Than simply a disagreement between Sunni and Shia Muslims only Ray discusses the conflict with academics in beyond belief for but 1st artists cultural figures educators and students challenge us to reconsider our stablish models of learning the Chicago based curator nearly Beckwith questions education history and race in what if our textbooks were black. When I decided to be a curator I just knew 2 things one that culture mattered. That culture was just as important as politics and just as important as business in terms of the way we organize ourselves as human beings and too I knew that there was no way I could not think about black history written art and the way that I present that. In my art class all we talk about are white artists in my music class all we talk about are white artists like that's ridiculous wishes reach back to the motherland Elysee we can retain and reignite the authenticity from whence we were taken away from its history it is history our history has just been omitted from their textbooks when you've been told you're right for a long long time it's heart to let go of your assumptions to end. The way. The way. I'm Naomi backlit I'm an arche rater here in Chicago and a lifelong student I decided to call this series what if our textbooks were black because I believe we need to rebalance the story of art and culture not just in exhibitions but in education we all know our European history but what about our black history where are the inspirational artists musicians writers and thinkers that are being overlooked. Where imagining a whole new textbook already within its pages from our 1st episode we have the fanatic Ulip oratory of Gwendolyn Brooks and the dance forms innovated by Katherine Dunham and propre MOUs this time we'll turn our attention to music and 1st visit. Art. The 1st time I saw a painting carry chains Marshall I thought if I were an artist I would pay to see precisely like that Cary mostly create scenes with black figures and I mean literally black. Charcoal sitting in colored people we see them situated in places that you can actually locate in black neighborhoods across the u.s. And yet carries paintings for relevant to the broadest international audience. I remember starred in Canada garden my kindergarten teacher kept the scrapbook pictures and postcards and greeting cards and all kinds of things that she clip from magazines and stuff and that scrapbook she let the kids who were best behaved look at that scrapbook while everybody was taking the nap after recess that was the book that changed my life what it is it made me know that I wanted to make pictures like the pictures I was looking at in that scrapbook I wanted to make pictures that made other people feel the way those pictures in that book were making me feel so that's literally that was the beginning of my interest I didn't know there was such a thing as an artist you know you don't know it's called that but you can look at a lot of those pictures and you can see the difference between a drawing and a photograph and you can tell that a drawing was something somebody made. And so it had set up for me this quest to try to figure out what it was they knew that allowed them to do the kinds of things they did. You discover what an artist is what an artist can do what education began to frame this idea or what helps you I should say start to create a word that spoke to the public so that's something that doesn't happen till much later. I came across a book when I was in 5th grade called Great Negroes past and present. And it's an odd book because they didn't have photographs of any of the people I didn't have any grapples with a word instead it had illustrations that some artists had drawn of them. But it's the 1st place where I saw the name Charles White. And his name stuck with me Ebony magazine and later on did a great profile on Charles White 1961 a something like that and that was the 1st time I really saw the samples of his work I had never really seen pictures drawn of black people that looked as powerful as those absolutely you know did you study undersells way I did that's why I went to his art and history and because he was there I found out he taught on Tuesday and Thursday evenings I just when I went in there was a sketch book where I had no business being I went into that class and I situated myself in a corner in the back. But when the class took a break he saw me over the next corner he came over and talked to me and what he said was You can see now from back here Paul that's the will up on the front line where you can see and do some drawing and then after that he said if you want to come by any time you want to come by just come on. I use samples areas images black people that symbolically represent the matter black people in this country I use this image talk about the condition of man. When you look at Charles White's work it's powerfully rendered perfectly made technically virtuous sick paintings and their images of black people doing ordinary things but being extraordinary looking while they are doing it. So much how would you describe sounds images those people they seemed. Complicatedly self confident I mean they had a presence that seemed extraordinary. I mean drawing could not technically certainly could not be done better than that that's as good as it can be done. And yet it is only recently enjoying major recognition. This was a riddle. I didn't see why it's worked in the not consistently. One of the excuses for not including a lot of black people and things was always this notion that it's not good enough. But I think Charles White for answers that question of whether you were able to do good enough by doing it magnificently compared favorably with the works of Leonardo da Vinci with Michelangelo with Raphael I mean they look as good as any of those drawings did which is why somebody like me who was interested in this discrepancy between the things that I. Do and the presents that he had a lack of presence he had in the historical narrative why I had to find out what was really going on there. But as I started reading more theory of art and looking at art history and criticism you understand that excellence is not the measure of historical significance which meant that I had to figure out why he's given what I thought was the magnificent work even had. And what do you think those reasons were because simply making pictures is not what defines the value of a thing that's called an art work but asking the question of what kind of things