Transcripts For ALJAZ Talk 20240703

Thing in the west bank. I dont think i realized the extent to which what i would come to see on the ground with really shocked me in for a finding a new documentary called israel isnt costs a critical eye on the growing generational divide among americans use on the question of kind of start with many young people increasingly becoming critical of israel. Im the less supportive of scientists. You see what non democracy looks like. What weve been told is that the only way that use can be safe is palestinians are not. The more i learned about that, the more i came to see that as a lie, its a film by jewish people about jewish people and the state of israel about the fight for the freedom and the quality of palestinians while also fighting mc semitism. But despite multiple attempts by some jewish groups to have it screenings, council to join me over the next ha files, selves main protagonist, somebody zimmerman, and produce a co director or an accident. So the minds of women have an accident. Welcome to tool to help just 1st thing, congratulations. Base with you on the film was at the premier here in london. That was a q all the way down the street. I dont know if i can start with you and ask you what you were hoping to achieve with this. So were really trying to show a mirror for to our own community and really show our community, the progress of American Jewish community that were not friends, that were not a tiny proportion americans use. Were actually a mass of proportion. And then our views are incredibly humane. And are actually aligned with the Jewish Values of social justice and fighting oppression. So i think were really trying to show our own community that were not alone, that were not friends, that we are just as jewish and anybody else. And in fact, we are doing this work because of our jewish history and because of our Jewish Values, i think were also trying to show the rest the world, especially palestinians that were behind you, that we are with you. And that again to fight for Jewish Values means to fight for policy and freedom this moment. And lastly, i think our film is also trying to help explain the wider world both why American Jews historically have been. So pro israel, i think, is a lot of confusion about why is there a progressive community. The American Jewish community has historically been so unconditionally pro israel. And i think our film helps explain that. I think im also help show how and why the mass of transformations in our community are occurring as more and more americans use of come into contact with palestinians entitled to the narratives. And realize that we actually empathize with them and sympathize with them intensely. So what is the main for talking to is to one of the main, but that could be in this film. How would you describe the journey that you went on . Because it was by much of personal one. It was one of shattering me and i was, i was absolutely heart broken the when i, you know, 1st encountered the post and in reality, you know, at 1st it began for me as a series of a questions like i was hearing things on my College Campus that just didnt comport with the world view that i was raised with, and theres only so long that you can hear these testimonies but challenge your worldview. And i think everybody has a choice which is either to go deeper into a denial to close yourself off from reality or to face it head on. And to say, what does this actually mean . And what does this mean about the narrative that i currently hold on . It force me to do a lot of deep reevaluation. And how reflective is your personal re evaluation of many of the jews in europe and america when it comes to how they view . Because i mean, i think my story is not unique. Its, as aaron said, this is the story of a generation. I meet people at every single screening who, you know, come up and say, hey, you know, i just spent the last hour and a half sobbing. The stories book, so deeply in my own experience, we hear from people who say this has enabled them to have the painful conversations with their loved ones and the people in their communities. And yeah, we feel we know that this is not actually a unique experience in the Jewish Community. Thats something thats happening to people all around the world. I mean, at least the 1st pretty much off of the fil moment. All nice and went into huge detail about the whole indoctrination process process. So particularly American Jews into being loyal to the state of israel. But why office film seems to wants to do is we claim that sense of jewish identity. So as you suggested, how is it possible to do that without conflating pain, jewish with the actions of the fees ready to go with you . I think, you know, as we talked about, you know, a pack and many other kind of pro is real organizations have really tried to tie jewishness to a piping the pro sinus jewish loveliness. And a lot of these kind of major pro israel organizations in america have really tried to tie jewish this and use them to israel and say that they are essentially the same. So one of our film even says, israel is judy, is them, and judaism is israel. I mean, ive had many people on the center in the center, right. And many people have told us that, that they really believe that these 2 things are linked. And i think what were trying to do is show that ruling over millions of people without basic rights for decades and decades and decades. Is not judaism or southern jewish about it as someone actually said, recently one of our screenings, and actually Many Americans use support israel, or think they support israel because they think is real, is aligned with their values. We often hear narratives of israel being the speaking of democracy, the only democracy in them, at least. Its a amazing place for queer people. These are the narratives were taught. And when we actually