And the 2nd one. Whether the same obviously not correct now what at least there. Obviously the same correct you passed or the real test for a music is a lot longer really mean you can't accurately diagnose this condition in 30 seconds we don't really know now all that's left for us is to answer the last part of Simon's question is there anything he can do to make sure that his son isn't tone deaf or that I turned back to my singing teacher Michael I do think there are quite a lot of things we can do to help children to have confidence with their singing and with making music even if you're not a person who views yourself with the saying go spend time singing with your children singing mesure I was singing it by telling helping them to get to know their voices my own opinion is that we all have a voice I just don't think that everybody's learned how to use it and some of us need a little bit more help with it than others like you yes thank you. So you don't have it in I want to question Is my mom telling deaf can we say k. So a music meaning they don't hear the same differences in melody as the rest of us so if you generally enjoy music and like singing along to the radio in the kitchen then you probably aren't and you might just need a little bit more practice and fewer people being me to making negative comments that are my fed and maybe some soundproofing in your house. The curious cases of rather for them Friday was presented by Adam rather 1st and Hannah fry the producer was Michel Martin and you can send your everyday mysteries to curious cases had b.b.c. Dot co dot u.k. And download the podcast which features extra material from the Radio 4 website this is Radio 4 were it's time now for you and yours. Today new for old the new tricks supermarkets are using to try to make a spend more what to do with want to have 1000000000 old tires scrapped every year turn them into new oil perhaps we did a bunch at R.'s one occasion where. We couldn't stop the oil it was coming from everywhere and we were just rushing around with rags and buckets and trying to do a lot and why blowing the dust off old 19th century machinery is breathing new life into the British lace industry the more modern showman but the bodies have been bought it is made out of place to use the old ways to get in touch while you're listening to to kill a few spotted a supermarket's way of trying to get you to spend more e-mail you and yours at b.b.c. Doco to u.k. On social media the hash tag is you and yours or you can text us on 84844 but 1st the illegal money lending team in England it's part of the national trading standards and it's been set up to catch and prosecute loan sharks says it's increasingly concerned about those loan sharks preying on gambling addicts they've been caught stalking people in casinos looking to exploit vulnerable people who need immediate cash or put some authentic has been working on this story so some how many people are affected by this well nearly one in 10 people who contacted the illegal money lending team in England this year say that they're borrowing from loan sharks to fund gambling habits and pay off debts last year the figure was Hof that but the fear is that actually this number could be a lot higher because people are too scared to go to the place all the illegal money lending team for help and that's what happened to this 30 year old man whose name we're not using because he's worried of reparse reprisals he's been a compulsive gambler for half of his life. Last letter some on that and a price let's go with it. And awake often why if that pond it. So again I was can definitely pulse again what sort of things are you betting on the hoses docks virtue of icing and it's not going to focal But what's the most you have little spent on in a book or last minute I marched. In full in for a minute I do you know have you worked out how much debt you've now got a lot of you are much moment out of about me probably around 200000. 200000 pounds in my people might be more you know I'm way did you find the money to be able to gamble that much began with y. G.'s since I lost all my white is out stop paid I'm in this tax law and even Tex and I want some of our own and time as I was trying to time of it just from a tax so what was the point at which you decided to learn shock when you can get any money anywhere else. So you went to some went to a number of them you didn't yet how many in total do you think quite a few 6 or 7 I mean here borrow from one we had to pay him back so I got to another one other to get more partner involved and more more money involved so I really was just out robbing pockets Pipo all the time how did you find these lunch oxes. I went to big city centers When Because look for certain types of people that are full more to know someone but not with arms drug dealers I found I was a drug they didn't think you know it was an all to fund them so people did you understand the consequences of what you were doing at the time though you were doing it going to these people not so much because awful if it was going to be or why I was somewhere with or generally believed that. I would win $200000.00 pounds one day and have on back and so of interest rates to the charge. Is example of about turn off 1000 pound the palays double 4000 pounds or it up our trade off if I die pretty much said what I wanted I had some of these long shots he'd borrowed money from also got Vidal Yes So yeah out. A couple times of to a different people one of them by Bernard in the car about the 2nd time was a few stitches in my mouth but these beatings because you missed a payment you missed 2 or 3 pints and I put interest are going to start thinking right in