But no I'm askin please to take it that's all I want but I don't like your doctor and you want me to. Get rid of. Them fix very. Very carefully at what you want to take it for the joy Hopper wants of 103 but it's got. You can get it I think every 10 minutes or for a better time of my career on the wake of. The Barack Obama also the boss on toll roads you're a part of that rather reserved Web site these people I could hear I don't know what they were. And you've got to understand have seats and I think ultimately he's. Got to go into the Oh come on William I'm with you oh no look at the size of this Q What chance do we stand we'll never get and I'll stop moaning I'm going to get in to see this ballet if we have to line up all night now get on the cue quick time look it's moving it's moving Come on. Now well it was. Richmond. You see with the bus cube flannelette. Classic comedy every day b.b.c. Radio 4 x. Just then on b.b.c. Sent. B.b.c. Radio 4. It's 7 o'clock Hello I'm stepsons and in this hour will join the award winning radio lab show about curiosity where sound illuminates ideas in the pantry split between science philosophy and human experience this week Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich will explore the benefits and costs of seeing a situation from a dump a site. And then Dr Adam Rutherford will deploy his knowledge of science and genetics as a weapon against ignorance and prejudice reading from his new book How to argue with a racist. First we had stateside to ask what's left when you're right in Radio Lab. Door listening to Radio Lab radio from the unit w n y c. And n p r. This is Andy Rowe go here. He's a t.v. Producer in London and in his office where we reached him he's got these very special metal balls this is the original prototype of the golden bowl is lovely and shiny it's very light it was the size of maybe an orange or a tennis ball in gold lace a very satisfying. Places and that is the sound of betrayal. Zandi has used these balls to bring out the worst in people to show how ugly and conniving we can be but also how wonderful and if you think you know a bad call back then you could win big. We're talking about a game show called of course Golden Bull and he was one of the executive producers did pretty well we were really really proud golden ran for 3 years in the u.k. Maybe 300 episodes in question space of time. 6 such fun and it is fun because in many ways it is just a normal game show but. I would argue there is more going on here in fact about to argue that because there is a moment in one of those 300 episodes one moment. That I just cannot shake. Because you remember the 1st time I showed you just this clip certain I was totally totally totally thrown by it because what's about to happen is that 2 guys with totally different moral philosophies are about to go yes some fascinating results and this story in fact inspired the whole show it did today 3 different smack downs all that somehow smack down not in the way that you would expect different people different dreams different worldviews. We're calling the show what's left when you're right. Which is a genius move here you'll find that out later it will ultimately make sense perfect sense I think for now can we get the gold balls happen and. All I can remember was that. All right so before we get to the moment that I want to talk about we kind of have to walk a few paces to sort of lay the foundation which is that we have to explain the rules of this game which are you cannot describe bulls in a sentence to anybody it makes no sense whatsoever but I will try and simplify so basically there are all these early rounds where people are mourning money losing money cheating each other lying strategizing voting one another off the show and the skip all that because it is in the last 5 minutes all hell breaks loose. I mean that classic shout at the telly moment we're sitting at home going. From pretty close to people believe it just did because basically the whole game culminates with a face off you know face a very straightforward choice 2 players sit on opposite sides of a table with this host between them yeah just for cameras moment when you get to this moment at the end of the game where there's 2 people facing each other in the spotlight it's all gone quiet. In the moment their hearts are racing because they've got to make this key choice which is not just about money it is a choice that will reveal who they really are not who you all are Ok what humanity's soul will be laid bare this may be true but why don't we just lay out the rules themselves Sorry carry away know those you know right so in the final round each of the contestants get 2 golden balls and they are the most important golden balls of the guy one ball says Split You each other golden ball with the word clipped written inside the other ball says Steele you both have a ball with the word steal written unsigned now split x. a You and I are playing right here. If I choose a split ball what I'm really saying is that this jackpot whatever it is say it's 3200 pounds sterling Ok You know I'm saying I want to split it with you let's just split in half 5050 even steven I'm a good guy now if you also choose split. Then we split it. Would. You get I get half everybody's happy the feeling of kind of joy that everybody had when it was split it was fantastic your both going home with 1600 pounds inc. Ok so that's one outcomes one of 4 outcomes I believe because obviously there are other ways this could go one or both of the contestants can choose Steve and what Steele basically says is forget sharing I want to take the whole thing for myself and if we both decide that if you both choose to steal pool we both screw each other and it cancels out you leave today's game with what you came with. Nothing nobody gets anything that stoically says nothing to greedy people deserve nothing nothing so if we both decided to split it is mutually good if we both decide to steal it is mutually bad you know where things get thorny is so you got a mismatch like one person choose a split the other person chooses steal now and that scenario the person who chose split the nice guy or gal gets nothing whereas the