can and can't work seem to be the thing that mattered the most but what it is that is that every aspect of the object has to be considered as well as the image there . And I think what I do with my painting is I consider all those things so I'm always making an object I'm taking 1st advice that when you're making work you make the best. Drawings you can that ideal would take care of themselves. My goal as an artist was to be able to make work that could hang in museums alongside everything that was already there that was my goal you want to painting next to Van days. And I also wanted to ultimately end up being one of those artists in chapter $25.00 of the standard our historical narrative outline how people did amazing things with their craft and knowledge that's what I want. That's what I want. Which brings me to that question what if I text books with black. What would the study of other black figures even including yourself do for future generations right what kind of big. What are we missing what are we missing by not looking at what is a really capacious field the field of black art an artist Yeah and what can we gain by paying some attention to well I mean this is a complicated question because when I came up I didn't experience my encounter with art was not framed by an experience. But it was clear to me from outset that I always had choices that was choosing. But what you find out is that I mean those demands for more black history class and stuff were not universally desired. By everybody didn't want to take a class in the growing history. Yeah there were protests and things like that going up but those protests were often led by people who were outside both the college. From u.c.l.a. And from Berkeley and places like that coming down to south central lead to rallies and protests and stuff like that but by the kids who were in school with not like every black student who is in school want to take classes in black history and black that is just not like that a lot of the interest that you have has to be self driven. We're here imagining a new textbook celebrating those black role models artists writers dancers musicians whose contributions to history are so often overlooked but for this project to be truly meaningful It can't just be academic only cite it within the walls of the classroom within the pages of a book Carrie Jane's Marshall told us why needing his idol was so important and what he gained from that direct personal and social connection the musician Mike Reed feels the same way the trash from experience was information but what I was really looking for was connections to people just be able to say I have a question What is that how do you do this after a while I figured I didn't need to be in a classroom to find those answers there to just be this person or that person that I just go to directly and mostly fire them from a club in a jam session. I'm sitting with Mike Reid in his 100 ring on the northwest side of Chicago and Mike's a composer and a performer he's also involved in running a couple festivals and he's an active member of the Association for the advancement of creative musicians a 50 year old union and musicians and educators whose wide experience with improvised performances expanded the boundaries of music as we know it to people stop. Being out in his profession Mike has this advice if you want to get the most out of taking lessons with someone find somebody who is part of a jam session that you like and take lessons from them picking up information just from the community and from peers of course just being in the room this isn't an intentionally naive question that is that typical. Should be typical this is how at this point whatever we call jazz music it's what it comes from is folk music that's passed from person to person it's becoming less typical and or maybe the more typical things is finding out things are new to I think still the musicians that operate well within different contexts they get asked to do things more they do have that skill set of assessing and finding out information from social interaction. There is oral traditions you know that you're not only of how to play that's hugely important but then the stories when you sit there and you're a creature on earth like Robert shy tell you stories about playing with there are some of them and Kurt you sit there and listen to 4 in the morning and this is where you know we really are passing some of these are archival stories you know and then every so often somebody puts it down somewhere you know whether it's by usually making a record. Mike reconnected deeply with music from an early age and by the time I was 10 and had my allowance I'd go to the record store and just blow all my money I was really into the blues and you know the blues and jazz sections are usually next to each other and I wandered over to far one day and the saw this record 2 guys saxophones on the cover of Blues this blues or so and so I. I don't have any sex. And I hate it except for one track I Don't Get Around Much Anymore to get the spin and as a Coleman Ben Webster record very legendary session. But it's slowly started to shift my ability to hear it. And so when I was then really getting into want to play music I also had this idea that if I can play jazz I budget really smart you know kids martyr in life so things like this I want to play drums and the people that were most proficient at it we were these jazz musicians. So let's talk about yeah 1st encounter with e.c.m. So the c.m. Or the Association for the advancement of creative musicians you know regionally forming and 65 they wanted to say See control the type of music that they wanted to make their environments that was going to be put and hopefully some bit of what the financial existence was that put it very very simply you know so in the time period where you were you know kind of at the behest of like with a club owner is that you're there for entertainment and also to be dictated what those terms of entertainment are going to be so these rules are hugely changing but also the artistic or eyes of the community of musicians community starts to really come to the forefront we see in the music of people like John Coltrane and even Miles Davis where the artistic ideas are starting to really move. For its own benefit not for the benefit of popular appeal and popular audience and or to sell records. The people that I really love where there would be Coltrane or monk or whoever they were making their own music for the most