Outside a little tent surrounded play pink balloons and they're getting their free precious because thank goodness it's Monday and I'm standing here with Mary Finnegan who is one of the directors who I marry and they write this is obviously very much part of the ethos of we work that's right that's right it's very different to the kind of dreaded modern day feeling it's much more about Gray I'm back at work I can meet my colleagues again I can meet the people and that's why we host this event every Monday morning throughout the world we need to get some cops and then when you show us around inside it of course. We come inside and the 1st thing that hits you is just the color and vibrancy inside this building there is nothing gray or partitioned off there is no. All I'm saying it's bright rules people running around drinking coffee sitting at the laptops Mary you were just talking to me about your mission statement create a world where people work to make a life not just a living tell us a little bit more about. The business we're always thinking of ways that we can help our member businesses to grow and that means not just thinking about the way that they work in the way that they want to work but also the other things that they want as part of their lives be it exercise classes extra events that we host So for example school that enables member companies to learn how to I'm seeing people sitting at laptops I'm seeing people in private offices what kind of people are here what kind of businesses So it ranges from individual entrepreneurs small and medium sized businesses right 3 to huge global and surprises and is there much crossover between the people who aren't with those big corporations and the people who are just sat here freelancing on the laptop is there a kind of give or take between those 2 is there is huge interaction between these 2 worlds so the community really the backbone of this business they hope that in the space they make sure that our members are speaking to each other they know what all of our members do and they're always thinking about people they can introduce members to just to help them with that basically says. This is the area where we have our kitchen pantry we'll often put cakes out there in the afternoon or sometimes all community team will bring in pizzas on a Friday and we will then have some wellness events that we normally host you know you've got a lot to is it's actually you can see cocktail making is not really a good thing in the old days music just leave the office at 5 o'clock go home not think about what the but I don't think our intention is to people to be out what all the time and indeed many of our bad it's not that it's about being in the workplace so for example in some a camp is an event that we host every year for all of our global members and we see enormous takeoff and the tickets tonight that it's. Ok Ok I know I sound like I fully signed up to the we work dream there I got caught up in the relaxed student union vibe cute dogs everywhere free stuff I'm a freelancer after all that said 4 $150.00 pounds a month for a desk was too much for my business and we're happy with our low key setup not paying for all the frills and some a camp I don't think so it's clear co-working spaces are in a world conquering mission I asked David Barry he's a social entrepreneur and he knows the scene well why this massive shift to this kind of office where people scale fast and fail fast since 2007 and the banking crisis Bank lending to businesses foreign considerably. And what's filled its place has been either institutional capital venture capital or private risk capital and what that means is that basically there are individuals who want returns over a particular timeframe say for instance between 5 and 8 years so the demand for return is short the need for the entrepreneur to succeed it's tight you've got companies whereby they could be very very successful for 10 minutes and then collapse very quickly and everyone knows that but what it means is the requirement for property needs to be immensely flexible and needs to also provide opportunities for businesses to pivot change to change the nature of their work their requirements etc So it means that basically maximum flexibility maximum optionality and short term leases what you might not know is that whole floors of these buildings are given over to maybe 300 or say people from some giant firm like Microsoft or h.s.b.c. What are these suits doing hanging out with the hipster laptop kids and freelance crowd over the last at least decade the nature of corporations has changed and so people now understand the individuals working differences and violence to some environments are better than of those and more conducive to things such as innovation x. Free exchange of ideas free exchange of data and the understanding is that that happens now no longer in the large corporate headquarters in an office park but happens in a more familiar friendly and interactive place like a work space so you do see now large companies banks some drinks companies and others distributing in devolving their office requirement and also sending teams out to work in work spaces and for some property companies and landlords It's a massive growth area I mean it's the area which they go for. Ok so we spoke to some actually work is he wanted to remain. An anonymous about this new high design collaborative working world these guys a 29 year old Regulus him we met out of the office in a local cafe I had Fred come visit me at the day and she was just because she works in a basement with direct lights nothing like that and whether you're working in a company with an individual where we work every day my space to work and people are smiling and people all in a good place because of those basic needs met you feel like you're part of if you work in a creative company of a bigger creative company it's got this kind of culti American. Thank God it's Monday in the hospital and everyone was a lot of we were. We were in there's a whole world of like action there's something quite sort of American and you type in about this idea of all of us working together and dating and single parties on Valentine's Day going for pub quizzes together and I think we were at once to inspire that vision of togetherness and networking just. We don't want to talk to each other or go back to our desks I think if you're 22 and you're into a free percent it's probably great if you're. Just a person doing a job I don't know if you really have that much contact with the company we work some passion is so clearly to