And mark. Were here on the border oversee. We would like to be inside, but that has been impossible. Over the last 12 months since the military coup her, the board is, have been very tight. Although here we have seen over the course of the last couple of weeks, tens of thousands of people flooding across from me and my trying to escape fierce fighting earth that has been taking place. Now that has come down in the last week or so. And the ties have certainly not being keen to welcome people, those who have come across had been urged to go back once. The fighting in the immediate area has settled down, though you are secretary of state will continue talks with russia as foreign minister and later about the crisis in ukraine. Though Un Security Council has met to discuss the issue, russia and the u. S. Have blamed each other for escalating tension. The u. S. Is designated cuts are a major non nato ally. This follows a meeting between president joe biden, casara, amir, a shift. I mean, been hammered than fanny at the white house on monday. They discussed issues including iran, gas supplies, to europe, and the situation in afghanistan. U. K Prime Minister boys, johnson has apologized after an inquiry into government events during locked down, found there were serious failures in leadership on judgment. The report says, some events should not have been allowed to happen. The full report is expected to be released once a Police Investigation ends. The french ambassador to molly is being expelled from the country. This comes after frances foreign minister described the african countries Transitional Government as illegitimate and out of control. On monday, mollys government announced the ambassador has 72 hours to leave. Relations with france have steadily deteriorated since military to in 2020. You are up to date with the headlines on al jazeera up next is inside story. Thanks for watching. Bye bye. For now. In a series of original documentaries or 0 correspondence, explore the stories which have marked their lives and careers. Gabrielle is on the cover, the tragic story of to wake forest activists, brutally killed fighting the devastation brought about by loggers and ranchers. Returning to the amazon, gabriel learned how to campaign for Sustainable Development brought them on a collision course with those who sought to profit from the forest destruct. Audio correspondence ah, facing the music spotify act, uncovered 19 misinformation. Artists have been pulling their songs from the streaming service, furious at its leading podcast, both on his use on the corona virus. How to companies tread the line between potentially harmful lies and healthy debate. This is inside story. Ah hello and welcome to the program. Im danny navigator in dell home, boycotted by musicians and feeling anger from listeners and doctors. Spotify has announced a new policy on covered 19 misinformation. These streaming giant says itll put content advisories before any, if its podcast that discussed the pandemic. But it wont remove the episodes at the center of the storm. They were hosted by coven 19 vaccine skeptic. Joe rogan, whos also advocated the potentially dangerous use of a life stock medication to treat the virus. One of the things that spot, if i wants to do that, i agree with is that at the beginning of these controversial podcasts, like, specifically ones about coded is to put a disclaimer and say that you should speak with your physician and that these people and the opinions that they express are contrary to the opinions of the consensus of experts, which i think is very important. Sure. Have that on there. Im very happy with that. Also. I think if theres anything that ive done that i could do better is have more experts with differing opinions, right after i have the controversial ones, i would most certainly be open to doing that. He may be happy, but spotify decision falls, sort of what rogans the tractor is, wanted about 270 scientists and medical professionals wrote to the company demanding that it stopped the podcast, or from spreading what they describe disco with 1900 full suds. While singer songwriter is neil young and Joni Mitchell pulled their music from the platform, gaining support from other entertainment entertainers, as well as the World Health Organization. So in a blog explaining his announcement, spotify chief executive daniel act wrote, its important to me that we dont take on the position of being content sensor while also making sure that there are rules in place on consequences for those who violate them. Ah, here i guess to discuss all of the 20th and washington d. C. Is courtney ranch, was a journalist and fellow at the u. C. L. A. Institute for Technology Law and policy, and barcelona, jeffrey lazarus. Hes the head of the Health SystemsResearch Group at bar slona institute for global health, and in the city of master catalina, go on to associate professor of law and technology at trust university. Welcome to the program. Thanks so much for your time with us, jeffrey. Over to you 1st, i know that you said that we need to focus on providing explanations and guidance to combat false information. So spotify, as weve been reporting, has since that its working to add advisory warnings to any podcast that discusses code 19 for you. Is that a satisfactory response by sorts modify . I think its a start to provide verified information, evidence based information. But i think we need to distinguish between what spotify calls as controversial compared to what is simply wrong and false. I mean, there are different kinds of information. Theres misinformation, theres this information. And when to modify, allows information that is directly dangerous, like, arguing that vaccines for curve at 19 or not safe or to take unproven treatments than i think that that passes a certain line. A Courtney Spotify has said that in the past that it has removed a more than 20000 podcast episodes that cover cove in 1900 since we started the pandemic, but it didnt, with rogan the most popular podcast host with a report, a 200000000. 