part and they would play some standards but will you really know them for is there. Music so if I want to be like that it's like well that I have to make my own music. Historically there's been a little bit of rift between composition and improvisation and my understanding or at least what I've seen from the a.c.m. Is that improvisation itself is a form of composition and I'm wondering if you can kind of explain what that means for the practice of the a.c.m. You know improvisation isn't strictly a jazz thing it's a technique American music in general and folk music has improvisation in its. You know it's interesting that a lot of jazz improvisers. Really get into composition you know like an Anthony Braxton and they definitely go 'd at the notion of composition as a very important part of who they want to present to be it's shoes it's a huge thing and you know if you look back actually also when we talk about Mingus Charles Mingus when we talk about him it's very huge to be considered as legitimate composers. Well I think it's because that difference between straight contemporary music or even historical music they want to be considered as great as person they want it their music to be up there with the most acceptable types of institutional spaces and it should be and it's interesting as the whole progression is moved and you know now the idea of jazz being America's classical music that's really evolved itself and you have a lot of these artists really being accepted on the highest level. Jazz is America's music and this beautiful tradition wouldn't exist if it weren't for the epic often painful history of black people in America. Thanks to social rights and cultural pride movements we can all celebrate both the history and the incredible American art it produced. All the artists we've met for the series are aware both of their craft and of the black history that informs their amazing art. Mike Reed and carry chains marshal value the importance of informal social interactions with teachable moments Princess moon and Dr Haki Madhubuti who we met in the 1st episode. They also create their own institutions to continue those legacies they know their history as much as there are. They are the authors and the subjects of our text book. I have a certain belief from something that Charles Weiss said that if you make your work as an artist you should make work it should always be about something and it should always be about something that mattered and if history matters then that means I got to know a little bit more about history than average if I'm going to make work that seems to want to address it. It's kind of for us by us and we continue to encourage each other part of the work that I do is to continue to glorify this history as we constantly look at ourselves through a different lands through this social media fallacy of what it means to be black dancing body how can we continue the conversation and make sure that it's told. We're the only people one of the few people who actually confused about who we are or we talk about black people just color. But we also talk about culture. Culture gives us a sense of identity purpose and direction Ok but from the culture you get consciousness ourselves we some are black we're saying there was a March color culture and consciousness so the Negro is a filter invention created in some plantation in Mississippi and so that's not somebody else's definition of us so we began to redefine ourselves as what essentially our great thinkers are doing that we decide who we are. We may decide who we are but who decides what we are taught. In Mani Angelina and Isaiah are all black high school students here in Chicago. I'm curious to know what they've been learning in history classes and what they want to marry. Most of like the classes that I take are like history and like social sciences because that's kind of like what I enjoy the most I find it really fascinating like what has gone on and how that relates to like what I'm doing right now I haven't taken as many as 3 courses as Imani has because I'm just generally not that interested in history like I feel bad that I'm. Going to pay attention because it was like I know that these are white stories I know that you know I've heard about you know George Washington and all the people who are founding fathers but it's like I always have the question why where were the black people I think we like to see an African-American Studies course is not just is something actually you do if you have time for it at my school we have African-American Culture Club and I don't that's good that's an amazing opportunity but not everyone can stay after school school is there for you to learn if I want to learn about my history it shouldn't be something that I have to do extra I really have to look really hard and fight for things that should be easy for me to find expression in a majority black school and I think it's hard because a lot of kids end up camp or my eyes I completely agree I don't have the time to take African-American studies class because I'm striving to get into these advanced placement courses so I can get into the college that I want to get into so it's like putting my my culture and cultural studies on the down side so I can go to a college that is prestigious. So like to see in these curricula for instance if there was an Afro-American literature class who would you want to see I think the 1st thought is who I'm tired of seeing I'm tired during Black History Month of only learning about Malcolm x. And Martin Luther King and then the teacher being like are you more of a Malcolm x. Or Martin Luther King or you argue passive resistance or you try to fight the man like I'm tired of just learning about the same 2 people every Black History Month and it would be great to go into a depth of black history further than not only you know activism and fighting for rights that's amazing I understand that that's the core of it but we learn why it is to learn about artists poets musicians Beethoven Michelangelo all of these great people that were so relevant to their history but what about like the Harlem Renaissance learning about all of these different people and how jazz like created a movement that sparked the nation and why people stole it from black culture and they became more popular for it there's so many stories that I do not know and those are the stories that I want to. My own education began at Beasley academic center on Chicago's South Side where unusually black history was a