see with our own eyes, how israel is true, the power of the mean people both historically are in the knock book and, and the occupation obviously this ongoing genocidal bombardment of gaza. We realized that actually the opposite is true. That is really policies dont align with our Jewish Values at all. And that actually to be jewish in this moment, to fight for our Jewish Values means fighting for the safety and freedom of all people who live in that land, both jews and palestinians. And just adding to what happened just said this, somebody in the message time and time shed by these ready state, is it only israel is able to keep 2 safe . Is there any safe haven . Im how then, is it possible in the making of this film to lift the veil on . Some of these is a physical them foundation rips, you know, given how sensitive these narratives are to these really identity. I mean, i think its clear in this moment that israels actually the most dangerous place in the world to be a jewish person today. You know, every single day when i open my phone and look at instagram, i am seeing the mess. But i grew up with revealed to be lies that israels most moral army that you know, theres really army, is the most moral army in the world that they are not harming civilians every single day. The reality that young people are seeing live stream to our phones just absolutely demolishes those. And thats the israeli militarys conduct in the gaza strip right now. Just demolishes that every single one of those minutes that we were raised on just the drill down into the idea of the, the, the, the, the prominence, the, all the questioning support for these really ministry which is really pretty, came out to and in the field because one of the quotes attributed to the 1st female Prime Minister of israel golden man is often pub power phrase by Benjamin Netanyahu. Is this, if the arabs put down their weapons today, theyll be no more violence if the jews put down their weapons today, they will be no more. Israel something explored in the film, was not state of perpetual readiness by the israeli army. That has led the many ways to the glorification of the idea for just wondering the context of whats happening and cause a whether thats being seen to explain some of the Ministry Activities carried out by this way, the army and got it. Yeah, i mean, i think its a tragedy of jewish history that this idea that to live by the sword in this, you know, 4 to 5 militarize nation state has been sold as a path to safety for so many of our people, when we can see that you know, of course the most endangered people right now are the pallets and in people have gaza. But israeli jews are also not safer. Right now in this situation in which they live in a country thats committing a genocide. And that is in flaming tensions with the entire region. I mean, in what, what world are israeli jews or anyone else made safer . And you know, im really grateful for organizations like breaking the silence who have, who are former testifiers from the idea of who to speak about, you know, every single red line that they cross in terms of their own morality. When theyre told that theyre going to, you know, fight for a battle for the safety of their country. And every day witness that. What that actually means in real time is humiliating and degrading the daily existence of another people making every day life and their and their villages. Um, you know, across the occupied westbank living hell feeling like soldiers are watching you at all times. And of course today, you know, i mean the reports that were seeing coming out of gaza, or just once again there are no red lines. Im every now. But if i could send to you and ask you about the time frame in which this, the so documentary was made because it was started long before the events around the going to type with the 7th. I just wonder with hindsight whether as a filmmaker perhaps you could have gone further and drilling down into the suffering of palestinians to really shine a light on some for i dont places for. And its really what it. Yeah. So our film was began in 2016 and took about 7 years to produce initially we were a very small Production Team just like my co director myself. We eventually got some really amazing producers with palestinian and british jewish producers. And yeah, it was really tricky balance because we are film was really about American Jewish transformation. So what is the primary protecting . This are jewish, but we transform and that transformation occurs because a contact with pallets and decides in policy and stories to palestinians. Obviously, very prominent in the film, but because the main story is on americans with transformation, it was a tricky balance. We really wanted to in a relatively short period of time, try to convey what palace to mean. Life is actually like, um in, you know, under military rule what its like to live your entire life in a wall and off city, in which an 18 year old israeli soldier has complete control over whether you can enter or exit where you live. But yeah, you know, it was a trick call to the call and we didnt end up having a mass amount of time. Want to make really digestible film. So we definitely could have done more to show kind of the horrors that palestinians go through. 