When she offered to introduce him on self what sensible future generations would prioritize the revival of cryo preserved people why would they do that when they will have the same priorities for health which $150.00 or 200 years into the future that we have now plus why so many Gypsies and Travellers are turning from their traditional beliefs to the movement known as light and life getting drunk and fighting and that sort of thing was pretty much a travellin person's a different person it's culture but obviously being born again you change in the sense is that you don't want that lot of them or you want to clean life and to follow Christ in a Westminster Abbey and Westminster Cathedral will both be lit up in red on Wednesday it's not yet another reason to feel cross about the commercialization of Christmas it's to publicize a report on the state of religious freedom in the World Report's been drawn up by the Catholic charity aid to the church of Needham and joined by its editor John Pontifex Good morning good morning ad you've been I'm piling up the verbal multipliers you talk about something called Islamist hyper extremism what exactly. But what we found when we looked at $196.00 countries around the world there is every nation on earth we found that if you look at the individual circumstances of people on the ground there that we're seeing a rise of very different type of Islam which is departing from much of the narrative that we've used to and which is very directly aggressive in its expression and it seeks the very worst that that humankind can throw at one another and we've seen as I've seen in Syria and Iraq and Pakistan we're seeing a rise of an extremist Islam that seeks to annihilate other communities by killing that in some cases by forcing them out to many other cases and by committing terrible atrocities in that context what do you make of what the Archbishop of Canterbury said in a talk in Paris this week he said if we treat you. Literally motivated violence soley as a security issue or a political issue it will be incredibly difficult to overcome it in other words we need to acknowledge the religious roots of some of this kind of thing this exactly is what pointing to in this report registry them in the World Report with a to the church in need working on it because we recognize that there has been a narrative of trying to pretend in many ways that these issues are more exclusively to do with social issues to do with economic issues but actually what we're saying is those things apply but what we've forgotten is the religious dimension and while we know full well that there are many who reject this intolerance there are others who are buying into it and it's causing and in terrible harm in many parts of the world if you talk about it is unprecedented Why is it I mean why not. It's unprecedented because what we you're seeing is the use of the Internet the social media as a means of galvanizing support for also recognizing that. Even 20 years ago I was in could you know in northern Nigeria and we saw the way in which Muslim communities in Christian communities working together now if you go to the tuna it's not like that you're seeing people that are unable to go to parts of the city which until recently they've been able to go to and it's because of this new form of extremism that is causing huge division and many many Muslims are deeply deeply unhappy by this possibly sort of looked right across the world this is the only form of religious intolerance of extremism that you found absolutely right and in the report we found strong evidence to show that there examples of Hindu extremism the indued for Buddhist extremism is also featured in our executive summary and also Jewish extremism as well in in in Israel and elsewhere but the most important thing is to recognize that if we speak about these issues openly frankly we can then build a basis of factual evidence on which to have more frank and open discussions and find ways to overcome the problems that we've seen in recent years notice when religion left off your little list or what about Christian extremism isn't of left off with very little of the you are a Catholic Charities Well what we did in this report is be looked across the board of all faith groups including Christians but we found that the evidence to show that Christian extremism is in any way on a par with what we're seeing with ISIS with some of these other groups it bears no comparison we're not saying it doesn't exist but we need to get things in perspective and we need to point fingers of blame where point fingers need to be pointed and we need to act with due respect for the rule of law quick final answer the big question of the short answer if you could. Is there anything that governments can take away from your report that helps them deal with this I think the diff the difficult issue is of course governments are interested in looking at economic advantage they go to countries like Pakistan China economic advantage is the main thing but what that can do is Eclipse human rights issues you need to recognise this in the long term there is a need to recognise religious rights because that way countries can work together more harmoniously and economic wealth can thrive on that basis John Pontifex from the church a new Thanks very much indeed for coming in Thank You us weeks about some of the more than 80 Anglo-Saxon graves have been discovered at great rubber of the north coast has caused great excitement among archaeologists and church historian as the graves were dug between the 7th and night subtrees they were almost certainly Christian so