And more than 700 people across russia have been detained after protest against permanence mobilization military reservists twins have cracked arnold demonstrate as opposing the army call upson. Several cities including moscow and petersburg mobilization order has led to more people fleeing russia. Port reefs reports now from the valley mar checkpoint in finland from where some russians tried to escape the draft being sent back. It was a successful trip across the border for these russians arriving in finland as they continued their journey by bus and car to helsinki and beyond. But not all were so fortunate. Auditorium left Saint Petersburg on saturday morning by the afternoon. He was being sent back. His stay in the European Union lasted just 2 hours as he had the wrong visa to travel onwards to germany, to try and claim asylum. Yeah, i can put it to put you go to put them on the menu, but im in the priority category for being called up to fight in ukraine under the mobilization order. Because i have discharge papers from the army. People just like me going to be taken in the 1st wave of it. I would choose to go to prison rather than fight in ukraine, even though they will torture me or shoot me. Im 2nd so you know, beauty, let us to let you know to that card. Know that mason. Yeah. Still the only thing which brings me piece is that until the moment im caught, im going to be with my family saturday was relatively quiet here. In contrast to packed crossings from russia to georgia, finlands foreign minister peca harvey stokes said on friday that the government plans to stop russians entering the country on shanghai tourist visas. The longest line of calls here was queuing in the other direction. We used to get the use, it was funny, i was insane on holiday, so im going back to russia as far as i know, people who are eligible for the military on being struck from leaving russia. But if i was asked to go to war, i dont think i would go. The number of russians entering finland daily had doubled ahead of saturday and more arrived as the day wore on. The restriction is being proposed by finland should mean that in most cases, russians will only be allowed across the board to visit family or go to work. But with that yet to come into effect the cues on the road from some petersburg starting to build again. Polaris aldis era volume are finland or voting is continuing in, referendum is seen as part of moscows push to the next 4 regions in ukraine. Amen. The reporter to have gone door to door to get people to vote. Keith says the vote is illegal and has condemned it as a sham south korea and japan say north korea has fired a Ballistic Missile towards the sea of japan. To launch comes 2 days after nuclear. Proud u. S. Aircraft carrier arrived in this south korean city pusan to participate in joint drills as a by jones for our minister says its time to work towards the normalization of relations between his country and armenia. Jay hood bottom of made the comment during his address to the un general assembly. If all is fighting between armenia and as by john this months, it has killed more than a 150 soldiers. 2 days ago, we listened to the statement delivered here by the Prime Minister of armenia. Regretfully, this was yet another evidence. You must rating there. The armenian site seems focused on, continued the confrontation instead of normalization. In azerbaijan, we believe that our asian has seen enough confrontation, destruction, and suffering. It is high time for both our nations to engage fully and wholeheartedly in the post conflict normalization. So we can finally turn over the tragic page of our history and Start Building a Better Future for our children. The commitment officer by genocide is that we hope that i mean, you will finally reciprocate constructively and engage generally into the negotiations. Hundreds of thousands of canadians have been left without power after storm fear in a hit. These coast homes were washed away by the store. One saturday and trees were blown down. Parts of New Foundland have been evacuated. Those are headlines. Got one is coming up after the bottom line. I forgot. Ah hi, im Steve Clements and i have a question. As republican governors dump refugees in different cities across america, does either party really have a plan for immigration . Lets get to the bottom line. Ah. Human beings are now being used as pawns literally. Ponds in americas culture wars, republican governors have been organizing bus trips and more recently air flights for latin american refugees who shown up in their states. And now theyre sending them off to democratic states. These refugees, many of whom are applying for asylum, were promised housing and jobs that they got on the transport. But they were duped. Its as cruel as it sounds, and its only getting worse. Last week, texas sent bus loads of migrants to the residence of Vice President comma harris in washington, d. C. And florida, flu, 48 migrants in texas to the posh island of Marthas Vineyard. Yes. An island off the coast of massachusetts. The republican governors who are doing this want to spark a National Debate on immigration with a few weeks left before the mid term elections. Well, will it work . Can americans agree on any immigration policy . Is there a middle ground between 0 tolerance and open borders . Today were talking with barris