Brand new uniforms one week to collapsing 2 weeks later over the past month lots of people have been trying to get and says. This is a statement I hope I will live a half the way the industry was changing around Thomas Cook faster than they could keep up there's clearly issues here about management failure like I was I might be captain of the ship when I went down to look a how much they were borrowing I think they need to really examine their own conscience only Sally's story for this to find answers because if you. For the past 4 weeks filing for has been speaking to the company's former employees and senior executives they describe a complete consumed by a crisis of its own making. This company was a 1000000000 in debt to me it was almost like game over are we ever going to be able to do enough to survive. There were too many levels of leadership empires built to the detriment of what we should have been doing I genuinely think people did not realize how bad this it got by the end tonight we can tell you the real story of what happened. It starts in the front room of a terrorist house in the West Midlands during the small hours of Monday September 23rd but just on the safe with the news on am just sat there kind of waiting really waiting for it to hit 2 o'clock to see what I see what happened attempts to rescue Thomas Cook have failed the tunnel for example morning the Civil Aviation Authority said the tour operator had ceased trading with immediate effect I just could not say a computer like Thomas Cook how it could disappear overnight with the amount of people that were going to be affected by it my initial reaction was just straight away and this horrible. You know the same feeling as being told that you've lost somebody very close to you Kimberly Jeffrey spent 15 years working for Thomas Cook most recently in a dream job managing the company's travel agent in Telford Thames center the 1st person I picked up the phone and called was my mom. What did she say she didn't know what was wrong so she was like you know what's the matter tell me what's the matter what's happened and I couldn't even get my words out to where so I said you know it's gone Thomas Cooks What was it about Thomas Cook that was special it's got to be the heritage that it had 178 years now with the travel company has got that there's just so much history there wasn't just a holiday comply Kimberly's right it wasn't just a holiday. I'm pretty I've come to Cambridge to meet Dr Piers Brendan who literally wrote the book on Thomas Cook behind these heavy steel doors of the seemingly endless shelves of one of the city's archives well telescope's history has been bullied in an enormous amount of archival shelves boxes and papers and everything it's a kind of treasury of travel to really understand the company Dr Brendan sais you need to understand its founder Thomas Cook was a teetotal Baptist boy and during the Industrial Revolution in 1041 he led the very 1st Thomas Cook excursion a train journey from Leicester to last breath to attend a temperance rally Thomas Cook developed the concept of the package holiday particularly after the 2nd World War because the 2nd revolution occurred in travel during the 1950 s. And 1960 s. Here for the 1st time a new class of people could go abroad cheaply and efficiently in this river Lucian re new form of travel namely the airplane only by now it's found is legacy it started to fade and the price of this is that this man Thomas Cook who had been teetotal and temperance fanatic the company eventually became the owner of the $18.00 to $30.00 Club which more or less advertised 6 son and food. Remember this was club 18 to 30 the company that once attractive hundreds of complaints after using the advertising slogan Espana I think the 1st Thomas Cook would have been appalled by the development of the company because he didn't. Ever consider profit as his prime motive he considered that what he was engaged in was a mission to the masses you probably got one of the longest understandings of this company from its formation to now and now you've watched it go bust and none of it could be saved what do you think about that I think it's a complete tragedy Don't forget I mean Thomas Cook had to go through 2 world wars it had to go through the Depression and it survived all those experiences what it did not survive was the greed of management. And there was good money to be made in people's holidays. We're going to make sure you go to Thomas Cook. Because we drink the middleman 980 s. British people took just over 20000000 holidays abroad so by 2004 that figure was over 40000000 almost half of them package deal. Just give you Thomas good. People wanted sunshine I mean you know going on holiday in the u.k. Don't want to run them there on the tour but optically excites a damage blast loans a former managing director Thomas Cook rival to u.k. And suddenly you could go to the carries you could go to the ballet Erica Hill and you could go to China Zia you know guaranteed sunshine and actually fantastic hotel swimming pools and great peaches and warm seized this woman at a price you could afford and of course the big panic all travel agents in those days which is running out of brochures and I mean there were queues. Travel agents because people were just desperate to get their hands on the latest one is just astonishing. So thinking about Thomas Cook How was that feud within the industry well great name high recognition respect and a good reputation with customers but I think at the end of the day they probably were never became a great holiday company in the sense of financially running it brilliantly I think they cared about the customer and one of them to have a great holiday we've spoken to Thomas Cook staff who were there for the boom years and they say that's right they really did want people to have a great holiday for them working wasn't just a job it was a passion Dave Crighton was one of Thomas Cooks pilots. Who used to live under the flight path and because also I just was always want to play until just all I wanted to ask to take the time. And I always remember seeing the plane I think it was 2 or 3 years old and thinking wow to the size of things everything is big when your child than you grow all the planes to get small little big things when we met him near his home in Cheshire he pulled out his phone to show us his favorite landing over the desert into the bright lights of Las Vegas museum on you it's a mansion. So although