a minute the money just gone up and looking back was going on even though you start saying so the interest on one or the principle that I've been mugged off that I think it's wrong to get why I thought I would make an example would be found somewhere or my family members would take the repercussions for me to go to the place is Iraq an easier option for me to just kill myself for the oldest. So he owed 75000 pounds to 7 different loan sharks He says he's now paid off what he sees as the most dangerous of those people he still owes about 10000 pounds to a few and he's hoping to have those debts cleared to those like sharks in about 8 months time how has he managed to pay them back what mainly through his parents so they've taken out bank loans they've taken money out of their pensions they borrowed money from friends and family members and they've also read more gets their family home for him and he's got 3 jobs at the moment so he's working really hard to try and pay off some of that debt but also try and help his family as well and what types of interest rates for these loans. What we just heard in that case he borrowed about 2 and a half 1000 pounds from one particular shark and he'd expect. Would expect about $5000.00 pounds within a week and then they'd accrue interest on that if he missed payments the legal money lending team he catch and prosecute loan sharks tell me that they've typically seen annual interest rates of between 50 and 100 percent so you can see how those debts will quickly spiral out of control so this man you spoke to when looking for a loan sharks but you've been hearing the sharks themselves are on the hunt as well yeah that's right say the illegal money lending team have prosecuted loan sharks who have stalked gambling and addicts in casinos taking advantage of low losing punters by offering them immediate cash at high repayment rates Tony Quigley is the head of the legal money lending team in England we know of loan sharks that were operating across different casinos and what I would do is use they would target somebody who's having a particularly bad not and then sell very long term on the Buy says that you know they will have a win and they have to buy the money back and of course what happens is is that they lose that money as well we've seen books that had 70000 pound written in is being. And I've also heard that they're advertising on the Internet to say the body that represents lived. Estimate short term lenders or payday loan companies the consumer finance Association says it's now becoming much easier to find these people because they set up illegal websites which look like they are genuine Web sites here's their c.e.o. Russell Hamlin boon we've seen an increase in illegal lending on the Web what's happening is criminals are starting to adapt to the Internet and Web bandits and now operating through dodgy websites and the way to spots if a lender is dodgy is to look at the website if there's poor grammar or there's no risk warning that expansion loans can be expensive or that there's a guaranteed approval or they said we're not going to do any credit checks or that they're not registered with the Financial Conduct Authority but those are things to look for so that's Russell Hamilton being from the Consumer Finance Association who scour the website looking for these their so-called dodgy websites in order to shut them down now in the in the in just 6 months between April and September this year the illegal money lending team in England has frozen 1700000 pounds worth of assets from suspected loan sharks moving some of the Fenix thank you now what to do with the one and a half 1000000000 tires scrapped across the globe each year it's a big problem burning them in the open is illegal and it produces huge amounts of toxic smoke so they should be reuse or recycled into things like artificial sports pitches or carpet underlay But as the B.B.C.'s Panorama program reported a couple of years ago illegal dumping of scrap tires goes on at an alarming rate fast illegal dumps in the British countryside some so big they can easily be picked up by satellites in space a 100000 times here left on a remote farm in the bush to show countryside. Fervor No 300000 were abandoned. In an industrial estate in the next shop. And then sell for going to the biggest of them all. At one point there were over 2000000 toys dumped at this occluded site in the Hampshire countryside. Well here's one potential answer to this problem a start up company and a stray or a surprise scientists by using old timers to produce a new biofuel that is capable of running diesel engines and it reduces harmful diesel emissions as well green distillation technologies it's based in Melbourne is planning to increase production dramatically next year and it's being welcomed by waste experts here in the u.k. The tire recovery at the tire Recovery Association told us it's an encouraging step forward the firm's director Trevor Bailey told me how the process of making bio fuel from a tire works away huge number of tires in a batch in a sealed chamber and that the heating process causes certain chemical reactions within that are we condense those into an oil and when the chemical reaction is completed we discharge the residue which is of. Coal and the steel skeleton that are. So how much oil can you get from one ordinary time 35 percent by weight so big time as you can get a lot of oil well the ones we're doing now they weigh about 3 and a half ton and we getting about 1800 liters of oil because the University of Technology demonstrated that by blaming a 20 percent with diesel fuel we have no loss of power in a 30 percent reduction in emissions and with women