regular part of the curriculum I didn't have to choose when I was at Beasley Thomas Greene was the guidance counselor. Mr Greene tell me what does it mean to educate a black child that a black student all my guys if you're black Also it means the world you want to impart some knowledge to them you want them to be better than you think you take a special pride in working with your own people you can look in their eyes and you don't want to see your own reflection and you want them to be successful you want them to be successful and if they happen to be your can or your relative for real you really want them to be successful you want them though. Do better than you succeed become a doctor be a lawyer you can do anything. I've spoken to my friends my colleagues mentors even idols for this project and I've tried to construct a black history through arts and culture. I can imagine a moment when someone could set these stories in a book or they could be part of a school curriculum but as I've listened and reflect it more I've realized something I need to keep in mind that the simple act of learning was once one of the most fraught activities for black people in America. Enslaved people could be maimed or killed for reading then almost a century after the end of slavery people had to argue to the highest court in the land that black children were at least worthy of the most basic amenities like books in their classrooms. The arts music dance poetry making things connecting with people have been a primary means of passing on knowledge when you couldn't do it in a classroom. In a condition where formal education may not be possible self education is one of the most radical acts to undergo. To imagine a black textbook is not just to add stories to a broad history it is to counteract cincher ease of hate and segregation and is used to tell a broader world that it's a better place thanks to the love and the beauty of black people have poured into it despite efforts to prevent us from doing so. We should be proud of our achievements and we should continue to lift our voices and sing our own praises and recognize as our forefathers. Ancestors who lifted us up and brought us this far and it's up to us to lift the next generation up and move them forward also. And what would you do if you had been that black text book we would start with each of our cultures in their respective homes we would all individually walk our journeys we would describe how we crossed paths how we cross pollinated how we made beautiful new dances beautiful new songs. And they would all be like veins running through a body and they would travel back to their homes when they wanted to come together in convene when they wanted to. But understanding that we each beautiful in our own right. They could be in an Encyclopedia Brittanica with this common Mading story this is America. And what of our textbooks were black crews presented by name a backless the series is produced by Natalie Moore and Steve that it's to reduce listening production the b.b.c. Radio 4 a.b.c. Sons music radio broadcasts. Relax this festive season with the peaceful Christmas mindful mix. And uninterrupted flow of choral festive favorites to help you on why. RINGBACK RINGBACK Undermines music mixes listen on the free b.b.c. Sounds up this Christmas. Now it's time for beyond belief it is only re Hello the Middle East is going through a period of turmoil involving the relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran they're both Muslim countries but the Saudis follow the one hobby Sunni tradition while the Iranians are Shia. Power and Politics lie at the heart of their rivalry but their religious differences give their conflicts legitimacy. 50 years ago Saudi Arabia and Iran were friends but the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979 changed all that suddenly Saudi Arabia had a rival to its position of supremacy in the Gulf and one which followed an alternative Islamic path today that rivalry is being played out in places like Syria Yemen and Bahrain are their differences irreconcilable how can they be addressed so as to bring stability to the Middle East join me to discuss the tensions between so idea read in Iran or Dr Simon may bomb director of the Richardson Institute for Peace Studies and senior lecturer in international relations at Lancaster University Dr a scoundrel lecturer in comparative political theory at Goldsmiths University of London and Dr McDowell we are Rashid visiting professor at the London School of Economics Middle East Center Simon to what extent is religion at the heart of this conflict I think in your opening gambit you suggest that religion is central and it plays a really important role and I think you're right to say that but there's also other forces at play such as Power Quest for regional supremacy identities money or oil and taken together all these forces act as a sort of set of parabolic pressures that really drive the rivalry so a scoundrel in that list high high up does religion come I think it's really quite low on the list over the it depends on how you actually even understand religion because I mean any sort of historical perspective on this rover just shows that it really is a fairly recent vintage and of that dates back or comes to the for at least in its in every just guys with the Islamic Revolution of Iran in 1979 and obviously I think Simon was touching on something when he sort of said There are various of the forces that work whether it's actually a chair political it's about the politics of energy it's actually the role of the United States. It's an penetration into the region so there are lots of other factors at work and we need to understand religion always in that sort of both historical and sort of broader political perspective but our way highly do you place religion in the list of factors in this turmoil religion might be the rectory that is used by the leadership in both countries it has a mobilizing impact on the population but this is not the root cause of this rivalry this rivalry stems from a long tradition of searching for her Germany at a time Iran was manic in the Gulf region but after $979.00 Saudi Arabia began to be constructed as the alternative to Iran and that conflict continued Of course there are national interests that Mortie they this kind of rivalry and pepper to ated but is very very difficult for anybody studying this region to think that this is all a religious conflict some of the popular perception is that Saudi Arabia is