7 more show what causes are going through. There is a section to film on garza, but in hindsight we would have actually covered because even more has the, the timing of which this from being released. Taken on a whole new dimension, a whole new meeting significance of the phone today. Yeah. You know, um it came out in february 2023. Um, so a number of months before october 7th will be Just Announced that in our 1st kind of major tour and released our trailer only weeks before october 7th. So it was kind of in the middle you both for people who are looking for resources to learn about the context. What was happening as well as are people who were trying to cancel pro palestinian and progressive jewish speech. What kind of became a lightning rod in that way . And i think also the film kind of resonates to a certain extent because many of the phenomenon we cover in the film had accelerated dramatically since october 7th, especially the phenomenon of labeling any criticism of israel, even if its being done by jews as inherently anti semitic even if its talking about basic facts of reality and also the other phenomenon that is expanded quite dramatically is again, this Massive Movement of dice. Bread used across the world saying not in my name and saying that we are probably jewish. We stand by and with our history and with our ancestors. But what were seeing is doctor, these tell us about the, the attempts to, to, to cancel showings of hell. Theres been many after october 7th, essentially. I think a lot of pro is real. People are looking for something to do and looking for ways to again, you know, fight what they size anti semitism, and number of right when activists going to begin targeting our film and the number of massive email campaigns started telling universities and film that used to cancel our film saying that our film was dangerous to jewish people that it was anti semitic. Even though in most cases it was jewish. Active as groups or jewish leaders, including is really active as some leaders bringing our films to venue. As for to campuses with very ironic sounds. The guys are protecting jews. They were censoring progressive jewish voices. But when universities or venues attempt to cancel our screenings, it was really incredible that both jewish activist and pals to be an activist said absolutely not. Were going to show this film no matter what. So weve had virtually no successful cancellations. We built, weve been able to essentially reverse all of them because progressive to saying what, this is my story. This is literally the story of my life and palestinians also saying, you know, how dare you sense or, you know, critically important palestinian and progressive jewish voices in this moment that are providing context. I hear from College Students all around the country who are as air insides, you know, bringing the phone to campus, allowing them, you know, giving them a, a tool to have these conversations about what is the context that i was missing before you know, to help them make sense of, of this moment because part of what the film is showing is that, you know, there was both a context of deep oppression and injustice, but it existed before october, 7th and also that there have been, you know, these debates and these rising movements of young jews criticizing the Israeli Government for, for years and for decades. So to, um yeah, its been just really tremendously meaningful to again offer people a tool through personal experience and personal narrative to then think about their own transformations and you know, thats what University Campus should be about. Thats it was, its it because of my experience on my College Campus that i was able to undergo the journey that i went through. I remember when i was a College Student that at 1st there were certain things i heard that made me feel very uncomfortable. Even i might have set up the time unsafe because i was really passionately pro israel. And there were a lot of parts of that world view that i had never questioned or interrogated. And it took me a long time of hearing. Again, hearing the stories, testimonies from boston and students that really did not comport with these this rosy narrative that i had of israel, where i was forced to, you know, ask questions or i remember, you know, i, a conversation i once had with a grad student who was actually in his railey and his, i in this too. And he said to me and i said, you know, when you use words like apartheid and ethnic cleansing, they make me really uncomfortable. I feel like youre attacking israel. And he then explained to me that the words, ethnic cleansing and apartheid are actually terms that have, you know, legal and historical meanings that accurately describe things that were happening on the ground. And you know, that totally disarmed me. Because again, i was taught this like deeply empty, intellectual posture to kind of like dismiss these facts and these realities that are really happening on the ground. So i think the 1st thing is, its important to say that, you know, activism is not meant to be comfortable. Oppression is not comfortable. And for many people that you know, being confronted, i might not initially change them in that moment. But activism over time can, can force people to face things that they dont want to face and can lead to transformations. The other thing i want to say is that an american College Campus, or im sorry, a University Campus anywhere should be a place of learning. And its so deeply concerning to me that weve seen, you know, administrators both in the us and then other places who are caving to this pressure to sensor posted in activism. And i like spaces to actually learn because that is what a university is supposed to be about. And were seeing in the us, i can speak to this. Specifically, were seeing the way that pro israel group are finding alliances, building alliances. But some of the most, you know, racist and anti Democratic Forces in america that want to ban, not just the teaching of, you know, critical history about israel palestine, but also teaching of critical history about america. And its such a dangerous precedent thats being set if you, you know, allow the censorship of teaching and activism on this issue. Whats to say that there you cant do that on any other issue. I wonder if i mean, if i can pick up on a really important point that simone has raged based this about how fractured jewish and opinions um. One of the things that youll feel really focused on an