stockman, a journalist whos covered politics, social movements, and race and is a member of the New York Times editorial board. Shes the author of american made. What happens to people when work disappears . And tom nichols, a writer at the atlantic magazine, former professor of National Security affairs at the us naval war college. Hes the author of our own worst enemy, the assault from within on modern democracy. Thank you both for joining me today. You almost simultaneously had the headlines about this migrant stuff about the movement of people, the shipping people, to Marthas Vineyard, and both of you had interesting takes on americas migration refugee challenges right now. And id love to start with you fara, because you, you started by saying we have a deeper problem here, which is the story of america is being the story for the huddled masses yearning to be free, coming here from problems abroad seeking asylum. In many cases. Tell us how you saw this issue of what governor de santis did in grabbing a number of people a sit really seducing them on the plane and dropping them in Marthas Vineyard. Well, 1st of all, i was just weird. Like, how does the governor of florida send an operative to texas to bring them to, to Marthas Vineyard its, its a, its a strange story. He or his people are arguing that its preemptive, right . That these are people from venezuela who are going to end up in florida, and thats why he gets to insert himself in this way. But its very odd because, you know, this is the, this is hes kind of getting in on something that governor greg abbot has been doing for months now. Which is busing migrants to sanctuary cities quote unquote, in, in washington dc. And then new york and chicago, theyre, theyre trying to get attention right. But, and its working, frankly, if this, this is a son is working well tom, let me ask you about this side of shipping refugees and migrants to various cities and country. I saw this kind of thing a year ago in eastern europe. I was visiting at the time, telling estonia, and we were listening the state minister, the Security GuardSecurity Issues they were facing. And they said lucas shant go in in bella roost. Was sending folks over to iraq to pick up the rocky refugees promising them a better life in europe and dropping them off on the border. Lots and lots of people on the border of lithuania and that this was, you know, creating lots of tensions for the government in lithuania. And lo and behold, we see the source. I dont seem to be talking about that from a year ago. But is this something you think people watched, and this is sort of a copycat exercise. I dont think the santas watch that. I think what the santis watched was Tucker Carlson back in july thing. Would it be great if we dumped a lot of people on Marthas Vineyard . You know the thing is there, there is an immigration problem in the United States. We do have problems with our border. I mean, if you go back 25 years to the, to the Democratic Party platform, when bill clinton was running, he talks about how, you know, in the early ninetys, americans didnt even really have borders. But, but what disinterested is completely separate from that. This is just a kind of form of cultural warfare thats meant to primarily the advance rhonda sentences position and they were coming republican president ial primary. And there was just a kind of a juvenile mean spirited next to it, that really has nothing to do with immigration, but everything to do with turning to your holding base and saying, see, i make people in massachusetts mad because messages just bad. And Marthas Vineyard is full of liberals, and in a strange way, i think it backfires because its fair that it brings attention to it. But i think it convinces a lot of people across the country that only really terrible people worry about immigration. Well, let me, of course, we should all worry about it. Let me show you a poll that was done recently on, on whether the United States is experiencing an invasion at the southern border look at these numbers. So we have 76 percent of republicans think theres an evasion in the southern border, 40 percent of democrats, and so say what you will about 40 percent. Still a big number when you look at that time. And i just want to note that in your article, you go to kind of length to say what you just said. We have a problem with the southern border. You identify yourself as a conservative whos looked at this. You didnt just call these, you know, on an official, folks, you said these are illegal folks that have come into the country. How is your view changed . When you look at these numbers, what do you think the credible way is to deal with that sense of threat than Many Americans are feeling . I am both the grandson of immigrants on both sides of my family. And i still think of myself as an immigration hawk, i actually think the 2 things are related that you know, i cherish immigration and i want it done properly because thats the strength of america. What i dont want, and where i change my view is, you know, a hard line policy at the border thats implemented. Pure purely for sadistic kicks. Purely for kind of, you know, this, these sadistic motives that are meant to advance the political careers of a couple of guys in texas and florida. Thats not policy because the other thing of america is about, is about