when you look at the video you think your figure not up very quickly but it happens very quickly and see you you're about 10 miles out of the name degree angle of the room with me and all of sudden you probably do the the toughest one of the toughest approaches in the world to do during this period of 4 to. Recon was up to no room for ever but eyes still what everybody flies for because you can have the ability to do that. Part fly in a 60000000 pound airplane you know. You can't buy that. A lot why we love it and the planes day flew for Thomas Cook were full of paying passengers all told Thomas Cook's customers spent billions on the holidays which made Dave question how the company managed to run out of money I guess I'm about the situation just because I think it was. Resolvable. The problems last stomach there's been there for for the last 12 years really is when the the real problem started which is bad decisions and it was a real acushla to calmly wish to spend on businesses that came with debt and eventually these businesses didn't then produce the profits that it was supposed to bushel of that. Let's stop and look at that when did things start to go wrong for Thomas Cook every farmer executive we've spoken to points to the same year 2007 that was the year Thomas Cook was flying highest worth almost $3000000000.00 pounds its chief executive at the time was a flamboyant 53 year old spanning it man well 10 Lenovo are known as Manny It started out in the company's printing department 3 decades earlier this is him interviewed by Evan Davis on Radio 4 s bottom line holidays are so important to this country of people was for the service of perhaps the trigger slow different approach to the difficult times when you could have been the phone for the consumer close on spend. Money wanted to expand in 2007 Thomas Cook's executives told us they were expecting him to merge the company with one of its rivals 1st choice but just before the deal went through they got a couple money was going to merge with another rival Instead my travel the deal transformed Thomas Cook from a small package holiday company to a travel group with its own tour operator and an airline all listed on the stock exchange but it meant getting into debt really into debt my travel was already 619000000 pounds in the red when they merged with it Dermot blast one from 2 couldn't believe what Thomas Cook was doing what assets were they getting from my travel. Uk like don't get it you know it was poorly run that had huge bones because they went through their own financial crisis a few years earlier it's a bearing on my mind what was the view of the rest of the industry twice cut management a suppose in a nutshell I don't think their costs were as low as they could have been so they are a higher cost base than the competitors I think their management information wasn't good I think their revenue management systems weren't a match either I don't didn't overanalyze long as we follow actually beat them every year that was falling despite these problems Thomas Cook's buses were well rewarded the year after the my travel deal money from tellin of took home over 7000000 pounds in pay and bonuses company documents reveal 5000000 if that was just one Burress specifically awarded for merging companies and cutting costs 5000000 pounds almost 8 times his annual salary and around 330 times what Stephen Kenny was paid for working cabin crew this is my uniform it's a 3 piece suit waistcoats obviously transfer the jacket Stephen was one of those who join Thomas Cook from my travel in the merger much less uniform I have a look like a Portland's red coat it was a blue coat but it looked like a red coat for an account of over the years it's evolved into something a bit more tasteful shall we say at his home a few miles from where he worked at Manchester Airport Steven remembered his pride in being part of the new company when he walking through the terminal people look at you and they envy is not the right word but they look at you and they go great job there is a. Respect for doing your job because they know when push comes to shove in a major city you're the only person they can turn to. Later driving through the city Steven told me what he learned from working in the travel business fail to prepare prepare to fail and I religiously live by that every single day as you have no one else to blame if something goes wrong even up and it's down to Stevens buses could have listened to his advice by now Thomas Cook's debt a grown from around $900000000.00 in 2007 to 1100000000 in 2010 just paying off the interest cost a fortune competitor blast and again you don't come to a co-op deal which in my own view but I mean I wasn't alone I mean it was jaw dropping we just couldn't believe it but it's actually even worse than that this was 2011 money from 10 and a vote was still running Thomas Cook in a move which we've been told stunned even his own executives he decided to merge the company's high street travel agents with those of their rival co-op travel Mr Funtown one of our declined an interview but we've been told the deal meant Thomas Cook ended up with less rather the more control over what the stores were doing so I was then talking to the person in charge of it and I said well why don't you just cut the commission that you're paying them and for if they can't do that I said what you've lost control of your own shops Yes So all these Thomas Cook shops you don't now control no it's all part the joint venture in you thinking this is madness you've lost you've lost control of your retail churning company insiders also question the deals logic the Internet was biting chunks out of the travel agent business so why acquire more travel agents the co-op also received a guarantee Peyman. $40000000.00 pounds over 4 years and Thomas Cook had to make sure they got it in aug 20 Levon after issuing 3 profit warnings money from $101.00 of our left in total Thomas Cook paid him over 50000000 pounds pay benefits and bonuses at Manchester pilot Dave Crighton says that by now it was increasingly clear which parts of the business were making money and which went the long haul part of business was the jewel in the crown and having worked in the long haul flight every week there always full as when I say faltering and 25 people it was 10 empties I'd be surprised we got a royal mail contracts 521-0000 cargo a day the numbers are amazing That was incredible cash cow for the queen and the shop so then cost as