person who chose steal the conniving duplicitous bastard takes everything. So you use if you should steal and the other person is crime then Jew walk away with the money if the basic idea is that there is an incentive to share because if you split is what each person takes half but there is also an incentive to lie because if I can convince you to share the money and I turn around and shaft you well then I get more money that way. And the best part about this game for our purposes is that before the contestants make a choice Jasper the host gets them to talk to each other about what they're going to do before I ask you to choose I think you have some tool to do to reach out to watch this when you've got a young blonde girl facing off with a larger gentleman with a moustache older in the jackpot is 100000 pounds Stephen I just hope they let me down and there will be a whole new ingenue in the can this place I am going to split this up to. 50000. I'm just on its own little 50000. She's crying at this point she's kind of adorable I like her she's that good in this and if I still feel everything especially that we're going over to lynch me there is no way I'm going I mean everyone who knew me would just get disgusted because she has gripping his legs he's up to something I can look you in the. Night and saw you. Take a swig don't you I'll be going to split Ok. This is serious money. Steve choose either the split or the steel ball now. Hold it up. With 50. Moment of Truth. 7 he chose what she chose steal bud give the nice girl was there be a nice girl with a bad every time I see this eternally breaks my heart because a guy just falls under the desk he's got his head in his hands it's just the roid fever and I'm so sorry commiseration loss is just awful evil isn't that such a good little guy. And here's the thing if you analyze all the outcomes which social scientists have done what you see is that a majority of the time something like what I just showed you happens people get up there and they're like I swear. I am a good person said I come over and over they say I will I'm not the kind of person that's going to cheat you and then they'd do it. They stab me in the back into Grandma's policeman and here's my theory it's not that they're mean people it's that they don't want to be that guy slumped on the table they don't want to be the sucker the fear of being the sucker far overwhelms the desire to do good to their fellow contestant there's something wrong with this program. The obvious thing to do is to share you managed to wheedle your way into the approximate possession of a fortune and all you have to do is agree to split it what if you don't trust the person across the table from you what do you do if you don't want to be a sucker and you're not sure you can trust the person across the table. There's no good answer to that. But then. Eyes this Nic it is this brings us to the moment a question we ran into this guy is Nick Corrigan I work for Media Academy Cardiff based in Wales so Nick runs a not for profit in Wales and he loves game shows yes what was your 1st one when I was about 17 he was on a quiz show and I want to book Nick has since been on by his count 44 game shows this is like what he does and when he 1st encountered golden balls you know he noticed the same miserable pattern that we all know which is like the nice people get up there they say let's share and then every time they were just off to it but then Nick got an idea how did you get that idea I think I was probably. Swimming I got all my greatest ideas from the swimming when I go back to thaw actually because . I. So Nick makes it onto the show mix at the last round Welcome back to Golden Balls and he finds himself sitting across the table from a man named Ibrahim who 2 of them are a study in contrasts Nick is tall it's got really intense eyes feathered hair Ibraheem is short in bald looks kind of like a mini Telly Savalas Abraham and Nick you know face a very straightforward choice just for the host lays out the scenario that they're competing for 14000 pounds they have to decide to split or steal and now we get to the good part now keep in mind as you listen to this that almost 100 percent of the time what happens in this moment is one person looks the other and says I promise you I will choose the split ball we'll share it share together yeah that's what they say Nick takes a very different approach. I want you to trust me 100 percent I'm going to pick the steel ball so you're going to I'm the truth the steel ball you can take I want you to do split and I commerce you know I will split the money was here steal. Your. I'm going to take so you take the money and I was off the shelf Yeah I was there was all to panic in the studio because this whole idea was like I'm not going to pretend I'm not going to stay there I'll meet you on a corner after the television show you the half of it I go that's ridiculous all the research started running around going what's he doing can this be done it was panic. I promise you I'll do that if if you do still we both think I'm telling you 100. 10 and. We just both pick. I'm not going to pick I'm going to steal honestly wonder sometimes. Still no I'm honest and I'm going to tell you an honest that's one thing I'm going to steal if you do split them. Ok well I'm going to steal some going to believe in nothing. Friends coming from I. Can't work I know I'm a decent guy and I will spend the money with you but we should just know I'm going to steal this argument went on and on. The actual argument not the edited version online went for 45 minutes there was a name calling there were threads in over those 45 minutes there was an interesting shift in excess of the audience begin to turn on the audience behind were booing me which I get because as I was watching it I mean initially it seems like a really cool clever strategy but then you realize as he goes on that he's being kind of the nasty like he's not giving the other guy a choice he's actually kind of bullying him no matter what he said I was not budging from the fact and that my intransigence just go if you're it to Tim Did you ever actually like hate him or actually yes I did hate him yes yes yes