being humane. Is about being a refuge for people and i mean, we have to, we have to have the rule of law, we have to have order. And i think that, that, you know, for him, for, for people who want a Strong Border and regularized immigration system, thats really important. But i mean, that doesnt mean that i would ever sign on. I dont think any of us should sign up for the intentional tormenting of children as a deterrent, which is what happened over the past few years with things like family separation. There has to be something in between throwing up our hands and saying, well, theres nothing we can do about it and saying, well, the only thing we can do about it is to put a bunch of, you know, statistic, jerks in charge of tormenting people. I mean, thats really, thats not what america is. Certainly not what america is to me in european, which i highly recommend to people is so powerful and kind of looking at the ethic of america about what it was about. And i just want to have you, in your words, share with our viewers. What seeking asylum means and compare say, a few years ago in terms of the number of Asylum Seekers that were coming into this country versus what were seeing today virtually every month in, in staggering levels. Yeah, so weve seen about a 1000000 people enter the country in the last, since biden has become president , and about a 150000 of them have managed to seek asylum. Theres many more that are able to seek asylum through this process. I think they have about a year to do it. And at what, thats a similar number actually that, that came in under similar circumstances under, under trump. And i, i just have to say that this is a, this is broken, the system, these, these, than the sure number of people that have come in cant be handled by our courts. Our courts have been very archaic. They up until very recently they were using paper files. And so the amount of time that it takes to get a hearing has gone from like 45. 00 days to 4 and a half years. So now you can wait years before you even get a hearing. And it could be like 7 years before you actually, your case is actually decided. And so what i said in my piece is that our system is chaotic enough that it actually has become a self perpetuating problem. Because if it takes so many years to get a hearing, then people are incentivized to apply for asylum its. Its not easy to go through the process. But if you go through the process, then you get Work Authorization after 150 days. And so its, i think that this is one of the problems we need a system. Its more modern thats more efficient and thats more fair, where people who actually deserve asylum. People who qualify for asylum can, can make it right and can, can get what they are, what they deserve. And where you can kind of weed out the people who are just trying to skip the line, skipped the integration, skip immigration line. The, the other thing i have to say is that this is, this is not just something we have another by and its been a growing one like backlog has, has its, its been going for years and years and years. And were actually seeing because of the higher hiring of wor, immigration judges. Were actually seeing the system start to work out the kinks and start to operate faster. And this is where weve seen completion of markets while that may be the case, but you make a really interesting point in your piece is saying that, you know, from an incentive structure, those people coming across the border. Now we have an incentive to ask for asylum whether or not they are deserving or not. And so those of us that are looking, you know, a few steps aside. Say, you know, look at the numbers, they see whats going on. I understand theres, you know, horror and impunity, and rapes and killings in other parts of the world that people may be trying to escape. But not all of those people are there and the numbers have searched such levels that its created a lot of skepticism. We just show you both, you know, these, these numbers. I mean, because i would be worried. But if you look at these numbers here, support for legal status for immigrants has really decline from overall 65 percent of the country was a bit very bit in 2018 to about 51 percent and still falling now. And i guess my question is, when we look at legal status, you know, tom, the, you switch in your article, you say i have now moved my view from being prickly about legality and all of this. And because of this sadistic what you call a sadistic stunt, you think we need to be now much more permissive, but most of america is not with you on this because they look and they dont trust the asylum route anymore. So tell me where im wrong. Well, i dont, unfortunately, i dont trust the people that used to be my fellow immigration box anymore. And what did it was . Not this not i was going to make a coming earlier when farrah was talking about the final speakers. You know, the, the nice thing is that de santis took a bunch of people from venezuela were the prime of facia case for asylum is probably pretty strong. And, you know, he took the one group of people where he really could say others probably this, the sure it looks a lot like asylum seeking. But then of course, the problem is that everybody says, well, thats the way you get in and im seeking asylum to that. Suddenly a 1000000 people say im seeking asylum and of course asylum does not mean that life in my country is terrible and life in your country is better. And, and so, you know, i have not changed my view to say, well, just, you know, let everybody in and will sort it out. But to say things like, you know, what really radicalized me here was not a scientist, but the family separation policy. Thats when i step back and i said, you know, there are people who claim to be care, but this puerto issue who, who really are just doing terrible things. The policy was to take children away from their parents and send them into the american. 