book if you want a really good website and everything online it would not be of the shop and that's probably the biggest problem that we've had for the years of just not being a tool efficient enough money from 11 of our successor was a Thomas Cook outsider Harriet Green recorded his speaking at a conference worked for an electrical distribution company surround yourself with people better than you with different skills whether it's in late 2011 she emailed Thomas Cook's chairman with the message this is why you need me it worked she got the job and she did stop turning the company around its share price went up but we've spoken to pharma colleagues who also point to the 10s of thousands a year in hotel bills Ms Green ran up all the millions spent on private consultants all the almost $5000000.00 she took her in pay bonuses we asked Ms Green for an interview she didn't respond after 2 years she left. By then 2014 the company's debts were up to 1300000000 pounds and they were paying over 100000000 pounds a year in interest that year the new chief executive Peter Funkhouser entered the ring to wrestle with the monster on his balance sheet. Here we are in the city of London London's financial district you can tell because the soup's a bit sharper the buildings were a bit people walk at a better faster pace and we had to speak to the man who predicted turbulence ahead . Stuart Gardens an analyst with Paralympic bank it was his job bluntly to recommend if you should buy or sell shares in Thomas Cook your advice there is to me an idea. But when you looked at the Company's a camp's alarm bells for me they started ringing in 2016 it was about then I realised that the debt levels at Thomas crew were actually not coming in the way that the management had expected nor the way that I had expected and I was increasingly concerned that if the consumer for any reason not going on holiday or perhaps changing your holiday plans to sue a tighter budget you would have a company that fish real trouble not that raising the alarm warning many friends and I was fairly unpopular and I think I was pretty unpopular with management and I think actually I may have been the only cell from the city at the time the only person to tell investors you should sell his company exactly it put simply Stewart says Thomas Cook spent so much money paying back its debts it had too little left to rely on when something went wrong like a heat wave that many people chose to holiday at home or a volcano grabbing European flights or brags that the way to optimistic of you have host stronger financial position would. Be operationally I don't think they were full so they just didn't mend their finances as quickly as they should have done and I think they should've done this well in advance of where it became too late surely all the blame for that must be on them the can't be anybody else. Can anybody else yet it wasn't always easy to see what was going on at Thomas Cook from looking at his accounts they used what some of called aggressive accounting including exceptional items supposedly one off events that have the effect of disguising the company's losses but year after year there was another different exceptional item filing for spoken to senior company insiders who say even they didn't realize the extent of Thomas Cook's problems they've asked us to protect their identities for fear of speaking out their careers so we've used actors to speak their words we were told we're carrying this debt from a deal that was done many years ago and now we've got this baggage around our necks what that means is we have to sell about 2000 holidays to even pay a very small piece of that debt back what we're doing is essentially working to pay back the interest or did you feel about that. There was anger around surely at the very very top whoever is accountable whether that's accountants coming in and audit in the business or whether the senior management whoever was responsible for that to me it was almost like game over and we have are going to be able to do enough to survive Thomas Cook's debt kept on climbing all the way up to 1400000000 pounds through 201-520-1620 extension 1728 team during this time its chief executive Peter Frank I was there took over 8000000 pounds there it did go 2 years without getting a bonus I think Peter was a very focused individual am what he wanted and what he was determined to achieve this insider regularly with Thomas Cook's bosses in the run up to its collapse she says that despite his dead the company kept on spending money there were a lot of projects start in the company the ended up being failed projects and maybe the company didn't listen when people said that won't work or do it a different way so there was a lot of wasted money over the past 12 months our insiders say she feared the company did not have a coherent plan there were too many levels of leadership empires built to the detriment of what we should have been doing maybe people believed Thomas Cook was too big to fail not in an arrogant sense but we being close to the edge before I genuinely think people did not realize how bad this had got by the end. Of File on 4 has learned the civil aviation authority of financial advisers monitoring Thomas Cook since spring of this year that's months before the company went into liquidation to most people however the 1st public sign of a crisis came a few months later in May Thomas Cook reported a 1500000000 pound loss most of it due yes you guessed it to my travel the company Thomas Cook mode. In 2007. At the company's London offices Peter worked desperately to save it and at last it looked as if the Chinese frozen tourism company might bail them out in return for control of Thomas Cook for weeks insiders told us their bosses promised it would be all right this deal will work but the amount of money needed to save Thomas Cook kept going up and up at the last minute the company asked the British government to provide 200000000 pounds to secure the deal and the government refused. The headlines scoring the travel Thomas calls to Scottish ministry a lapsed after last ditch talks to save the business. $150000.00 holiday makers were left stranded and had to be brought home by the government it was the country's biggest peacetime repatriation and cost the taxpayer an estimated $100000000.00 pounds but more importantly 1000 people in the u.k. Lost their jobs I was so confident that everything was going to go through now so I just thought it was not a no