to go and trying get it deal it is all stills playful i'm between now and then it's general election campaign time so he's everybody really embracing the full joy of general let you gab veiled tired of all right yes of course we are it sally 12 minutes past midnight on a fag you so much getting a little bit hysterical yeah is if sin do we thought that we could escape politics for 5 weeks in fact we will be treated to all schools of pledges whitely yeah you know as exactly right i mean i think it will be a slower pace than what we've seen the last week she says hopefully but you know a there will be no rest for the way kid said bush owns will be hitting the campaign trail even they there isn't a form which an election you can be sure to him more about his domestic agenda more funding for police to tackle crime will funding for the n.h.s. Maybe kara it statements on immigration as well as it were these things that will go as part of his domestic agenda that we hit at dominic coming is his advisor asked you fakers creeping and talking on that fight is not clear how labor's going to try to play this election at the moment and considering the day even name when they would do you hunt an election and and their bryce's josh she is in is very confusing merely is very convoluted very sort of step by step say then message just going to be hardest get out maybe the price it they are absolutely dined to get back to their other message is that they feel that for x. It is totally and expound on those buses are i'm looking forwards the party come from seasoned which is course you arms because you are professor politics is your are maybe in a category of the little democrats start is off them got labor in brian conservatives why in the season up in manchester they will all take home the appearance of election molly's because no one is really suggesting way our void and autumn alexion i think is a question of how deep into water I mean we've not had a December elections since the 1920 S. One of the November elections since the 1930 S. So there are unusual but I think it's unavoidable I mean Labor will not want to be seen to be running away from an election you know the way that the accusations of Boris Johnson was making tonight they don't want to do that in perpetuity Now you say it's not a good. Majority and spending billions of pounds with with election pledges including the controversial speech that he made with the police being used as the background so we are into a sort of phony election season called the party conferences and this year before the election starts. My big fear from this is that I agree with what Lucy said that there's no guarantee that an election will solve anything the numbers will stay very similar precisely no overall majority and more of the same and more impasse John I want to what you think about this the theory game around to recycle is that the numbers might not increase at all by much but the people here will be returned in a conservative party will be very different say you've got the 21 rebels who have been expelled who are not compliant towards a new you know a lot of other M.P. Saying they're not going to stand in the next election say C.C.H. Key who selects candidates that are more friendly towards New Deal and the numbers might not change much but the composition of the Conservative Party might have changed enough. To make life easier I think they'll still need an overall majority though with the with or without the D. You pay you if you are going to get a hard Bragg's it through parliament because I think the other parties will combine still to block up so I think the conservative clearly vulnerable in Scotland looking ahead to the election that will come the conservative clearly vulnerable in Scotland from want to 13 but may go back to one or potentially even 0. But I don't think the Liberal Democrat threat to the conservatives is quite as big as has been talked up the Liberal Democrats seats were within 15 percentage points of of the conservatives and so it is to be able to hold off a revived Liberal Democrat Party. With a conservative going to put home. Number of seats but they really need to gain to have a substantial majority I just don't see that coming yes let us have a quick chat. A little bit about John Burke because I feel that we haven't spoken about him today there have been a couple of great sketches in various newspapers today the one in The Guardian is very enjoyable I'll just read because it is very good it was all too much for Sally Bercow after more than an hour spent sitting listening to her husband and no sign of anyone letting up the speaker's wife slipped out of the commons gallery things today places to go she turned it all before most frequently from him. It's a nice touch because he. Does have an ego it is it is fair to say is absolutely Marmite I mean incredible scenes when a conservative speaker regardless of however kind of impartially supposed to be is lauded from the opposition benches and you know people sitting on their hands in the conservative policy with the exception of Michael Gove who some might say well he's quite he's quite good at it doesn't mean. I'm not saying that's why I believe that it is you know that's out there so what do you think how will John Bercow go down in history Cindy as the great reformer or as an incredibly divisive and constitutionally. Character Yeah I mean I mean terms of the constitutional stuff