make a space that none of us want to leave like filled with plants and it's go to this coffee table books and everything is designed to be a perfect place for young millennial. But actually I still want to leave at 5 I don't want to spend my whole waking life living in this sort of we work utopia. But what happens when that old and cost free percent. Some co-working firms are considering getting into housing and holidays but more immediate. Some setting up nurseries even millennia become parents I mean to be fair if we work space could provide a nursery I would find so amazing Yeah I'd find out super appealing one of the big pluses of we work is you can bring your dog to work which means that it's probably going to be a bring your babies to work in the future. I know. Well that's the question isn't it she says having just bribed a small child into necessary at 830 this morning how to manage kids and a job. Second home another firm in the coworking game are ahead of the curve having just opened a nursery at their site in London Fields in East London came when Jarvis told me why it's something we've been thinking for a wall or 2 co-founders have young children themselves and so they personally know there is this need to have childcare nearby so we partnered with amazing chocolate fight it called and family and 2nd I remember you get pretty access to that Chaka it's very very difficult to get your child into a nursery you know you have to put their name down for they're even born in some cases the nursery takes up the basement area and some space on the ground floor which is all separate from the space so no Facebook parents have strange people sticking their heads into the nursery so very private and then they also have an area on the roof so the reef is there outside play area they can have rabbits and chickens and it's wonderful So for parents it's just so lovely that they can nip out to say hello to the child and see them really just enjoying themselves so a nursery 1st what's next in the evolution of 2nd home a dentist a doctor a vegetable store what is it it's interesting that you pick but he's things actually so we have looked into having a doctor on site have a cheapie within the building and something that we'd really want to do and went off each spaces and we have actually looked at one of her spaces we got quite far on the line of having an underground garden center vegetable patch type. But you know we just want to make a space that really supports all members and get some of that they need to me. That day be as productive as they come. I'm not sure I'd want my child downstairs in a nursery Within Reach Out of sight out of mind works better for me there's so much guilt involved in being a working parent I would feel compelled to rush down there every 5 minutes and anyway the nursery costs around $1200.00 pounds a month. 2nd Home is the brainchild of Rohan Silva challenging Britain's 5600000 small businesses to keep up with the way people want to balance work and life and create spaces that inspire creativity office buildings temperately looking on themselves and you're not allowed in unless you're invited in or work there that's not a very civic attitude the reason 2nd home you know the cultural programs open to the public and people the manners I don't think the spaces should be closed off like that I think the city becomes a poor place as it's privatized and lopped off and I think we can take a stand against that and the reason we should is not just because it's the right thing to do I really think that if places are more permeable when people bump into each other will have more new ideas and therefore more jobs and growth world of so much pressure now as humans to be creative because if the work we're doing doesn't involve creativity sadly that job will risk of being automated replaced by software and so that then begs the question where does creativity come from and I think the office the work environment play a huge role in helping people be a little bit more creative a little bit more productive and therefore when Race Against the Machine that I think we're all having to face up to I spent the 1st few years of running my business from home because we simply couldn't afford the coworking commitment it's not cheap and it's easy to get carried away by the p.r. Hype but it's human to want company as you work to stop you talking to yourself and feeling anxious that other people successes as you scroll through social media all day which is exactly why freelance blogger Judy Hammons Lee and a colleague came up with the idea of jelly jelly is simply a way of bringing freelancers and home workers together so they can compare notes moan ask questions about their tax return and fend off the working from home madness I heard about it from the us they would surely groups that haven't I thought that scene. Like a really good idea I don't really work from home for a long time and so I knew all of the downsides and this getting out to meet people seemed a really good saying it's free and that's even better for lots of people who work from home and so I started a group in froom the Somerset town where I live and got on to social media we used Twitter a lot to promote it and people got in touch and said how can we start a jelly where we are and so I wrote a jelly guide and put it on my blog Work from Home wisdom and it just sprung up all over the u.k. Very quickly when you look at the location map on your website you can't actually see the outline of the British Isles because there are so many red there cation market for the jelly network work from home wisdom is very much your thing and I love the fact that that is your area of expertise while you are working from home did you develop any bad habits that became a crunch point where you thought I can't continue like this I need to get out of the house I think my worst habit was not going out because I was happy with my own company and I felt I was productive at home and so you can get into a routine where you're not going out and you simply said you didn't work so your diary doesn't allow that but then the trouble is you get to a point where your driving a self mad basically I've never ever regretted going out when I felt like that because I always come back refreshed and feeling as though what I thought was a problem is actually not people get a bit dozy after lunch when they work in an office but when you work on your own that can be really hard to deal with so it's vital to get out and to meet people to discuss how you doing get advice on all sorts of challenges and the great thing