a half 1000000000 times as dumped across the earth each year you've got you've actually got quite a quite a substantial role product there have been well if you take into account the 100 years of legacy sites to yes we've got enough to keep us going for a little while and what ties made of passenger tires of. Synthetic rubber of 27 percent synthetic rubber and 40 percent natural rubber. And steel skeleton and some fabric and Sun filler and some other bits and pieces so if you get a tire and it goes through your process how much of that tire can you recycle 100 percent 0 waste what about the use of the energy that goes through that process surely that in itself is a carbon producing no no we burn about 2 percent of the oil we produce to provide the heat to deliver the chemical reaction. And of the carbon product that is a residue is used to substitute for coking coal or soused slate foaming steel recycling a number of uses How much does it cost to do this what's the cost of the process works not easy to define because 1st of all we get paid to take the tires because it's a waste stream and people are still paying to have their waste recycled and the process just delivers those 3 products carbon or oil and steel and so it's not a question of. Spread tires across pre-planned model shows that we will process about $20000.00 tons of tires easy somewhere around 40 percent of the revenue is in the tire collection of 40 percent is in the oil and the other 20 percent is in the cabin the steel now you produce diesel. Effectively diesel now we're all being told Paris's banned diesel cars we're all being told I shouldn't have bought my diesel car despite government advice that that was a good thing to do because of the nitrogen oxides that the engines produce so well you just manufacturing more 1st of all the 30 percent reduction in emissions is all in the nitrogen oxides when it's blended with diesel and as this diesel is a renewable resource I mean rubber is a lot of visual if you like are you surprised that you've been able to do this the actual process working as not been a surprise to us of course has been very exciting I mean we did a bunch of tires on one occasion where we couldn't stop the oil it was coming from everywhere and you know we were just rushing around with rags and buckets and trying to do so to allow the surprise I guess is the fact that when you look back and you see what we've achieved over since 2009 then yes I mean there is a little thing in the back here which says well it's worth changing it right do you see this going playable tires are a global problem we've had inquiries from Siberia South Africa Chile in Argentina from the Gulf you Zealand from the us it definitely is a global issue and yes we can see it going global. Conveyor belts. All sorts of other rubber products that currently have no solution which we are confident we can and. Travel Bailey from Green distillation technologies in Melbourne and that slight burn is in his accent is because he's recently from Dorset It's 1230 you're listening to you and us on b.b.c. Radio 4 with me share evolve coming up the pros and cons of being an agency worker we hear the arguments and the subtle and not so subtle tricks that shop uses shops use to make us buy more 1st his mother Karni with what's coming up at the world. Well Shari as they learn much. Over Article 15 the Supreme Court gets underway this morning we hear from there and discuss the political fallout of the hearing falling resoundingly no vote in the referendum in Italy Maria Monti the country's former prime minister tells us he hopes that his country can avoid a snap general election and one of newspapers Great several Devon's on the role of photojournalism and have to spot a fake picture in the age of the selfie and You Tube That's all in half an hour mother thank you well it's a year since a safety alert was issued by Whirlpool about millions of tumble dry as it's in the process of modifying more than $4000000.00 machines because of a did a dangerous design fault on Hotpoint in the sit Krieger Swan and pro line dryers The problem is the fluff filter is too near the heater and drives have been catching fire only last week we even yours heard from people with serious doubts about those modifications Chris Moore from reading waited 11 months in total for a whirlpool engineer to come out to work on his machine engineers spent an hour and 40 minutes literally just taking the thing apart replaced lots of parts all it said it will be fine as good as new about 5 minutes after he got on I got some slightly damp washing that I've been airing on top of the other tumble dryer just as a test load and 5 minutes after that the dog started barking and all the smoke alarms went off I went running downstairs and the ground floor was full of a sort of blue grey hazy smoke like a mist and I thought was of lucky that I just escaped a fire while Paul actually ended up providing Chris with a brand new tumble dryer and the firm says a 1000000 machines have so far been successfully repaired but today it's emerged there's a long wait just to register for that modification process Pete Morey is the head of campaigns for the consumer group Which and joins us Pete you've been you. Mystery Shoppers posing as customers with infected machines to contact the individual brands so what have you found out that's right which decided to look one year on from the start of the scandal how Whirlpool is treating their customers we sent 30 undercover mystery shoppers to do calls to the world who call center to find out whether the advice that they were being given was consistent and accurate and actually we found exactly the opposite that the advice