and he's broken quite a lot of conventions in the way he's been doing things and he is known to be biased even from his by his supporters in a Margaret Beckett at. Labor M.P. Had said in a wake of the betting scandals that yes it was the bankers facing all these allegations but the same time there are more important things like breaks it you know does anyone reason she said which is that she thought that they would be ruling on labor side on the remain a side in embrace issues and he has been doing that so that even anything his neutrality is you know and he is using his QUESTION Yeah exactly it's a I mean I think I say let's go back to the man himself he's calling the vote. For John dream I was showing where we were so off they go to vote and we expect to come back in how many minutes till you see stuff you've got 10 minutes then about 10 or 15 there were numerous bring your bells and we will be alerted to that for doing so after you were made Flo there Cindy talking about John Burke Are you saying essentially that he has been his He's trying to say he's not in question Yes I'm actually not neat and I think I did in the implications of what he sent to the convention will be seen in wider scale in the years to come you know we'll see whether or not neutrality off the speaker's chair can be returned easily I mean in this highly divisive time whatever government comes into power next will be trying to use the Speaker's role as a political role now that John Branca has shown they can be doing that so one more the speaker return to the previous function that he that they had before back is yet to be seen I it's interesting they that they say don't they that the man who is favorite to take over from E.'s considered by the House to be quite. Even handed let's just nip back to Ana for a mother who is in the lobby no doubt now absolutely surrounded by people because the Chamber has empty barrels can you hear the bell. Yeah the bells will ring knowingly for a little while now they're going to head out they're going to vote now we already know how this one is going to go Boris Johnson will not as we were saying get this election. I'm but it will be interesting to see who goes which way some of the M.P.'s a voting against Obviously some of them are choosing to abstain I will grab some of them as well as they as they head by and get some similarly view some on the spot views for you Sarah. Thank you very much indeed it we will look for to the still crazy tinkling of bells it's like the weirdest there to interval intermission that you've ever had it's on going to we were chatting there John just about John and whether or not he would be seen as the great reform or like the weather as Cindy was saying the actual featured speakers will say well we can the hell with the president we just carry on doing I agree wholeheartedly with Cindy that he was not neutral he was not seen if you troll he was facilitating all sorts of maneuvers from remain as to. Made little secret the good side of CO was that his willingness to sell the importance of Parliament schools all over the news conferences Yeah I mean a bit some of those and he was wonderful selling the importance of Parliament to toward says some of them hard to reach audiences he was also the but by just friendly facilitator kind of what I was going to say Surely that is a vital role isn't it to be the back of the voice of the backbench is that if you can make sure that the row the backbench. Up against the executive those only the right to the Conservative party those are the European Research who would say he wasn't our friend so this is selective Is he there but you know he will go down as was one of the most memorable speakers I don't think anyone but it's no doubt a question of his place in history to short and he's a tough act to follow it in that respect I think probably start favorites the replacement and I think that he is seen as. A very neutral is not one of the political journeys that John Bercow ever went on John Bercow started off as a right wing conservative and then became in some ways he was seen as almost conservative certainly against the 2nd have been that party so. Nobody know how he changed tack so significantly over the course of the career where his wife was a Labor supporters. Influenced him the race as it was they made a lot of people quite. Extreme on both sides I mean opinion polling shows that it's happening on a wider scale cross the country that people in these days 10 just want to deal or to just have a son of some kind of remain but they won't revoke or they want a new I think that's happened. To a lot of public figures as well before breaks it had other things we need them by and now we need them for the very. Yes I mean the reforms that. Were never formally introduced I mean. PM queues go on interminably Everyone's that because the chamber is because he let it go and so mistakes were made but he was dealing with perhaps the most difficult parliament that we've seen at least a generation possibly ever and I think you have that sense. You know you have to give some credit that he did the least referee it whether neutrally times is a question and he of course characteristically has as I would have said this a fairly characteristically unbiased fashion in setting his own date for departure he has a very big bearing on what happens next and he doesn't Yeah I mean I think parties I mean they were to current dealers in