about Jelly is that there is no organization as such the jelly u.k. Website is done on a voluntary basis and it's just an idea and it's an idea that has spread of its own accord because it's such a good one and it's just an amazing thing and. Razing indeed some jelly groups just meet in the evening others spend the day together we went to eavesdrop on the jelly group that meets in a borrowed office in central Liverpool every Thursday August 25th it was my name's out and I'm a shark consultant so I'm self-employed and I work on a freelance basis I kind of work around my daughter's working day because she's a school it's just to get really repetitive. To say revive and to a desk. And especially this if you like livable weather there's a lot going on it's nice to get out once a week at least and do something different we never have to never go for 3 years and when I 1st moved here and went freelance I didn't really know anyone in Liverpool so I've met people through and that's about lots of things and also because you're working with other freelancers and being a freelance it can be quite daunting just rebels to things like H.M.O.'s and tax and running your own website just all things you've never done before but when you go freelance is a massive learning curve when you've been employed up until then my name's Chris and I'm a web developer as a freelancer it's nice to get out and get away from that cabin fever feeling that you get when you've been cooped up in your own house for a couple of weeks not having spoken to any human beings because just so we focussed on a particular project when you're in that situation it's hard to clock off at a particular time of night a look at my watch it's 4 o'clock I think or I'll knock off an hour and then I'll look at it again you know I like how past 9 10 o'clock at night and I think I really should stop now but it's nice to come to a place like this where there's a bit more structure and people start at a certain time and leave us on time as well. My name is Pesca I'm a freelance for stock web developer I typically generally involves everyone slowly trickling in through the morning because people don't have a regimented start time they will talk about some rubbish or have an argument about politics there might be a little bit of work done in the middle and then where was the food and then did the afternoon working again so far the most useful thing I swapped it was regarding tax and how to handle tax affairs and how to be saving it for balancing payments which I didn't realize were a thing that I'm going to be a shock at the end of this year and for me it's become a group of friends that we could ask advice from or go for drinks with that kind of thing so you know we've had those noise b. Christmas party where we all went out together and all got drunk together that kind of thing so this real sense of camaraderie around as well is completely frae which is amazing because obviously after people feel us when a tight budget you don't necessarily want to spend every month on a co-working space and this week off. Did you ever think it would be expanded become this kind of wonderful community they would all have such real connections they're not just sitting around talking business they're actually forming friendships and relationships I suppose I didn't really think about it at the time but I jelly kids are there are there any jelly kids in that you know you know that by now time is going on that must be incredibly no one's tried to monetize it when I was doing it it was very much not to be commercialized that was a very strong principle that it shouldn't be networking you shouldn't go to jelly because you were trying to sell yourself or your business you were there purely to meet other people in chat and work together because social media of course has made a life for freelancers and home workers a lot easier and it's connected to a lot but then on the other hand it can make you feel inadequate it can make you feel as though everyone else is doing so much better because naturally people put on social media their successes they put on the fact that they've got a new client and won an award and all this kind of thing and all of that you are aware of in your home office is usually your own challenge is the fact that you didn't get a new client or you're struggling with your work or you feel that you should be getting better rates and so to talk to people about what they're actually experiencing brings all that into perspective and so it's friendly it's informal and it has a lovely atmosphere. It's interesting that the jelly people in Liverpool use the word lonely about being at home. That's the price they pay for autonomy and a certain kind of work freedom. But what about people who really don't have an office at all not even on a Thursday these homeworkers told this how they deal with being. Probably working at home is there are so many of her patients you constantly thing . And you can. Literally. Move. My 1st experience of working from home as when 3 g. Smartphones 1st came out and I was given a leave of absence to work from home on the basis that I'd stay connected and v.p.n. Didn't smile office connected all the time so that people could monitor exactly what I was doing so I decided that I could sit around my friend's shop smoking and drinking coffee all day connecting up to my p.c. At home through my 3 g. Smartphone every now and again just to move my mouse just so that they knew that I was working and continued sort of like I was actually doing something with the majority of the day was spent chatting and drinking excessive amounts of coffee one plus is that my house when I'm working from home is immaculate it's the thing you do when you're working is going to need to take a break and just going to here even though I have it twice yesterday I also made myself very complicated little lunches I think oldest Friday going to 2 hours later it's the both of those shacks euchre in the hall things just chaotic there's just too much to do if you're at home it's great and specially those of us who've worked in office for a long time you can't believe the freedom honestly it's a miracle it includes all I mean I've had like entire working days in bed I'm in my pajamas if it's winter I have to do is on me I might have added in a show and a hat I have my little desk and my mouse and my headphones and if there's a Skype conversation then everything has to change I have to make sure that there's ideally some books behind me in the image if not I'm just on the safe or you can never get a kitchen behind me but try