A crowd crushed the victims were mostly people in their twenties who was celebrating halloween and sole pressed into units of you visited the scene, saying have government would prevent, subtract it from happening again. Ill just here as well. But private reports from the scene we are in the middle of each one. Its the traditional bar and entertainment district. Ill sole, if i stand back. Can you see the, this is the actual out, the way where this tragedy happened. And the whole of each one is like, this is a very congested area with small alleyways at small streets. This was thronged by thousands of people out celebrating halloween. And this is where the president pulled it. It seems as though for whatever reason and that is being investigated, crowds converged on this one alleyway from different directions. Russia says it suspending participation the u. N. A broken grain export deal with ukraine after tax on it ships anchored of crimea. Us present, joe biden has said the move will increase starvation around the world. Somalia is the president says at least 100 people have been killed in a Suicide Attack in the Capital Market issue on saturday to car bombs exploded at a busy junction. There several government offices u. S. House speak and nancy pelosi says shes heartbroken and traumatized or to her husband was attacked inside the San Francisco home on friday for posies, recovering from surgery or to being assaulted with a hammer. 42 year old suspect has been charged with attempted murder to contend. As in brazils president ial election have held final rallies before sundays vote. Encumbrance, terrible scenario is almost neck and neck. The former president massey at the da silva, according to the opinion polls. Rwandan ambassador to the democratic republic of congo has been given the 48 hours to leave the country spokesperson said the movies in retaliation for goddess and that support of the m. 23 rebels in the congress. Eastern provinces. The im 23 grip has gained ground in recent days. As are the headlights and use continues. Hurry al jazeera, thats after talk to al jazeera. We also do believe that women of afghanistan was somehow abandoned by the international community. We listen, we have a huge price for the war against terrorism as going on in so money. We meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter on al jazeera, georgia. Maloney is italys 1st female Prime Minister. She takes office as the head of the most far right coalition, since Benito Mussolini dictatorship. Shes the latest in a line of female nationalists occupying high ranking political positions like frances marine, la pen, and germanys allas vital bologna is a cent, has been linked to a phenomenon known as femoral nationalism, where feminist ideas are used to advance a nationalist agenda. But why did women join far right movements in the 1st place when they so often infringe on womens rights . And what happens when its women at the head of a populace nationalist . Thats our conversation this week on upfront. Ah, joining me to discuss this are sarah ferris, associate professor in sociology ed Goldsmiths University of london, an author of in the name of womens rights. The rise of federal nationalism by anti fernando is associate professor of anthropology at the university of california. Santa cruz and Cynthia Miller address is director of the polarization and Extremism Research and Innovation Lab at american university. Shes also the author of heat in the homeland, the new global far right. Thank you for joining me on up front, sada, im going to start with you, you coined the term federal nationalism. Can you talk to me about sort of where this term comes from and how it evolved over time . Christa was finacialow them a for those who know not term is short for me, needs them. And the nationalism or it is a term that i have introduced to describe. But the way in which, nationally, right wing parties are, you was a mainstream feminist ideas and generic ideas of gender equality, particularly in there on that migration and slum campaign. But this term also refers to notify me sir, who has proposed the or indoors the anti used lumber legislation, thereby converging gra, with nationally to and when i speak of anti islam legislation. I think for example, of the vail balance in a country like france where younger muslim women could not wear the he shop in public schools. So i think when ashley isnt because you asked how he has as goal of the over time, i think it has definitely intensified since 911. We have seen more and more right wing the nationalist political formation. So using an instrument allies in id, as a womens rights, particularly with the migration and hes done before because campaigns. So this has to be in emerging pattern where many far right movements feature women and important positions. We thought we saw this most recently in italy with the election of the most far right coalition, since Benito Mussolini dictatorship headed by georgia maloney making i heard the countrys 1st female Prime Minister. Shes talked about limiting abortions. Shes against employment quotas for women policies. One can argue hurt most women, but many like former us president ial candidate, Hillary Clinton, appraising