I did this is a bream it was him who signed I am a market trader all work on flea markets in London he sells textiles are paid him off because you couldn't negotiate with him I was starting to him like if I give you my word that I'm going to really. Then I'm going to split I thought I'd give you my word now let me tell you what my word means Ok My father once said to me. A man who doesn't keep his word is not a man not worth nothing but wealth but no weapon. Sahiba how I'm going to steal it so you've got the choice. You are the stat was the point where I was like Nick give the guy a chance at least come on. I think. They want to wipe my money because you're an idiot for not going to do that. We could go on all night people going to get up for breakfast. I choose spittle still before they have to make their decision it seems that it caves maybe Nick warm down and he's like fine you choose steel to split hopefully you'll share the money Well I'll tell you Ok I'm done I promise you are. You cannot change a. Split. Deal. They both turn over their balls Ibrahim as we suspected Cho split art though I had no time to to you Nick. Also to split. Really soon as you mentioned he's received was. Thank you thank. The whole game he swore he was going to steal but then he ends up split do you think he was lying the whole time and always intended to share we could change his mind at the last 2nd whatever the case here's why his strategy was so brilliant shot of shocked I was taken aback when we asked Abraham like if Nick hadn't deployed that crazy strategy would you have still split because that's what you were saying to him the whole time that you're going to split it going to share the money would you still done it no no no I thought. I was always going to steal I was never gonna split never really never really I was never gonna split why why why the reason being if I split and the other guy steals I get nothing. All probably for us work wife nothing can someone what's the word embarrass me to a certain extent didn't want to be the sucker and then I asked him like What about that speech with your dad you know and so on that kind of got me my father once said to me. A man who doesn't work is not a man cannot and I cannot just jump in a backpack Yeah Mark bad. I never met him. Brought me up I mean more profit and loss. And I never ever met my father. So that you made that up. I'm afraid so you made that up yeah yeah. Never been a good boy. I think that is the real victory here like Nick got a guy who's never intending to share the money whose whole philosophy was like Don't trust anybody don't trust no one he got that guy to be good against as well and that guy thanks him for it he did calmly to certain extent but he conned me into 7 fires and paint. And Nick for his part is also grateful to have the money so he can give it to charity run the children's charity I do all the health the safety and all the fundraising because I connected in any way to your multiple periods on game shows yes it is your directly yes this it would be so surprising I feel because it's a very well Nick is doing his good works we will take a brief break be right back. Hey I'm Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich This is Radio Lab And today we have stories on confrontations faceoffs throwdowns this next story began when one of our former producers Lou Miller. Called me up and said let's just get the studio to talk you through something Ok so you just go yeah so you've been you've been so Ok honestly don't quite know we're doing I think you're going to tell me about something that you've been when you tell me about yes I wanted to quickly tell you what the idea is wall. While I truly like I'm still pretty darn confused by it Ok. Gotcha Ok so the end of it about my bike trip across the country. You say with a certain amount of sugar and I don't know I guess I just get embarrassed because it sounds like boring self-indulgent Now when I initially talked with Lulu. The she was planning to write a book about the story they're going to tell and I was really there to just help her sound out the ideas and we were going to use the recording as a transcript for her so she's doing you know we're just having a doing her a favor kind of but then when I heard the story I decided favor over. Make this a radio story because it's it's spooky and I think it also asks in its small way a really big question which is how do you do good in a world that. I feel like I went into the trip very confident about where I stood on people being really sure that inside everybody was like just another good soul you know everyone has quirks and takes that make them angry or noxious or conceited or depressed but that those takes are just kind of like a good soul trying to like claw its way yeah through the world and that strikes me is you one of your primary assumptions about the world just knowing that well well what past tense. Something changed on this trip Yeah there was a moment that. I did the bike trip with my friend Sue. As she explained it's an old friend they met in college and she says one of the 1st things she noticed about Sue was it she would say the most amazing things and for example she is Korean and she moved to the States when she was 12 speaks English perfectly no accent but every now and then she has like a language mash up that is so brilliant and she doesn't even notice it one was like I do I don't know I was just like running around and I was so crazy that I do the and I was like Oh crap that's not a word but I know exactly what you mean that's crazed and frazzled and actually that's a better word and then like you know I'm just I just want to like why is it when I get down I like to eat all this grab it I just don't understand like invented or like my dad is always worrying that I'm just always going to be took teasing around . And she meant traipsing richer v.z. Is a much better word like trippy thing is better than their old generation of like low life. Doing where trippy you think point is Lulu was drawn to sue they became great friends and part of that connection this is the key is that they were so different she's very different personality than I do whereas Lulu is kind