achieved is to show the shoes divisions, particularly geographically and generationally. Most importantly, when it comes to the see to the views and opinions around the state of israel. And obviously you, your film through a spotlights on, mentioned that already american israel, Public Affairs committee, you a back up just repeated the powerful pro site as to should all be in the us. The reason of course, the tendency outside the Jewish Community to forget that there are deep divisions. Tell us more about it. Totally. Yeah, i think the pro israel kind of like right in america has really tried to perpetuate the meth and the success weve done. So for many decades that we are united on israel, that the American Jews by large, almost all of us support is real unconditionally or almost unconditionally. Whats ironic is that, thats not true at all. Its the opposite. In fact, we are a deeply polarized and divided community, and thats a much more honest and accurate picture of where the American Jewish community is pulling from 2021 thats widely cited on the right and the left shows that a of all American Jews, that 25 percent. Think israels in apartheid state, this could be in the crime apartheid. We would a younger and used about 40 percent 40 percent of jews under 40 think israel spend the crime of apartheid. Apartheid is a very strong word. I think a very accurate word, but a 40 percent of young jews think israels in apartheid state. I think were probably already at the point where 50 percent of Young Americans use realize something is deeply wrong. How is real estate, the Palestinian People . Both historically and in the present moment. So i do think that we might actually be the majority of Young Americans use already. Were still them in the minority amongst all jews. But i think again, what were trying to also do is help actually paint a much more honest and accurate picture of our community, which is one that is not united, but actually the opposite. Incredibly divided and incredibly polarized over this issue to somebody. Did you think your findings were put choose outside israel off from ever wanting to lift the challenging question, but Benjamin Netanyahu is often i suggested that one of the biggest, existential threats to the state of israel may be know im us dont. If im a job, not a rod, no arab state surrounding israel, but a reluctance by young choose not to want to go that. I mean, its, you know, weve seen time and time again pro israel organizations and individuals actually admitting that what they see as one of the biggest threats are, you know, critical jewish choices. We saw in the last election cycle. You know, a pac poured millions of dollars into defeating and 11 a former synagogue president , you know, very active jewish leader in detroit, michigan because of his relationship with congresswoman rashida to live. And so i think what that speaks to, to me is that there is a deep hostility to the idea that jews can co exist in multi racial democracies and coalitions and part of what is so scary to me as a jewish person in this moment is the in the way that pro Israel Politics often set jewish communities apart from people who can be our natural allies. You know, in this moment were seeing all around the world the, the actions of these really military and flaming not only anti semitism, but also in flaming. You know, as long as the phobia and anti air of racism around the world and people around the world, we should be committed to taking those issues on together. Seeing that jews and most ones being attacked industries, anywhere in the world right now is this is a threat to the safety of all of our societies. And so its, this is also part of why its so important to us to publicly challenge this conflation of all jews with the state of israel. You know, thats why its so considering to me the President Biden repeatedly says that without israel, theres not a jew in the world who is safe. American jew should be safe because were americans, the job of the american president to protect all people in the country that we live in. Not to be sending bach bombs and guns to a foreign military. It was to drill into that a little bit more if you dont mind because of face to face is happening here. The u. K. At the moment as to whether or not you guys should stop sending, sending um is ro, we know that spain, the netherlands, the belgium and canada stopped handing over to us. So it continues to send billions of dollars in weapons as well. So to does gemini does not make the world a safer place or more dangerous place, which is absolutely a more dangerous place for jews. You know, um i recently heard uh theres a ton music passage. Its like a a saying from the rabbis, who said that, you know, i love without, without accountability is not real love. And you know, i just wish that more people in our community would investigate that idea. What is this notion of love for a place with no accountability right now, we should all be yearning desperately for the israeli military. And these really government to be held accountable for these, you know, crimes that are being committed against the Palestinian People. A world in which of any government, any military can massacre people at this scale demolish entire cities at this scale shows such callous disregard for human life. And there to be no consequences that should terrify all of us the world, the precedent that has been created by this government being allowed to act in this way. And on top of that to say that all of these horrors are being committed and the name of safety for our people, for jewish people, i so deeply believe that, that and dangers choose around the world associating us with this absolutely reckless. You know untethered government that is showing such callous disregard for human life. I know the both of you may database as a result of this feeling. I mean you both being cold