For crimes against humanity. We are breaking the cycle of impunity. The court however is not without its critics, including those who allege it has an antiafrican bias. Most of the massive atrocities are committed in the, in the arab countries or in african countries. The United States has not signed up to participate in icc and the argentine lawyer says there is a reason for that. They are against independent justice. The court is here to stay however, but the iccs permanence was not always a guarantee. Six, empty floors. laughter . Two employees. Everyones thinking it would be closed. During argentinas transition to democracy, morenoocampo served as the deputy prosecutor against members of the military government who had ruled the country. I never could convince my mother of what happened in my country. But then when the trial start and my mother start to listen to witness. She call me and say, i still love general videla. But you are right. He has to go to jail. I spoke to luis morenoocampo in new york, where he is now in private practice. He had just returned from iraq where he was doing brobono work investigating crimes committed by isil against the countrys yazidi minority. Youve just recently returned from iraq. The yazidis have, have appealed to the icc. They wanted the icc to do something about the genocide that they say that is happening to them because of isil. What can the icc do . That for me interesting, no . Because, if you are a victim of, this type of crimes, you are in iraq. But isis who have no, no one can control them, is attacking you. Where you go . Iraq cannot do it. So who else will protect you . So people keep moving, asking icc to intervene. And the problem was, iraq is not a state party. So the territorys not under the jurisdiction of International Criminal court. Because what they had to prove to open a case at the icc is that member of isis are nationals from third parties. And then, we collect, they collect the information showing that theyre 2,000 tunisians, 1,500 jordanians, and more than 2,000 europeans leading isil. So now they, the yazidis, n. G. O. S and the unintel government two weeks ago, they went to the hague and they present a communication to the prosecutor asking her to start to work in the genocide case. And do you think the yazidis will get some sort of justice . Yes, i think thats a big first step. There we can help more. For instance, iraq, iraq does not like to be a member icc because there are still many conflict there and theyre afraid. But iraq can make a decision very limited. Iraq baghdad can decide just go accept jurisdiction for sinjar mountains. Just since august 2014. So that meaning just the area where the genocide was committed. And that will allow icc to intervene by different way. Sometimes is it just a matter of there being the political will to do it . Totally. Not just sometime, sometimes. Always. All the time. All the time. Political will is now the next phase. Because when, in 1945, oh, oh, look. When the armenian were slaughter, even the word genocide didnt exist. When the germans killed everyone during the second world war, there was no law. The, the Genocide Convention was adopted in 1948. And , we need another 50 years to have a court implementing it. Now the next step is, okay, we have a law, court decision. But because there is no global police, we need to invent a different way to participate in this. And thats the next phase. Just a couple years ago, about syria, this is what you said, the Global Community is divided on the solution to the problem. There may be an efficient and collective solution. Those in syria who ordered the crimes should be prosecuted. The International Criminal court is ready to provide the independent judiciary required. It could be effective. And, and look at all that has happened just in the two years since you said that. Is there a role that the International Court has in what is happening in syria . But the syria is a good example of what you say before. Political agreement is, is a condition. And, in fact, yes, russia veto a resolution on syria. But before that, u. S. Was not interested at all to, to, to send the case to the icc they did it just at the end to shame russia, but not at the beginning. Us was proposing, you remember, striking because of chemical weapons. And that will be a wrong, also, policy. Because its not about just killing people with chemical weapon. laugh you cannot kill people. So, yes, we lost opportunities. But that, that why i believe yazidis genocide case is a good chance to unite the world. But are there war crimes that are happening in syria that need to be addressed . Of course. Yes. How to do it is a different matter. Because, youre focusing now, the problem is even petraeus is proposing to support al qaeda to fight isil now. Its, its insane. If you focus on, in the genocide committed against yazidis by isis, then you can stop isis and then you can find a political solution and a justice solution for the previous crimes. So justice is not just putting people in the dark. So we can have other measures. But yes, we need to develop new approach to these problems. The us specifically who is not, is not part of the, the icc, how, how much of a challenge, of, is that . Or is not a challenge . Or what does that say about the us . We won the challenge. We won the challenge. When i request indictment against president bashir, my biggest supporter was president bush. He say, okay, i dont like the court for much but president bashir had to be accountable. So president bashir ended his term, hundred percent support in the court. Even moving china. Then president obama came, start a sea change. And then china remain quiet because that its strategy. China, chinas very clear. Its not against justice. China believe stability protect people. Well, the us would say that theyre not against justice, either. They are against independent justice. Thats the problem. Us like justice when, when Security Council or us decide where to go. They dont like independent procedure to deciding to open investigation without their consent. Do you think itll change . With time, i hope before everyone is killed in this country, in this world. laugh yeah, i hope will change. Yeah. But depend on us. Depend on people. Its changing. Its changing. The funny thing, when you see surveys about icc, theres global support. Even in china. So everywhere. But the political leader have to adjust. The