Committee the countrys intelligence chief, James Clapper, made his first public acknowledgement that his agency in his view doesnt need a court order to get Location Information from cell phones. He defended the widespread collection of data and its continued usefulness and called on Edward Snowden to give back what he took last year. Little by little americans are learning more about what their government has been up to around the world, and at home. Flapper had plenty to say about the value of what was taken and the man who took it. What i do want to speak to, as a nation Senior Intelligence offer, is the profound damage that his disclosures continue that us ca. The director of National IntelligenceJames Clapper appeared before the senate yesterday. What snowden has stolen and exposed has gone way way beyond his professed concerns. As a result, we have lost foreign sources including some shared with us by valued partners. In blistering testimony, he told the committee the snowden leaks pose a greater threat to National Security than terrorists. It is evidence to me that most of the documents stolen by mr. Snowden have nothing to do with the privatesy rights and Civil Liberties of american citizens. Or even the nsa collection program. It is hard to verify the claims but it is clear the view from the intelligence agencies and the administration they serve, is that snowden harmed the country. The former contractor reportedly took nearly 2 million documents from the agency, it is the largest theft of classified information in u. S. History. Since last summer, details of one program after another have surfaced by journalists snowden has given documents. Only a fraction of what he has is believed disclosed. So the director of National Intelligence in speaking to the committee seemed to offer snowden a message. Snowden claimed that he has won and his mission is accomplished if that is so i call on him and his accomplices to facilitate the return of the remaining stolen documents that have not yet been exposed to prevent even more damage to u. S. Security. Condemned as a traitor by some, and applauded by others as a patriot who exposed the governments wrongdoing, however you look at it he has had an impact. I am not going to dwell on mr. Snowdens actions or motivations. Earlier this month the president announced some changes, but he didnt halt the controversial phone Data Collection program the agency uses to track terror threats abroad and in the u. S. We cannot prevent terrorist attacks without some capability to penetrate digital communications. The Obama Administration is charged seven whistle blowers under the act, more than all previous president s combined. And last summer, a military judge sentenced former Army Private Chelsea Manning to 35 years in prison, for stealing and sharing some 750,000 class fied diplomatic cables and field reports with wickky leaks. The legal case surrounding Edward Snowden is considerably americaier. In fact, only months before the disclosures began, president obama signed into law the whistle blower protection enhancement act. A law preventing employer retaliation or other actions against an employee who reveals corruption, or malfeasance within a government agency. That law excludes intelligence agencies like the nsa. Edward snowden was not an employee. Federal whistle blower in an online question and answer session last week, he said if i revealed what i knew about the unconstitutional but i could have been charged with a felony. Could snow dun return to the u. S. In any way other than in handcuffs . A civil no harm no foul i think that would be going too far. Attorney general errick holder said the u. S. Would be willing to engage there a conversation with snowden, but president obama has said repeatedly the nsa whistle blower must stand trial. I wont dwell on the debate about snowdens motives or legal standing. Or on the Supreme Court ironies associated with his choice of freedom loving nations. Which currently ends in august, but in that web chat. It is the best resolution for the government the public and myself, but it esunfortunately not possible. Whistle blower or traitor, the question if Edward Snowden can or will return, seems to center on a Legal Process that hasnt yet taken shape. James clapper and other National Security officials claim the damage done by Edward Snowdens leaks is massive. And thats not just talk, the Obama Administration continues to do what it can to apprehend snowden. And is prosecuting a Record Number of leakers. What options are open to all the participants in this tug of war . Obama administration, and those who make contemplate become whistle blowers, joining us to discuss the implications of the white houses war, the security transparency, and journalism are mark scout. Masters program and global scouters program. He is a former c,i analyst and historian for the spy museum. From durham north carolina, peter fiber. He was a member of the National SecurityCouncil Staff in the clinton and bush administrations. And thomas drake, he was prosecuted for revealing unclassified details of the n schumacheras surveillance programs. Mark, let me start with you, when the administration uses words like massive, and costly, when it devils into what some critics have called high personally, how are we to understand the value of what Edward Snowden took, and the damage it has done. Well, we will be sorting out the value of what he took for a very long time. But based oen what we with do know, it appears to have been truly among the most sensitive and important secrets that nsa really one of the backbones of the community, has. And in terms of just the volume of what he took away with him, i can really only think of one other precedent, and it even surpasses that and thats the walker whit ward spiraling. He was a chief petty office that spied for the soviets for nearly 20 years in the 60s into the 80s and what he gave away was information that allowed the soviets to intercept almost all Navy Communications for that