to customers was potentially inaccurate and dangerous so we found examples of even though mystery shoppers gave affected model numbers to call center staff one of them was told that their machine was not affected they were even told to throw any letters that they received about their safety notice in the rubbish bit and we found 3 occasions where Mystery Shoppers were told to contact the shop that they bought the machine from for a replacement which is completely wrong because it's whirlpool who have to sort out your replacement or your repair and as you say we also found affected customers waiting for a long time just to get a customer id number with call handlers telling them they'd have to wait 6 to 12 weeks to get a id number and without that number of course you can't start the process of getting a repair or a replacement and we just think this is not good enough well Paula continuing to let their customers down and that they need to sort this mess out what a whirlpool said about this length of time it takes to just register for repair because previously they told us it should take about 10 days Yeah absolutely and while police told us that they're continuing to make improvements to speed up the modification program they've told us that customers are now waiting a month from registration to modification but that's simply not what we're finding at all in fact their own Call Handlers quiting to 6 to 12 weeks many consumers that we're talking to being told that they're going to have to wait over 6 months to get a repaired tumble dryer so very inconsistent findings both more hopeful and from customers themselves and I. Think this shows that they really need to get a grip on the situation well Paul has told us that the safety of consumers is our number one priority and if you have an affected machine you can still use it while you're waiting for repair but you shouldn't leave it unattended please what do you make of this I don't think this is good advice anymore we saw the London Fire Brigade investigation into the fire at Shepherd's Bush where the blaze there of a block of flats the London Fire Brigade said was due to a tumble dryer one of these affected to tumble dryer and London Fire Brigade have said that people should now stop using these machines until they're repaired or replaced and I think that's absolutely the right advice that's our advice as well you heard the story of your listener who got a repaired and replaced machine and then it still led to a potential fire there and so I think people really need to stop using these machines until we're well pull sort out sort sorted out Pete Morey from the consumer group Which Thank you it's 1236 when you're buying your weekly groceries how quickly do you move around the shop research published this week has been examining the tricks supermarkets can use to make you slow down look for longer and potentially spend more scientists in front simply drew horizontal lines on the floor and they found shoppers took longer to get to the ends of the aisles the closer together the lines the longer they dawdled and by contrast they sped up when the gaps between the lines were wider which as Rose is an expert in consumer behavior and he's been looking at this research and he agrees that it could work it is simply a case of perspective you know that if we have a nice long run big open spaces we tend to speed up in order to get to the end of the open space quicker so in the same way that adding horizontal lines to a road helps to reduce speed this is the same piece of research the same piece of behavior that's happening it creates psychological barriers sort of the viewpoint you know your perspex. Your eye is looking at things much closer to you and therefore it retards your speed slightly and now this is being applied into supermarkets of will to help make you spend more the very close lines getting closer and closer and closer on the roads that really does work doesn't it sure Yeah absolutely and and like you alluded to you know the very beginning it is these very very simple changes that we can make that create quite dramatic changes to our behavior when certain you see that as you approach roundabouts those horizontal lines get you know narrower and narrower the distance between the 2 and that helps us slow down what other tricks of the trade of shops using the classic examples that many people will know about are pumping artificial smells such as freshly brewed coffee and and baked goods and bakery and in a supermarket course you don't have to make those artificial You can just ensure that the bakery is coincidently very close to the family or the air conditioning system so that beautiful smell rolls out throughout the supermarket the other thing is that a particular supermarkets will tend to change the layout of the food and the layout of the supermarket fairly regularly so that you don't get used to the same places where all of your goods are because otherwise then of course because we're a little bit lazy as human beings and it takes less cognitive effort we can just walk around almost on autopilot you know we know what that aisle that's where we get the bananas may go down that want to get our kitchen roll because by then moving things around suddenly we have to start paying attention and looking for the thing that we were you know looking for there's originally in the aisle and if it's not there we begin to see items that we didn't see the 1st time around and then of course end up buying more as well but of course music has been used an awful lot you know the types of music that people listen to change their spending you find that the Christmas music starts playing in shops a very very