problem is, u. S. Is the Biggest Country in the world. They dont like some, something checking them. laughter thats it. This awful thing that has happened in kunduz with the hospital, the Doctors Without Borders hospital being bombed. Is that a war crime . Look, i believe that will depend on the facts. The case is showing how wrong is the policy. Its not our, its not that this is illegal. Its wrong. Bombing people is wrong. Youre not gaining them. This conflict with talibans or al qaeda or, or isis are not about, two countries fighting. Its about ideas. Look whats happened after all those ca, people from the us. From london are going to join isis to fight because they leave their cause. So you, so, you, you cannot kill all of them. So you have to respect them. That why its a difference. The law makes your enemy a criminal. Because in the us, which is the Biggest Country in the world, International Relations about us interest. And they see the other foreigners enemies. President obama is saying inside the us were just spying foreigners. I never for, people here say, oh, its fine. Fine. Foreigners, no problem. Come on, were foreigners. Im a foreigner. laugh so dont, dont spy me. So there are 6. 5 billion foreigners, in fact. Majority of the world are foreigners for us. So they should think differently. The us is obviously not part of the icc but are there actions that the u. S. Can be still held accountable for . Whether its the torture report, things that have happened in guantanamo. Is there anything that you see that the u. S. Should be held accountable for . No, i see wha, i would sugge, president obama decide not to investigate tortures. So the only institution who can review that decision is icc for event, alleged crimes committed in afghanistan. The rest is, the rest i would say no. What happened in iraq or what happened in guantanamo, its just us. No one else has jurisdiction. So theres no follow up to that. For that, no, there are no, there are no institution for that. The only possible case is what happened afghanistan. And eventually, clears throat there are some agreements in poland, in some country who accepted to torture people. That is also, and poland and these countries are members of icc thats why we are still in a wrong, okay, that was a wrong poi, if, not, not, not just wrong. A legal poli, illegal policy. Using drones has increased markedly under president obama. Often killing innocent people. Okay, legally, again, the only possibilities whats happened afghanistan. The only country where icc would have jurisdiction. But there would be some legal debates. But i think the important debate is, in pakistan. No place else at all . Pakistan is not a party. No. But the important debate for me not just what happened investigating crime. Its changing the the policy. And that debate should be here in the us. No, with the american people. So that would take americans saying, yes, the american have to, look, at the beginning of the 20th century, Theodore Roosevelt received the nobel prize, the peace nobel prize because he was mitigating the conflict between, japan and, and russia. And his, his speech, he say, the only way to establish peace in the world is to create a confederation of states. With independent court helping the world to stay in peace as the Supreme Court in the us help us, help the states to be in peace. So see, roosevelt was posing that at the beginning, at the beginning of the 20th century. But now were talking about it differently. A hundred year after roosevelt when president obama receive nobel prize, he was not talking about the confederation more. laugh he was talking about hes the commander in chief of one, of one country. And that different game. So i think we have to go back to Theodore Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt language. I think that, he, he saw it. The president in those days, u. S. Was not still the biggest power in the world. Now its tempting because us the hegemony unintel phrase power. And the temptation is to impose their will everywhere. But that is not working. Would not work. Still ahead on the program Moreno Ocampo talks about Palestinian Statehood and acusations that the court focuses too much on africa. Youre watching talk to al jazeera. Im richelle carey. My guest this week is the first prosecutor of the International Criminal court, luis mareno ocampo. Do you support Palestinian Statehood . Oh, i, i was a prosecutor in, in a case where palestine came to my office requesting jurisdiction. And, was very interesting because the minister of jus, was in 2009. And the minister of justice of palestine explained to me. Look, it was so difficult to come here. First, i had to convince the palestinian authorities. Then they told me, okay. But you can go to the icc if arab league support you. So he told me, it was so difficult to discuss with bashir on the table the age of palestine at the arab league. But they did it. They accept it. So im here after all this complicated process. I told him, okay. Minister, i understand how much you work it. But however, i cannot promise you success. I can promise you impartiality and respect for the law. And talking about the law, theres a problem here because the law say a state can accept jurisdiction. And its not clear that youre a state. Still believe that i have no authority to decide youre a state. You should go to the General Assembly. They did it after i left. And General Assembly voted theyre a state. Not member of the u. N. But a state. And as a consequence now, they are member of icc. So this was moving in five years. How much it could solve the issue, i dont know. What do you think it means that the icc has jurisdiction now . For the future, everyone knows that if you commit crimes there, you can be investigated and prosecuted by the iccthat make a different game. And, and for me, you should not construct the membership of icc as attacking, as an aggression against israel. Its, its a commitment of the Palestinian People not to commit crimes. But we need, we need to take the opportunity. Israel, as a consequence of that, is conducting much more investigation and, and is much more careful. Thats a good sign. But we need to do it both sides. Why the need for the International Criminal court, as you see it . No, because thats the first time its, nuremberg permanent. Nuremberg, yugoslavia, unintel phrase for the past. Icc for the future and permanent. It completely different