of your classic optimist Sue She's a very grouchy I always like frustrated by people and she's really really smart social I go on the most wonderfully enjoyable rants about people so they decide to take this bike trip across the country they've actually done one before so they knew they could travel together they obviously knew they had this difference and personality in fact as they were biking in stopping all these little towns they would sort of joke about it she would always yell at me for being what she called an over engager which is like we ask for directions and then I'm like really old man now are you a farmer Oh you're a her how does affirming or oh you have and she's sitting there like she's a. The read the hows and 500 miles they go like so sort of charming they would tease one another but then they came to this moment where that difference between them stopped being charming and it got kind of dangerous basically a long story short few weeks of the trip lose front wheels busted and they roll into this town called Pittsburgh Kansas there is nobody there was like all death all it and hot but there was a bike shop so we went to the bike shop and the bike mechanic there Roger big bald guy was like well I don't have any wheels but I can build you one if you guys can stay I could build you want today and have a free tomorrow so they went off to check the mail set up camp came back early the next morning we got there and you could tell he hadn't even started. We was just hanging there where they've left it and Lou says at this point her and Sue started going in opposite directions so I registered that and I was like you know who maybe it only takes an hour to make a will and we'll have it ready by 11 you know and assume registered that and it was just like what the f. She said I'm going to talk to the sky I immediately got like hot and flushed and didn't want her to say anything Lulu rushes Sue out of the store telling Roger what will come back soon 2 hours later they return again and the bike wheel is still there not even touched. Her Sue really wanted to say something and I think we kind of had a skirmish in the back like I was like I could tell he was kind of not taking us seriously but I still was like if we continue to be nice to him what reason would he have to like sabotage us or or not follow through for just keep treating him with respect to treat us with respect and she says Sue on the other hand was like Lou Don't you see like this guy thinks we're just like these Dilla Tonto college girls he's this is some weird power thing is taking advantage of us in this like no he's not and then it's like stupid is Roger going to make a bike wheel turned into that into a test he had turned into like a test of the human spirit here a few more hours pass. Lou and Sue are sitting on this couch in the back of the store not talking to each other and and then his 2 little boys come in his 2 little boys and they were like Daddy can we go soon and he's like I gotta finish this but then we go on the ride and I remember I remember he called them sweetie and I remember that being like a point for me. Like a man who calls his little boy sweetie like that's a good person and you know a few more hours pass. And there is still sitting there on this couch now with these 2 little boys all 4 of us on this couch and they were watching Nickelodeon cartoons and in the middle the cartoons go to Lou there was a commercial for the army like a recruiting ad and she says that was the moment where Sue just. Lost it she turned to Lulu and maybe it was one sentence and maybe it was 45 minutes like I don't know but she said you know something along the lines of the way you think you are in the world like so nice to people that's a form of deceit. And then she says Sue Storm right up to Roger and I'm sitting on this couch fuming and she laid into him we're not going to make it by dark and we have to get there and this is your fault and she like demanded that one of the like younger guys that worked in his store give us a ride and he's like well this guy's got things to do and it was just this horrible thing that I was just like and on my way out after suit already walked out I tried to say something to Roger like hey I'm really sorry I just it's been a you know I try to kind of like apologize for her and for myself and he was like well tell your friend so sorry to have inconvenienced her vacation. Lou said that feeling like this guy doesn't know them just now assumes they are the spoiled college girls that just eat it or get thinking I don't get it like if we'd just been nice to the guy instead of confronting him maybe he wouldn't think that about us and it just the whole thing was awful got to Missouri and I just remember like Missouri passing in a blur of me being like I am riding with a crazy person like you feel like suddenly this difference between you guys was serious. And just walk me through a bit of a I mean why would I have to I do have to warn you this isn't the moment this is not the moment this is not the Ok so let me tell you about the moment I want to tell you that Ok really take me there Ok so I was just like finish this trip and then. We get to Damascus Virginia where the Transcontinental bike route that we were riding crosses with the Appalachian Trail So it's like in the mountains and the town put this little bay so they have tons of people coming through they put this free hostel for bikers and hikers to stay and it's unmanned no one's there it's basically just kind of like an empty house with wooden bunk beds you can lay your sleeping bag on and a kitchen so we get there and these 2 Appalachian hikers are staying there too and it's just us and them guy and a girl. All the guy she says was maybe 23 brown hair super blue eyes the other hiker she's a young girl doing it by herself and we're all talking late and we're in this like little living room area and he kind of immediately jumps into the conversation and just starts like taking it over with his life story which is that he thinks he's a prophet he has the gift of prophecy he also has the gift of extreme empathy where he can come into a room and he'll be like deafened by all the thoughts he