early because it gets us in that festive spritely bright kind of mood and therefore we're more likely to be thinking about giving to other people and buying gifts for other people and therefore more likely to spend more on there is the other side of that coin I mean you mentioned shops insistence on moving stuff around is the mark suspense is a fake. Isn't it which can be deeply irritating and also if they start playing Christmas music really early that can be deep irritating too is there the danger that all these tricks and techniques of manipulation will be spotted by us and saying no thank you I do not wish to be part of your club you probably sound like the last person that they would want shopping in the shops of by all of the John Lewis advert so you know I'm just like everyone else yes I mean manipulation is a very very loaded word and I think it's more about guiding behavior or not Jing behavior I do think stores should be more honest with what they're doing so I think actually certainly in my role as a behaviorist I find that people are fascinated to understand why we do what we do and how our behavior is influenced so I think if they were more honest I think it would have a purpose a slightly less negative undertone as you know as you suggest but yes you're absolutely right there is a danger that it could backfire however with human behavior it's always really a game of statistics you know and for the vast amount of people it works absolutely fine so for the few people like yourself like irritated that they're not overly worried about that because of a vast majority it makes a big difference consumer behaviorist jazz Rose let's hear it for lazy people actually done in sulphide says let's hear it for the yellow sticker he says yellow sticker discounts reduced by 5 percent or less the discounts getting smaller but the yellow sticker still attracts me and this enormous text says Sainsbury's sends me nectar vouchers for 3 pounds off and I spend 30 pounds on live on my own and I can really have spent 30 pounds in one go so how about a 10 percent off voucher instead. After years of declining demand and battling cheap phone imports the British lace industry is seeing something of a mini revival profits are up at the handful of surviving lace manufacturers in and around what was once the heart of the u.k. Lace trade Nottingham names like Gucci pull Smith and dots in the boner. Now Grace the order books and key to this seems to be the use of older machinery some of it dates back to the 19th century as Mike Young reports all. The way from an axe down on my right and for. Stepping off a tram in Nottingham's lace market area you're reminded that upwards of $200.00 factories were once producing lace right here around Nottingham today the buildings in the city's lace market for so long at the heart of the manufacturing and the selling of lace Well they're now flats night clubs and offices to sell everything from lace edged tank is to small doilies which is still popular to run a small tablecloths right John coats worked in lace manufacturing for 40 years running several factories these days he sticks to just selling lace from his Nottingham lace center a small portion of what he sells is locally produced but looking back to his starts in the 1960 s. John says being that local producer of lace proved increasingly difficult times are very tough there were quite a few companies around the still a big presence in Scotland on the Nottingham lace curtains side but it was getting very tough and a lot of imports were coming in half the price of the products that we're producing on our machines and trends have changed too not everyone buys the tablecloths the lace curtains and other lace home where of years ago but John coats has noticed what's helps the home produce lace trade bounce back the fashion trade basically they found it and they like the product and I think they like the old connection with the machines and things high end Paul Smith those sort of people who is also an outing guy rather than the mass manufactured stuff that we get in from Thailand and places like that of course it's not the 1st time the fashion and the lace trades have courted each other. Nottingham is the center of the British plate industry and each year Nottingham holds a ball just to show up the lab that can be made from relinquish late that was 1935 and though the days of balls to showcase the lace finery long gone the technology that produced those dresses 80 years ago well that's still going. That's the sound of 19th and early 20th century machinery producing lever's lace at the Clooney lace factory it's a male custom on the Nottinghamshire Darbyshire border the machines are big twice the height of Charles Mason who's the 9th generation of the family to run the he's taken the decision to sell off his modern machines and rely entirely on the far older technology he says that's a decision that's returned to profitability part of place of these machines made is a space that has made plays as a machine can do this still it is a demand this type may seem natural by. The moment more showmanship but the bobbies been bought on to his mate his father played and that intricacy that quality produced on somewhat old fashioned machinery has paid dividends the Duchess of Cambridge his wedding dress featured Clooney lace and when you look at the customers now buying this lace it's a who's who of high end fashion houses as Charles Mason explained in his rather quieter office there's been quite a huge polarization I've said in the fashion world in the last 2030 years we've concentrated on supplying the likes of Gucci and brie in the u.k. Paul Smith even that policy is one the