brainer and I still nobody don't understand why somebody didn't really get this deal with a lie. And that's just life sadly nobody will ever know the answer instead pilot they Crighton is facing up to life after Thomas Cook he's at a training day at a hotel in Manchester teaching Thomas Cook pilots how to prepare for a modern day job interview certain size in front of you you've got 20 minutes to solve problems starting now. To get the 600 pilots now just narrow the job still get the task is obviously very difficult and that they've all flown all over the world same airplane sim of ours I don't know how do you decide. That you know if you've only got 200 jobs and 300 people apply how do you short them. And even if he were to be offered a job tomorrow Dave says the hiring and training schedules of the various airlines mean he wouldn't actually get paid until January 2020 the biggest problems are gone the job till next summer the only thing not work the next summer you gotta start looking to work abroad and then that creates more problems because that's not really it is going to have an effect on family life of trying not think sea water or Oscar that the watch that you've put 20 years of your life into this this company is not quite family but it is a lot to begin with so it is a bereavement nor is Dave the only one left picking up the pieces the exception of when we dug died 20 odd years ago this is probably been the worst week of that. I wouldn't wish it on anyone at home ec scabby manager Stephen Kenny is also looking for a new employer this afternoon I go for my 1st job since interview I don't know what to expect the most ironic thing is as I walk past it watching it being built renovated ripped out painted decorated everything for the past year not once did I ever think in all my days I will be crossing the door to go inside on. The prospect of. Is a terrifying. Stephen goes to the interview alone it isn't easy oh course when I was sat there I felt quite defeated it's not it's not me back a little bit going in there is just. To just. Tip it real. The best actor exposure feels real. Intel for Kimberly Jeffries the Thomas Cook store manager takes me back to the shore to shop front where she used to work inside the desks empty and the old photos complete stuck on the wall have been taken down. A shop all in darkness with a deal still in the window that would put in the week before last sister dark dark empty store Now how does it make you feel coming back here and saying this it does make me feel a bit sad in a bit it's just very surreal. What was your team like if you were to characterize them and describe them Calabria Yes they made me made each other laugh every single day crazy I don't think at every point in the team I can feel fancy you get the store shut Neron you're locked out of it. It would have been amazing if we would have been allowed a couple of days to within the store where Christmas could cram in and you know we could try and help and advice and I understand we would have a lot of angry customers may days that it would have probably been difficult for us but it was my store not just feel like I want to be back in there. While Kimberly Dave and Stephen rebuilding their lives the political post mortem of the company has started and when it senior executives a call to give evidence at the Business Select Committee things get ugly I'm sorry for not being able to turn this company at face can you see how the sleuth's this is a pill that was out of control is beautiful of Jesus' words how it's really a bit more true if you are willing to do something about it simply the fact you are doing the difficulties you complete was facing big events that lead to his demise with about the business that you know of those the final days this poor little boy did for failure in the end you couldn't just hide these numbers for ever they caught up with you is not the truth and I put massive into saving to call belief and I have to admit that the faith. Mr Frank I was a declined our request for an interview earlier today it was the turn of the auditors to face the select committee these were big city firms brought in paid by Thomas Cook to check on the health of a company you want them to audit it's almost again because they're now with the diocese but you all go to all the other firms would you do anything differently based on the knowledge that you've had from this dissolves will continue to challenge if we do it still designed to challenge is it just a continuation of what you've already done how do you do anything differently though I think the constructively challenge in each of the years of your report or all of the levels of goodwill over continue to do the. Green the money from 11 of our Thomas Cooks of the 2 most recent chief executives a Jew to give evidence tomorrow committee chair Rachel Reeves says they too need to be held to account I think the last 3 chief executives and their teams have got to take some responsibility for what happened at Thomas Cook for and amassing such huge amounts of debt for the aggressive accounting techniques which hit the true state of the finances of the business after the strategy that they were pursuing a huge change in the travel market and so what will taking responsibility look like in your eyes but I think taking responsibility manes handing back some of the money that you have been remunerated with running the business I think we should get a claw back bonuses and salary when directors are culpable for running a company into the ground but do you should also have checks and balances in the checks and balances are the the auditor's other regulators but I think all of them have questions to answer about the extent to which they were providing those checks and balances the extent to which they're asking the tough questions that maybe the directors didn't want to hear and didn't want to we've been here before haven't we time and again. We have and we don't want to be back here in 6 months or a year's time so the collapse of a nother British company and again how the orders in the regulators fell to 6 coming and what about those regulators what about the government what were they doing when Thomas Cook went under in the days before it went into liquidation when the British government was asked to bail out the company no minister spoke to Thomas Cook's executives in Germany news ever 380000000 euro government bailout loan to keep that part of Thomas Cook's business flying was met with