Thats why this conflict will spill into those countries and will not be confined to. So then, the majority of the fight has come from the neighboring countries. The danger off, this is a mess of humanitarian, just asked it throughout the whole region. Not just been. Sit down, is it not that kids . Yes, most certainly this war may spill into other countries and may present security and safety in the region. You know, sizes enjoyed bidens, Household Travel to the state of michigan on choose a to join. Striking almost i work is on the picket line. The 1st of a single tiny strikes that americas 3 Biggest Car Companies are expanding is ready for us as a short protest. As of the goal is to avoid a injuring, at least a 31. 00 palestinians. Theyve been demonstrating against, as well as the closure of a voted crossing. And the tech spike is where the settlers, these ready army is also launched as strikes on the strip injuring to people. You know, site has moved from gauze. So the air strikes that a targeted or above, the 3 observation points belonging to him, as israel says, came in response to the incendiary balloons. Thats where set towards israel, by the protesters. Uh, protesting uh long because it is really uh, borders. Uh now at least 2 people where uh, injured in those uh, air strikes and artillery shells on those uh military or on those observation points is what was problem is that benjamin s. And you know, who says his government is on the verge of making a peace, still with saudi arabia. Space. Have you, in general, Assembly Netanyahu towards what potential normalization agreement, but without any clear indication of an end to the policy. And you know, if the patient, the sidelines towards out is there is next to and you can keep up on out, is there a dont com how do states control information controlling the narrative dominating the media . How does the narrative can pull Public Opinion and norma spite, it might not be the most important story about china of today. But thats what the public attention to. How is citizenship . Listen, we played in the story. The listening post, i fixed the media. We dont cover the news, we cover the way the news is covered, the fine change phase un headquarters this week, well lead as a gathering in new york for the 78 un general assembly. Among them is the dutch Prime Minister mockery to his leading his countrys delegation for the last time of the 13 years and power the netherlands longest. Subbing 5 minutes to is leaving office for the dispute about immigration. The lead to the collapse of his Coalition Come on. This edition of told to alger 0 will be examining roots has political and diplomatic legacy is known to be a resilient operator with a nickname test along the prime. And as the netherlands mock route to talks throughout the month route to a Prime Minister of the kingdom with an edmunds. Thank you for talking to alex and sarah. Thank you for having me. You are the 2nd longest serving leader in the European Union that youll the longest ever Prime Minister in your country, vanessa. That unless youve done 4 different coalition governments, youve got the nickname, i believe teflon mock, because youve managed to survive for so long this time that youve decided not to try and form another coalition government, youre gonna send down why. Ive now done this for 13 years and uh, the government was not able to continue in july because we have some difficult political issues around migration. And then of course i have to make up mind what i wanted to run again for a fish durham. And i decided after certain, yes, it is also the time to do something else. Not every country, of course has a parliamentary system. But when you look at the parliamentary systems, you look at leaders like you insulted book, no 8 years in the u. K. Margaret, sacha 1120 blat. 10 australia. John, how is 11 joan credit here in canada . 1070 the children trumps is i think the be you back home just in years more of a co im as soon as i just got it. Its 16 years. Absolutely. Its a natural time for this and is it you get tons of the job . Well that they get tired of you. I think they get tired of me. Thats why i did not just get tired of to jump it. I felt somehow and it is difficult to thats a gives you an intellectual explanation is also a bit of a gut feeling thats when the government have to step down. And i was thinking thats weekends after the friday night when things went wrong. What can i do . And on the sunday morning, i must say there was this a sort of activity where i came to the conclusion. Lets, lets stop and do something else. And then lets just take some time the lecture on november. Then you have to form a new government, so you werent, youre still stuck with me for some time. Now in the netherlands, you have a problem entry system as we say. But you also have a system which is built on coalitions. We have Something Like some other countries, you have a policy in the system, not the 1st post post system will ask you about that sort of system because it means that you rule with a cabinet. Thats definitely people who are your political bibles. How difficult is that sometimes to confide in people to work with people very closely and then moments like to that very publicly pronouncing you . Yes, but, but basically we have, we have done things like vision and then those for over a 1000 years uh with the mountains as a country house, if it comes to below sea level. So you always have to negotiate. We have to build a dikes or how to keep the country dry, have to keep dr. Feet. And that means a constant tradition of negotiations for listening and