changing that reform is in the air just give us a brief analysis of how you interpret that I think a lot of the stems from the emergence of the new Crown Prince Mohammed bin Solomon who set forward the vision to dramatically reform Saudi Arabia the kingdom to change the role of religion with then the Saudi state but also to set the Kingdom on a path moving beyond the reliance on oil we've we've seen that he set out different economic visions different political visions changing the social dynamics of the state and it's a modernizing vision that is put forward by Mohamed bin Salman but of course that has to be couched in these broader concerns about rising author a Tarion ism the crown prince's complicity and in the murder of Jamal Shoji and a range of other social forces that continue to be a cause for concern for many people and what about Iran because we know that there have been disturbances of Iran Yeah they have and they continue to this the. And there are a number of serious issues that are playing out across Iran Contra the economy concerning Iran's role in the region continued support for groups such as Hizbullah in Lebanon and the way in which all of this is a drain on the Iranian economy where people are struggling to buy food to survive on a daily basis we know that sanctions have bit the Iranian economy incredibly hard and that's had a damaging and devastating effect on the Iranian people as gander give us a little history of around before the revolution just leading up to the revolution because the Shah was overthrown and there were very dramatic results we can start with the path of a dynasties. The path of the Shah is your 1st his father Reza sure who was very much of or Thora Tarion modernized as it were undertook a whole series of reforms in the spheres of education in the sphere of sort of law as it were he abolished sort of Sharia courts and he angered the clergy so considerably because of this he also obviously forcibly or coercively remove the veil from the public square in the course of the 2nd World War he is removed because of a legit German sympathies his son Mohammed Reza is then installed as the Shah and then we see sort of gradually his sort of meteoric rise as it were with the support of the United States he's obviously a crucial ally in the course of the Cold War over time his legitimacy erodes until the point of the revolution but he was overthrown because of a variety of reasons and Ayatollah Khomeini came to power and the expectation was that he would allow a sort of democracy to continue and yet he created a theocracy based on clerical road the revolutionary coalition which every through him was fairly broad ranging from nationalist liberals to Marxist Leninist to the religious is a misfortune. Within those forces you know there's a range of opinion from more liberal to more militant and radical above that was obviously you know because of Article many status in 12 a Shiite religious hierarchy he was very much seen as both a sort of a prima religious figure especially because he had been in exile for 14 years resisting the shore as it were and obviously launching into constant sort of rhetorical and bombastic critiques of the Shah's regime so he's very much both a religious leader and a political leader at this point and then obviously as the revolution continues we see religious forces mobilize to shape the post-revolutionary Constitution and in so doing they in shrine a prince or whatever without effect here which basically means sort of guardianship of the jurist and that is sort of one of the key articles which obviously enshrined clerical rule obviously you know this wasn't a vision by for many of the revolutionaries and there was a lot of blood and sort of violence in the process we turn to Saudi Arabia and the 1920 s. At the end of the Ottoman empire when the Ottoman Empire had been overthrown and the Khalifa had gone the Sultan had gone the House of Saud took over and it was a monarchy based on an interpretation of Sharia law unlike Iran which had a strong and long history of statehood and the area that came to be known as the kingdom of Saudi Arabia didn't really have a centralized authority part of it was under Ottoman ruled especially the jazz the western part where Mecca and Medina are but because of the 1st World War and Britain was looking for allies to use against the Ottoman Empire and roll back autumn and rule in Arabia they decided to support one off the leaders or the chieftains who happened to be in that region and that is the as I would rulers and mainly in Saudi. So the formation of the state dependent on 2 important factors the 1st one was the strong military and financial support of Britain and the 2nd one the population was mobilized by the will have a tradition which is mistakenly considered to be Sunni Islam but it is a very narrow interpretation of Sunni Islam that happens to be radical in its interpretations but the way it was sort of formed in Saudi Arabia was a mechanism to unify people and launch jihad against anybody who resisted the authority of the as so so they managed to unify and mobilize tribal group sedentary population nomadic even population so the formation of the Saudi state has a religious base and probably only backs that and Israel shared with Saudi Arabia that kind of focus on on religion as a ground or rationale for that state formation so Simon the fact that Sidey is Sunni. The Shia want fundamental difference does that make to the people of those countries Well I think as majority said it it's important to note that while harbors and is a fringe sect of Sunni Islam some scholars have suggested that it's only by virtue of the vast petro dollars that the Saudi state has on its reserves that it's able to propagate this vision of will harvest Islam which is deeply intolerant of other Muslims particularly of Shia Muslims the Wahhabi messages is a return to the formative stages of a slum a very puritanical vision of Islam as you say I have seen posters that emanated from Saudi Arabia that said she is are not Muslims are the enemy of Muslims Yeah and there are numerous examples of clerics within Saudi Arabia they have voted such statements with regard to the Saudi Kingdom's own Shia population now. Part of this is a consequence of the perception that not only is she not Muslims but that they are venerating particular things that should should not be venerated when when God is the only thing to be of that stature So for example she built shrines and they worship at sacred burial