to let my bosses over there and see that she's laughing because she has copes with me in. The book. I started today in my new office Thembi went to a co-working space a part time office and a home office well what about Agile working that's code for no offices who unless you consider a car to be an office health visitor is ambulance workers social workers here used to return to their office between appointments and now expected to work from their cause using agile devices tablets connected to the office in an attempt to cut desks save money and keep them out of the office which doesn't have room for them anymore so right now I'm far from car Josh Devlin is a social worker for Children's Services in south Manchester he's been officially one of the growing group of agile work is for a year now that means working not in the office not at home but from your car. I don't want. To be. A dominant chord. Joshi's car has become his office the internet is full of hacks of how to make your call more like an office just a few simple modifications so he can create an entire new. House quite fun travel call. To look well coffee and on the quality of our cards already fitted with the u.s.b. Well there are complicated charging cable of all over the lavatory of our knowledge by 3 I've adopted today I'm still made of iron on the idea of being able to bounce around the local area where it would cover an interim appointment to plan. Maybe a few emails call do you know of it take away the court card away from your her son require attention actually are described as well no phone calls I got home call me that wouldn't be. Appropriate problem. In my life however. Not for everyone particularly in the winter yet Pichon is actually kind of creeps up on you can get it and you saw that in your life over shouldn't reason and the really cold anomaly. To them were are sick with her voice not comparable her ritual you get pretty cold. That was. My introduction and also it probably looks a little bit more suspicious screens out there with the engine on people out. On the ground but not everyone appreciates that a young man parked up on the street huddled in a thick coat is in fact an agile burka. I quite quickly turned to her guard trimmers really keen prepared already know. How. On earth what a lot of how we're transferring our cargo some birds and I car walk and dark table chart position himself just outside the window and said Oh you want to. Record you . Are like where you are so hard quickly I drove away and Joshi is only 25 and not all working is the only kind he's at the Nugget he's never had an office he gets paid mileage but the car is his own not provided by his employer. Pro. Ball I couldn't adapt that easily I love central heating coffee machines. All the comforts of Opus like. My little business is growing and having to hire a let's go next time for me to look at the mind boggling world for cream and my laptop and I couldn't believe the way it's down there but you know what's expected of the new kind of boss that wants to attract talent that's out of office next will go Ok well walk Aagot. Out of Office was presented by respons and produced by Susan mulling it was a just radio production for b.b.c. Radio 4 as a couple of book recommendations for you if you're struggling to find something new to read it is Berman and Terry Baker off the suggestions after this I'm going to be like Sydney what Iain to Syria will allow Rowan Atkinson is the Reverend Wilson pan and he's also the Reverent go to music we do a lot of for this year the so we'd be a very aggressive last year of Blues was ripped off by another comeback and I would have called the police Rowan Atkinson is also the Reverend Richard crisp I'm breaking and entering and of concern besides I'm a man of God the police will always be on my side but I'm a black man Richard on a star athlete that's of exactly the same for me a new comedy series about 3 because God's work begins on b.b.c. Radio 4 tomorrow morning at half past 11. Now on b.b.c. Radio 4 it's time for a good read his her it's killed it. Hello today 3 characters determined to do it their way whether in the world of seventy's rock a Swedish suburb or a North London flat with me to introduce their good read our d.j. And broadcaster Edith Bowman who presented t.v. And radio shows for b.b.c. Radio one and 213 radio among many others she's written for clash with music added her of and recently launched the award winning music and interviews podcast sound tracking with a death is the spoken word artist and mathematics lover Harry Baker the youngest ever world poetry slam champion his Ted talk a love poem for lonely prime numbers has had over 3000000 views and he's currently working on a follow up to his w. Anthology the sunshine kid. Edith Bowman would you start what is your choice of a good read I'd love to my choice of a good read as Daisy Jones and the 6 by Taylor Jenkins read I was given this pick for by a friend of mine she's a new friend I was it I interviewed her died and we we met at the interview and she just kind of clicked and sort of she's like oh I work at Penguin house can I send you some pics you know like yes you can so so sunny sent me this because she was it's a far stick she sent me she was like I think you going to like this and I was that annoying Paris and I wouldn't do anything in at all for a couple of days to go through only to me 2 days to get through it which is quick for me but I was one more condensed street you know so easy buying Mayan's people every opportunity I was I had this big corporate because it just hit me and straightaway and it's it's car because I don't want to see too much about the story of it because I think by talking in depth about it it can lose the magic for people who have read it but the thing I think I have to say if you want me to talk about it Vicki. There are he's there I read this book and the 1st thing I did when I finished it was went straight on to Google to search for the music of the people written about and to see that I was disappointed would be an understatement to discover that none of the characters in this book are real it is written in such a way that the characters are so believable they're so brought to life they're so colorful they motions you feel they're going through and it's written in a very clever way and it's written into these. And they got me the absolutely got me here Clayton thinker Well what about you Harry Baker I mean this is the fictional biography of a band of seventy's rock band in the USA Did you also think that it was real I had exactly the same thing yes I