what can they tell us about the transition between paganism and Christianity here codebook it reports what in the world of archaeology this has been a tremendously exciting week I've come to Museum of London archaeology has offices in Northampton I'm standing outside world I'm 26 I'm with Jim Faircloth and Mark Holmes who between them supervise the excavation at great Reiber up and we're about to walk through the door I'll follow you Jim. And wow this is extraordinary looking at 2 tables and on each of the tables there are skeletons of chimneys or how old 12 years old so but Saxon period the 1st thing you notice that they are colored which I suppose stands to reason Absolutely they are that where they were excavated is very wet ground and so they can stain over the years by being in these in those soils and Jim you actually were in charge of the excavation site so tell me what did you 1st see when you turned up what we 1st found was a wood in situ which then turned out to be the arch of a coffin then as we ship the area further back we found you had rows upon rows of base individual graves you could see a rectangle a dark rectangle where the grave was so we carefully excavate expose the entire skeleton itself photographed recorded fall then off the carefully left and me from sight and Mark how much do we know about these skeletons at the moment do we know for example if they're male or female the vast majority seem to be adults and it may be that we have both a male and a female present but it's very early days and the announces only really just starting now but you've already drawn the conclusion that this was almost certainly a Christian burial site based on the lay of the century in the treatment of remains you've got an early Christian cemetery I say at the cemetery self all the burials were east west and also we found I see no grave goods from the individuals which again points to early Christian traditions even though grave goods there was nothing inside the coffins with the skulls and the things in the coffins were the individuals themselves so this practice that existed of placing artefacts and so on inside the coffins of an that was pre-Christian that was a pagan Yes that earliest Saxon sandwiches you do find a lot more things like weapons jewelry and things and apart from discovering the graves you also discovered the remains of what you think was a building yes in the center of the cemetery a basis a small structure roughly 6 by 4 metres the general idea is that the small church or chapel related to the small Christian community. Just along the corridor from Room $26.00 this is a workshop where each of the burdens from all $87.00 skeletons was painstakingly scrubbed clean it was a process which took months to complete the next task will be to date to the bones then to carry out a detailed analysis John Heinz professor of archaeology at Cardiff University said the conversion of the Anglo Saxons to Christianity began in the late 6th century and continued throughout most of the 7th century which is when the 1st graves were being dug on the site a great writer of the church clearly had consolidated its own organization and its position within the Anglo-Saxon societies we shouldn't treat it as a single society there were separate kingdoms by the last $3.00 to $4.00 decades of the 7th century so I would expect the datings to come back and show us this particular cemetery represents a community that is a stablished in that 1st confident and secure phase of the church in England and when you say community what are you are you talking about a monastery perhaps my suspicion from the evidence that I'm looking at so far is that this may very likely be a religious community of the form of a monastery the fact that the burials are around a building that's aligned east west that looks very much like a small church the very regularity of the burials does suggest this but we will certainly have to wait for more archaeological evidence in Austria logical evidence to come back if for instance it turns out that this is largely a single sex community if we only really have older juveniles and adults being buried there all of that I think would point as very strongly in the direction of a monastic community but time will tell on that the majority of the graves that have been for. These were burials that were carried out using this technique of wooden coffins that were actually formed out of hollowed out trees yes what does that tell us Well it's extremely exciting it is I think one paralleled from the Anglo-Saxon period in symbolic terms the use of the log coffin like this it's something that we have paralleled from long before Christianity in the Bronze Age and in particular in Denmark we have a number of excellent examples of this within the Christian context the obvious interpretation is that it reflects the importance of the Tree of Life as an element in Christie and thought and indeed the concept of the cross has being the instrument of salvation the great Reiber excavation was funded partly by historic England their chief executive Duncan Wilson believes the investment is already been justified even though the most exciting discoveries have probably yet to be made we can only speculate at this stage about how significant all of this might be but we might well find links between the individuals genetic links between the individuals we might well find where these individuals grew up from isotope analysis of the bones all of that could help to explain whether this is a migrant community an Indigenous community whether the individuals were related whether it is a relatively short period