entire period. What snowden homicide done in terms of volume is comparable only to that. When you rah in the realm of hundreds of thousands. You are really in a place we have never really been before. Peter fever, you note that mark stout noted traitors and spied as peers. Does Edward Snowdens spoken make any difference . I dont think so. Much owhat he has released had knock to do with the programs that for which he has been most celebrate and revealed. So theres the category of domestic surveillance that are controversial, and his supports on the far left and right, have praised him for releasing those. But thats a tiny fraction of what has been released. There the 2 million documents and much of what he has released has nothing to do request that in the very core business just so as to reveal other bits that he finds more controversial. That damage is quite severe. Is he a criminal . He is. He has broken laws, clearly, and so he clearly is guilty of multiple felony i shouldnt say clearly, he can be charged for multiple felonies and that will be approved in a court of law. He will face such a court, and if he is found guilty by that court, then yes he is guilty as a criminal. But it certainly seems from the outset likely that he would be found guilty because of what he has done. For the fast almost eight months now. What he revealed is an extraordinary mass surveillance, the world has never seen before. Not just domestically but also indiscriminate collection of just about anything nsa and his partners get ahold of, this is nothing like anything i was involved with, and even during the colder war, we always targeted foreigners for a purpose. Those who we needed to monitor and were a threat to National Security, or pose potential threats to National Security. The idea that you will find threats by simply collecting everything, is one of the red herrings here, in fact, that turns every straw in the hair stack into a needle. But peter just made the point that he revealed far more than simply those things that have gotten him the most attention, and made him in the view of some civil libertarians in the United States a hero. Thats true, by it shows how far we have gone. Where is the justification in terms of spying over many many years on the personal cell phone of chancellor angel americale of germany. S she a terrorist threat . Where do you draw the line . Its one reason i have said in the past that we are all foreigners now. It doesnt seem to be indy rim minute. It simply wants to collect everything, and thats what i was told when i began my whistle blowing shortly after 9 11, we just need the data. We just need the data, because we dont know where the threat may be, and the monothat was just hoard it, collect it, gather it all, just in case. Thats why i find it very interesting that you have leading spokesperson who are now saying well, even though we cant prove the 54 that the so called 54 celebrated terrorism events were discovered or in some ways were found out, and even the one that they did say the 8,500 was easily located by Traditional Law enforcement means, hey, we just need the data. We with just need the data, period. And well talk more about what you did, and what it has meant for you later in the program. And also talk about the references by James Clapper in yesterdays hearing to reporters as accomplices. Is the free press in jeopardy . You are watching inside story. And so in that sense, i think the reporters are getting caught up in the administrations efforts to stop leaking. Did you talk to a journalist thomas. I maltly did after blowing the whistle over a number of years. It was a fateful decision, but under the First Amendment i was bringing information out. In the Public Interest regarding extraordinary violations over Civil Liberties as well as multibillion dollars fraud and the loss of intelligence. Huge intelligence failures. So i realize in going to the press, that the government might not appreciate that. On the other hand did it make your situation worst . In many respects it was a red herring thats not the real reason they came after me, the real reason was the disclosure involving the secret surveillance programs. Thats the primary purpose. Is was facing 35 years in prison, under a ten felony account indictment. We need to understand and appreciate, that what are seeing here is an extraordinary disturbing development, in our history. Its a direct assault on the First Amendment, and it sends the most chilling messages. If you are criminalizing whistle blowing and now you are collating to anybody that supports the whistle or the disclosure of National Secrets and the government arguing with the high person bly, that it causes grave damage, thats precisely the same thing they did to me. They said i would have the blood of american soldiers on my hands. They endangered the lives that what i did is worse than a spy, because it means that everybody gets to read about it includes the spies because at least when you disclose to spies it is in secret. The ship has already left the port. It is crashed into the spy. It is why what is that consistenting of . That is the security state. Violating our privacy and our citizen sovereignty. Not just domestically but also overseas. Make sure the public knows what it needs to know about what its government is doing . That that the constitution in the form of the First Amendment is protected . But misconduct, malfeasance, failure, is not able to be hidden under the cloak of National Security . To my mind, theres really two things we need to do. One with is to disenaingeble some of the issues. And notice some really important differences between for instance what tom did and what Edward Snowden has done. Just because certain accusations were completely incorrectly used doesnt mean they may not be appropriately for some of what Edward Snowden did. I think we need to make distinctions among three categories. Collection domestically, indiscriminate collection which troubled me deeply, indiscriminate collection