game. And you dont, until icc, until nuremberg, International Relation were relation between states. Inside a state, a sovereign could kill whoever he wanted. And, and now this change it. Started to change with nuremberg but now its a hu, its a sea change because icc is now joined by 123 states. So and the Security Council refer in situation like libya and darfur. So its moving. Its, its were doing the global revolution in legal terms. What were the early days like . Early days . Yeah, early days. When i start . Yes. Six, six empty floors, two employees. Everyones thinking it would be closed. Thinking it wouldnt last. No, everyone was thinking it would be closed. Yeah, i would do nothing. In, in those days, i was at harvard teaching. And one colleague of mine told me, advised me not to take the job. Said, look, luis, its great honor. But you have to reject it. Say, why . Because you will be nine years at the hague doing nothing and receiving a salary. Because the laugh american, without the americans, you cannot investigate. You cannot arrest. You can do nothing. So for me, it was a good advice. Because i said, okay, i will do it in my own way with no americans. So and we move it. We move the court. The court now is up and running. We have people in jail. This year, they are integrating a new building, 400 Million Building at the hague. So the court is there. So thats feel, well, the, like relax now because i took something that could disappear in one year and now its an institution. How relevant will be, thats the next game. Why did you take the job . How you cannot take the job . laughter come on. No. Why did you, no. For me, the best job in the world. Nothing is better than that. I mean, its a great mission. My job was, they, they were paying me to help people. To use the law to control power. To assist those who no one cares. So were very proud of what we did. So we connect with the people more abandon in the world. And then we help them to transform the information to evidence. So we are breaking the cycle of impunity. And working for people. What else . Okay. The court, the court really doesnt have any enforcement mechanisms. How much of a challenge is that for the court . Has that been, that unintel phrase think would be possible. But you know, we arrested many, many people. Tell me about the, the successes of the court, as you see them. No, the first is, its existing. And its working. And for in the, the best, the best case i did is the case i never opened. The best case for me is colombia. Because in colombia, there were massive crime committed. But colombia was doing themselves. Colombia w, itself did trials. And i went to colombia many times, talked to the president of colombia, the previous president. Say, look, you investigating the guerillas but not the army. You should be investigating the army, too. So he unintel investigation of the army. So they were doing everything. Now colombia is negotiating with the guerillas. Everyone was understanding the game. And now theyre making agreement respecting the rules. Its a new 21st century situation. There are, of course, successes in africa. But what do you say to critics who say that africa has been unfairly targeted by the icc . That is bashir comment. That bashir campaign. And hes unintel phrase . No, its not only bashir. No. All of you repeat it laugh at the point. Yeah, thats the point. When, when i indict president bashir, i remember some of them saying, oh, its against africa. And everyone would say, no, its a genocide. Six year later, no one is talking about darfur genocide. And people repeat this alibi. Based on former colonial past. But we dont like it. White people killing people in africa. But with, neither like black people killing ke, people in africa. But bashir in particular, when he was committing the genocide in darfur, his troops were saying, were going to kill you black people, negroes. That what he was saying. And he pretend hes the victim of a colonial court. Come on. Thats, yeah, its funny. And by the journalists in, in, outside repeat the story. Because its easy. Its, its, its on top of their prejudice. Its wrong. Okay. So let me put it to you this way. Do you feel that the the icc has been evenhanded in their prosecution . Yeah, because the rules are for instance, colombia is the case that could be similar. Because i cannot investigate us because us not a party. I cannot be in nepal. I cou, so the icc couldnt, was, its not possible to go to some place. Youre fa, so youre saying in some cases you are limited by what countries are part of, exactly. Thats one of the limitations. And second, most of the massive atrocities are committed in the, in the arab countries or in african countries. Except tunisia and jordan, no other countrys a member. So the court has jurisdiction. Then you have massive atrocities in colombia. But colombia, as i mentioned, they are conducting national proceedings. And as such, when they are conducting national proceedings, icc should respect it. Should not go. So that means the remaining area is africa. And im workin for african victims. I dont care african leaders. I care about african victims. Because uganda, congo, refer their own case. Not against others. The ivory coast request intervention, too. And the only application that Security Council referred two situation, libya and darfur. But the, i dont think theyre trying to blame other country. Theyre just trying to do something that when they have no idea what to do, to stop massive atrocities. How do you remain impartial with so many of these cases that you dealt with when theres, theres often clearly a right and a wrong. How do you approach some of these cases . Because i had to investigate the crimes and i had to respect the law. That, for me, was very helpful. Because im not taking sides. You said respect the law. Yeah, thats it. That was for me the beauty of my position. I could be tough but also firm and respectful. Coming up on talk to al jazeera. Ocampo reflects on his early fights for justice against the junta in argentina. Underway after myanmars first election in 25 years and not everyone was allowed to vote. Hello you are watching al jazeera live from london, also coming up, two stabbings and a vehicle attack leave one dead and six injured in another day of violence in the west bank. Gunmen killed nine people in a bar in burundi hours before the government had house to house searches for weapons plus russia mb