of time over which they were buried or whether we're talking about several generations here lots of questions and hopefully we'll get some interesting answers Dr Wilson any of that report by Kevin bouquet the operation in Germany this week to clamp down on the Islamic organization known as the true religion involved almost 200 police raids mosques offices and homes action was taken under the law which also bans neo nazi groups Professor Peter Neumann is the director of the International Center for the Study of Radicalization. Political Violence at King's College London he told me what we know about the group it's a group that emerged in 2005 it's broadly called Salafist group it had a few 100 members it became very prominent because it set up a stands in pedestrian zones where it was distributing the Qur'an but really what it is being accused of is to facilitate travel to Syria 140 of its affiliates and members have traveled to Syria to join Islamic state and in the past it's praised Islamic state and it's praised martyrdom operations in various places but tell us a bit about the man who founded the Who Not you so he is someone who came to Germany a few decades ago he became a businessman then he started that organization it became a very radical organization and because he used to be a businessman he was quite savvy in creating promotion for the group you so used to be the cues to of things kind of travel agent Omas would be one who gives or do you think the accusations are right they were sort of in a grace zone in the sense that they knew exactly what the legal limits they were never calling for violence they were never explicitly adore sing Islamic state but they were indoctrinating people with exactly the ideology that facilitated travel to Syria and individuals within that group were also facilitating the travel itself it wasn't a group it was individuals within that group and that's why for such a long time they've been able to evade any formal ban because it was never the group as such it was always individuals within the group but now that strange now there is a formal Now that's change to happen so I do think that authorities have finally been able to collect evidence and we will have to see exactly what that is to prove that that group as a group was not only against the. Institution of Germany but that also was explicitly involved in facilitating support for a terrorist organization which is a criminal offense in Germany and that basically prompted the ban I personally think that German authorities are you know a little bit overoptimistic in thinking that that ban will necessarily eliminate the people behind that group because as we've seen in Britain once a group is banned they can simply set up another group and it will perhaps take another 10 years for that group to be banned so you can these associations it's very difficult to ban people or ideas it's interesting that as I understand it the lore under which has been banned is a certain law that bans not to musicians Yes I mean there is an apparatus of laws in Germany that doesn't exist in Britain for example which is essentially a legacy of the 3rd Reich which allows associations to be banned because they are against the constitution or because Dan citing violence and these laws have in the past predominantly been used against far right groups but there's no inherent reason why they can't also be used against jihadist groups is it islamic I mean this is it a distortion of Islam or is it a genuinely Islamic group I will I would argue that it represents a position on the spectrum of Islam so it is Islamic but it would be wrong to describe it as Islam or representing Islam just in the same way in which neo nazis perhaps represent a an expression of German ness but certainly they do not represent the majority the vast majority of Germans that have a different relationship to their country today as a German myself I would always agree that neo nazis are German but do they represent the kind of German that I associate with my country definitely not so yes this group was Islamic in some sense but do they represent Islam absolutely no 1st Peter minimum. Of the 14 year old girl whose body has been cryogenically frozen in the hope that she can be brought back to life if a cure for cancer is found has prompted a good deal of discussion of this area of science or some might say pseudo science but putting aside the question whether cryonics can be made to work is the practice ethical John Millbank is the America's professor of religion politics and ethics at Lossie in university and John Harris is America's professor of the ethics of science I'm just a professor Milbank explained his reservations 1st of all it seems to me a kind of grossly exploitative business because we have absolutely no that this kind of really animation is ever going to be possible and quite likely it isn't and the 2nd thing I think is an issue of human dignity that the Living need a kind of proper closure on this and leaving people in a state where it's as if they're half alive as if they haven't properly sort of neither respects the dead nor the living and I think the reason why we bury people is precisely because we're saying well we respect the body as a kind of sign of the living person that once you've died actually there's a real sense this is what Aquinas thought actually that that body is not the same body as the living body because it no longer has the single form of the animated body so the right place for it is underground and that is the beginning of the collapse of human dignity in my view well that's a hugely over before you come