applause. A video of this reaction quickly went viral online. In Manchester former pilot Dave Crighton sits overlooking one of the city's old canals still coming to terms with the fact his government refused to keep his airline flying. In the ruins knowing that the. Thought of the whole closing down has been a shock to me because I always fly the planes I say only people are on the money what the seat prices are you think things are the biggest feeling that part of it was salvageable in fact internal Thomas Cook documents seen exclusively by this program show its airline business where Dave worked was on track to make 129000000 pounds profit this year at the select committee was asked if he could have sold the airline business he agreed it might have been a solution to paying off the debt he's north along by the situation was if he was really sorry would make sure. That there's nothing stopping pressing the button on the 20th of September and painters all your 2 weeks early others said before you go look after the stuff if you really cared about was you would get us all speaking of that how's your job search going. And sitting patiently waiting for the phone to ring or to get an email to say. Would you like a job and. You just got to keep a level head and keep just trying to just help pay the mortgage for the next few months in Telford Kimberly got some unexpected news. All 555 Thomas Cook stores had to be bought by a rival travel firm she met up with her old colleagues in a local pub is the 1st time they've all been together since the day Thomas Cook went under that old store now has a new owner they have back the store will reopen tomorrow morning. The name is that and all of the shops are be me 8 that he or she is you know which is amazing and something that he would never the margin me think into. Feeling all the other did it was just quite heartbreaking really. It's more. If he didn't have it I am happy to hear you know. I am really hoping that this is going to want to work together again. I'm sure to do if not show up so it's just nice to be able to go back to their you know ready to get back in here. Staff are among the lucky ones Manchester Airport a company called aviator Manchester limited relied on Thomas Cook staff did a range of related jobs from ticketing to boarding earlier today aviator went into liquidation It has 351 people working for it across the country many more jobs might follow. Because there's a huge. Huge ripple effect is still carrying all the catering at the airport they've lost jobs the cleaners they've lost jobs it just goes on and on and on so it's not just not just have been affected. The manager Stephen is heading back to Manchester airport this time is for a job fair other travel firms are expanding new businesses are entering the market always used to get to work at least an hour before I was supposed to because they just gave me the tie. To prefer the self check in the suitcase thing and then just sit down and breathe. For half an hour and then it was we've got 300 people to take to New York bureau. People to take the sum Francisco and it's it's show time now what are you hoping to get out of staying and I think it's just to know that. There is there is opportunities out there that may not be the same opportunities that I had 10 days ago but there are opportunities out there that I can take advantage of or make the best of. Up until. Maybe a couple of days ago I really didn't know if I wanted to have a fly again I didn't know if I had it in the kind of. Had more wings clipped another grown buck and I'm thinking maybe I can fly again. The producers of tonight's final 4 we're told and done box next to the right a smart way of getting around in touch after look at the drawbar every morning next week. It's an exchange coming down much too fast it began with the crash. Of a medical secret at its heart Dr will see you now then the creation of a life the unborn need the Nene it becomes the project died to which changed everything. Now Time itself is it risks on things were on time and the conspiracy is getting deeper. Tracks here series 123 now on b.b.c. Sounds tracks Indigo a brand new thriller begins next Monday to Friday morning at 1045 on b.b.c. Radio 4. But to this evening inside health will look at a novel way of giving cancer therapy at home in 20 minutes that's after in touch with Peter White. Good evening was on telly tonight but obviously we'd much rather you stayed with us but we will be looking at the progress made in making program shed jewels more accessible for visually impaired people and old technology meets new to try to make getting around Lesia. Was going to screw the we want device on to it. A tiny bit fiddly. With it's on it's on Lucy Edwards has been road testing a smartphone on a stick where there's a bit more to it than that and you'll find out a little later but 1st last year the communications regulator Ofcom adopted a policy that all providers of electronic program guides those are the list of programs you can watch on t.v. And what times they're showing should be made excessive for the visually impaired people the new code states that speech output should be provided wherever possible programs that are assigned or which have already a description be made easy to find and text magnified where some companies offer this accessibly apps and there are some smart T.V.'s also which have electronic program guide or e.p. G.'s built in. Freeview the biggest platform in the u.k. Is working on implementing this and it's currently running a consultation digital U.K.'s head of external relations Liz Reynolds told me more so we have a new t.v. Service called Freeview play which brings live t.v. Channels and catch up services from the likes of the b.b.c. I Player and i.t.v. With their i.t.v. Hub so it brings normal broadcast t.v. Channels together with Internet delivered catch up services and I guess it's that new service that has allowed us to start working on this new excess ball t.v. Guide which relies on the Internet to be delivered so if people want to do this now officially impaired people want to do it what are the options for them at the moment there are a number of manufacturers who have accessible features they have text speech services but what's not available at the moment has the option to filter services according to whether you'd like orders description subtitles or signs services. So why are you running this consultation I mean you've been told what you've got to tell