Poland would definitely have hoped for him to stay but it wasn't clear that he could stay if the conservatives were really going to run a candidate against him in any upcoming elections they just be humiliating for him . Like that yes he's jumping before his passion at the same time there is a sting in his resignation him resigning before the next general election means that whoever is next will be voted in by this current parliamentary formation say given this current parliamentary formations the one that passed the Bendo that ties the government's hands if we can probably say that. So whoever the next speaker is will probably have to be some kind of. That sort of thing and you know we could. Be a stone this is a hard act to follow. But yes it's a. Does is allow the current M.P.'s to choose the 2nd to his successor. Did we always used to be the way John that it was I mean nothing is constant it in parliament but they used to take it turn about although there were 2 Labor speakers Well Betty Boothroyd and the name escapes me for it to be the norm the conservative speaker would be followed by a by a Labor speaker but it's not written into the rules say Lindsay Hoyle would start favor on the grounds that he is seen as neutral sort of a solid but very reasonable right wing Labor. And he's been. Good reasonable grasp of parliamentary procedure that was the thing we John Bercow to his credit actually he was on top of parliamentary procedures obviously any speak is heavily reliant upon the expertise of the clocks but nonetheless he did have a good command. Of watching what was going on. I've seen deputy speaker sometimes lose their authority in the Commons because they haven't really graphs the procedures that are happening around them on the to have their reliance upon Yes I . Think that's something John Barker never seemed to do he always seemed to be utterly in control and knowledgeable about every particular you having to do with a lot of nonsense resources but. Points of order tonight which would help the not points of order now and wasting time. And he does deal with them quiet robustly shall we say My favorite is always from a certain tradition I never get bored I tend to say that in my own house. You know well. Back in the lovely she has somebody from the S.N.P. With her there is no children here this is still top notch concept here I can see black men from the recipes with me voted already we're abstaining on all your abstaining on this one yes because we don't want the general election to be in the hands of the prime minister so that he can drive through the New Deal Bracks it so we're choosing to abstain I think is about 5 or 6 minutes left in this division and then we'll have the result why an abstention instead of voting against because of the way this works. Some parliaments act a 2 thirds majority to in favor of it so an abstention basically works the same as us not just just saves your trip through the lobby essentially raise you can go iron So it's a B. And. Although actually what I was doing was I was coming to see if black road was going to come along the corridor or in order to bring the news from the Queen that parliament is going to be corrupt which is obviously going to be a big big moment because the prime minister is looking to parole for such a long period of time at a point if you know constitutional crisis frankly and it's just ridiculous that we're in this in this situation but I was quite keen to see if I could watch a happening life while this is sort of next on the field it was going to be the last thing that happened so you can took in here with me we've got this nice little cooler here in central week because it is nobody will know you cozy looks lovely story to us you can watch it from here I mean this this this is the thing this is going to sort of happen next we did away people are saying that that was kind of shot himself in in the folks here because he's got this last ditch attempt for general election which he gets and now you're all being sent away at his behest So if you wanted another go he couldn't this is a mind up in a situation where hopefully he has to go to the E.U. And he's got to ask for an extension because we don't want not no deal cliff edge to happen so if you still prime minister at that point at a point of the E.U. Summit then he will have to ask for that extend he says he's not going to do that well the only way out of that is either for him to resign or for him to break the law and I would hope that a sitting prime minister is not keen to break a could get a deal as the 3rd option a spouse you're absolutely right he could get a deal if he had actually proposed anything to the E.U. And they were in any kind of discussions and you know he's got 5 weeks to do so so he could you know suddenly decide that he can negotiate a deal in 5 weeks when they can do it in 3 years and that that could happen but it doesn't seem likely at this point I went to the S.N.P. Wants because you do want we do want an election we want this extension to be secured and then we want to have a general election very shortly afterwards the reality is it's not majority nice a common. Just now for the government and there needs to be a general election in order to clear the air we're very keen to try and get rid of the Tories that there are in Scotland just try and try and come back with an increased number of base in PM piece so what do you do for the next few