Efficacious of the loft cause. Could that time be ending now. The embattled flag at 150 years old its inside story. [ ] welcome to inside story. Im ray suarez. A curious thing happened after a killer walked into a bible study at an Historic Black Church in South Carolina and killed nine people there. Along with proclamations and arguments about racism and gun control game a backlash against a symbol carried by dylann roof, the confederate battle flak, with a blue st. Andrews cross on a battlefield with 13 stars was not folded and put away. It was carried by confederate veterans, Knight Riders terrorizing free men, counterdemonstrators part of the resistance to integration as jim crow laws were defeated. Its flown in defines, and pop culture, used in ways maligned and begin nine benign. Del walters looks at the battle. Reporter what we know is the Confederate Flag was not the original flag. That was inspired by the United States flag. The one we see flying next to the carolina state capital is derived from the confederate battle flag, and defenders say it represents southern heritage. Opponents see it as a symbol of White Supremacy and slavery. After the south surrender in 1865 Confederate Flags were destroyed or moth balled, but not forgotten. They were revived as a political symbol when diplomats pressed south. Date. When president harry truman desegregated the armed forces in 1948 and supported antilynching views, southern democrats aring or descension. Richard russell his supporters paraded around the arena waving the flag. When dixie crats nominated their president sales exploded and it was the symbol of segregation. In South Carolina, the Confederate Flag received new prominence in 1962 when it was raised over the state house in an act of defiance over the civil rights movement. Not everyone in South Carolina is still living in the 18th acceptedury. Reporter four years later, South Carolina legislators reached a compromise. The flag was moved from the top of the state house to the south side of the complex, next to a monument to confeder u soldiers. Georgias flag incorporated the confederate cross but was redesigned. Mississippis plastic bag contains the confederate scprorks voters decided 2 1 to keep the emblem as part of the flag embattled flag this time on the programme we are joined by bertram hays davis, president of the bovoer foundation, dedicated to the preservation of jeffersons southern culture, a great grandson of the president of the United States, and reverend nelson rivers, past or of Charity Missionary Baptist church in South Carolina. Reverend, were you surprised that each before the victims were buried, people were arguing about the flag . Well, it was more like shock. At the tide, that turned to quickly of public elect officials, the governor, nikki haley, members of the senate and the house in South Carolina, the mayor of north charleston, the mayor of charleston, major riley was a supporter of bringing the flag down. The Vice President , reverend sharpton and i met and talked about where we were, it didnt seem possible that we would move so quickly, i hasten to say it should not have tape the lives of reverend clementa pinckney, a member of the senate. And another eight people, most of whom i knew and had Close Relationships with several of them, and to thing they had to die to make this happen will be bittersweet for us, it means South Carolina, for 15 years had a chance to do what they say publicly now that they wouldnt before, that it represents slavery, racism, denigration of a people and trees job, thats what it represents, and no glossing over it changes that. We knew that 15 years ago when we tubing it off the capital. We should have put it in a museum where it belongs, where all the relics of bygone hatred should be placed. Were you surprised that 48, 72 hours after the terrible crime people were once again arguing about the flag . Not at all. I think the flag the battle flag has, echoing the remarks of the reverend betrayed assistance, by those that chose to take the flag to places it was never meant to be and recognised something long past forgotten. To see anyone say we are there or that it is meaning. Its an historic bat the flag shown in battle, but it should be preserved in historic place, not on public display with organizations or groups. Lets expand on what you said. What happened after the war was over, when there was confederates and ageing confed rahsies, was the use of the flag changed, distorted as a piece of symbolism. Was it taken outs of its original context in your view . I believe it was. I think that ramped itself up. My great greatgrandfather realized after the war that the confederates states of america was behind us. The unification of the country was important than the allegiance was. It is historic in reference to what it stood for. It is the only function ability that it should have. Youll see the flag in all kinds of context, in all kinds of places. When you drive on the roads and see it. What does it say to you now in 2015. It says that an fern american, whoever is driving, hates black people. It may not be what they thing they are saying, thats the message i receive. As he said powerfully. A good friend of mine, esteemed leader told us about two years ago when they celebrated or observed the start of the war. He said anyone that tells you that the flag has value that they talk about, didnt have relatives, and no idea of the kind of cornage that the war involved. And his grandfather was a confederate veteran and his grandfather did not want to fly the flag. He said things