you why do you need to do that if I just explain what the example t.v. Guide will actually be so the user would choose to the relevant channel and be presented with a high contrast program guide They'd then use the remote control so the up down left right and Ok buttons to navigate around and find the program they'd like to watch and then select it and it will be automatically set to speech which the user can turn off in their t.v. Settings if they would prefer that and that they'll also be able to use the settings to choose what kind of content they prefer So whether it's order described or or signed with subtitles and then the guide will then filter those relevant programs and only these will be displayed both the live and on demand shows what we're consulting on is which numbers on the remote control to use we have 2 options available 555 or 258 and we've worked with the digital accessibility center and they have told us that their preference would be 555 because of the tactile indicator on the number 5 button on the remote control that's normally either a dash or adult which is slightly raised the alternative is 258 which would be a single line of numbers down the middle of the control yes a vertical line so that's right you just go down and if you're not very used to doing those things tactile e that would make it easier That's right so we have these 2 options and the reason why we're consulting is we'd like to have from a wide range of both industry stakeholders and potential users hopefully some of your listeners to gauge feedback on which option people would find best I mean obviously it's good to chat with people I mean a lot of blind people use telephones in the east you. Using telephones Can you just select a channel because it will hold the process out those channel numbers the time mentioned are currently used by other channels so what are those numbers that you'd like to choose what are they being used for at the moment there are other t.v. Services in the u.k. That rely on Freeview channels so you view the t.v. Now t.v. They all use our a.p.g. Listing and some of those services are as I said using those channel numbers for other services one of them is using it for a channel called Zee t.v. So obviously that has an impact on those channels were they to have to move yeah you'd have to get them to modify what they do before you could do what you want to do well they'd have to move to a different channel number and obviously that would take some planning from their side so we have to do this in a responsible manner so if it comes out as 555 if you know if people say that's the one we want because clearly that's the very best will they then have to move we will take all things into consideration and we will work closely with the other services to implement whatever is best for for users of the service will be an issue of negotiation or will you say if people have asked for that they will get it we don't dislike to hear from as many potential users as possible and the more people respond you know the more weight there is behind the argument we will be able to take those responses into consideration and and work with the other services will the accessible electronic t.v. Guide will it work on all T.V.'s it will work on Freeview play T.V.'s so people would need a Freeview play t.v. Or a set top box and about 60 percent of all smart T.V.'s sold now are Freeview play and they're available from the range of manufacturers at a range of price points. So that's what you would need to ask for it would be a good idea to go in and say Will I be able to get this service or does television the I'm buying That's right if people are buying a new t.v. Or a new box they should definitely ask their retailer if its Freeview play and that will then allow them to access the new guide what do you think the time scale on this will be your 1000 a consultation now when Might your electronic guide be available to people. Where hoping to launch in the summer of next year in summer 2020 We've already been working with the r. And ib an action on hearing loss in aid u.k. And ability Nat on our proposals and we're hoping to be able to work further with than on some user testing as well well when you say user testing will you be trying this who visually impaired people that's right yes individuals not just going to is a she Yes that's right yes this Reynolds from digital u.k. And if you'd like to take part in that consultation you can find it online at w.w.w. Dot digital u.k. Dot co dot u.k. Slash policy slash consultations and there's more information on our website next week we're going to be looking at education amid ongoing concerns about the funding available to meet the needs of visually impaired children so if you're experiencing problems getting your blind or partially sighted child or young person into the school you think most appropriate whether it's a mainstream school or one providing special education do get in contact with us you can leave a voice message for us that's 161-8361 double 38 or you can email in touch b.b.c. Dot u.k. Neither news on last week's program that Scotland was introducing a ban on pavement parking was generally welcomed butt. Andrew Curry questions the idea of a blanket ban because of the state of many roads he says many people park on the pavement badly but they do it for a reason it's an offense to prevent passage along a public road if no drivers ever parked on the pavement he says there'd be serious implications particularly for larger emergency vehicles simply prosecuting pavement parking is not a solution and Gareth pain makes a similar point he emailed to say where I live in South Wales the roads are so narrow that the only way for cars to pass along the road is for the vehicles to be parked on the pavement the local residents walk along the center of the road is the only safe way to get along the street Gareth says sadly until the infrastructure changes it won't be possible to implement the Scottish law I was to do so here would mean excluding parked cars from our street and in doing that prevent my neighbors with mobility impairments from getting to their homes well however we navigate our way around those parked cars and all the other unforeseen hazards like overhanging Bush's unprotected holes the chances are that despite the March of technology most of us who venture out alone still do it either with a white cane or a dog to guide us but will a new attempt to combine old technology with new change