weeks that because obviously it's it's party conference season but the suggestion is a lot of M.P.'s which is going to head straight to the doorstep Oh absolutely have been on the doorsteps already you know that's part of what I do people stories and say hi I'm your M.P. Is there anything I can do to help you I will be doing more of the same I will be doing canvassing will be gaining in speaking to local charities and local businesses and speaking to people a day is bothering them whether that is breaks or whether that is something completely different but that's what I do in my kind of every day rule is an M.P. If you like I'll just have more time stick so what could I do London ministers to cast a batsman Thank you I'll let you go but for the vote you know this is the space I'm over here next the fairings exertion lovely Yes it's not the most glamorous birth but very well could share it thank you because you've got me in the same piece deputy Westminster leader Sarah yet with that I should say we were talking about about pro gay shit and there is this this sort of very archaic and wonderful ceremony that you were talking about the you were describing earlier in the program but at some point is we're saying back road we'll sort of process through here and bring peace to and fro when you get to hit I should be quite excited it's going to sound really good stuff in a long time it's been a while since we thought it they're all filing in. Is pretty packed now the chamber we are expecting a vote at any moment. Know the tellers are Shust starting to come towards the front of the House now to stand in front of the speaker John Burke I expect there will be another couple of moments we think. Number 4 Boris Johnson 434 M.P.'s way short last time 298 with 56 votes against of course technically he won but obviously when you have to win big you got 46 percent of M.P.'s last time see where they get up to the 50 percent don't see it coming. That's the least dramatic of the parliamentary votes we've had in in recent days because there is no chance to talk unless Unless what I guess of another tells probably given but Cindy we have we've seen him make comments haven't we directly after things have happened as well as I was last time after the Off to the last fight he had quite a few things to say are we expecting a last swipe do you think from bars Johnson before progression and I think say Yeah I mean he just can't resist having a loss like a John weak open for what is a pretty inconsistent position to say that you want general election but not right now. And also in a this is the sort that we've had it quite a lot this evening as well from Opposition M.P.'s that they just don't trust Boris Johnson but if Boris Johnson was really return to government then he has a democratic mandate because his policy on NATO be pretty clear so I don't understand what argument is or if they are saying that he did it Charles tend to not change the election date after they voted this through and they could just no confidence him off to parliament comes back from its publication so I don't quite see those 2 reasons working out and it just seems like well maybe they just want to hold him in paralysis Yeah I mean I know exactly right and I know that and I'm sure you could lighten the from from their point of view what I think is that I think you say that they think they don't necessarily win major recouping could be certain of a victory right now I don't see why you wouldn't want to and not as a knight of his job back I would just get it. But I use the right 293 nevers the left 46 of us yes I believe somebody else said listen let's talk about I mean just the right age to 193. To the left for she said. The ayes have it I have it strong 6. Of explanation 5 I said about frightening election over the last week well ahead of me of which I would expect. The majority does not satisfy the requirements of the a disgrace and the way the prime minister operates it is right. Because Jerry Cohen this is fake I hope the Prime Minister will reflect on the issue of progress and shutting down Parliament to avoid a government being held to account because that is exactly what he has done today and proposes to do to this country. Thank you Mr Speaker and I should. Congratulate the prime minister because at least he's been consistent is the last of free food he's brought to this. Was. Not a good reason Mr Speaker of the base trying to shut the book you see this evening. The message that must go to the prime ministers will be can run for the next few weeks but will be Bucky it in the middle of October he is the prime minister of A By not a G. Government and he's been given an instruction that he has to do to proselytize and get an extension here one on extension has been delivered we will have an election bonus will be swayed from government. The people of Scotland will. There see I'm looking forward to this accusing a few Jews was an independent. Thinker we've become the punching somebody totally right to take a most television is polluted and taken us away from a part of us nicely and the European Union in. Its rhetoric day me burning in human speak for the voter this is a sad day actually for our democracy was saying was we are all seeing this moment shut down to speak up because the prime minister is running away from accountability was trying to side. So he's not prepared to fight by the rule of law is running away from this was I