her victory, saying, quote, the election of the 1st woman, Prime Minister in a country always represents a break with the past. And that is certainly a good thing. Why do you think many self describe feminist, like Hillary Clinton see maloney as a win for feminism . And overlooking her far right policies. While i think in the case of clinton for example, or there is certainly be a kind of idea back to if we met when election, if we might gain prominence roles within political formations come come, how these is again for families or not, but maloney easy got no family in any way, maloney actually stays at several times so that she thinks women she should stick to their roles as mothers, they should be christian. And that they certainly shouldnt have been a bush. She fights against the so called gender theory, ease again, the same sex marriage and adoptions by almost sexual capital and in the sense in fox to her victory, ease, dramatic defeat, for feminism and adage. B q writes a man, what are your thoughts . There was a 2019 analysis of 7 European Countries and showed that over 40 percent of votes for the radical right that came from women. And in italy, maloneys party, brothers of italy, received more votes from women than any other party. What interest to im going to speak for women collectively, but what might be some possibilities for why women would be invested in electing someone like maloney . Well, i dont think necessarily that women both at the block, right . Women have very different interests, as weve seen with maloney, as weve seen with other right wing leaders. I think its, i think its a mistake to assume that just because one of the women one is going to vote for some this to gender. And i think that there are ways in which so called traditional family values, an anti l g b t q, platform, immigration, and immigration. You know, legislation, all of those things speak to women as much as they do to men. And i think its not surprising in some sense that there are lots and lots of women who vote for whitening agenda and kind of anti feminist agenda in part because a lot of women dont identify feminists including ga maloney herself. Right. So be another example of this trend is hungary, president Katelyn Novak who is nominated by far right. Prime minister, victor or bonds. Fidel party, after serving as a government administer of family affairs. When we see women, whole prominent positions within authoritarian or autocratic government, is that still an improvement on the patriarchy of the past . Or is it just a new way to legitimize authoritarianism . I think, you know, one of the things its really important to distinguish is womens empowerment from actual womens rights are womens are feminist goals. And i think a lot of what we see sometimes also in the extreme far right, is women who now feel more empowered often through kind of social media engagements to be leaders in a way that was excluded for them before. But that leadership doesnt necessarily mean that theyre, that theyre promoting goals that are going to be adding rights for other women or for marginalized groups across the board. And we saw that with, you know, the weapon is ation of motherhood. For example, is a really clear example where with the Tea Party Sarah Palin was calling on women to be kind of mama grizzlies and protect your cubs from government overreach or from immigrants or whatever it is. Right . So a lot of this can attract women, especially when women are in charge, you know, and its a woman calling on you to lean into your role as a mother or as a wife for lena. And thats exactly the reason i think that the liberal feminism is making a very different argument about women dont identifies right. And so quite frankly, they have no investment in advance the feminist agenda. Right. But some of these women use the Hillary Clinton example. Do identify as feminist, theyre taking on whether endorsing theyre supporting the victories of Women Leaders who are who, who victory signal really the undermining of feminist goals around all sorts of empower. Absolutely. I think we have to hold the contradiction sort of in our hands while were understanding. You cant assume that a woman is going to be supportive of, of any rights for women. And in fact, in, in these cases, were seeing repeatedly the majority of women who voted for trump in 2016 and again in whenever you think that is the perfect example. 20162020. The majority of white women in the United States of america voted for dominic priest in 2020 went up to 25 and im baffled by right. I mean 26 women of accusing sexual misconduct. He introduced policies that chip away, womens health, womens, economic, security, etc. I dont know its mind boggling. And you fast forward even to the capital insurrection. On january 6, 2021, women represented 14 percent of people being arrest and some of the really violent people as well. Right. Violence. Why . Theres so many Women United States shifting to the forward. It just seems so counterintuitive to me. I think, you know, there are a lot of different things. One, i think women are they, they are enjoying those leadership role that they couldnt afford. Right. So they went white women have always been involved. Lets say