can hear and other people . And I was kind of like All right we've got another but I know what he's saying and Sue is like rolling her eyes and then he says Oh and you know I prophesied the Virginia Tech shootings. And it's like Ok so then there's like this silence and now like 10 30 pm. And I don't know what you say in that moment I don't you know like I think like in a way make him not feel crazy for that is something somehow in that moment my instinct is like just don't rattle this guy maybe yeah and then he says. Another time I was getting off from work I was walking home from the bus really he was like worked as a chef for cooking you know in a kitchen and he was walking home from the bus has really late and he said an African-American woman came up to me dressed in really like revealing clothing and turned out she was a prostitute and she offered her services to me and I said no and then I blacked out and the next moment I came to and I had a knife around her throat Oh there's like this pause and then. I remember like my heart almost like pounding not out of nervousness but but but I couldn't let him go on this of course Sue She just starts talking him I had to correct I think that's really irresponsible he pulled out a knife he said he was gonna do something and the fact that he just so cavalierly said and I'm like staring at her clenching my teeth like what the are you doing like this is don't behave this way but don't behave this way right now with this person please no you're wrong like if he didn't want to be corrected he wouldn't have told that story she says you know I think this is a demonic possession you need to like seek counseling for culture there moment Lou says she reached down and hit record on her tape recorder figuring aright if this guy snaps we still have it on tape for the police you hear his voice in here but we've conceal his identity and he's like oh what I'm crazy because I had like influenced by other things and she said you know you never know and the word schizophrenia fell out on me this is a. Yeah I was there when I met her for a whole. Group I don't remember he was like no he's like you're calling me schizo phrenic no no so typical He would go to that and she is just like taking him to town and they are fighting and I am scared because I'm. Sure she will probably start you know and I'm like why what we're trying to get from this guy that I almost killed from what I almost killed from one period. That it was me and she was just like but why are you telling us this you come out you show us your journal you tell us this story we've known you for 3 seconds you clearly are want to be judged and so I have to judge it so you're there was a Bible which seem to be what you rely on say to respect the laws of the land and how dare you take like a life of human sacred life you know in your hands you know almost more laughable it seriously and the fact that you will confront it if you will or you almost did that and she like. I don't know I had this moment like suddenly. Who says she's not sure why but it turned. And I was like I am so like. Proud to be associated with somebody like this like I am I would never do any of that and she just like knows how to stands up for things and it turned for him to he kind of like over time slowly started backing down and even conceding I really might need help and I don't know how to get it and then she sort of softened and they were really having a conversation and this thing inside him like. A different him came out like not the weird crazy person I was just tolerantly accepting like I being a real confused person came out was talking to her you know and every else kind of dropped away and and they would go out and share the cigarette on the porch and come back with a really like arm and arm slung over each other I think when. You get to the bottom of something would from on you feel kind of kinship you know I don't know what they said out there and I all I knew in the moment was like I'm so proud of her I am so proud to be with this person like I realize that she has so much she just has so much more hope like she is just raged by anyone who doesn't like live up to their potential but they don't it's like my little theory was like Oh we're all whole just selfish and we all kind of holes but we're all you know be nice about it and and she like has this. A true hope like that actually we could actually look we're capable of better. That's the really utopian reading of such a crappy part of my personality. Seriously like you can even give me that like is there really no part of you that sees what is so good a little bit about this the reason why it's romanticizing is that it's actually it's the kind of you know it's like scratching out of something and that's what I tend to do and it's hurtful for the parties involved and it's salient getting to me right nobody wants to be a room. But the change you create on the other side I mean it's change it's like my way of being maybe feels good in the moment and it enables basis you know but it also sustains a relationship right let me ask you this Have you had issues with being cruel to friends and losing friends or something. And I'm just guessing based on where you are what you just said. Yeah yeah I think so. Sue actually said that when she got home from the bike trip her roommates at the place where she was staying confronted her we think you have an anger problem I thought I just I mean there was a big blow out fight and then I moved. To the story leaves you with some questions like if you agree that people are messed up because of course they are we all are in what's best way to heal people I mean do you decide as Lulu does or did that shit proceed the world with kindness and happiness no matter how the world treats you or. Is that kind of giving up. Like a happy hopelessness. So then do you put your foot down in a suit. And say No you were messed up don't be messed up. Sat hope you're just being mean and I. Don't know. I know I don't know I'm still confused I'm still very confused. Maybe I have it all wrong. Thank you Lou Thank you soup thank you jad thank you Big thanks to me on a market We'll be right back. Hey I'm Janet I'm Robert