thought the Prime Minister way out the Liberal Democrats offer the prime minister a way out put it to the people enough people vote was a good thing. You're going to vote a ritual my school please speak I wonder if you can advice me how right as well as there will be a few more points would I imagine at this point everybody from all various parties will have a moment to speak and then black rod will appear and thought whole process that we've been talking about all my of a little bit later than we thought will take place is still with me tone and Cindy you and also Anna Foster is going to be out there in the in the lovely white his people empty out in the next few minutes just give us sir your thoughts there Cindy on the numbers that Boris Johnson's last another 5 room yeah me as I 6 fights sorry to buy that carries no 6 fights but 5 tour he says he. And as as that love a helpful voice said at the end is less than last time and it is less than last it was John reminded us last night was $298.56 against this time is 29629346 against say where those votes have gone interesting to see and refreshing the Commons fate as we speak we get that anytime soon but yeah be interesting to see huge up off that you think John was who your money on any idea is hard to tell but I think people just so fed up that they probably stayed away I don't read too much snags into it but obviously it's another embarrassment for Boris Johnson losing the parliamentary vote they were does show is that the fixed term parliaments are which many people myself included thought was a chocolate fireguard of a safeguard against governments go for stop election military felt like a safe it showed its teeth I mean you do need this 2 thirds majority and you know Boris Johnson has been thwarted in calling an election or more as you know it would have been. Hard to not been put in place by David Cameron and the coalition with the Liberal Democrats 2011 it came in right there you know we would we would be looking at an early election an election this October at a time very much of the government's choosing there's no way versions of is going to know confidences own government I mean some of the more outlandish things that have been mooted to get an election on I mean Boris Johnson made no mention of that but the thing that is left hanging in the air is what Boris Johnson said earlier this is the the big reveal of tonight where he says I will not ask for a further So is he going to break the law is he going to run is he going to bizarre he said he's not going to resign How is he going to get around that and said things in the past and the other things I mean I recall I was at the conference in the last year he said you know we've got to been the backstop we've got to jump the backstop and what do you do get back from that conference and voted for the trees maybe draw agreement on the final occasion including the backstop so you know how this is. Spectacular util I won't want this to be the U.-Turn of Utah here. Is why one wonders the do you P.C. To be so confident at least outwardly that he is as as supportive of them as trees or was he certainly not as pro-union as she was Yeah absolutely yeah I mean you know he's leading the U.P.A. For the numbers it was understandable and he's the 1st person. To go and launch a leadership contest at someone else's party conference that's what he did you know the peace conference and also once called The Wonder city and I should have put this to Nigel Dodds but I was caught on the hop a little bit but one wonders really a storm and why the E.U. Would accept a veto from a government that hasn't sat in 3 years I mean us a really good question yeah I mean a space that would just be balancing up the different considerations and you've got a Good Friday agreement if a storm want control it backs up with the anyway to respect the Good Friday Agreement and the integrity of the single market and maybe the E.U. Would consider that but as you say it has even been to just don't want to have moments of how he even make it practical when you know I couldn't have done in the light any time in the last 2 years so think this is it is really quite ridiculous come the supposed 31st October Stormont would have been suspended for 1007 days. You can be no one thinks she would talk to any of them and allays I don't think you can but any time soon you got the inquiry report. Which will be damaging should Faine don't particularly want to go back in for a variety of reasons and still ones being bypassed anyway I mean earlier on tonight in the common yes same sex marriage was said to be introduced and abortion was being legalized for Northern Ireland. You know over the heads of those do you pay you know they that actually that argue that that's a very handy Bible for the. Well there were at least 2. Who privately didn't have a major problem with same sex marriage being being introduced does not say that but some authority of the. Other 8 having it take their hands but it's. True in all but name being imposed and you'll get more and more of a creeping direct rule and there's a disagreement within the cabinet at the moment as to whether direct rule should or has to be brought in as a consequence of a no deal brags that the security situation. Want to want to be alarmist talk at risk but there's been trouble tonight. There are. May just potential security implications of a no deal Briggs as well and rule looks more and