to that John Howard is far from being a kindness to somebody like the young girl in this particular case it's actually a fraud on them if you promise them that this might work and therefore get them to have the body present I have many reservations about crime preservation but they don't amount to thinking that the judge. Was wrong to permit it in this case nor did they amount to thinking that it should somehow be banned or made in possible John Milbank suggested quite rightly that it was raising false hopes because we don't know well if we don't know we don't know whether the hopes of false I think it's very unlikely that the cry appears of ation will work but it might be it's very unlikely also that if crowd preservation is perfected it will be perfected very quickly and one has to ask oneself what sensible future generations would prioritise the revival of Crimea preserve people who are likely to still need expensive interventions and not be very well and perhaps never be restorable to full health and functioning Why would they do that when they will have the same priorities for health which $150.00 or 200 years into the future that we have now part of the fraud if it is one is to think that it should generations unlikely to a bay the instructions of the of the long since consigned to the French child mill but what about the point that I suspect a lot of people listen to this may have in their minds which is that Ok it probably won't happen for all the reasons that we've just heard but if it brings a bit of hope a bit of comfort to somebody when the dying perhaps well spent a little bit of money on that I truly think it isn't because the idea that we need to sort of can so dying people with illusions is exactly why some people in my view wrong criticize religion if we take people seriously then it's much better that they face up to the reality that they're going to be dead the point of sort of coming to terms with your own death is that instead of an uneasy hope which is sort of full of 2. It'll anxiety either you resign yourself to the fact that you simply will be no more or if you have a religious faith you say well then I will exist eternally I will exist in the presence of God and this isn't a sort of vague kind of hope puts a certain kind of certainty and I think John Milbank everywhere can do what they want to do and one of the problems with the I think the tenor of your remarks is that you don't want people to be able to do this even though they may be foolish and ill advised as so many people know everything that I joke about let John has been I actually don't think there is any obligation to come to terms with one's own death I would gladly live forever if it were possible could you address John Milbank's deeper point which was that this is not in keeping with the whole business of coming to terms with death and that it is damaging to human dignity Well I think neither of those things are plausible true there's no reason why people have to come to terms with death the raging against the dying of the light is an equally dignified and indeed human if that is important response to death well let's just talk about what you are supposed to whenever it happens death is a certainty you know it's an existential certainty and thinking about that and coming to terms with that I think precisely helps you to give meaning chill life and we have to say to ourselves seriously you know do we really want endlessly to prolong life what does that mean for future generations isn't there a sense whether you're religious or not in which natural death is a good thing because a life has a net troll narrative shape to it you know and actually the idea that it just goes on forever is not good because finally chewed is inherently as funny chewed imperfect it's clearly not the highest kind of like mind the facts of you know if you can you make it John you know that you can't have it both ways he can demand that we come to terms. But with the certainty of our own death and then say that it would be a very bad thing if we could to spend it indefinitely if we could dispense it indefinitely then we don't have to come to terms with our own death there is only one thing wrong with dying and that is doing it when you don't want to very quickly John Bill back isn't there a bit of you that would quite like to live forever it's a philosophical illusion that death is something you can do or even that death is something that happens to you I think that could come a point where we had to ask ourselves was the endless postponement of life the preservation of anything that can seriously be called human life and I don't have a set of easy answers to that question Professor John Milbank and John Harris times trying to 6 minutes to 8 to listen Sunday Still to come in the program behind them the cap Why did some British women become Salaf is what I found they all had in common was this sense of in a way an intellectual conviction that this was the pure authentic version of Islam that they've been seeking usually for a number of years large numbers of Gypsies and Travellers and they say they've given up drinking alcohol and fortune telling because they joined a new Christian movement called light and life in the the movement claims the allegiance of up to 40 percent of British gypsies but as Alex Strangways booth report the movement is controversial in some quarters. Followed. By. Nearly 3000 people gathered here in a blue and white stripes big top tent on an agricultural show ground in Wales. This is the annual light and life convention centered around a Pentecostal movement which has been growing among the