abroad, which strikes me as maybe problematic from a policy point of view, but is not even slightly unconstitutional constitutional. And really focus collection abroad on targets that i think every reasonable american would agree we need to be collected on, and theres a number of those. Is i do think there needs to be better lemn sleighs on and protection for whistle blowers, both in the Civil Servants government emblye owes and members of the military so that the uncertainties that sheds more heat than light, on what kind of status both legally and sort of ethically if you will, become a little more clear. I think in a situation where some of the things like the domestic collection could have properly been brought to the attacks of Authority Whose may have been in a position to do something about it while providing protection, if those things have been in place, we may not be facing leaks about how we are collecting the communications of the taliban. Hold that thought. Because i want to start after the next break, with where we go from here. This is inside story, stay with us. Story. Come back to inside im ray swarez. The documents Edward Snowden stole from the nsa make up the biggest theft of classified information in our nations history. Some see a criminal, some see a hero, but is he a whistle blower in a legal sense of the term . And thomas drake, whats out there for Edward Snowden now . He is sitting there in russia, he says he hopes to come back to the United States, we heard the attorney general at the beginning of the program say clemency seemed to him to be out of the question. So where do we go from here . Lets remember that he had no desire to actually go to russia. It was the United States who actually revoked his passport. Making him unable to travel with legal papers. And ultimately, he was extended temporary asylum by russia. The irony, of course, is he is probably safener russia now that is he is anywhere else, and i recognize in saying that, even in terms of its previous history not a pair gone of human rights and Civil Liberties yet he is probably safest there. Returning to the United States is out of the question, thats clear from all of the statements being made. I mean, look, i know what i face when i was here within the United States, they actually confiscated my passport and i had severe travel restrictions. So his future in returning to the United States would be fought with enormous peril, i dont believe he would have ha the ability to receive a fair trial. My trial alone was quite revealing. It is really foundational if you go back and read the filings, regarding the government intent. What penalty was ultimately brought in your case . My case, i was able to prevail, i was able to prevail with the truth. And they dropped fall of the charges and i pled tout a minor Million Dollars for exceeding authorize use of computer, having to do nothing with classified information, but i had no jail time or fine. Let me turn to peter, do you think he will be able to negotiate his way back into the United States. Edward snowden . Well, the he would be lucked back, but he would face charges. The u. S. Government would very much like to have snowden back in the United States. He is but he would have to face the charges for the actions that he has taken. He is unwilling to face the legal system. The legal consequences of what he has done, and in a sense thats the Bigger Picture here. The question is how are we going to oversee the National Security . Are we going to do it constitutionally, by the processes of different branches of government, looking at what each other is doing . Or is it going to be a vigilante system. Where individuals get to decide on their own, what is right and wrong . Thats at issue here. Snowden has taken to law into his own hands and he is unwilling to face the legal system that awaits him back here in the United States. Mark stout would it be a mistake to make law around such a outliar case . Or are we with being pushed there . I think by sop extent we are being pushed there, but i also dont think he will be the last case that we see along these lines. In fact, he is not even the first. Bradley or Chelsea Manning depending on how you want to refer to that individual, basically did something very very similar, with much less sensitive information, and i think that the nature that some people are called super powers individuals is such that we will see more of this. So sooner or later there will have to be a political reckoning on how we as a society, and also we as a government or a legal system is where going to deal with this. If we see the system, so that somebody that works with a private company doesnt get to see the inner sang up the, will we have put it further away . I dont think so. I this i thats something that people can agree to disagree, but i dont think the issue here is contractors verses government employees. The same sorts of moral imperatives. However it is you want to characterize ma was behind it, applied to contractors. And they are under essentially entirely the same security regime. So i dont think thats the issue per se. I think there was a bit of a problem in that what whistle blower protections did exist, which i think were grossly inadequate, in temples of the degree of threat i dont see that as being any greater. Such as tom or actually all of us at various times in our careers. We continue to forget that nsa itself also needs to be held accountable, and while avoiding the truth about what you are actually were with doing behind is scenes and under the cover of secrecy. Thank you all, terrific conversation, that brings us to the end of this edition of inside story. Thank you for being with us, in washington, im ray swarez. P conflicts over resources waiting to erupt across this oil, gas and freshwater rich country. Back in 2010, the canadian province of New Brunswick granted a texasbased company, southwestern energy, licenses to explore for shale gas in exchange for investment worth 47 Million Dollars