more likely but the government is very very reluctant to bring in rule because it is the death of the Good Friday agreement if you take away the power sharing institutions it is a. Failure isn't it and I'm one cannot help but think that whatever the D.P. Said to us tonight that there is that the only way out really at this point in time is for Boris Johnson to be able to go to Europe and secure something around the backstop the isn't going to might do you pay very happy $1.00 thinks that that must be one of the only ways forward that's also a high risk strategy for him because of how public and passionately He's gone against the do or die you know he wants to step back stop and say if it is to any of Northern Ireland any backstop he will have to repackage that somehow this common food area that that's another possibility is yes he said kind of an olive backstop money they decide he's going to that the pay off there I think to be very cautious because the other side of the election still need the numbers basically the numbers and his friend the so there was there's not a single party in 21 embodies our side does he give a monkey's. Try to change the nature of the Conservative Party keep the. With the because of the Parliamentary the we're running out of time and I'm very conscious of the fact that we haven't talked about all. Day So this is another considerable issue for the government today so basically they're being forced to publish we think advice that they got on a no deal breaks is whether or not they were then right to probe Parliament as a result of it how many of these documents are likely to see the light of day I think most of the documents will see the light of day I think the government will be careful in what it's written in terms of the documents I think the controversy with what was passed tonight will be the surrendering of mobile phones the checking potentially quite an intrusion upon individual cabinet ministers privacy and I think that will be fiercely contested I think be fiercely resisted no matter the nature of the bill that was passed today yeah Cindy that will be very very awkward yeah I mean Dominic Grieve has named 8 or say advises in that. Document saying these are the people who need to hand over the order communications computers e-mails and which you really begs the question of privacy and again I think this goes back to what I was saying earlier about people on both sides of the debate getting a bit extremist about this I mean just taking a step by you asking to see government workers private messages in order for some kind of extradition judicial court to decide whether or not they had reason to parade parliament who is deciding who's going to be best is Dominic Grieve doesn't say what will be their standard by which he sort of judge whether or not progun was legitimate Dominic Grieve it doesn't say it is just the whole thing just seems like a stand a symbolic stand and I find it very difficult to believe that number 10 would allow this to go ahead I think they would rather fight in the courts than allow this to go ahead feels like. That's what's going to end up I think is a dangerous move for frankly I mean what happens the messages that were received by ministers from from civil servants civil servants are entitled to. A measure of privacy even if you think it might be fair game to ask for special advisers but civil servants are politically neutral and they have to present a whole range of scenarios to ministers Anyway now you might think well why can't the public see them but you know civil servants maybe would be reluctant to give very candid advice to ministers if they think that ultimately their messages emails their private email their private e-mails of concern or caution to a minister going to be read by some judicial body and I think there are dangers in there are but I guess we live in extraordinary times say we I while the PM is constitutionally completely within his rights to prorogue the government has to be seen as Dominic Grieve the phrase that stuck with me early to be seen to have clean hands I cannot conceal a motive or mislead the public and if the documents do suggest that then that surely that that needs to be brought into the loss of I'm not really sure if that matters to be honest I mean that's really a cynical thing to say about British politics right now but if we think about it from as you know me 10 strategic point of view they just want to get through this until a general election at which point they are going to put everything into getting a majority say whether or not the public think that they're being misled I mean that post out saying that because Johnson is deeply and trustworthy but those same voters with think that he's going to be a better prime and he's better claim is that and I mean I know Cindy if that works in your generally let should go to I mean we are at least 2 reasons why I differ I mean I don't know what do you think you do think that he will laugh out of that if they are found to have misled the public on prorogue Oh I think it would be a massive embarrassment but I think I think in terms of Prodi I'd stop it I think it's a 4 it's a nonsense the amount of. Time for 5 weeks when the conference season and I get the party conference it is important to have a argument it's only $35.00 days more than they would have anywhere close it's closer to 2 weeks before let's have a fixed term parliaments art that