somebody was making the ku klux klan hoods right there. Theres sewing there, homeschooling, theyre cooking right. They have always supported these violent White Supremacy movements and other far right movements throughout history. But now they are able to step into leadership roles in large part because a lot of this happens in social media spaces where they are able to step away from some of the massage, any or the harassment that they might have experienced in other settings. And so theyre taking advantage of that and, but they, but we cant count on women just because theyre women, especially white women. As weve seen. We cannot count on these women to, to be doing anything in their leadership roles that are supporting womens rights or anyone elses rights for that matter. Drill down on this, this, this question of whiteness as well. My auntie, what do you make of the idea that family nationalism is predominantly supported by those who institutionally benefit from from whiteness, it is boil down to a drive in many ways to protect the privileges associated with race. Yes, i think it does. And i think what you see, as sarah mentioned earlier, you know, some nationalism is heavily linked with a kind of anti islam phobic discourse about too many muslim immigrants about, you know, the supposed massage and sexism of muslim man versus the enlightened gender. Politics of white men, european men, and so i think race has a lot to do with this. I do think religion also has a lot to do with this in the sense that, you know, race and religion in europe right. In 2016 the far right french politician marine the pen, stated, i am scared that the migrant crisis signals the beginning of the end of womens rights. This again, point to the idea that non western migrates are a threat to womens rights to womens values, and therefore we need immigration laws that are more restrictive. But what does it say about how were defining womens rights today . When someone actually say that womens rights are under threat, which women are they talking about . Right, well i will say to say, i think 2 things are important to keep in mind here. One is that the issue of insecurity, right, of feeling unsafe a feeling insecure socially is actually getting at something real. And that is partly due or actually in some ways, largely due to the kind of cuts in social programs, the economic lib liberal policies that all of these governments have through including, you know, in france and italy, all over europe. And so there is a sense, i think, amongst a lot of people, a feeling you know, socially insecure. Now i think what happens is that, that feeling of social insecurity get deferred onto black and brown immigrants. And so, rather than taking care of the kind of the sense of social insecurity, and i mean, you cannot make insecurity that many, many people who are not wealthy in europe are feeling the solution then become immigrants. Lets get rid of immigrants rather than lets actually deal with you can nomic policy that make people more secure and come back to the question of womens rights in the sense that i think. So i mentioned this earlier, if we understand womens rights and its strictly kind of abstract sense, right . Then kind of far right womens rights discourse makes sense. But if we, if we think about what women actually need in their real life, things like health care, things like childcare, you know, the kind of Social Security that, that many women need. Then i think the womens rights discourse takes on a very different kind of flavor. And so its not really surprising to me that someone like Hillary Clinton would laud the election of georgia maloney as a feminist. You know, a feminist arrival of sorts. Because Hillary Clintons understanding of feminism is largely rights based versus, you know, lets call it accept based on materialist write about material goods and material rights for women like access to abortion and not just the right to abortion, but actually access for poor and rural women to abortion which has been undermined again and again and again by republican policies. But the kind of liberal feminist discourse has been about the right to abortion rather than access. And i think that that, that is a problem with a kind of liberal feminism. Frank, thats an important distinction youre making in cynthia, youve written about the quote fantasy of a white ethnic state, the White Supremacists desire for a white, a white homeland, basically at the root of this is great replacement theory, which is a conspiracy about the global plot to drive white people to extinction and gasp, replace them with black and brown people. Youve written about how anti abortion movements, including in the United States, have capitalized on this fear of a decline in the white population. You know, the kind of birth rates can, can you explain how this manufactured fear of white extinction has been exploited by the anti abortion groups . These scapegoating fears of like white civilization dying out, you know, has always, has been there for decades at least for, you know, for longer. Right. Theres, youve seen language around birthrates declining birth rates and, you know, and then the boundaries of whiteness opening up. Also like bringing