reasons why we are still here and in terms of global interest you were in the u.s. Last week just how consistent is that global interest in the laces being produced in the Nottinghamshire and surrounding area it's. Really strong quite frankly and the top brands in the States like Austin to rent or that we sell to you know they buy our laces and we still have a strong strong market over there some might be surprised to hear that where cheap imports threaten so much of the u.k. Lace industry its exports that have saved many of the surviving British firms it goes from in the east from as far away as New Zealand Australia through to Singapore a little amount in India Middle East Europe South Africa foreign interest in home produced lace has helped transform the business of Malcolm Jaffe who runs Melnyk lace at running to just south of Nottingham well make is the last British producer of barman lace using much smaller machinery to make trimmings and braids the firm's won the Queen's Award for export and is now selling to more than 40 countries around the globe even without interest in the last decade Malcolm's had to cut stuff and broaden the firm's ranges it's increased turnover and it's also increased probability with the turnover going up we have identified markets around the world . That can use our products and we've identified customers we have very little customers in many many countries now that by repeatedly every month or every 2 months Malcolm Jaffe is still supplying the likes of John Lewis at home firmly believing home production is the best way forward there always be a demand for late that's for sure and the answer is not always importing it the answer is availability and if you making it here everything is on the on control. One warning shot though from Charles Mason at Cluny lakes with a 7 year apprenticeship to learn how to use his machinery there is an urgent need to train new generations in the art of making lace where the only people now who can teach the young people it can really be done in college or out of the factory environment but you know as and when we've got the money in the business we take and you people and we train them for the future is the only way we will survive in the future and Jack Gregory is 18 years old the future of English lace making rests with him his mom works a clue she's who inspired him to get involved and work there too as a kid she used to bring pieces only she made the thought is quite interesting and complex and when I left school 2 years ago it's just as a job going there she got me a job and now all of it from what I hear there's a 7 year apprenticeship in this business to to really learn the craft So yes it's quite an investment in you isn't it takes a while to learn everything and you know even after 7 years you still come across problems that you've never seen before so it's always a learning curve it's always interesting and for someone new to learn what about your confidence in the future because obviously at 18 you're open for a long career possibly here but when you see those closures of so much of the lace industry it must be quite worrying it is worth it because sometimes work gets a little slack in things are slow but then it soon picks up again when it does it's good. That the roof was moved in. And he. Make a jack Gregory ending that report from Mike Young and you can see the pictures of those vast lever's lace machines and some of the lace they produced in the gallery of the unions website is worth a look. Industry bosses and trade union leaders are meeting in Westminster today to discuss the pros and cons of agency work it's an issue we've looked at quite a lot in the past year or so you may remember last week on call you and yours we asked whether people were happy with their pay and thought it was fair and the subject of workers' rights played a large part in what we heard Jane in Manchester is a translator she emailed you and use a b.b.c. Dog you care to tell us how Agency conditions affect her the conditions are so punitive there are time limits I have to arrive to work 10 minutes early My phone has to be on 247 to accept jobs bought a descent time I'm limited by the distance because I earn 15 pounds for the 1st hour and 2 pounds 50 every 15 minutes there after my travel expenses are not paid and I'm also saf employed on as their hours contract so I pay national insurance everything and is just very tiring. But for some it's not so clear cut Joan quill is a chef in Cardiff you know as a good it gives me a good work life balance between home with my children and work the hours are varied or so I get to meet lots of different people and go from a different place to place which keeps my mottoes I could be in a top or restaurant one day or children's nursery or university the next so yeah it's an amazing way to work if I need extra cash it's normally there are very very pro agency work would definitely suggest it to anybody looking for a change in direction 2 very different opinion so is agency work good thing for the U.K.'s workforce or a lasting problem Kevin Greene is the chief executive of the recruitment and Employment Confederation and how to reduce employment rights policy officer with the Trades Union Congress or to you see how to read Can I go to you 1st we've just heard there from the chef John quill about how these short term contracts work for him and how they can help people when it comes to what he describes as his work life balance so agency work clearly isn't a bad thing for everyone t.c.s. Concern is that for growing numbers of individuals it's not a positive choice to be an agency worker it's the only way that they can actually get a job in the particular