sites and for Saudi Arabia in the one hobbies that is not is I don't retreat I guess it's counter there are many different forms of Islam and they have various differences themselves and the points of divergence within them but obviously 12 a Shia Muslims as practiced largely in Iran and Iraq and Lebanon on battery and on a friend of a number of other places do venerate the descendants of the very to the base of the family of the prophet coming through the genealogy of the prophets daughter Fatima and his son in law. So obviously these figures have a very very of a sacred status in share Islam let's just look at some of the main events which have struck the rivalry between Sidey Arabia and Iran start with the Iranian revolution in 1979 What impact did that have on side here it did they feel threatened by the sudden appearance of an alternative Islamic state on the northern side of the ribbon Gulf absolutely the Saudi kingdom described itself as the only Islamic state in the Arab world and in the Middle East because other countries like Egypt Iraq Syria they had sort of like a nationalist ideologies which would condemned by the Saudi regime but in 1979 the Iranian revolution took the form of an Islamic republic then the competition was fierce over the sacred because Saudi Arabia can no longer claim that it is the only Islamic state and in fact it's a monarchy and there are no monarchies in Islam and here we have a. Another model of Islamic governance Simon you know it's a really interesting time in the in the formative stages of the Islamic republic because what we see is the Saudi state trying to struggle and figure out how it deals with this New Republic and the Islamic Republic trying to position itself across the Middle East and across the world and in the early stages of that period the Islamic Republic was trying to speak to wall Muslims only about 15 percent of the world's Muslims are Shia so they were very careful to try and speak to the collective all Muslims across the world but what the Saudi state did very carefully was they sought to frame this as a Shia revolution thus trying to reduce the appeal of the events in Iran across the broader sunny world if you will trying to reduce the appeal that may have resulted in more revolutionary movements emerging across the Middle East a scandal that has moved on to a 2nd incident that occurred there around Iraq War from 1988 and in that war which caused many many deaths and damage to the economies of both Iraq and Iran the side the supported Iraq yes Saddam Hussein invades Iraq and if anything you could say the invasion actually helped to consolidate the revolutionary regime which obviously then did to tap into both deep nationalist sentiments was he to defend the country but also various sort of Shiite tropes of you know going to the front so what it must have done was to the increase the tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia because here was a hostile state supporting Iran indeed in what was a hostile war against Iran of course seen as deeply antagonistic and we see this then come to the boil in the inflamed rhetoric of people like Ayatollah Khomeini who increasingly do see Saudi Arabia as on the side of the United States and you know this is a global imperialism and these sorts of things and this is why it's important to understand again and reiterate constantly that it is very much a political. Because Robin actually referring France to Saudi Arabia as a Sunni power want to actually use the term of American Islam Islam and recovery let's bring it right up to date are comparatively up to date Simon they are but Spring uprisings which brought hopes for democracy throughout North Africa and other parts of the Arab world those appeared to be quite secular people who gathered in Tahrir Square for instance to protest against Mubarak were Christians and Muslims there didn't seem to be a religious element to that was there a sense in which it was taking religion I took the discourse and I wonder highways around inside the Arabia reacted to the Arab Spring I think that's a really good point to me I'm thinking immediately Bahrain right now what the protesters on February 14th which anting not sunny not she just behind me and that's a very clear articulation of a of a non-religious political identity and that been a long history of sectarian tensions across Bahrain but this was a group of people a large group of people saying no it's not about religion would just buy her a nice wanting a better political future but of course but the Arab uprisings offered a degree of hope not just to the protesters but also to the Saudis and Iranians to sense the opportunity to dramatically redraw the the nature of the Middle East geopolitically to increase their influence at the cost of the other modality Well there was a mixed reaction in Saudi Arabia and they were very selective in supporting some revolution and causing a counter-revolutionary trend in other countries so in Bahrain the Saudis they succeeded actually in sectarian izing the uprising and depicting it as Iran meddling in the affairs of Bahrain but also in Egypt the Saudis played the counter-revolution of role and they succeeded in bringing the military back to power in 2013 after the coup in Syria they intervened and it became a battleground between the. The democracy forces and the groups that the Saudis supported and those where Islam missed and you had let's just stop at Syria for a moment because that's the crucial case I think because in Syria you have a a Shia leader somewhat heretical wanted in our white Bashar al Assad ruling a Sunni majority that must of crystallized this tension between Iran and Saudi Arabia because they they both came into that conflict and different sides I don't think the religious identity of Bashar Assad was an issue that Saudi Arabia saw the Syrian revolution as an opportunity to wean I said off Iranian support and cut that important sort of path from Tehran to Beirut so their religious element wasn't really there but of course you know in order to mobilize people in Saudi Arabia to support a uprising their religious rhetoric of sectarianism was invoked highlighting how sad it is actually belongs to this minority sect and minority sect within the broad Shiite Islam if you go to Iran for example they don't consider him like them because he belongs to a specific sect and that a very very small minority Well let me remind you that you're listening to beyond belief and today we're discussing the tensions between 2 