more people in the italians, the irish, the people that used to be excluded on the census suddenly become white. Right to, to keep keep whiteness boundaries. Opening up. I would say at the same time as your fears about declining birthrates and demographic change. So, you know, we see that right now with this call for like to call on white women to have more white babies essentially. Right. This pro natal is kind of claim about that but feeding right into right into arguments about, about great replacement essentially like that. That is your obligation to do that. And so i think some of this language around motherhood around being a mother around protecting your cubs is also kind of coded with language about white mothers. Its about, its really about a specific kind of mother and, and about because its not, its not a young immigrant mother whos coming in with, with 4 or 5 kids that theyre applauding here. Right. Its definitely like the, the style job for some kind of fantasy of a 1950 housewife with 6 white babies that theyre raising up to replace these kinds civilization. So i think thats really important to understand what these sisters are part of, what make the narrative compelling. Right . So, i mean, theres a way that when we in the United States where im sitting here, oh, were going to go liberate those women. Those women cant go out of the house without a male part of those people have to wear over garments. Theres a very particular way that these matters are compelling because of the long history of patriarchy massage, any. How do we disentangled those things . The reality of the patriarchy, but also the real dangerous and reinforcing a nationalist project through federal nationalism. Yes, definitely. In the west, we have seen that is, i mean, this not receives about, you know, the why to europe, piano, you are american civilization. Saving the rest of the war than particularly we manage from backward the cultural religious practices you name to mean its a 20 year old. I mean, even colonialism that was justified in these ways. And the natives in that, in the colonies were portrayed as in theory or not even as fully human beings. And so in that sense. And what i would say is that there was a certain narrative amongst the many white western families that to and in many ways the rights that we meant as conquered or through coming back to either west or somehow makes the gender make agenda relations in the west. Superior to those in other countries and these somehow gives why we made that in europe one in america kind of more read superiority towards this women as the pizza. Somehow le more a duty to show these women the path the to real emancipation. And i think what is the very much forgotten is that colonialism certainly had a very Important Role in that, in many ways that even that preventing or somehow blocking the, the fight for womens rights in some of these, of these colonies. The last thing that i always tell my students is that in egypt and the rights for women to vote, to ease that conquered in 1950. If 56. 00 are in switzer lambda, we men that have the full right to both in 1991. So this is all to say that we really need to understand these histories, the, and the implication off the really western colonialism, a western narratives there in how gender relations and womens rights are of been portrayed around the world. Since youve written about how historically white women have been part of the radical right, you talked about it earlier. You said theyre the one sewing the k k costume. Right. And theyve been part of the kick, a k, the part of the pro, not see a german american wound up. But with in these movements, women often face massage need. How do women in these movements sort of experience massaging the harassment gender violence is they participate in this right far, right. Political activity . Well, in some cases, theyre completely excluded, right . So we have groups like the proud boys who dont allow women and all right. So you still have some of these and of course growing mens rights and in cell and violent mel supremacist movements. So theres a lot of that side of it on the white supremacist side. You know, we also see that one of the major reasons, if not the major reason why women leave these movements, is because of the massage in the harassment and Sexual Violence that they experience at the hands of men in those movements. You know, but we also find that in this moment of social media, when we have now and theres a young scholar name of an idea who is about to have a book on this. Ive just read which is about women influencers and social media spaces on youtube and other places where they are really, you know, embedding, homeschooling and cooking and kind of related content with white supremacist extremist content at the same time. Right. And its very instagram ish like in the sense statically with like, you know, theres always like a white black white woman in a field of wheat with little dappled deer. And you know, like, and in the woods with the light, is very statically pleasing. You know very much this kind of like farm to table purity of organic food embedded into the purity of your race and the way youre right. You know, very insidious and, and