sector that they want to work in we are concerned that agency workers too often lose out whether it's in terms of pay loss of key employment rights also in terms of tax arrangements so we think that it's important and welcome that people are even seeing this issue some people might argue that people do have a choice they don't have to take on these agency jobs well certainly in some in streets that's the case but if you're looking at some food processing sectors some parts of logistics lorry drivers around warehouses the only way through which employers recruit staff it's through employment agencies and often individuals. Or employed year after year after year through an agency it's not really necessary a stepping stone into a permanent job have you noticed an increase in agency working where say a very big supermarket would have fewer of its own staff but more agency staff to fill those gaps Yes the t.t.c. Is really concerned that in some sectors what we're seeing is the displacement of permanent jobs with agency working we have course recognized by the way that there are some genuine The Testament reasons why employers may want to use agency workers to cover peaks and troughs in demand supine specialist skills all to cover short term absences but our concern is that we're seeing an upward trend in the number of agency workers in this country and many of those agency workers are being employed on a long term basis and never being offered secure contracts or guaranteed pay well Kevin Greene can I go to you Jane we heard there telling us a few minutes ago how she isn't paid for travel time between jobs and she's constantly on call for a job surely that isn't the best way to treat workers No agree I mean I think one of the things we find is quite often it's very little to do with how people are engraved and how employees treat people there are many full time permanent staff that aren't treated very well by their employer agency workers are very very regulated workers rights in terms of pension holiday party national living wage strategery sic 5 resprayed protection the same party that they would get if they were fought on employer because of agency workers white so they're hugely protected this is been going on for 60 years in a neighbor's employers to balance peaks and troughs when it wasn't for agency workers in the n.h.s. Would have no doctors and nurses on our wards at the weekend can I say that we recognize organizations such as wrecker trying to push up standards within the agency sector but the reality is that agency workers do lose out on key employment rights they don't genuinely have but generally have protection from unfair dismissal. They can be sacked without notice they also lose out on many family friendly rights such as paid time off for maternity leave in the right to return to their job after after maternity leave The other problem that agency workers face in this country is a major difficulty in enforcing their rights under the law technically the agency is often the individual's employer but it's the hire who sets their work tells them how they have to work and actually is responsible for how they're treated in the workplace but if an individual is sacked or faces discrimination in the workplace by hiring employer they face serious challenges or difficulties in taking that includes course we think that there needs to be a level playing field for agency workers we recognize there's a role for agency workers in this country but they ship be guaranteed equal pay for the job that they're doing and they should be guaranteed basic fair decent treatment in the workplace and the law at the moment just simply does not provide that I don't stand the recognize there are 2 I think there's huge amounts of regulation of our members will be applying to give people protection we're regulated by the conduct regs Working Time Regulations employment rights so all of these protections of workers that are around happy can take employment tribunals out so there's always recourse most agencies that a want to treat their temporary workers as well as they possibly can you know it really is quite annoying that it's always the downside only 30 percent of people who work as agency workers want a full time job the vast majority are happy with how they're engaged like working that why because it gives them Palance enables them to spend more time with their family pursue other activities you know individuals want choice and they are prepared to sacrifice some things in relation to holiday pay and how they're engaged in perhaps some sort of security because they'd much rather be in control of their own destiny how to read is that your experience that the vast majority of people working this way are happy t. . Recognizes that a minority of individuals doing agency work like the flexibility too many agency workers in this country don't receive the going rate for the job and I don't know what your listeners would feel like if they were working month a month a month alongside an individual doing exactly the same job as they do but they get a higher rate of pay than you do as an agency worker we think that's simply unfair and we want to have conversations with the government we'd like to talk to reconceive others about how we move forward to ensure that agency working really offers a fair deal for working people not just simply a temporary option for those people who want flexibility at work to read from the t. You see and Kevin Green for recruitment and Employment Confederation That's all for today tomorrow it's call you and yours you're going to love this how is how important is it to have a clean house are you immaculate at home or are you about.