thought. It was going to know more about me the music this is going to be some band that she's discovered and knows about and I'm a naive person coming into air and I absolutely I almost didn't make it to the end before States actually because there's a point where they've made this album they're about to go on tour and I thought maybe if I listen to the album 1st then I'll be able to imagine them on top there and I stop myself because like what if it's not there and it was honestly on the back of the book in tiny writing fiction. It's Humi I was so disappointed and I genuinely I loved it because I I love the idea of what's behind creativity biopics things like Walk the Line or other things where you get to see these songs you know in a new light and I thought having read this book this is going to be amazing so your hair this classic album everyone knows and loves but have this new insight into it and so I had that thing when it wasn't there it was really disappointing this is so funny because I mean I'm old enough that I was a lie than the 1970 s. And listening to rock and I knew that Daisy Jones and the 6 really couldn't exist because I'd never heard a lot and even latest tinkle of a bell of remembrance and then I did see because I thought because of that I better check and it does say that on the on the copyright page as well it says this is a work of fiction so I was never thinking that they were a real band but what was really interesting me the whole way through was thinking Ok So who's this based on I mean it Fleetwood Marquis it's there yeah there's all this Fleetwood Mac. And I was also thinking over there not really like the Bee Gees' all this stuff about the brothers. Hostility between the air brothers in the band I mean those those things like the beauties the Kinks Creedence Clearwater Revival the whole oh yeah bands that have been marked by warring brothers and I don't know and for me that was the most interesting thing and I think you're saying the same thing was the relationship yeah the rivalry is the hatreds and love affairs Yeah and the journey that usually she ships go through as well as each kind of member found their place or lost their place within that kind of dynamic of the bar and but Daisy is a conduct as well as kind of you know been someone who's been completely inspired by music both in a professional and personal level and stuff is she's the person I kind of almost wanted to be when I was like that teenager and it was amazing to to see it was so much of that it kind of got that's what I dreamed of what did it why did you want to be like the Stacy character someone who is inspiring and she kind of you she joined this group instead and she was the person that brought it to life she was the reason that she was a catalyst in this creativity outpouring of creativity from these individuals who up at that point it got so far but the there was a missing link and she was the missing link and she was just curios in my head she's a bit of a kind of cross between Annie Lennox meet Stevie Nicks kind of all these different sort of female musical icons that I admired growing up and she had that little bit of all these different things and I just thought she was this really rounding crafted character and her clash with the older brother in the band the lead singer until she comes along and joins them where phone that's the central dynamic of the novel isn't that they're sort of love hate rival worrywart they type thing yeah I found even when they had conflicting interests I was rooting for them both Yeah and I just wanted a way that everything was going to be Ok even though it was just building and building and he thought there's no way that this is going to last and I love that the way it's written with the con. Overlapping interviewees there's these brilliant moments where there's 2 people describing the same thing differently so clever and especially with those to around the point where they're writing these songs and they completely love and hate each other I just think that adds to it and it has this kind of momentum to it and at points that's just really amusing when about 3 of them claim they came up with a name for the band there's another point kind of like. What is the truth in between all of this yeah and that's partly why it was just found it so believable because at every point I kind of thought yeah that is how you would read into the yeah everyone's idea of act and memory is different and I think that's a really really kind of clever tool to play on an ace in terms of you know because then you is are as a reader are kind of making up your own mind based on those different kinds of events and things it's really clever it's interesting this is almost a thing at the moment because earlier this year Steven Morris of new water drama chose a book very very different in many ways but using the same device of Bond interviews it's called This is Memorial device by David Keenan and you know that was a post-punk band in Scotland not quite the same with a very cool America is there Werman sunny day. I just I'm just wonder whether this is kind of the way of the future these fictional biographies fictional oral biographies one crucial difference between that book and this one is that it seems to me Edith that this is very much among other things a sort of feminist critique of the music industry because it's not just daisy there's another woman in the band The keyboard player. Christine McVie you haven't . So so it is quite often used to show how difficult then and yet way it was being a woman in that industry yeah definitely and there's there's a kind of real sort of sub text to that I think that those undercurrent themes of that are really prevalent obvious for me. Terms of given women a voice to address what it was like in The Times in terms of let's get a female singer in sort of thing for a reason really you know it's kind of that's what happened in that and of the Daisy Of course she doesn't want to just bizarre you know she wants to be a writer Yeah exactly which is great to for that to be kind of not flipped on its head but to follow that through with a strong woman who you know really stands by what she wants and doesn't let that slip purely to get the fame and the attention and the adoration that she could have easily done by just kind of be a yes person. Well we've been talking about Daisy Jones and the 6 by Taylor Jenkins read I'm Harriet Gilbert You're listening to a good read where my guests today are Edith Bowman and really Baker Ari you're good readers a man could. Tell us about it this but. The back