gypsy communities of Europe since the end of the 2nd World War and the Holocaust in which so many. Gypsy community suffered to follow players it took much longer to reach the u.k. But the growth since the eighty's has been described as explosive light and life is unique most of the past as a gypsies they don't get paid a many of the original leaders in Europe couldn't read or write. Better pasta Jay Mitchell is the treasurer of the u.k. Church he's a gypsy himself and as witness the movement's growing popularity something that will make a huge difference in the sense you know we encourage people to pay the tax you know the Bible says give Caesar what is Caesar's you know give God what is God's 1st getting drunk and fighting and that sort of thing was pretty much a travellin person's a different person it's culture but obviously being born again you change in the sense is that you don't want that lot of them or you want to cling on to you know you don't want the pubs and the not clubs and the drugs and everything that goes along with that you just want a peaceful life and to follow Christ you know and these followers of the church agree with him the life changes because you go from one extreme to another you go from being sold to Stormers. Become we become professional lines you know I was one of them to the point of where you know what's wrong my mother used to call telling fortunes son in the kitchen and sometimes to complain I didn't think it was wrong to do it was just another reverend in English and all the gypsies outside the movement they take issue with this description of their culture they're all those who admit that there is a problem with alcoholism in the community but they say the religion is capturing people who are in real trouble in their lives so you will end up hearing a lot of the stories of redemption within the light and Life Church. To find out how far it spread have come to a much more secular event in the gypsy and traveller calendar the Appleby horse fair. Established since at least the 1700s it's a chance for families and friends to meet catch up on news sell horses and perhaps meet a future husband or wife I've been invited to spend the weekend here by the phase organizer Billy Welsh his father was one of the 1st English gypsies to join the Pentecostal light and life movement in the early 1980 s. It's a perfect illustration of our culture traditions and life this has been so exaggerated over the storm believe but it's just the nature of the media when the when the world we live in it's actually. With the likes of Glastonbury and the average football match on a Saturday afternoon is no way near the problems they create this place makes you feel closer to God and we do feel closer to go to America. Unlike the Big Lie To Life Convention I visited Appleby isn't about faith but faith groups still come here to spread their message drink drugs gamble and all out as it did because you try to fill a hole. There's a god within the laws. Of God light and life a here with a van and again. I met who keep his mission he is finding new members and I asked him what he thinks of the fair parts. Of Sodom and Gomorrah this everything don't you every possible thing going on. In the bus was a person I would probably have a less I'll give a father's job which is probably Virgin that's wrong and Hades d.p. Critical of the Catholic and Anglican faiths that many travelers were brought up in when you will be trained from being a small age to just see a lawyer yes we know the tell laws but yet we're deceived the same way the Protestant church the Catholic Church it's all the same laws. Never even you have come to me Father Dan Mason who's just been appointed as the Catholic Church's chaplain to Gypsies and Travellers several people have said to me that Catholicism is a man made religion and that's why they've moved to it you know they always like the light life better to him and maybe talking about the ritual and the statues of Virgin Mary and that sort of thing within the Catholic Church we have 2 aspects that are both important the role of scripture God's word contained in the Bible and the role of tradition within the Protestant tradition particularly the hardline Porton tradition there is only scripture tradition isn't considered to be valued but we take you know great comfort you know from the tradition that has developed over the years and I would say that was true of many members of the travelling community as well the tradition is import. And is valued and something to be celebrated rather than just dismiss the earth out there oh it's estimated up to a 3rd of English gypsies are joining this movement and claiming a big transformation in how they live their lives. They may be leaving behind that Catholic or Anglican faith but note that gypsy culture and identity. There is Pauline going to go to. Their god. Alex trying to raise booth reporting there's a book out this week called the making over some of the woman pastor conversion it's an investigation into why modern British women are attracted to a strand of Islam which dictates a very traditional way of life the author is Dr Bill in and I asked her to explain what Salafism the term seller fee just literally means that you attach yourself to what's called the so laugh and the so laugh the 1st 3 generations of miss them so we talking about the prophets and his disciples those who came after them and those who came after them and Salah fees today tend to seek to emulate the ways of the slough as literally and strictly as possible and also the guidance set out in the scriptures and that's why they tend to be associated