trying to get to compromises. So with this in, in our tradition and, and this was a for particle relation. We have months of the conversation before we got there until 2 of over 20 parties and Government Environment for and government. But if its, if it works, and then once hes one of the richest countries in the world, we are, we have to have the most happy children in the world. Number one, we are number 5 in terms of innovation. Were also rich countries in the world. So its, its delivering, the system is different, the collapse of youll coalitions you just said was about the issue of migration, i think about uniting a refugee families. I dont wanna go into the details of what happened in the netherlands. I want to talk about that big issue. It is because these woods migration migrants refugees asylum seekers. Theyve become the most talks woods and your pin politics. What do you do about this . This problem is not going to go when were back in 2015 trip. 16 where we have to huge share in crisis and we were holding the rotating presidency in 2016. Were able to close the deal with jerky and greece as you opinion on how to basically handle and control the flow of stream references coming into your desktop. Successful at the moment for your beck, almost at the same numbers as we have some 2015 chapter 16. And i believe that is not sustainable. So you have to work on all fronts of the same time, particularly of course, with companies in africa. How to make sure that they are able to keep the people there in a safe place of course and, and in, in conditions which are acceptable. But we also have to work on the board if youll be union and within the European Union, we need to have a form off, lets say that we are helping each other and, and, and luckily were, were moving in the right direction. But also its a national level, you do need to do stuff and that is where everyone was able to get to an agreement because this difficult issue is the one that is fueling the fall, right . Which, you know, its a great a and there was a problem with the far right in europe and beyond. Europe is also the issue. I think most people would say it was a major factor in the u. K, leaving the your opinions. Yeah. And there was more to say that migration coming out of boat and showed the, the internal european migration and the females of people within the your, which was a big factor. I think in 2016 when you k voted yes to leave your opinion and you know that things still think that was very unfortunate and has not helped you but also has not healthy. Okay. Um but okay, that is not the case. And in the itself, when we do not provide water, if people will bring to sent for if the politicians are not support finding the right policies to deal with the issue was then people might move to the more the parks on the french. And i think it does, my ambition was my parts, and that was the main central high level of party that has to be those parties which provides the policies in a decent way to deal with these big issues. People look to make a distinction between the politically persecuted who can come in and the economic migrants, but its really not that clear cost is it . There are lots, there are places in the world, but life is just unbelievable. Right . Yes. But thats kind of the reason for us to den host you. Thats impossible. So we have to be very clear and make sure that the only taking a migrant references were really a fleeing from war, from persecution, but persecution because they are gay or whatever. The reason is that they are fresh recruited in their own country. And we cannot take steps, people who are clearly only coming based on economic grounds. I understand what they are doing. But if you do the same with news you want to, i think i will try the same. But at the same time, it understands that others will try to keep me from doing that. And in the end, it is not good for africa, for example, because you were of many young, tentative people leaving africa. Theres not good for the you because were not able to taking all these references. Thats impossible. Let me give you one example of kind of stone. What would you say to a family from last kind of stone, who wanted to come to the netherlands because they are having a miserable life . And ive got a son, and the reason that having a miserable life in pots is down to the policies of nato countries. Like the netherlands, but shape the last 20 years, and thats gonna start. Well, 1st of all, of course, it is one of my big creek rich deputy of not being able over the last 20 years to stabilize afghanistan. Despite the enormous efforts, the nato, and many natural factors in total 50 countries have been involved in the ive gotten some efforts to create some stability in this country and some economic prosperity. We have at one stage, 5000000 children and women children, young girls in education who are not allowed to enter education before. So we make progress. But we have not been able to to maintain that. And if somebody tries to get to the electronic dentist and of course its all based on a case by case basis, whether you are eligible for to become on those items secrets, lots of to meet with the sides. In the end of this, a system which will decide whether you come from a country or a system or a background or a particular situation, which makes it possible for you to become a refugee. Your country was one of the founding members of the European Union. The venue locks belgian netherlands left through bug with that as the Building Block that started old in the war and the average of 600 within the you use the pretty firm on your