deals with the length of parliament so the government can prorogue at a time of their convenience to prevent parliamentary scrutiny the fixed in Parliament section of a remit beyond general elections should also given the length of parliamentary terms 2 great texts here Donna Greece plan to see these people's personal funds can only be described as one what it's fascists as shown in London this one says the grief humble address is for work related messages but who decides I think is the question at the point you were trying to makes and it wasn't it that when you met with not trying to make that you made very clearly who is going to decide who looks at these a more constitutes war and how on earth you've been how do you separate those out anyway actually I mean there was a huge uproar when the Met Police said that they were against the this to fix hymns of sexual assaults to see what exactly they said about that tack in the days that followed and I was a huge uproar rightly say because the police may not have been the best people to judge what was the validating text that was such an attack and right now we're not even talking about trade trained police people looking at these has We're just talking about some people that Dominic Grieve supposedly find my space and I think it's over he's due respect on the grave as an M.P. And I think what he's done is obviously very principled throughout this process but consummate lawyers and yes absolutely but today's actions I am quite shocked by maybe he's gone too deep into the law and not taking a step back and looking at the decency and the more ethical ethics of what he's proposing Martin Beaconsfield says Dominic Grieve is in my opinion every bit as extreme in his views as. In his Yet only one side of this debate is ever called practice or anti democratic we must leave democracy fails period Martin thank you very much for those 85058. We got to know one throwing out the tax number now you got 8 minutes I guess because I love reading them even if it's 1 o'clock in the morning let's briefly chat because of course. Typical we're living in our own little insular world we have not talked one jot about how the E.U. Won't be feeling about everything that's going on today. Cindy despite France's process stations at the weekend one feels that they were probably accept an extension Yes I read on this right yes so France has been historically I mean was grumpy about brakes and bright extensions are good for me because he could be the tough guy yeah exactly and what I was going to say is that back in March that was because the pay elections were coming up he had to be seen as a tough guy especially with Angela Merkel about to step down as well as he had to it worked for him on his domestic front now it doesn't need to have that tough guy approach that even though his friend his foreign minister has said that you can't indefinitely extend I don't think micro will be wanting to be seen as the person that makes new deal happen really save Britain ask for an extension I don't think might be the one to say no and especially as his fellow E.U. Leaders would probably be saying yes so that he wouldn't take his battles and not fight that particular ones don't. I think we're more huffing and puffing from from across over this he may demand certain conditions but it is in the interests to play along to give in and another extension in the hope that something turns up in the something in this case will be a general election and what may happen is that maybe a Labor ministration after it maybe a minority administration and that would involve a deal with the S.N.P. And allowing a 2nd independence referendum in Scotland has lots of permutations but the point is labor is now a remain party. Labor say that they will negotiate a deal with the you but basically the will be a referendum if Labor sticks to its policy now with remain as one of the OP one of the options we still got some clarity from the Labor Party as to what exactly the referendum would contain it so you know it may be that Briggs is called off so why wouldn't the E.U. Give an extension because we know the general election is 99 percent sure to be coming to us pretty soon I don't know if any of you just as a final note really just because I enjoyed it and noticed a comment about. Boris Johnson on the steps outside the doll today in Dublin and he said he set the PM and set him self. But that he hopes to be his Athena and as somebody brilliant reporter called Richard Chambers tweeted for the benefit of those not classically educated Hokies went mad killed his wife and children but Athena stepped in knocked him out and stopped his killing spree and then helped him through the rest of his 12 labors to atone for his streak of lunacy so that was a nice tackles an episode nice little pop is going to be staying on up all night I suspect at some point this debate will finish at some point in our future is points of order at the moment it's almost as if they haven't realised that it's a 5 minutes to warn him because they know they've got 5 weeks off so might be back at work against him or they could they could still have a lawyer and so it's points of order this is what you can hear and it's your. Yeah you get a very simplistic No that is you know the faith in charge is not a noble concept without precedent in the history of our politics the wonderful out of foster is going to stay with you for a pomo I suggest