theres a lot of that on a lot more than you think. And, and i think it connects to womens hobbies in some cases and to their sense of self in their own kind of empowerment if you will, at the same time as theyre really horrific. You know, exclusionary ideas, anti immigrant is on the phobic, racist ideas that theyre expressing. But embedded as like, you know, this kind of you know, rustic motherhood, homeschooling package. And so i think theres a lot going on that social media platforms and online spaces have enabled, as women have been able to forge this. And i hate to say kind of empowered spaces online that enable them to find a whole new channel and a whole new voice for expressing hateful content. Part of what makes me hope is that i see feminists who are recognizing what were talking about. They see through and they reject them, nationalist ideas, whether its maloney, whether its le pen, whether its standing up to people or victor or by and they are doing the work. And so it makes me wonder, as we, as we sort of conclude here, what does an International Inclusive feminist movement look like . That address is a global inequality. May i start with you . Sure. I think what you just said about doing the work is really important. And i think these movements have to start on the ground and they have to do the work on the ground. They have to do the work of figuring out how to deal with inequality. Figuring out how to deal with social insecurity, figuring out how to deal with unemployment, with health care, with all of the sort of social issues that, that people care about. And, and i, so i think any kind of International FeministMovement Really has to start there rather than in a kind of abstract, right discourse, which is where i think unfortunately it kind of, you know, white, middle class liberal feminism has, has largely been so i think thats certainly where i would start. I think it has to start on the ground during the work. I re and i would add that i think we have to understand that our lack of policies for child care for the cost of higher education, for maternity paternity leave. Contribute to the attractiveness of some of these movements, the ones that i talked about for young women who feel like the system isnt working for me. And i want an alternative and someone is out there offering escape, goat, fear mongering and alternative. So it makes them manipulative. Rhetoric kind of and propaganda even more persuasive to some people. And so the propaganda is, is made more attractive by our failure to address some of the basic issues of, of how people live in a life and how they can imagine a future for themselves. So ill give you the last word. Well, i completely agree with law has been a just said, maybe just a word of a whole. I also feel are a little bit more optimistic in some ways that in the sense that i think the majority of we can say by means organizations the self identifying feminist. So i think now they understand a pretty well the insidiousness of a few more nationalism and maybe 11. 00 thing that i would say that gives me hope in the sense that is the way in which a news from iran are commented. It is true that in some cases so as you can imagine, some commentators jumped to say that the problem is again, islam. And that islam does not to protect womens rights. But i see increasingly that actually the certainly the majority of feminist with all my speak, but even just reading the paper, sir, what is happening in iran, there is really much more its really received as a problem. We are a and oppressive regime that is that denying that women their freedom of choice or when he comes to choose what they can wear. And in that sense, this is to say, think that these awareness or better the bashing of islam of the bashing of immigrants for example, is really a nationalist right wing. The strategy that has not played with in a truly progressive feminist agenda, i think is much more internalized by the younger generations of families. So, and this gives me some hope that certainly is a sign of hope, but i want to pick all of you for you. Brilliant analysis i sat on my own of you. Thanks so much for joining us for everybody that is our show. A front will be back ah, a new documentary series discovers how centuries old indigenous knowledge is being used to deal with current problems of climate change. And this is how modern economic ambition is so often at odds with many of the worlds indigenous communities and the traditional way of life. Conceive i consider it an honor to share the creams of our people with others. Fascinations frontline, coming soon on al jazeera yugoslavia disintegrated. War descended on its inhabitants. Amidst the death and destruction, one man created a peaceful microcosm for boys whose fathers faced each other in battle. Episode 3 of football rebels enters the world of footballing legend, prag, cushy h. Who went from coaching boys football to teaching young men life, frederick pushed each of the siege of sarajevo on al jazeera. Examining the impact of todays headlines. Humanity has been sent a memo by nature, and that man was down. Glad back. A son, setting the agenda for tomorrows discussions. 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