values which are free trade liberal values. And youre very frugal with the spending. We know that fuel position as you now see the you of to 13 year is going to those e u summit. So theres a new lead us. Whats wrong with the what most needs were full. I think we have to speed up the Decision Making process. But for personally i really made the journey when i started 02 years ago for me to you was 1st of all money, the currency. And the enter. The market. Being a writer sends a little politician free markets. This was for me, the crucial part of to you having moved to the stages in those last certain years, i came to the conclusion that the issue was also about safety. Not in a sense like nature was providing the defense side of safety and protection. But the effect that you are not alone in an, in stable world. The netherlands being a very post prescription, but also a small country that youre in venice as other countries in strong structure. So it is, it is a, this markets but also a collective security and the nature was providing the same. And thats really one of to develop into my thinking over the years, having more moved to the center of to you. Then i was when i started doing this job. But the structure is do they need changing . I mean, every country has a commission, which means you have this cumbersome cabinet. Yeah, 7 commission is the wrong 27, real jobs. Know that that is a problem. There are many of you adjustment dont 27. The next to you votes and large. Further, you would have some countries in the restroom, bulk them through a bunch of drawing. Of course we have to be bates about mold of and ukraine, who volunteer joining somebody in the future as sort of main steps to get it was from germany on us. We started to process with a court group of companies in the you are discussing, how can we improve the internal workings of people being uni and particularly because we know that in the not too distant future people have. And larchmont, and then we have to make sure that so that we are ready. Now you all the 2nd longest serving leader in the you . The longest serving is victor old bob . Yes. Of hungry. In 2021. When hungry was introducing a law, which was seen as an t l t b t. You said hungry has no business being in the European Union anymore. This hungry share the core values of the you do think, well, im afraid not whole which and for me, the l g b t r a q a plus rights are key. If we use, we hold dear our key for me because the issue is not, is also a community of values. The nato. Nato is also a organization based on shared values of democracy would of law uh, the equality of men and women that it doesnt matter from where you come. Whats your face is that your welcome to join and our societies. If youre there on legal basis and adult stage, and particularly thats, thats eligible junko a plus develop into hungry. I really was challenging what was happening. Let me ask you about another country that for nearly a quarter of the century, as said it was going to join the you as a kinds of the country took the guess present. 0 one said this week here in new york, if needed, we will part ways with the you. Do you think took it has a place in the you or do you think thats why were here . Is this about the process and we have to be very precise, infinity in 2004. The easily side is collectively and unanimously to open the accession. Negotiations are still key. Obviously this is a very difficult process because on many issues we still differ. Wister kia and as long as the developments inter key, you have not gone in the right direction for them now to join you. But at the same time, i think we have to follow the process. If youre able to make the necessary for, im sure you can make next step. But as after peer to do that, we all know what is necessary. I do not for cedric here to join you in the foreseeable future. Maybe never. And therefore, it is also important that you have this new structure of to you being a political community. What else . The ideas, amount of, of my call cancelled, or you liked it . Yes it is, but yeah, its just basically the ego plus uh, the other countries being part of the european realm. Im okay now and okay. Also joining uh, accept of course restaurant and that our booth with all the other countries are part of this structure. And turkey is a very valuable member of nato, ends, my bilateral relations with other home, our strong deduction to p relations are strong and important to me, but on the question of accession to you, we cannot negotiate on the fundamentals there. I think we are still a long way off. Then youll time is your pin, nita, your pin. Nita, one thing has changed into political discourse. They used to be traditional media, Television Like this radio, newspapers, we will the gatekeepers of information to the public just now. Anyone can publish in a thing. Are you worried about the real world affects . It says, no, because my view on this issue, 1st of all, that social media only have an index when it reaches to mass media. So when guys like you, ill just eat or cnn are not reporting what is happening on the social media. Theres not reaching the mass people in our countries. And you as a responsible journalist who will always make sure that there is steps journalistic. I to making sure that the reporting of the social media has some sense. And secondly, i see some of my colleagues really being bothered by what was happening on social media. And i tell them, do your job, do not see the whole days where and try to find out what on social media people are thinking of or about what you were saying about. It is