story is my wife Grace got me a subscription to a kind of but service where you tell them books that you like and they recommend ones based on that and it just happened that the 2 books I've read recently that I'd love were an unlikely pogrom age of Howard fry and the 100 year old man who climbed out the window and as a pit and what this meant and my recommendations became this new subjoin I wasn't aware of of grumpy old people going to adventure and I didn't know there were so many but in this genre but you know I got the name it's called grump let her know that it is there really is that I think men and women you're wrong but it's mainly in literature anyway not in life it's mainly men. Of the 1st but from this sort of read about men was a subsequent one called Brittany was here which is a grumpy old woman and then I read this one off the back of it and I just of all the grump that I've read this is my favorite the 1st scene is him getting angry at someone in a computer shop he doesn't understand what's going on and points it to me at least it's almost laugh out loud funny how frustrated he is with the way the world case but then as it goes on you fall in love with him and find out why he is so grumpy and. I just I just love him and it was a real joy reading this book and I think for me. Having a background of math as well I find it so satisfying when things slip into place nicely and you realise that all these parts of his life have added up to the person he now is and things that seem innocuous you realise are because of this thing that happened 3040 years ago so really love it as a writing device of a way of just making you see things again and again each time with slightly more compassion for the main character so Edith moment did you fall in love with a man called Hoover Absolutely and I saw so many grumpy old men I know in this current well but I also saw their light in the hope Yeah you know you could kind of it wasn't predictable but you could see things coming and you hoped that was what was going to a car and you hoped and then just the way that it. I mean he loses his wife which is obviously a very big part of the story and yes and we and that's not a plot spoiler we know that white early on yeah and you can kind of work that out it's of thing for us is the way that he talks about her but but just the way that that's laid out and just the way there are it's gorgeous and it really I mean my my my granddad just was in my head the whole time he wasn't particularly grumpy but he after he had a stroke he got grumpier but it was almost comedic grump sue you could almost predict the grump in a way to you I mean you could see a situation and you'd know exactly what he would say or be how he would react if you know it's almost kind of that childlike not life experience of just seeing what you think or see what's in front of you I remember taken a boyfriend up to Scotland to me and he was half Greek and so you know after a day he would have a bit of growth in my granda just 1st thing he ever said to me is go we shave once a day up here son and it was you know I wasn't met with any Majlis or anything it was just that kind of an edited kind of forthright approach of just this is I see things as I see them kind of thing and it is it is very funny it's funny very far and in this book I mean it seems to me that this novel is has taken on board the injunction you know make them laugh make them cry and for me they make him laugh it is entirely successful I mean are there are some wonderful scenes including when this isn't flashback and his to be wife takes him to meet her dart and they're both equally silent equally taciturn men are just brilliant description of dinner together and there's the to riff it lines and I think what I laugh most is precisely this kind of this scene dump out a trail of irritation that he has got his he's annoyed with everything is annoyed with a computer salesman he's annoyed with I think that a badly made at his neighbor's incompetence everything yet and for me when I laugh at all this. And laughing at myself because I recognize my own irritation with the world I also love as well it's weird I was talking to someone about this recently about how trying to not be so Judge Mental about someone that you come across who reacts to you in a grumpy manner and I've had it with my kids where we were my youngest who 6 is kind of you know he's still a little bit what blew his bike so we were going through a certain part of Hampstead Heath tiny little bit of road that was no cycling you know the big signs and I was like there's no one coming we're just going to only end it we fight and this old lady came around the corner and point it at the site in kind of you know and it didn't make didn't see anything but you could tell she was just theory I said it made me kind of go I don't know her situation I don't know the succession of events that may have made her that type of person and Edith it could have been me I'm. Sorry did I mean what becomes clear throughout through the book gradually gradually is that Hoover is actually underneath all this irritation about tempers got a sort of hard core of integrity and honesty and moral courage and I just wonder whether to some extent you find him a sort of role model Yes So one thing I love about him is to me he's a kind of quiet hero and I think there's a tendency for the main characters like Daisy Jones who's brilliant but very obviously sight and the center of attention and I think rather than playing with to be anything other than a grumpy old man it's any situation he's met with he just completely comes out triumphant and his kindness and. Just genuine caring nature for other people comes through and I think rather than him trying to prove himself to anyone I think is very happy in his grumpy old man state it's just impossible for that. Come across when he does go out of his way to help this family or to drive them to the hospital or time and time again and so I think I love he's not trying to. Prove himself to anyone but by doing that he his life speaks for itself and despite the fact that this is set on the Swedish housing estate there is a Volvo's and sobs and goodness knows what this is not a work of social realism is it it's a it's a land a very town it's a he's able it's beautifully were and I love the way that he writes about the relationships in the way he describes I just read one thing which was a man describing really which was he was a man of black and white and she was color all the color he had and in those 2 little sentences it just sums up what their husband