Muslim states Saudi Arabia and Iran tensions which threaten to further destabilize the entire region which side holds the upper hand gritters the danger of an escalation and to all out war and with me I'm a doll we are a shade discounter Siddig and Simon Mabel the rusher Roya Hakakian was born in Iran but her family fled the country in 1979 she is Jewish and her memoir about coming of age in a post revolutionary Iran is called Journey from the land of no. And exile she's written many critical articles about the present regime and particular on the restrictions on the rights of women I asked her to explain why the major restriction in Iran that women have been rebelling against for the past several years and most significantly in the last couple of years is the absence of choice in dress code and in Saudi Arabia there are all there seems to be it a little bit of opening these days in detail remains a major burden on women and that the recent lifting of the ban on driving is quite new but it's one of the many things that they have yet to achieve including you know the right to travel the right to having the custody of their own children and so on and so forth what evidence do you have that there's a great demand among the women of side to read the underground for change for more freedom in Iran there has been the most significant political unrest since the 1979 in every video and every news clips that have come out of there on You see women taking the lead in conducting these demonstrations in checking the slogans and there is no surprise why they are in that position because they're the ones who have been consistently in the past 10 years conducting demonstrations conducting public protest against the idea of things against their backing of women from sports stadiums RINGBACK to the banning of women from. Other public events in Iran so they are the ones who actually are the season political activists and they know how to conduct successful then instructions in Saudi Arabia against similarly to Iran and some of the most important outspoken voices. Against tyrannical systems in both countries have been women and they are languishing in presence in both countries you've been quoted as saying that and the competition between the 2 regimes to of the more moderate Islamic alternative women have been the beneficiary so why do you believe that because it's Iranian women and Saudi women are facing a similar pressure from their religious leadership which manifests oftentimes in governmental pressures they are realizing that they have a shared enemy and I think the more they see themselves as victims of their own governments the more that solidarity grows within them and I think one of the most uplifting signs of this sense of solidarity between the 2 women is the idea that they send each other through social media many video messages of togetherness and of support as in the white Wednesdays campaign all the way. Campaign is a campaign that was inspired by a leading Iranian feminist name I see I mean a job who while walking down a few little streets of London one day she decides to remove her dark and she went on to post her own photograph with her hair exposed on social media page and she invited other women who are there are to share their moments secretly the movie Their her job some streets and she was in her native with thousands of submissions of photographs and videos and so it is simple Facebook page ended up becoming a mass movement called the white Wednesdays campaign subsequently when women in Saudi Arabia got. This campaign which is why it's that they you know have been submitting their own images their own videos of you know moments of secretly experiencing freedom in your own countries I think taking away the mandatory dress code or the mandatory he job is the equivalent of what the Berlin wall wants to the Cold War once you take his job away or you give it choice to women you are just not telling the entire system that was Roya Hakakian I find it very interesting when she compared the head job issued to the burden war on the impact that have on the Soviet Union what do you make of the I have to disagree here it is absolutely ridiculous to. Pick on the hijab and make it an item off liberation all the discussion so far does not take into account that some women wear the hijab because of that culture because of their tradition because of their age and also it is a choice but I do agree that state should not interfere in what women wear apart from they decency and respect the public space the hijab is complex and to say that it should be abolished is absolutely ridiculous simply because it does not look at gender equality beyond the appearances and the consumption that we live in it is an age of image it is an age of mobilisation on social media and on both sides the hijab or the veil is used either to assert a certain kind of liberal feminism or Islamic piety discounter What did you make of that interview following the revolution as we saw a mass mobilization of women from far from traditional provincial butt. Ground's who might not appear to be the sort of conventional liberated woman that we're very accustomed to here in the u.k. But you know these are probably softer scenes sort of you know numerous sort of women vice presidents diplomats academics and so on and so forth so to reduce it to the question of her job I think is really really deeply flawed women's liberation us to be broadened beyond this question Who is winning this war between or this conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia where does the balance of power lie Eskander I don't think the coming to power of Trungpa ministration was a boon for certain elements within the Saudi regime has definitely been Tetra mental for Iran I just wonder Simon where we've got to the moment when tensions are very high is it at all conceivable that this could lead to I tried war it's conceivable it's possible I don't think it's likely there is a great deal at stake for both countries they have these these majestic visions of their future think of the Vision 2030 put forward by Mohamed bin sun and the Iranian state is obviously under so much financial pressure and I think that if we look at that there's so many reasons why the 2 states should try and deescalate of course for pragmatic economic reasons because they wouldn't be able to achieve their future visions if there was a conflict between the 2 modality any comment to make a not yeah I think war is unlikely but one issue that remains