that i saw and know, that happened in the war, should never have been done. And dont want to repeat it. When you lard the flag and say its a great thing. You are ms informed. Those fighting under it said lets get rid of it, its behind us, we should have one nation, one nation under guard. A lot of people use it as a symbol of defines. Think about it. Every time something drastic or sad happens, in the south against africanamerican americans, one of the first symbols that come out is the flag. We are not obdues, we understand what it means, its been told to us, we grew up with it, we understand what it means, now, because of the death that happened, historic and horrific event at mother emanuel church, finally they are doing what should have been done. Stay with us, perhaps at sol point in the past couple of weeks, you have been surprised at how rapidly people withdraw their support. Are we inching close toing saying hard things to each other about what it means or meant. With we finding a different place for the emblem. Embattled flag is the these people have decided that today they will be arrested. I know that im being surveilled. People are not getting the care that they need. This is a crime against humanity. Hands up. Dont shoot. Hands up. Dont shoot. What do we want . Justice. When do we want it . Now. Explosions going on. Were not quite sure is that an i. E. D. . Faultlines. Al jazeera americas awardwinning investigative series. Monday, 10 00 eastern. On al jazeera america. Inside story. Ja youre watching inside story, im ray suarez, as we consider the revived debate, argument, reassess reassessment of the use and abuse of the Confederate Flag, my guests are with me. We know that the art has not ended with the flag. People are looking at monuments, forts named for confederate generals, halls across the south on college campuses. Where does this end. Is there a place for preserving that confederate history, that doesnt necessarily celebrate or idolize it, but makes sure we dont forget it. I think you hit the point where it should be. We have political sworn 27 march going to the extremes of eliminating everything to the historical part of it. In this reference we have to understand that the people represented by the fort names or lee or davis my have more history to them this we portray in reference to their lives, my art about davis is this is 5 of his life, he didnt want the job and took the presidency. When we look at people in reference to monuments and statues, lets make sure we understand the presence that it commemorates, and daviss reference, you look at the United States capital of which america does not understand that davis had an impacts on the building to be as magnificent as t because he was an american patriot. Your greatgrandfather is memorialized in a place like stone moupt an, and georgia is home to many africanamerican americans. People are moving from other places in the country back to the south. When they look at stone mountain, do they see the same thing you do . If we educate america about the historical people, yes, they will. If they read one line in the history book or leave a story told of them, no, they wont. The secret or success will be as we educate america about the fine points, so theres an decision. Reverend rivers, how about you, when you take a roadtrip through the south and you see the monument, parks, places of honour across your part of the country named for the men, do you want them all removed. No, it takes up energy i dont have time for. I fought to have the Confederate Flag taken doing since 1979. I was a part of when we tried to remove it from the dome. We fought against the compromise, we didnt approach and were not involved. When i move across the country im a lay historian , i do no more about history than a lot of people. I do take it in context. The challenge i have, theres a reason why people have it. It represents subdue gags, trying to stay that White Supremacy is the law of the time, because the creator William Thompson believed. I think we waste a lot of energy going after every confederate monument, because the mindset is our problem . South carolina we dont have expansion, we should. The right to vote has been attacked. We stand up against that. The criminal Justice System is unfair and racist. Those are the things we are fighting to overcome, and to change and part of the problem is the Confederate Flag keeping it, the mindset, up until die, is the same. If you understood the message, youd have to have nine people die, youd never put it up. You would have taken it down by now. To go from city to city, county to country, back when i bet him. I understood that. I did my history and research. Im not going to spend time down. Let me get a quick word from Bertram Hayes davis. Right now in birmingham, they are talking about taking down a monument, moving it to a privately owned park. Is that an appropriate way to handle it, quickly before we go. Everyone has make a decision, as long as they understand the reasoning of what the mon awement stands for. If it is offensive to individuals or the public, it needs to be moved, i condone that, that is a good idea. I dont see the destruction as a solution, if it detracts from the reconciliation of the country, suredly we must have a solution working for all of us. I want to thank my guests. Have you read or heard the heated back and forth over the symbols of Civil War History and remembrance and thought i didnt know that. Kenneth davis author of, dont know much about civil war, joins me after the break. Stay with us, its inside