wife relationship was in there's some beautiful subtleties in there they're right and I think is one terms of particularly the characters described in the corridors and I think when it's default setting is for the most of the world to have let him down in some way when you see that his wife is everything to him you think even in amongst his kind of grumpy exterior that then feels like it's even more potent. I'm going to sound a bit grumpy and cynical now because whereas I did laugh I mean I laugh out loud throughout this book I did find the tragic aspects of it as though you know my heartstrings were being plucked a bit over violently and they might come loose at any minute I mean there is there is a kind of rather hefty build up of tragedy in a poor old in this life isn't there yet but I think. One of my favorite passages and I think because it's the West Hall is comparing him in his sort of rival neighbor buying various cars over here and he's so proudly has to have a Swedish car and he's angry when anyone gets Serrano I mean you do whatever you can hear them see why we do that and again face value you think that is just whatever is but then this is amazing passage when he describes all these different models of car and you find out it's because he needed space for a prayer or a wheelchair or whatever and I think such a delicate way of revealing these things and there are moments for us like your unfairly being made to wait and it's very kind of on the nose but like yeah I think like been encouraged to read the sparrow than any man I think and I thank you for that motion in the world is laughing through tears and there's a real relief when it gets to the funny bits because you have been distraught by what's he ended the chapter before I think by having these flashbacks it's able to jump between the quite ridiculous and the quite serious and a quite a number guity I did love the fact that because the bad is in this book is a terribly bad you know his work colleague can tell and home the thief and the liar and the bully and that wretched woman in the estate who keep setting her dog on the in the cat because they are so bad you know they're going to get their comeuppance and when they do it it's going to glorious. We've been talking about a man called over by Frederick back mint and my choice of a good read now we've all chosen relatively recent books mine is a book called The Cost of Living by Deborah Levy. And I chose this book because of its color that's why I picked it up in a bookshop it's this beautiful sort of free love free range eggs yolk yellow and then a little black and white still from a film or a god our film which shows a couple in a clinch and he's got his face. Buried in her collarbone and she's looking out past him and what she's really concentrating on it seems is blowing a perfect smoke ring with gun cigarette and I'd a thought this embarrassing but none that I thought of that is so cool so I picked the book up a that I saw it was by Deborah Levy who is a writer I have never read but have always thought from reviews that I ought to read she is a playwright a novelist a poet and what it is is a sort of journal of a time when she was just about 50 and she was in her metaphor swimming away from her marriage she moves to a flat in north London with her 2 teenage daughters and she's trying to find out how she can be in the world not as a wife as ourself and I'm just so glad I picked it up I am going to read lots more by don't really feel I am now or fun Edith Bowman what about you I love that I am felt like fleabag for 50 you have a very good which I just though less sex was well you know me she doesn't talk too much about it but I'm sure she's definitely getting some bad where you hope she was she deserves to and I just I thought it was so utterly refreshing to hear a kind of or nest on kind of. Lowered kind of patrol of a woman of that age who's just decided to make a change in her life and is dealing with all that changes thrown at her and kind of just get on with it. And I mean I just find it really liberating and and you know I'm very happily married but God forbid should I turn 50 and 5 myself in a situation where you know a single mom with my 2 kids are things like this is a big of inspiration I think I just thought it was brilliant I really really really enjoyed it what about you hurry Baker Yeah I think compared to Daisy Jones which again I read and maybe 2 days straight this I just found myself slowing down with that I didn't want to rush anything because it's it's not a huge book but it's very the prose is very poetic and I found myself just sitting with it and wanting to absorb it forward it was and I think was. You know where as in these fiction books it's all tied up in quite a neat way with this almost feels like she's looking back on this period of her life and and finding her own connections and there's some amazing passages where just prompted by a woman saying to her choose there's not your day is that she then reflects on the moment that she realized she didn't want to continue with her marriage and then she comes back out of it and so yes yeah she's there's not one day and it is some a thing and it's gentle but it's fear and yet it's again it's this thing of someone unashamedly being who they are in this point in their life and I interest you see about not racing through I kind of almost 5 myself having her with having it with me and feeling like there were certain times of the day where wanted to go back and see what she was doing and yeah almost you know in a highly of I wonder what she's been up to between now and then because the way that it's written is almost like that as well in terms of you know it was a diary entries and so it's kind of that thing of like I need space between well kind of visits to sort of you know allow her to do what he's doing in a weird kind of overstep when there is as with the other 2 books there is lots of comedy in it she buys an electric bicycle and she are every time she comes back to the block of flats are telling. She go to the park the Electric Bicycle where she's not supposed to so she can take the shopping and there is a woman not unlike over. Very passive aggressive woman who is always there waiting to sort of ask why she's partying and on parking space I would actually she's a bit like over herself to believe me she says she she's fed up with new technology that when she comes back from a party I think and then I was on the telephone for an hour with India talking about. A computer program which. It is funny as well is it not yeah yeah and I think that this