is anymore city that is 40 in the media its own social media and it is used actually for domestic audiences as Saudi Arabia exaggerate their training and threat and I'm sure the rain Ians do the same even during that recent attack on the 2 oil fields in Saudi Arabia their rhetoric the anti Shiite rhetoric that religious element was brought in again after it had subsided for several years and Iran was framed as this thread the trees Shiite country so that plays very well with domestic audience. Who are trained to accept and appreciate that kind of threat Rick what you all seem to be suggesting if I can summarize is that religion is not the main cause of this conflict but it is used by each side to the just a miser their own argument I'd like to ask each one of here a final question why optimistic are you that relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran can improve its counter I'm not optimistic that there will be dead talks between Iran and Saudi Arabia in the short term if anything I think as a result of trumps a very aggressive campaign against Iran we're more likely to see a rightwing more security focused figure come to power in the next presidential election which isn't going to do any favors for settling their disagreements MacDowell I think the Saudis will be restrained by their own military capabilities and they cannot launch a war on their own but I can see from the Saudi side they actually play down the possibility of war and they are adopting a reconciliation approach to the issue so imo I think that in the short term there are some structural reasons that will mean that it's difficult to get a reconciliation and a resolution of tensions but in the longer term it's in both country's interests to have a more positive relationship that can lead to economic growth and that can be a benefit to both Riyadh and to her well that offer this program my thanks to a scoundrel but we are Rashid and Simon maybe I'll be back again next Monday with a Christmas week edition of beyond belief when we'll be discussing c.s. Lewis is great Christian allegory The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe I hope you'll join me. Beyond Belief was presented by Annie Ray and produced in sulphide by heavenly and if you missed any part of today's program beyond belief is available as a download on the b.b.c. Sounds app. Words mean more this day than we ever have just bored old stories stories of musical masterpieces it's profound. True Carol ignites my love in my heart for my daughter. The new series of soul music on b.b.c. Radio 4. This song really represented sisterhood that we would never in a 1000000 years have chosen but I won't for a 2nd ever give up soul music Wednesday mornings at 9. This is b.b.c. Radio 4 it's 5 o'clock time for pm with Evan Davis. Hello their new parliament new M.P.'s even something of a new look conservative party. This new House of Commons has the most M.P.'s have been educated in state comprehensive schools and the new insight particularly like these have been from comprehensive state schools and there are signs that the House of Commons is becoming more diverse but that still leaves the question What will the conservatives actually do in office we'll speak to one of the authors of their manifesto one idea under consideration stop prosecuting those who fail to pay their t.v. License to avoid this kind of thing they literally came and took it away they had a warrant for the rest of us just an oversight when a person who well nobody knows who lives should have their freezer 38 which is more important than the t.v. Relations Also tonight concerns that pastors at a church in London are exploiting their congregation and a crisis in forests across Europe. Mordred rooted in the forest because it can provide more sure you would think of the trees and all the soil would just fall down so it's really best not to do any where there's been such a steep mountain forests like this one with the b.b.c. News throughout the hour Jim Lee newly elected M.P.'s have gathered in Westminster at the start of a week in which the government wants them to vote through Boris Johnson's breaks it deal the prime minister is also expected to announce a new culture and Welsh Secretary his own political correspondent Jessica Parker as a host of new Conservative M.P.'s descend on Westminster Downing Street wants to keep up the momentum the plan is to try to get the withdrawal agreement bill introduced this week with a Nish will vote before the Christmas break bars Johnson's broader aim is of course to get the u.k. Out of the e.u. And into the transition period by the 31st of January and aim that seems now almost certain given his substance. Commons majority and many reshuffle is on the cards with 2 Cabinet jobs up for grabs the Welsh Secretary and Culture Secretary it's expected today's positions will be filled today with speculation that there could be a more fundamental reshuffle in the New Year the shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry who's tipped to run for the Labor leadership has worn Schill So one of her former colleagues accusing her of telling extraordinary lies was Thornberry her strongly denied a claim by the ex Labor m.p. Caroline Flint that she told a colleague she was glad her constituents weren't as stupid as there's no sweetness Flint lost her seat in the Don Valley constituency in South Yorkshire which had voted strongly to leave in the e.u. Referendum. Hundreds of supposed musters mistresses have won an important judgment against the post office and its computer system which they blame for big shortfalls in their accounts many lost their livelihoods or were even sent to prison because of the discrepancies Here's our personal finance correspondent Simon Gompertz the judgment provides weighty vindication of the postmaster's campaign for justice coming less than a week after the post office agreed to 58000000 pound court settlement the judge said the Post Office is horizon id system wasn't remotely robust at the time they had to use it and had a significant number of bugs the ruling gives the $34.00 postmasters and postmistress is found guilty of criminal charges more hope that their convictions can be overturned the post office apologised but said the court had recognised the improvements it had made to the system the Supreme Court has begun hearing the case of a woman who says the health service should pay for her to have surrogate children in America after she was left infertile as a result of n.h.s. Negligence.