not death relevant relevance is that you do your job. Whats the best of your intentions with through the best of your knowledge . And then to be very much open to the media, to reports on that, and to be questions. And, of course, also scrutinized. Lets turn now to the war and ukraine. Youd be one of the staunchest supporters of ukraine and presents, and lets get you one of the 1st countries to offer f sixteens to ukraine. The worry that as time goes on ukraine ward is not always the top of the headlines anymore. And increasingly, maybe some of your partners will start to reduce the financial, a military contributions. So there is death risk. And at the same time, i am not too worried because what i sense when i speak was people in the netherlands or was my colleagues seem to work in the us. But also as many colleagues in africa, asia, and less than america. People mc just understands. This is not only about ukraine. Yes. First of all, its about requiring that this is the russian aggression, more guns too great. But this is also about 2 other things. Values that you do not insights, another country. And that is about collective security defect dept rush. I will not stop this. You cant show for my country. For example, the melons, our safety. Our defense is directly impacted by what is happening in ukraine. And people understand that when you became Prime Minister in 2010, russia was still part of the g h. It seems a very long time ago. If i could ask you to recall that, what were your thoughts about putin then im going to use think about him now, and it has completely changed to us in a sense. Ive never really trusted the guy. But at the same time, we were doing business with him because to thinking was and here i would like to defend america was now under considerable criticism in germany for her restaurant politics. I think she did the right thing. Of course, we knew that with books and we didnt have to ideal liter, no rush of it is equal to change that the rest of it was not moved from its spots on the map. Close to your be part of your to or for it to be sure to some extent because we are different like they didnt like points in the particularly after the crimea invasion and the whole minsk court which well so the go shared with in 2014 is most crucial to keep the dialogue going with fulton clear, they shouldnt have, not being successful should maybe be more of a push back to put in, in that pivotal year of 2014, when russia annexed ukraine and then went into east and ukraine. And of course, very important feel country what happened on the 17th of july that you know, and then i make 17 killed 298 people shut down on that plane by russia. A 193 of those people would touch the sixtys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. The point. Yeah. Should have been thats not taught to put in anymore. No. I think that would have been the wrong decision. No after once he gets on the 20 in the night of the 22nd and the 23rd of february of 2022. I mean, that was the moment it stops. And wed have to cook squared. Be a fairly best ukraine. But in 2014, in march, when this thing happens in crimea, which was of a different scale of what happens in 2022, i believe, and foster right policy and the right thing to do to try wisdom in agreement with the peace negotiations happening at that moment to somehow reign in russia in a broader your be in line of thinking. And clearly we have not being successful. And of course then it may, 17 happens and often thats the restaurant thats relations have never be like they were before. And of course, its 2020 to there are no relations annual alert. Lots of people are still debating why put in made the decision to finally invade fully invade in ukraine last year. Some believe it was possibly because he was in bold and by the weakness of the west. Can i give you 2 examples . One, we go back to syria and president obamas red line on chemical weapons when they were used by side in 2015 the un and the o. P c w, which is based in the netherlands, both confirmed that had happened and accommodate nothing. And russia then into the war in syria. And as weve seen in ukraine at bottom civilians at bump hospitals at phone schools. Was that a mistake not doing something at that point . Well, let me also 100 to 2011. When the booking agreed was a Security Council resolution olivia and i think he with some um any he has something going for him. Many of us criticized what happened afterwards and how to invest then related to libya and effect that he had reason to believe that he was not dealt with in a trustworthy manner. Because what we thought was because of a no fly zone in his view became an ad will. Thats exactly it. And so i think as things started to shower, it gets worse from 2011 on which of course direct line not being helpful is not helpful. But go back to 2022. So when poaching invaded ukraine we, we do not know what exactly mustang out in his mind. It will always be guessing. But if he thought that we would be not united, that we would again say ok, this is acceptable. And lets have some nice stokes and some d. And lets try to solve this. He has been completely wrong. And at this moment, he must think that he made a huge mistake by doing that, and that he seized the rest being completely united, including united states, bipartisan, including the hold of nato and European Union. And i think that is a marvelous situation and not so of course, dissertation ok, but the fact that we are still united. The 2nd example i want to raise with you how just 6 months before put in made his decision to invade. And thats what happened enough