Krulwich This is Radio Lab And today well it's stories about confrontation throw down bass offs now we have a story about a fight that starts in the cage spills over into the human species as a whole and turns out in the end to be nested inside the brains of every single one of us and that story comes from our producer Pat Walters It all started for me with this essay that I read by this guy named Jonathan Gottschall I'm a writer and a fighter. Batman so a few years ago I'm an English teacher I'm sitting in the English department I'm sitting in the cubicle he was a teacher at a small college outside Pittsburgh and at the time Jonathan had written some articles even a couple of books I was still an adjunct lowly adjunct you know the academic equivalent of cheap migrant labor. Pretty low on the totem pole so I was sitting there in the cubicle that I share with other adjuncts kind of feeling miserable down about my job and then I catch a glimpse of movement through the window I go to the north I look out and notice is that across the street where they used to be a car parts store is new business had opened up a mixed martial arts gym this cage fighting stuff that you see on t.v. That they're like that with the kind where you can where you where anything goes like that kind or anything goes yeah punching kicking mean ground impound you can climb on top of the guy and punch him in the face and totally He goes out that stuff is just too raw Well I've been watching it guiltily and very much in the closet for about 15 years I knew it was wrong I watched in the way that most women watch porn you know my wife would walk into the room I was watching I really quickly turn the channel that out there they were huge muscle bound dude's in the picture window right across the street there in the cage each other tackling their fighting on the ground and as he watches them day after day I sort of envy them. Their bravery and the way they just seemed so alive while I was in my cube rotting until one day he decides I decided do it I'm going over there I want to try to do a brave thing did you did you tell your wife Yeah yeah what was your west reaction is almost perfect paraphrase you said you will be killed you have no skills. Yeah it kind of hurt it hurts to find out your wife has no respect for your fighting but that doesn't stop in no training sparring with other beginners and this is how it all goes down maybe I'm 4 months into my training let's say about 4 months into my training and I feel like I'm starting to get the hang of things I'm starting to feel more confident I'm doing pretty well against the other beginners and the sort of the weaker guys in the gym so. One day I go to the gym and it turns out I'm an honest bar this guy named named Nick and little concerned about it because he's been at the gym longer than me but I'm not all that concerned because he has a some selfies he's a kind of a klutz you Guy And I felt just like athletically I stacked up very well with him I was faster than him I thought to get around better and so you know we go into the cage and the bell rings and you know we go to the center of the cage and we engage in again feeling confident and then. The 100 me hard in the face and he had to me again. The punches keep comic cross-tab crossed. He doesn't Bobby doesn't weave it doesn't dance he's right there in front of you should be able to hit him but I can't. He's just hammering me finally the bell rings and I go collapse in one of the chairs in my head it is already fighting in my brain and I say to myself Well that seals it the 40 Raymond hypothesis has to be true. Before. With. The Ok so. Are these French researchers. Of the 2 French researchers who. Is a left right this conflict between lefties and righties it goes way back Oh yeah absolutely . I'm an author and journalist in Portland Oregon you're right handed right no I'm very left him. Trying to get out the. Defense you know against crime David is a defender of lefties everywhere he actually wrote this whole book called a left turn around the world because growing up as a kid in a family of right handers always felt a little different. To put it you're special and this is this is some little extra sprinkle of specialness in you luckily that they're not you know they didn't grow up in the Middle Ages and think that I was cursed by the devil and therefore I'm left handed because throughout the ages and pretty much throughout every culture left handers were evil and sinister in fact the word sinister itself is derived from the Latin word which means on the left side and in English when we say something is correct we say it's right you know in the Bible God is always doing really nice and benevolent things with the right the not so nice or benevolent things with the left hand everything left. And the presumption was that if this was not. The result of a curse. From the devil then this was the result of poor parenting or poor posture but we know now that it's genetic when you do a genetic study and you look at parents here's how it plays out if you have 2 right handed parents their chance of having a left hander. It's about 9 and half percent if you have one ready one lefty parents the odds do go up now you've got 20 percent almost 20 percent chance then 2 southpaw parents have a 26 percent chance of delivering into the world a southpaw and if you add up those chances and look out across the entire human species we are about 90 percent right handed 10 percent left handed and 90 percent of people are right handers Which brings us back to pouring rain and so forth in Raymond realize that left handedness is a sort of evolutionary mystery it's a mystery at least in part because left handedness seems to come with some disadvantages that's associate with all these negative health outcomes and I actually wrote a few of them down higher risk of schizophrenia immune deficiency epilepsy learning disability spinal deformity a.d.h. Alcoholism dyslexia psychopathy own disease it's not even a complete list so weight lefties have a higher incidence of all these things yeah significant how much higher like a t.v. Bit higher teeny bit teeny bit a bit like a really teeny bit but evolution works