7 kind of foster system or immigration. Hell, you know where there was simply no infrastructure to deal with them because nobody had done that on that scale before. And to do it as a deterrent literally to cause pain to parents and children as a message to others. Not to come here. I, you know, i again, old school law and order rule of law conservative. That does not mean inflicting pain on toddlers and babies intentionally as a warning to other people. And thats what i kind of felt radicalized away frying. So the harder views i took fair, let me ask you so the experience being felt by texas by arizona, by florida, Southern States in this, where liberals elsewhere in the country are basically saying we should be opening and welcoming. But they dont have the problems. They dont have the stress in the financial issues. And some liberals in progressives are beginning to say, now, now were getting it, which means that desantis and Governor Abbot may have actually started a conversation that could go in a constructive course. At least id love to get your mapping of this. I was just looking at all the comments on my stories and a lot of them were from people who said, im liberal and yet i, i, i feel for these places that are having a huge number of migrants come in because were tired. We, we have been volunteering in san antonio are helping them or we are, you know, like theres, there is a sense that places like boston and places like new york havent had to deal with what the border states have been dealing with. And you dont have to be statistic to say we, you know, it requires resources which the federal government has actually been giving to places like san antonio. But it does require resources to house people. Busy to, to, to teach kids who only know a different language. If its not free, it costs money and it can be a demographic, a demographic transformation of a place. And so look, my mother is from, she grew up in mississippi. Shes a black woman from mississippi and on the immigration issue, shes pretty, shes, shes sounds conservative. Sometimes shes like those jobs that these migrants are taking should go to black people who have been here all this time. And so, you know, there is a, its about, its a trade off, a lot of times people with people who are well off who have College Degrees and who want to hire, you know, babysitters for cheap or lawn care people to do their lawns, people to work on their houses, right. Those are the immigrants and were you know, so we like to have folks who are coming in who are going to work for less. Thats good for us. The americans that are competing with them in those industries dont like to have them coming in. And frankly, even recently naturalized hispanics who are their closest competitors, are some of the most hawkish on immigration that youll find. Why do you think trump got a boost in 2020 from some of those hispanic communities . Its a lot of it has to do an economic competition. And i think if democrats dont, dont acknowledge it or understand it, theyre going to lose the theres, theyre going to lose that debate. Because phone numbers. I mean, you, you thought yourself that 40 percent democrats the time, you know, i, i love you to break down the politics of this little bit. You know, President Trump has said america is full because full of folks. And we dont even now when i go around the country and see the job shortages and the people i keep wondering, wow, somethings going on here with a disconnect where restaurants cant run Small Businesses cant run. You know, Large Businesses are having a very hard time finding workers and retaining workers in this environment. So i guess what are the politics as you look forward at the, to the mid terms and then to 2024 of the america is full message. Well, some of the people that most, most strongly with trump in are the most anti immigrant actually live in places where there arent any immigrants you know, when, when you hear people in, in iowa and New Hampshire and montana complaining about immigrants thats, thats a message. Theyre picking up from the conservative media and the conservative kind of messaging ecosystem. But i think this, this dovetails back to ferris point. Immigration is a crisis. Its not just the problem, its crisis. And if you, in the Democratic Party, if a big share of the democratic parties only answer to that is to dismiss any discussion about immigration as racism, for example, and say, well, its just racism. Its not racism. There are people who want to have a diverse and welcoming country, but, you know, again, going back to the democrats of the ninetys to bill clinton, you cant just not have a border. And so the problem is that this stuff to go back to the whole florida and texas thing, i disagree that theyve opened the conversation. I