is maybe not quite a grump let But it has that tone to wear of. Reflection as well as going through her day to day and being able to I think herself find context for what she's doing and there's a point where she's asking who the major minor characters are in her life because of a conversation she's had elsewhere and I think she's brilliant jumping between the Monday in and these huge life events of having to move her old life into a new flat and these things and I think it all just seems to of Florida actually a make sense yes there's a very elegant moment about half or 2 thirds of the way through when the narrative sort of turns and faces something the belief he hasn't wanted to face and that's her mother's death and that's just I think very beautifully done and. With this terrible sad story involving the Turkish news agency and some I slowly slowly take the model in hospital and they run out of everything except bubble gum flavor which a mother does not approve of and it is very delicate but I also really like the relationship between heart and her male friend which is kind of is quite a unique thing to to read you know do we see those type relationships as part of a strong narrative you know it's like oh there must have been some history between you know this there's always some kind of sexual or historical context to that relationship more than friendship and I really love that it was a real focus of the strength for heart as well now up until she gets really annoyed with him even though they're obviously good friends yes he always refers to his wife as my why why he loves you know that is that sex. Is an order that is named I mean I suppose in a way what one of the things I love about this book is that she is not trying to find herself which is a kind of impossible journey what she's trying to do is thinking Ok How can I be what can I be and she makes I think a really good point she says the journey towards a freer life is a journey without end. Which feeds into what you were saying how about this that this book doesn't have a beginning a middle and end it doesn't arrive at some Yeah neat conclusion there is no perfectly Yeah and I think that's kind of really refreshing as well because I think that there's always you know I think bits of of about kind of you know women making a change in their life for the greater good of and south it can almost kind of go down that sort of Bridget Jones he type bridge you know I mean of kind of it's really predictable or it's kind of that sucker in but but I just I thought this was absolutely the fashion because there was no end point to where she was trying to get to it was just about her navigating her way through this new life that she had made the choice to have. We've been talking about the cost of living by Deborah Levy published by Penguin and I should say that there is a previous volume a sort of prequel to this cool things I don't want to know before that we were talking about a man called over by Frederick Blackman translated by head and published by scepter and they see Jones in the 6 by Taylor Jenkins read which is published by Hutchinson and hardback and due out in paperback from arrow in January for hundreds more books suggestions from guests as various as Ruby to undergo Jenny Colgan Philip Pullman Jo Brand just search for a good read online and if you've read any book which out about here tell us what you think of it by joining our book club on Instagram follow us at all one word a good read b.b.c. Another a big thank you to my guests Harry Baker and Edith Bowman and to you as always thanks for listening. A good read is presented by Harriet Gilbert and was produced in Bristol by Becky Ripley. Over already for extra The seating Judy Garland's daughter Lorna Luft talks about her life as the offspring of a legend that same musical genes 630 on ready for extra this weekend already are for what they were suggesting was totally illegal and against their own stated policy based on real accounts of us Republican presidents I'm sorry what mattered with getting our points out this whopping misandry the hostages they release one and kidnap another that's just coincidence right beginning with the Iran Contra affair Mr President I don't care if I'm the only person in America that does not believe I don't believe it was arms for hostages the new series of the Republicans on b.b.c. Radio 4 begins on Saturday afternoon at 230. And the 1st series of the Republicans is available now on b.b.c. Sounds. This is b.b.c. Radio 4 it's 5 o'clock on time 4 pm with Carolyn Quinn. Is the Prime Minister's bricks it deal on its last legs and if so who's to blame we dissect some of today's claims and counterclaims and after a Downing Street source says that the u.k. Will cause difficulties if it's forced to stay in the e.u. An ally of the German chancellor responds Well it may link which is never. What you imagine our side would do the same think all your the rear and you know react in a new pm series Becky Milligan takes a closer look at the lives ruined by gambling markets just feel inside me just get hold of me and doing things that you know after being broke to do just talk to a change my personality in life or process not just in the gambling in everyday life and pm is back in Warrington south we'll Breck's it when vote is over in a looming general election all I'm worried about is the n.h.s. Skinning the elderly you voted for Braggs it here is it your number one thing when it comes that election you care of I but the moment probably yes with the b.b.c. News throughout the hour and your ph Downing Street as the talks between the u.k. And the e.u. Want to break the deal are close to breaking down after what was described as a challenging phone call this morning between Boris Johnson and the German chancellor Angela Merkel number 10 is accuse the e.u. Of being willing to torpedo the Good Friday peace agreement but the president of the European Council Donald Tusk won the prime minister not becoming gauged in a stupid blame game with the latest from Westminster Here's Jonathan Blake a Downing Street source said a break sit deal was essentially impossible after the phone call this morning between angular Merkel and Boris Johnson the German chancellor made clear number 10 briefed that a deal. Based on the U.K.'s proposals was overwhelmingly unlikely there was no official line from the other side but the Early in were keen to stress they still thought a deal could be done away from the speculated against constable gordon downie who worked in an armed response unit was awarded 10000 pounds for hurt feelings.