on tiny bits right so if there are significant health cost to being left handed Why hasn't natural selection trimmed away why do we still have lefties at all. That's the puzzle and the Korean Riemann hypothesis is that we still have lefties in the world because they have an advantage in one arena combat. Which are John of The realise in the ring with Nik You get very used to fighting right handers you get used to where the punches are coming from and then used face a left hander and they do everything backwards and you have to develop basically a whole different approach to fighting and if you go back to a time when war is one of the last largely because of hand to hand combat whether with fists or spears or clubs or whatever maybe the ancient lefties like Nick had a little edge. Maybe the survival advantage of battling left handed washed out those. Viable costs associated with being left handed READY READY. So. Came up with this prediction a prediction based on their idea that if left handed this is somehow linked to fighting prowess then wherever they go in the world they will find that the most violent societies have the highest proportion of lefties how how they define violent like over time the number of wars or were numbers of wars homicide rates that kind of thing I see so they dug up some data on violent and left handedness in 3 different tribal societies then they went out and did their own field research in 5 other groups and they find this beautiful correlation. Police violence violent society in their simple have 3 percent left handers the most violent societies in their simple problem societies in New Guinea that were Tory Asli violent had rates of left handedness about $25.00 or 30 percent. Or yeah it was a street proud of them as many lefties and yes as yeah. Wow be true case closed. No. 'd here's the thing that tribe from Papa New Guinea that had 3 times many lefties as you would expect that was data that they looked up in the library but when some other scientists actually went in the field and checked it they found no evidence that lefties were over represented in the stripe it wasn't heavily lefty according to this study they just didn't find any evidence that lefties were over represented I'm disappointed because this is a very cool idea I was disappointed but I think we can salvage it. The original Jonathan had an idea the phone after Nick knocked him out he thought maybe looking at real battles real violence maybe that was where they were went wrong maybe lefty genes are maintained more through success in the play fights of sports then an actual no holds barred violence maybe it's about sports not war in fact actually lefties have long been known for doing better at the at all kinds of different sports tennis boxing baseball we look at the Northwestern study Chad which found that 50 percent of the top players in baseball at its highest R.B.I.'s best pitchers 50 percent are left and you see that same over representation of lefties in any sport that's got a one on one component you know a faceoff the only scientific question you need to ask is Do athletes have more children. Oh wait a 2nd so you're saying all those lefty pitchers that are really good and that screw up the right handed hitters maybe they're having so many kids Yeah and that's what keeps that 10 percent 10 percent well sort of yeah so we can check this we can of Lefty Gomez New York Giant lefthander has 16 children. So people so people have actually looked into this you know they've looked into it to do athletes do better with the ladies and the evidence is pretty strong that they do really want to how do you do after you have high school and college oh yeah. You don't need a scientist tell you that and so you have to count your babies count the babies are you counting the baby early or you can or you count the reproductive opportunities we mean like how many dates they go on yeah exactly how many sex partners they have why not count the babies you know want to count the baby well because we live in an era of birth control now and so it's in the environments in which these traits evolved there was there were no reliable means of birth control so we use reproductive opportunities as a proxy for reproductive success and then Ok it's starting to make sense to me now . How could I lovingly say that sounds like total garbage. You think David would love this idea he's the lover of lefties but no it's just there's too much biology at play here and too much ancient prehistoric biology at play for this to matter as much as your dear English professor friend wants it to matter but here's here's the thing whether or not this is been proven scientifically. Personally I know it's true. I know it's true because I experienced I know it's true in a way that statistics can't touch you know I know it's true of being in that cage having the undoubtable truth just pounded into my brain literally and my friend you know I know it's true. I mean it's so fun these kind of things are so fun because it's so easy right I mean who doesn't love an easy answer but it seems so farfetched and maybe that makes me a little bit of a wet blanket but after this year plus investigating this topic David says about halfway through writing his book this whole handedness puzzle kind of flipped for him to do worrying about why lefties have stuck around he started to wonder about that $9010.00 member but why in humans do lefties only make up 10 percent of the population when in pretty much every other creature on earth this asymmetry is random in other words it's a coin flip whether a monkey in South America is going to be left or right handed several studies have shown that it's about $5050.00 in cats see Mr For dogs people looked at mice toads various kinds of birds and all of them have a pretty even split it looks like what is unique to humanity is the $910.00 So how did we end up at $910.00 well one of the strongest theories for the origins of handedness hooks. On to left hemisphere dominance for speech the idea says David is that humans are way back in the days when these would be like early humans pre-human ancestors were 50 fiftieth's that is they were 50 percent ready they were 50 percent