with very socially conservative practices especially concerning women Southie women will often wear a face veil and a car for example they tend to believe that you should obey your husband and adopt a traditional gender role they also believe in very strict gender segregation secluding ourself or non-related men you make the point that many of the practices of Salafism are very conservative and many women would think today very restrictive in terms of what they mean for the way that women live and that's quite often led to the assumption from the outside world that women are forced into these roles did you find that to be the case. Not at school in fact I was looking for signs of social pressures if not outright coercion as a feminist than myself I did have my concerns about the face veil and practices like that but what I found was if anything they were subject to social pressure to do the opposite to take off their veils they would see if it Clee these women from less conservative Muslim backgrounds so their parents perhaps and mothers wore a headscarf but certainly not the face veil or they were actually converts from other religions or no religious backgrounds at all so their families were typically outraged by their decisions become Salah fees and some of them reacted by threatening their daughters and even in some extreme cases being violent towards their daughters because of the decision to become Salah fees which they made independently of them well $1.00 have to ask them what made them do it every woman story was completely unique some was spurred by personal crises varying in intensity that could be the death of a close relative getting them to think seriously about religion others no such crisis much more gradual process but what I found they all had in common was this sense of in a way an intellectual conviction that this was the pure authentic version of Islam that they had been seeking usually for a number of years and it was often at college or university when they reached that point of conversion to Salafism and they'd often been through various experiments with different religious groups and particularly different Muslim groups eventually the sound of the version of Islam was much more compelling in that they and kids what they said in the scriptures they were very skillful in backing up everything they said with Scriptures and that was a kind of reference point that they could. Good access and believe in rather than following the views of different shakes that they encountered on campus so did you as you describe yourself as a feminist not muslim feel sympathetic to the process slightly gone through I think when I 1st entered the field I did have my concerns as I said about the face veil and practices such as the bang husbands I did worry that this was a regression in women's hard won rights and I have to say I personally dislike the face veil the niqab I personally dislike it but I have to appreciate that women have the right to wear if they choose to wear and what I was finding was evidence only that they were choosing to wear it I didn't find a single case of women being forced to wear it I suspect a lot of people listening to this may ask themselves are these the sort of women who will go off and join ISIS this is a misconception I believe and that the vast majority of Salah fees and certainly the vast majority of Salafist in the u.k. Are not only nonviolence but they tend to be very against political activities such as demonstrating and lobbying and even these kinds of activities and what I found as well was that their leaders have actually been very vocal and active in condemning ISIS in the strongest possible terms one Sufi preacher for example created an anti ice this leaflet and put it on the Internet and asked his followers to mass distribute it in their communities and this leaflet went so far as to say that you should inform the non muslim or thirty's if you get wind of a terrorist plot so I think not only are they nonviolent but they're also very manly and c.j. How does an anti these kind of trends that we've seen as with ISIS about. Gafcon describes itself. As a global family of authentic Anglicans the acronym stands for the global Anglican Future Conference and it's regarded by some as an embryonic traditionalist breakaway church its u.k. Arm this week published a list of people in the Church of England who it claims violated a Lambeth Conference resolution on sexuality when seen the Church of England bishop has described the steps as outrageous the Bishop of souls Britain it calls them is on the line and the lines the chairman of Gafcon ukase with me go into both good morning Adeline's Why did you do this well initially the paper was designed as a briefing paper for the primates in elsewhere in the Anglican communion we decided to publicize it because all of it was in the public domain it wasn't outing anyone and we wanted the ordinary church goer to know just the extent of what we consider to be the breaches of what the international church has agreed if it's purpose was simply neutral and informational in the way that you just characterized it why in your conclusion did you cite describe situation the church being that as a scandal. Well it's a it's a very serious situation where you have a church that believe says it believes one thing and actually does another and what we were trying to demonstrate was that once the Church of England was holding. As it says to its traditional doctrinal position actually it is doing many different things in different parts which would allow that because I'm outrageous is a strong word to use what justifies