think theyve created a kind of stupid binary that even i feel pulled into saying, well, what are i saying . The piece, if my choices run to santas and a bunch of goons pulling pranks or joe biden and the system we have now where we kind of muddle through. Ill take the system now and well muddle through that. I cant find out into that other approach. We also, i dont really think thats really a productive way to go about it, but the entire country has to become invested. And the key word here was resources, right . Country has to fall and resources, not just for education, not just for housing, but for, but because im inforcement and ill just finish by saying, you know, im old enough steve, that i was a young guy, washington. When the 1986 Immigration Reform act was passed, where, you know, Ronald Reagan signed the sam estate and it was kind of a lucy in the football. And that was supposed to get it all done. Right. Going to get it all done. Were never doing it again. This is one and done, the fixes are problems and you know, 35 years later, here we are. But let me ask you farrah, what should Vice President common harris be doing right now that shes not what she should be doing. I mean, look at this, the system is broken for a reason its, its broken by design. I think we are whole restaurant economy in new york is basically balancing on the idea that undocumented labor is, is working in the kitchens. Our, our Agriculture Sector is based on the idea of migrant labor, some of some of whom are undocumented. And so, you know, we have a system that wants people to be in limbo. It doesnt want to give them citizenship, it doesnt want to give them an american wage, but it needs their labor. And so that we have to come to terms of that as, as a society. I personally think that we need more legal pathways. I think a lot of people just dont like the chaos and the idea that people, anybody can just show up and walk in that right. Thats, thats, thats worry for me for a lot of people, not just conservatives. So we need to get a sense of control slows knowing whos coming in and keeping track of people, making sure that theyre there, the skills that we need, frankly, and that and that there are also alternatives for people who are just, frankly, extremely desperate and in need tom, let me give you 30 seconds on tips for Vice President harris. Well, i think her trip to central america, which was kind of her maiden Foreign Policy speech, did not go well. Immigration is always, you know, anybody who comes here as ferris said, you know, the side you have just, you can just kind of walk in, you know, i think bidens always been a little better about that. But, but the left flank of the Democratic Party really has to understand that, you know, there are people that are visible with gentlemen concern and not just, you know, greg abbott and ron de santis pulling statistic print. Right. So that messaging i think has to change and you know, again, ill just go back and say that or be trading better staffing and also dont, you know, going down to the. Busy border and going to central america, i dont think really accomplishes a lot. I think, speaking the American People about this more directly with. All right, well let me thank you both veteran journalists and authors, ferris dockman of the New York Times, and tom nichols of the atlantic magazine. Thanks for these articles and thanks for joining us today at your famine. So whats the bottom line . America has a major immigration ulcer thats getting worse and worse. Hundreds of thousands of people a month are fleeing their homes in latin america and trying to get into the United States. Some di trying, some are beaten rapes traffic. Some just need a job and others are trying to escape the impunity in their own countries. Either way, theyre driven by desperation. Otherwise they just would never pick up their families and go through this ordeal. There are no good answers. Nations must control their borders, or guess what . They seem to be nations at the same time, there is a humane way to deal with the problem. And thats certainly not what we saw on the ruthless exploitation of refugees for political purposes. Putting random people on buses in plains and sending them off to random places where they have no connections. Really. The u. S. Has never been able to tackle this issue in a lasting logical way. Now the political right has been an issue to gain traction. And now congress, in my view on a bipartisan basis, needs to invest in real solutions. And thats the bottom line. Ah, an anti semitism is of evil under a labor government. It will not be tolerated in any form. What . So ever. Beneath the surface lies the dark, aside in british politics, the labour files are too on al jazeera the u. S. Is always of interest to people. All right, the world people Pay Attention to what we call here, and ill just, he was very good at bringing the news to the world from here. I am very delighted to speak to them all africa mode. They are the continents brightest legal students, putting our minds against the best means in africa would really be interesting to see how when missouri gathered together for tournament, unlike any other conflict from what is happening linux. But to me, i am, we can cut on human and peoples rights is now in session. Witness africa on al jazeera ah Dominic Clark and all the top