left like all the other animals in the forest so . The things that our brains were doing back then were also even on both sides so the motor cortex of the left controlled the right hand as it still does the motor control of the right controls the left hand as it still does but then at some point in our evolutionary history language begins to develop and there was this shift in brain organization the part of the brain that controlled speech I don't know why this happened but it began to move over to the left side of our brain according to one theory that shift ended up making the left side of our brains better at motor control because think about what speech is I'm going to say let's pick a pair of pickled peppers my tongue my lips my teeth are all in a medley of complex motion there and that is all about motor control so the left side of my brain is doing that and it's getting bigger and stronger as the species gets more and more speech he gets more and more left brain or right you're saying that a speech grows on our left side the motor cortex grows on our left side and the left motor cortex controls the right hand. The end result is a bias to the right yes but weirdly somewhere deep in our d.n.a. Still is a this gene that confers the chance to become left handed and which results in about 10 percent the population being lefties but they're not twiddling though they just seem to stick their well they don't seem to be dwindling in the in the blink of an eye that is we're not time we've been looking to interlink. You don't even live. Or whatever maybe there is just you know you're just still around because you're like a vestige of what we used to be thank you thank you I'll call my as soon as my kids are all then have to tell them that dad is a vestige which sort of brought us back to our original question like why aren't lefties doing away and when we pushed David here's what he finally said I would I. Because I'm a lefty and a strong left hander so you know take many many grains of salt you're arguing from pride we understand of course no i.o.l. Pride and a little bit of research but I would argue that a splash of diversity within the brain as far as brain organization has had a cumulative beneficial effect for our species now if you How exactly does it mean because if conditions on earth should change radically nature just likes to have a little variety in the in the gene pool so if everyone's doing really well with one set of genes and situation changes drastically They want everybody to get sick and die so variety there is such a slightly heightened chance of survival I think it's a subtle advantage to the population but I think I think there's a beauty to it nevertheless lefties are coming at the world from a slightly different angle but this puts David didn't kind of a weird spot because even if lefties don't win the way if sports or brain diversity or some other random reason keeps them around they'll always be the few you know as I said in the book I don't think this is cause for the next March on Washington but but lefties are their own special minority group unless. You are the parrot. This is. Somehow I knew you guys would go for the parrot as it turns out parrots seem to be I think it's 90 percent left handed her left footed left talent whatever to call it robbery I went to visit this artist named Sloan and rescues and a lot of parents talked to. Him tested the lesson of his birth they told us that the 1st the day before as he put a piece of on the table or on the platform and whichever foot they pick it up is their preferred foot. Walk up to. This is. How I greet the parrot when we give you a potato chip present with our treatment and then we wait to see what it did. To have to another cage did the same thing and I left left left for another left and in the end that the final count was final tally was 99. 9 left to right and one went both ways that is close to 90 percent close to yes so if it was a terrorist. Right at home why do you suppose parents are 9 to 10 and the other way I have no I don't think anybody knows. 1 or on the other hand. He can. After. Which he. May have. A very close we have little sad news our producer at Walter's care alters will be moving on moving to the left coast after the show if you listen to this show over the last few years you've heard all kinds of wonderfully strange and diverse tales Yeah they're taken Pat to all kinds of different places and put him in all kinds of different needs and you hate to lose a radio you know. So definitely definitely we love you we wish you the very very best out there. 2 for. And tell me help one area and. Now. Thing I don't think I think Sam Bryant. Gave. Her money. And it's message and of the same time next week Radiolab will travel from a voting booth in Brussels to the driver's seat of a runaway car in the Carolinas exploring the massive effects tiny bits of stardust can have on unwitting humans the broadcasting legend David Letterman began his career as an announcer that's an excellent choice in my opinion and as we'll hear in the next edition of Alec Baldwin's Podcast Series here's the thing Letterman's early days in radio were a long way from the superstardom he went on to enjoy it was it Watergate and people assume well the guy's got a talk show on the radio but he knows everything there is to know about Watergate and I knew nothing I'd have to read endless pages of wire copy I remember reading a story about Gordon Strachan s t r a c h a n And his name kept coming up a special counsel saw Gordon Strachan advisor of the way down scored the stretch and finally the forms lined up with thank God did I say yes it's not Strachan it's stron you're mispronouncing the guy's name I said Ok thanks he ever know click but so there you go David Letterman this week's guest and here's the thing with Alec Baldwin who will also be talking to the Hollywood star Michael Douglas That's on Thursday morning at 11 and again in the evening at 9. Now the rounds to be in May. Say a scheme of a Super Kings unveils the funniest show and tell the table spiders shade their external skeleton it's like rock so it's not a. Table celebrating the natural world I suppose it's fair to say they are.