that I think it's that the document contains so many inaccuracies and errors I mean there shalt not bear will false witness is one of the 10 Commandments and this breaks that pretty spectacularly It also focuses on individuals in a way that I think is really unfair on them laypeople as well as ordained people who didn't know they were going to be named in this document and used in this way and I think it's a really shocking document and you answer that there could have been others that were included but what we did include words Soli those who were already in the public domain all of that and it's inaccurate So for example the one behind about is a priest who lives in this diocese who is not licensed here you say his license that you've corrected that now on the website by innuendo say that innuendo to describe something which isn't true it's not an accurate position to primates who are in parts of the end of the communion who will find this a very difficult discussion to learn but not in $98.00 document says this is an issue over which we must confess we are not of one mind let me get what we had to you're gonna sit in the open if we can be made a very serious accusation which is that they are your baffling u.k.r. Unjustly smeary people I suppose underlines what's responsible and were some minor factual errors which hold them has. Acknowledged at least in one case have been corrected but they were minor his letter of the Church Times also contained but what if these names one. In the public domain what was gained by naming them in what you could read as a kind of a list of shame if you like I know that's how it's been portrayed but we were in no way outing people who were not already in the public domain it was a color lation it was bringing together people whose names were already in the press and it was the significance of naming somebody who works for the Church of England Pensions Board as a gay man what's the significance of that in this document is that about homosexual practice what I don't understand what you are trying to do and it seems to me that you have really stepped over the line by focusing on these individuals Well the people many of the people who have expressed outrage at being named also now openly signed on a website to say that they are proud violators of the Lamberth one documents so I think this is about Lambert I want to let him finish let let him finish I find it quite hard when someone claims to be a victim of our naming them but actually then goes on to put their own name out in the public sphere to say exactly what we've said a quick response that this isn't about them but want and that's what people like me as bishops to maintain the discipline and unity of the church in that way individuals within the church are allowed to contribute there are different views on this and the Lambeth documents do say we read and understand the Scriptures differently and we must confess that and we must work with it in charity with one another and this feels a breach of charity to me Do you worry it will underlines that this I mean you've talked about this document where people say they're quite proud of this do you think this might actually have the opposite effect to the one you intend that it'll become a kind of rallying position for the other side of the debate. My concern is primarily to ensure that. The Church of England under its bishops who are the guardians of the apples dollar. Deposit deposit keep it so that and therefore that people in the churches understand and know what the position of the Church of England is I think what our brother and sisters around the world would love to know is is precisely where we stand if we if we have moved then let's say so and they can take a well people will have simply that Bishop the idea of clarity on this question is a good thing and perhaps this will encourage them not to push it just. Talking about the importance of good disagreement and good disagreement depends on us talking truthfully with one another about things that are difficult and that does require clarity but it also requires dealing with each other's positions truthfully and seeing the best in each other rather than the worst so is it simply the fact that they were in accuracies in this that gives you a problem or something more than the electorate is are a problem and far more than a few but the naming of individuals I think steps over the line in terms of identifying them on a list which is not sympathetic to them and makes them vulnerable to being targeted and the people the people involved they might they might be known not to list them like this didn't want to you know you're going to rip people for primates you simply don't understand it let me know when I was whether Does it worry you that some of these people might not be vulnerable to criticism or worse well in that their names were already in the public sphere we didn't use those who weren't and so we were concerned and we did exercise discretion in terms of who or what was put in the public domain Well we will leave it there thank you both very much indeed for joining us in next week's program we have an exclusive interview with Van Firth the daughter of Archbishop Desmond Tutu and she tells us why she decided to give up her Anglican Church license after she married a woman and should be talking about some of the issues we just the basics of what disturbs me about all of the jumping up and down that we do about homesick short. Lation ships' is that we make the relationship about sex and the reality is the vast power of the relationship is about 2 people who love one another who supported.