anti semitic older youre both judge. And then last thought slow. They repeated multiple times in the film, self hating to every now what if i can start by asking you, what does it like to be called a self hating to mean, luckily for us, we know how absurd and ridiculous it is. Again, my family fled violent anti semitism. My family has a long history of pride in our jewish faith and our jewish history, and inviting for social justice in america and in other countries with my family has lived. So i think it just shows that, you know, the pro is real right, is not actually willing to engage with the material that our film talks about. And that the movements that our phone cover is actually, you know, talk about what they are more interested in doing is totally trying to deal with the demise us preventing that. Were either again still feeding jews or not really, jews at all. And by doing that, by trying to deal with that in mind, is that still fully, theyre basically saying thats all we have to fight against you. They dont actually have good arguments against what were talking about. So they treat us with lawyers, they call us names and we knew that what happened when we made this film that never gets less painful to be told. You know that youre a traitor to your own people. I can just say that, you know, its because i was raised in a community in which, you know, deep intellectual inquiry and critical education was prioritized. But when i learned these things about this role i, i kept wanting to learn more and i got and want it to be part of these, you know, a rigorous and critical exploratory conversations about what all of this month. And im, im sorry that its inconvenient to some people that you know, the conclusions that ive come to didnt fit with the political views that they wanted me to have towards the end of the. So i think its fair to say that was an attempt at healing and we witnessed a jewish rabbi in a therapeutic circle and nice talking to other g sharing. What it is like to feel like an outside a. Do you feel that these are opinions off fringe opinions of a left field or they mainstream . So what i mean, these are our opinions that has been pushed to the fringes of our community. There have been very active attempts, as weve already talked about to you know, smear, anybody who dares to criticize the Israeli Government to stand with palestinians as a trader, as an authentically jewish as self hating. But we also know, as aaron mentioned from pulling from the movements in the streets, we see these movements growing. We see jews out in the streets, you know, calling for us. These firing guys are calling for posting in freedom both because of our Jewish Values. And because of our commitment to our own community, were doing it because we see that as also part of the way to fight anti semitism. To break this publish perception, but the horrors that were seeing and gaza are being done in our names. And every single day that movement is growing as more and more people are facing the horrors that are being committed by israel, the, the reality of what this country has become and are speaking out and are joining the movements before we go. I want to ask one question to both of you and as they said, and i wonder if i can start with the able to ask you in the process of making this film, whether there is a listing, the scene experience that used to be hopeful about. I think im hopeful because of the Massive Movement of American Jews and dias bridge hughes, who are fighting for justice both where they live, as well as in israel, palestine, and incredibly inspired also by the incredible solidarity and the growing movements of both jews and palestinians working together across the world who are fighting for safety and freedom for all people between the river and the sea. This is not going to be easy again, you know, the 1st thing we need obviously is the ceasefire. But also again, im also incredibly encouraged by pulling were seeing about who wants a ceasefire. Again, no reckoning pro is real, orange in america even said calling for a cease fires. Have to submit a polling shows over a majority of americans use of 50 percent wanted ceasefire. Only about a 3rd of americans use want the war to continue. So even though the larger pro israel organizations claim to represent us that their claim on leadership is going away and people are beginning to realize that they actually do not represent mainstream American Jewish communities. And that means from American Jewish communities are progressive. We do support social justice. We do support equal rights both where we live, as well as the israel palestine, and somebody share those hopes. I think for me, im taking a lot of hope from being and this growing this minute from seeing people who are speaking out, seeing people taking, taking action for the 1st time, taking risk theyve never taken before confronting their communities, confronting the institutions around them. And so we can only hope that there will be accountability for these kinds and the opportunity to rebuild to mind zimmerman or an accident. Thank you for talking to. How does the now is the time to be direct . The creation of the humanitarian crisis is a tactic. We do not is it was a policy that we, it was from us, particularly that was very upfront on, out of there the the, the mission of a thing. So she needs this, you know, this is this Christmas Helen female surgery and need a weekend and of course, the spirits in the face of it. This is the time to get a a and the time to meet the the risk it from the ruins in guns. The young girl is pulled the safety of these ran a minute to run some fits of tax on the roof. The hello. Im don. Jordan, this is don, just a run line from dell also coming up the us house of representatives approved the 95000000000. 00 package that includes military aid for you. Christ brains on fonts just