the landscape our reporter Lucy Edwards has been finding out you may have seen many articles floating around social media featuring the new high tech smart named Weevil or everyone who is sighted on my feet here is really excited that again it can tell you where to go and warn you where obstacles are different if you. Will blind people actually use it let's give a guy. The we will package and print me just opened it and did today. So it is that we will look it's triangular in shape about 30 centimeters long thin at the top where you hold it and it's got a lovely cripple material it's quite low for a handle and quite heavy as hundreds go probably as heavy as a normal white cane is all to get just in the handle you don't feel like you're going to drop it. From the end where you hold it you have. To see can feel the obstacles above waist high you've got a touch cut and you've got just an extent n n l e d light on the back of the device you've got the power button a speaker and you've got a microphone and also in the box is a white canyon that you can attach a we want to charge a bag and a wrist strap it costs $400.00 pounds. It's John Mark Oh yes well we're not living slate here and I'm sitting just outside of Clinton Easton on this crowded basi Friday afternoon we were up to see just to the side to chat about the We Will Cain now sitting in for and 2 for me is the co-founder and the are indeed shall mock Now how does the We Will Cain. So we walks a smart cane it's this attachment which has basically everything you'd find in a phone that the processor a gyroscope a compass an x. Almost at the touch is on top of any cane So basically if you marginal white cane has a how long talk we took off the handle and we put in we want the super familiar experience you can use it when you want to use it if you don't want to use it it just turns into a home Ok but when you do use it you've got all these cool features 1st you've got some sort of the very front that vibrates let you know there are 40 obstacles like tree branches or signs when connected to your phone by Bluetooth you go to touch part as well as you can control your phone you can control Google Maps speak to Amazon likes of St John McCain's a y. As we walk small came better than any of the small cane on the. Ok because there's lots out there yeah well we're different so we've called the open part for organizations like Amazon like Google are now working with Microsoft as well and there are for good programs to sort of make these visually impaired accessible cost them up with patients that can be controlled straight from a user's came and no one's definitely I'm not before I'm wired to all those features help the she impaired people in a busy environment such as this one well I can tell you from personal experience and from our co-founders personally Smith's work because he's also visually impaired it's just so many mobile applications walls are some amazing ones out there like mine Sprint soundscape most just aren't thought accessible and the pulling your phone 100 words to super cumbersome you've got your kin in the other and of course so many busy environments and you go to look where you're going it's just it's all great and we just want to simplify it and you're saying you're transforming the way that people use canes in the cane experience but why are there so many blind emission impaired people out that still going to the Tristan all of the white k. And the is the trustee Why is this still the case it's because the works it has to be said it's so basic it doesn't do much but what it does it does well and one of those give you literally the type of obstacles that are right in front of you on the ground like steps how can you cane as Brother nothing there's so much room for improvement and just an improvement doesn't come in there's no choice it's not like we're competing with anyone it's just literally no one has thought Ok maybe this white cane that's literally stone age technology maybe we can build up on that and I think that's really the reason why the vision impaired have relied on it because there's just no other option. I'm back home now to test we will in my local area on my familial roots and I'm just going to put it together I'm going to put the head on to the actual canes which could open the case. Who's going to screw the we would device on to it. Tiny bit fit play. With fits all it's all. On the back of the device is the power what we're going to hold for 3 seconds. Made a Mario Kart noises. I'm going to go on the we walk out which I've downloaded on my small phone. So. We walk I'm going to allow Bluetooth. To be so instantly found the crane is still vibrating there must be using a lot of tree so that we will pass 2 modes a standalone mood and a connected mode in standalone you can do obstacle detection battery notifications on the time so a bit more simplistic than the Connected to mode which I will demonstrate some features of when it connects the app is a bit more and she would see if and gives you quite a lot more notifications on when you all. You can connect to relax or all that good stuff. Ok the outside. Now is just walk to the pavement a little bit next to a busy a road we're going to test out the Google Maps integration on this app so you have to actually access Google Maps from inside the we walk app and it says mine's been unable to see. Doing this on the go is quite complicated and there's a lot to think about if I'm thinking about the case and all of the obstacles on the ground and then thinking about the pipe ration from the way you walk and then think you go out my i Phone as well it's all the slightly brain overload I'm sure you may be able to get used to it the vibration is actually quite intuitive so when I'm coming up the car. Is vibrating and when I swipe my cane left and right it's telling me an obstacle of White's tight. I'm just going to start typing to search location. Some going to put textile. To. Tesco of the shops are available but I know that's not my area. Scale the boom. Boom. After 50 meters this is the cane talking now I'm swiping on the touch pad to navigate. All that's quite quiet I think 900 and something turn right. See with all the Connolly's out here I can hear the we will. Know everything when. We walk to Pads does not work when you saw on and it's not recommended to have the we in extreme cold temperatures and extreme heat so don't come out in the freezing cold minus temperatures with it because it could wreck your