strongly that you stay with everybody tonight here on 5 Live because it's still going on but a big thank you now tonight to my guests to Cindy who is broadcast editor at the Spectator magazine thanks very much for being with us and staying sidelights and they never and to John talking Professor of Politics at the University of Liverpool John thank you very much for being with us my pleasure always great to have you on the program and given that he's made his announcement today that he's going to head off into the sunset we were thought that we would give you the speaker John Boehner now in full flow and this is just from the last 7 days in Paul want. To go down if we have to go on longer because people sitting on the Treasury Bench yelling to try to disrupt simple little party led by Jeremy cool but. Yeah we didn't name you can change the people who must observe the. Don't want to hold or I'm simply and politely informing the prime minister of a very long established procedure with which everybody including the prime minister must comply to meet me to control the proceedings to the remedy but the judge's Felt. To tell him back a that last comment made I think to mark a guy I have to education I take the route I am writing of provocation is pretty much just about to start although we're seeing now from the Chamber is the clock which reads as you will know the fuel is in trust not 2 minutes to one what's happening Alan well so I'm essentially Sarah and everybody sort of taking their positions the state police are all moving into line of the 2 big screens in the corner that tell you what's going on this a green one for the Commons says sitting suspended until 1 10 am The Lords the red screen says House of judgment pleasure which is an unlock a exit of Lords mating the having a rest until 1 10 am So what will happen now is that ceremony that you were talking about earlier an announcement on behalf of the Queen in the woods read by the leader of the house and then back rolled will some in the Commons they'll sweep past me in to get the M.P.'s from the Commons that'll sweep back across to the Lords at will hear a bit of Norman French that we haven't shaking in Cap d'Agde thing and and all of these sort of wonderfully all K. It things which will signal the end of this Parliament tree sitting Sarah has been a long one it's been the longest one since 1651 we'll as we lots I like to keep So I get the thank you very much to date outer door his cell phone up or like set aside Q. To all of my guests and the. Thank you most of all for listening and fully a great test will see tomorrow night that this knows what's going to happen it's time for. Thank you Sara later on up all night The Late Show where P.S. Vote to deny the prime minister's call for an early general election of the government is by parliament for the next 5 weeks President Trump calls up a secret signing ceremony with the Taliban and the strange story of John Lennon Yoko Ono on the part. Playing the probable and this B.B.C. Radio. 5 Live as we're joined by the B.B.C. Local radio stations across the U.K. a Local radio listeners. On the menus on 5 Live parliament prepares to be Perogue Zaf to the P.M.'s planning for a poll is blocked and installed defeats the by Scotland and Northern Ireland has 2020 qualification under threat from here up all night on the B.B.C. For I forward I'm drawing. Is B.B.C. 5 my time with the B.B.C. News on 5 Live here is sure Thank you Rod Good morning Boris Johnson has failed in his 2nd attempt to get a snap general election the prime minister needed to secure the support of 2 thirds of them pays the Commons 4293 in favor to 46 against many M.P.'s abstained has the Prime Minister government rule not to marry bricks. We will not allow the impact a good age of the referendum could be slowly suffocated by. Our street. While the opposition run from their duty to also to those who put us here. Can or to try and. The vote was Parliament's last act before will be it'll be suspended for 5 weeks Jeremy Cobain has accused the Prime Minister of make. In a move to avoid scrutiny under his request the house is now due apparently this evening to be parochial one of the longest progress progress geishas in history here in order to avoid any questioning of what he is doing or not doing simply to avoid discussion about Yellow how much he wasn't the 1st efface of the day the prime minister either M.P.'s voted in favor of the release of official documents detailing no deal breaks it planning it also calls for Downing Street to disclose messages and emails about the production of Parliament is the Attorney General Geoffrey Cox what legal right does the government. To require its employees to give a private. Personal mobile. If there is Mary legal right which I imagine you would compare the reason I. Went to enforce the humble address if you desire to do so domestic abuse charities have criticised a reason Mays decision to award Geoffrey Boycott a knighthood the former England cricketer was convicted in France of assaulting his partner in 1988 and Trish Stratus has also been knighted by the former prime minister a Public Health England is suggesting a helpline is set up for millions of people who may be dependent on highly addictive drugs such as sleeping pills and painkillers almost $12000000.00 adults were prescribed potentially addictive medicines in England last year and health correspondent is Dominic he's experts award.