story. As greece plunges deeper into financial crisis. Greeces choice, a bad deal. And no deal. World markets react. Its a grim picture. The consequences could be catastrophic. For continuing global coverage, stay with al jazeera america. Welcome back to inside story, im ray suarez. Weve been talking about the way different americans see a shared history. Kenneth davis has been a successful teacher and debunker of historical miths. His dont know much about history books walk readers through history to a better understanding of how we got to today. Welcome to the programme. Battle flag much between the end of the war and the premier of birth of a nation 50 years later. Ray, first of all, thank you for having me, this is an important subject and is interesting to here the conversation about this flag, its been buried and mitted, legend and myth and legend and half truth and lies. Its been very productive to have a conversation about what this means. Certainly the Confederate Flag as we know it, the one thats been discussed, is not the flag orreor the confederate states. It was too much like the american flag. The second one they came up with was a flag with a white field on it, many thinking it looked like a flag of surrender. Theres a history behind this battle flag that we are debating. How come the battle flag emerged as a symbol for white remembrance, instead of one of National Flags . Well, it was a flag that roberts troops flue in northern virgin which was the central core army in the battle for the civil war, in virgin and in the last year of lee versus grant. A grinding war costing lives on both sides. The other point that is important to make, on the eve of the 4 july is that this slavery issue was not something part of the civil war. This is part of american history. We cant talk about our history, without going back and looking at the strands of slavery, house its boefen into our history. Five of the first seven president s were slave holders, it was written into the constitution and gave the states a tremendous power. That is what they did not want to give up. That is why its important to underwhen we talk about the confederacy, we talk about a group wanting to defend one thing, the right to scope slaves and taking them further west. We get all sort of involvement in tradition and history. Thats what the war was about. The Vice President of the confederacy, a man named Alexander Stephenson said slavery was the cornerstone of the confederacy. Without understanding the fundamental idea, the flag was not an important symbol until into the middle of the 20th century when segregation was defended in the aftermath of the brown decision, when georgia adopt the flag we have to understand the history, and not get too bogged down in feelgood legends that many may have grown up believing. A cornerstone the lost cause idea of civil war, was the war was not fought over slavery, but over states rights. That is nonsense, we have to get rid of the idea. The easiest way to do that. Historians like to look at primary documents, and the document of succession in South Carolina or georgia, in texas, it was explicit that they fought over slavery what they saw as an attack and assault. Their institution which they believed was written into the constitution as it was. The three fifth compromise giving the states a power in congress and the Electoral College goodnight white voting population. That meant five of the first seven president s were slave holders, and most were sympathetic to the slaveholding south. This is what slave holding was all about. Are we at a watershed moment. Can we have a rational ideas. We are at a watershed moment. Is the conversation rational, it is a little bit. We need a tragedy to bring us to the conversation. We need to move away from the roamantize of gone with the wind, and people realized what confederalism was, a system designed to protect slavery, thats how we should see it. Thank you for joining us on inside story. In a moment ill be back with some final words on war, confederacy, its the inside story, stay with us. When he was writing his memoirs after his presidency, Ulysses Grant looked back and called the confederation of the presidency one of the worst causes men fought. Yes, its true, only a minority of confederate soldiers owned slaves, but by marching off to war to fight for the state, they were fighting to preserve White Supremacy. The leaders of the confederacy knew it and said so, the men that drafted the agreements knew it. And built if into the founding documents. We softsoaped and softfocused and played fast and loose with history. Americans seem to want our history neat and simply and uplifting. If you say it was a fight for states rights, rather than a fight to defend White Supremacy, states rites to do what, exactly. The defence of the battle flag settles around ancestors. What is left unasked is whether honourable man can go off to war to fight for a dishonorable cows. Cows. Cause. And symbols can change, its hard to thing of an american symbol that is been more disused in the last century and a half. Thats inside story, join us next time, im ray suarez. Announcer this is al jazeera. Welcome to the news hour from al jazeeras headquarters in doha, im sammy and coming up, in the show boko haram kill more than 100 people in attacks in northeast nigeria, yes or no, huge rallies expected in the greek capitol ahead of a crucial vote on a bailout deal. Chinas left behind children and we report from one village where abandon children have committed
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