handset. Yeah I'm not sure how I feel about that to be honest because these days I do actually use my. Is when old is unable to work due to snow because she can't see the curves we thought we would handle on my normal white cane here make it really difficult for me to feel different textures because the hand that mobile case so I would say is likely only slightly if I'm being picky impairs your ability to feel the ground. Was. To do to be honest I don't know whether that was just my cane skills and Google. Or the we will. I think for this news that is just a bit too much information for me now maybe. After a few days of using it I would tell you something to friend but the cares i nice to my old way is with my guide dog and my cane and I think I'm going to stick to bias just for now. Lucy Edwards and that's it for the day for me Peter won't produce a leak I'm in fact and the team goodbye you can call the In Touch team to leave your comments 11618361 double 38 or e-mail in touch at b.b.c. Dot co dot u.k. After the news inside health will look at of a way of giving cancer therapy by allowing people to stay at home plus revise guidelines on depressants that's it a couple of minutes. My adult life really I have watched China visited China Study China Isabelle Hilton on the changing role of a global power I've seen China go from an isolated and extremely impoverished country to this great industrial and technological. 3 parts exploring China's global relations the idea is that China essentially should create a new center of economic gravity in China is really shaking up our view of the world our understanding of how things work Joyner and the world starts on b.b.c. Radio 4 on Sunday afternoon at 130. This is b.b.c. Radio 4. B.b.c. News at 9 o'clock Boris Johnson has paused the government's breaks in legislation after M.P.'s voted against his bid to fast track it through the Commons in 3 days they voted by 322 votes to 308 against the short time table and beat it earlier banks the Prime Minister's deal in principle the 1st time the Commons has been prepared to support any breaks is agreement it passed its 1st parliamentary stage by 3 $129.00 votes to $299.00 following the votes Mr Johnson said he would hold the passage of the withdrawal agreement bill until European Union had said whether or not it would grant another Bracks had to lay the Labor leader Jeremy Corbin said m.p. Had refused to be bounced into debating a hugely significant piece of legislation without proper scrutiny the prime minister is the also of his own misfortune so I make this offer to him tonight I've heard through a vast work with us of all of us. Crave a reasonable timetable and I suspect this House will vote to debate scrutinise and I hope amend the detail of this bill that would be the sensible way forward a spokeswoman for the European Commission said its president John code younger was consulting e.u. Leaders on Britain's request for an extension until January the 31st 2020 the Us pharmaceutical company Biogen says it may have developed the 1st drug to slow out Simas disease the treatment works by attacking toxic proteins that build up in the brain the firm says it will soon seek regulator approval for the drug the Home Office has ordered a public inquiry into the deaths of the 23 victims of the Manchester Arena bombing in 2017 it will have the power to hear evidence relating to the police and m I 5 in secret a government program to close down some of the oldest prisons in England and Wales including those built in the Victorian era has been abandoned the prisons minister said cells we needed to house increasing number of offenders. A trance discovery by neuroscientists has led to pioneering techniques to help some people with severe brain injuries to communicate Adrian I will talk to Jim in the life scientific at half past 9 before that here on b.b.c. Radio 4 it is time for Inside health we talk to Mark Porter Hello coming up today chemotherapy backpacks the innovative pumps that are helping people with cancer stay out of hospital red flags in Vertigo dizziness is a common complaint and most cases are not that serious but occasionally it can be a sign of stroke but how do you tell and we continue our guide to over the counter remedies with an insider's take on anti inflammatory gels for sprains and strains but 1st antidepressants and revised guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence to reflect that for some people they can be very difficult drugs to come off the market Macartney is in our studio market many would say about time to yeah this problem has been going on for decades and then 950 s. The 1st antidepressants were put onto the market different types and what we use analogies and shortly after they appeared there were reports of withdrawal reactions in the literature again this happened with newer drugs reports of withdrawal effects and the 1960 s. And seventy's and the literature and of course then we get to the 1980 s. When flocks of teen Prozac goes on to the market and a couple of other slightly different antidepressants after that I'm again looking through the church lots of reports of doctors and researchers describing what they called interruptions and germs but I think we would recognize as being loose with troll side effects that we're still talking about today so what's prompted nice to revise its guidance now or there's been a big big argument that's been going on in the psych Hatcher x I caught you call and psychotherapeutic sphere and over the last couple of years in 2018 there was a paper published that had a huge amount of publicity. Stating that they thought that the discontinuation reactions our withdrawal reactions was well over half of patients that had been on antidepressants and this then led to a lot of pressure being put on guideline committees in particular nice to change their guidelines nice had previously said that withdraw reactions were my old and short lived but they've no change that and then I was saying that there's a lot of a.d.h. And people's experiences and symptoms can last much longer and be more severe for some the impression I get the coal face is actually nicer but behind the game on this that most G.P.'s are aware of the issues and already weaning many patients off slowly I agree so nice have been saying that we should reduce the do is normally over a 4 week period my experience and I think that of my colleagues is that most of the time we're doing it much more slowly and much more cost.