kind of stuff that pulled out from afghanistan and of all of those people who felt alongside nato in the us. They felt it was a betrayal put in watch that he will. So watch the chaos that pull out. Do you think that might have encouraged him or . I dont think so. I. I called and mentioned that the red line, sir. Yep. 2013 cool. Just play some role in his mind. I dont seem to pull out from that kind of stuff because intelligence worldwide. Well said, it would take months before to tony, but wed be able to take off. And of course we were a basically a and gulf, but effect thats in depth. On the weekends, on the 15th of august, things move to an extended rate. Its in a way we did not anticipate and then we have to and will freaking of course. Thats why i say this was a terrible situation. But i would still think that played a big role in important thinking. Thats why much. But at the same time, what a terrible mistake he made and how perhaps we can be there to invest, is united. And we have to stay united even if things go to get um, not as positive as at the moment for ukraine, if they would have to add the setbacks and the battlefield particularly then i would argue we have to stay with them with regard to that and want to use time here in the us, there was a president ial election and potentially it could be president trump, to another republican who decides to completely append the claim policy. Does that while were, you could you go to load . I must say thats. Im really impressed by the, by parsons the ship was in the us senate. Well, natal, i remember the beach and us when trump was president , all nato, a membership, etc. But has always been a, a rule based supports in the senate, and particularly in the, in the front of Nations Committee on the necessity for us to stay in full, not because of historical reasons in the 2nd world war. But also because if russia would gain more influence in, for example, restaurant your, this india and also jeopardize us secure to interest and the same goes for you. And when you look now and be its in, in the house of representatives. And i spoke with 6 members of the house which helped me presents disc 2 weeks ago to visit the hague bipartisan, a Police Report for a while for your drawing bots. The decision rest with one man and the commander in chief, the president. That could be donald trump, one your pay leader a spoke to in recent days that the return to power of donald trump would be an auto disaster. Do you agree to us as a democracy . Show the united states, besides in a self one way who will rule and run this country. And the one who is chosen in november next year and then takes over in january the year after is the one we will have to be on the dense for base, as ive said before. What is that one is not dancing with regard to you claim. And then then i still think that the advice is around that new president depart partisanship in the house. We presented the vision and the senate. So in the whole, congress will help us to make sure that we will stay the course for 13 years. Youve lived a life of great pressure, a huge tempo, your living, your life. Whats gonna happen next, because the jobs that youll name is being linked to, you know, this is been all the papers is nato secretary general. Yeah, insulting books stands down next year. Well give you time for nice rest and do that job. Is it a jump that you would consider if you were approach at the moment, im really focused on the jump im doing now, but youre also passionate about the war and ukraine. And if you would like to the secretary general, you would still be able to play a role that its something you would not ruling out to the state of the states. Im really thinking about everything. But uh, and obviously after 3 or 3 years, youre thinking should i somehow apply this experience somewhere else . And at the same time, im also thinking very csp of moving or making a complete a change of direction. And all these roles, like nato and, and in the you, there are so many talented politicians to take over. I would not be work to work finally and you are still relatively young. So its nothing to bitch request you and thank you for the 56. Lets say you can also use the survey but, but, but how do you want to be remembered the dutch Prime Minister . What is your legacy . I hope people will think that dr. Different best that are try to get people to get her on a common common issues that we were in in a very difficult situation. Europe and then that wasnt 2010. I employment at the moment. Unemployment is low. We have a huge shift borrowing requirements, and now the states finances are in a much better position. And it means that youre able also to spend money on defense on raising the poor, out of poverty, etc. So i hope people say he did his best. He made mistakes and thoughts here is also good after 15 years. Thats he is now doing something else, not route to Prime Minister in the netherlands. Thank you so much for talking about the sense of belonging. We are very close knit community. Everybody knows everybody, and the every day he real keeping communities together. This is the same sort of universe set of my universe. H as e it up is, its scotlands out there a headboard and meets those fighting to see that 5 and his way of life in the face of its population. A sense of community on a jersey to the a gray morning, the head of sea dogs willing counsel entails out 0. The complex in this country could spread to neighbor nations. The name wrong, call this out. Is there a live from the whole . So coming up as americas also work is expand the strikes us present job id says