00 downloads a month and, and theyre also paying him 100000000. 00. Why are they not touching joe rogan as a simply too powerful to touch money on him and he has. Mm hm. 10000000 viewers. I think per episode as is, but ive read, but i think theres something important here to think about is, you know, joe rogan definitely had some problematic gusts on. But whats pretty shocking is that spot, if i did not have a contact, moderation policy, publicized on its website that it did not have a missed or disinformation policy. 2 years into epidemic. 4 years after weve seen, you know, the Cambridge Analytic a scandal, you know, all, all platforms that host User Generated Content and which post their own, you know, content that theyre paying hosts to provide, should have content, moderation policies. There should be clearly laid out. And they need to be pro active and thinking about how theyre going to deal with these issues before they become major p. R. Disasters, but also left point out, you know, spotify and fox news have both sided with their extreme hosts. Tucker carlson is also one of the leading purveyors of disinformation and inaccurate information about covered. So, you know, this is not just about spotify, its a, throughout the Mainstream Media important point series, which were going to get into by catalina, just way on in on this for me for a moment, because rogan has insisted that he was quote, interested in telling the truth, and they have an opinion hes referring to the guest that he had on a show. They have an opinion thats different from the mainstream narrative and i wanted to hear what their opinion is. I mean, does he have a points in anyway . So here are what we normally look at when we see this debate, is there the inter narrative around freedom of expression . So, is spotify a Media Company that claims they want to be neutral . And they also want to portray opinions and popularity with very popular with some crowds such as jo grogans and his guest friends is alex jones. But at the same time, also applying for other types of opinions on the platform. And i think that this is something that we really need to think about. So spotify has been generally perceived as this media treme Service Provider streaming Service Provider that has been quite hip and cool, and everyone has been using for music. But actually what we have seen in the past years, and even last year, i think, and in the spring, spotify announced new forms of content monetization. And this is bringing more and more voices to the table. And voices are getting paid and they are getting paid for instance, to a new subscription model that spotify you is using. So is bonafide is now becoming really a Media Company and its just courtney was mentioning. It is very important that they have rules and track that they design rules, and that they also align with the legal rules around the world. Right. So, catalina, how much pressure have social media sites in general . Really been under to tackle misinformation when it comes to coven vaccines throughout the pandemic. Just give us a sense about so i think that misinformation is a very special category because platforms and we see this also with meta, they have been really trying to develop policies very hard policies, or at least according to them, around disinformation. So in here we already see that there is something that i call in my research has a regulatory debt. That basically were putting platforms in this very complicated tension and situation because there between a rock and a hard place. So on the one hand, we want them to take measures and we want them to create their own policies. But on the other hand, the difference is the idea of disinformation. What is that from a legal perspective . Are we speaking about cyber warfare . Are we speaking about the sort of National Security standards that need to be just completely explained better for platforms . So i think that this is a very important moment for regulators to really clarify what kind of information dont we want out there. And i think that this is what jeffrey was mentioning earlier, that some information is just blazingly wrong and some information is controversial. But how do we draw the line and we should do it. I think that perhaps that those are some very essential point jeffrey over to you. I mean, how do you think that we can balance to serve individual liberties versus restrictions that are deemed harmful . Well again, i mean i would go back to what is evidence based. So what has been, for example, in the Peer Reviewed literature, which is undergone, you know, proper checks and, and controls what National Agencies are reporting and what is the normative guidance of leading organizations like the World Health Organization. So, you know, we have in the World Health Organization and their group of experts, and we need to remember that the World Health Organization at the end of the day is governed by all of its member states, which is more than 190 countries in the world, so if theres normative guidance, coming out of w h o, and its a misconstrued or simply spoken out against by spreading false information, mal information or misinformation. Theres different categories here that we can discuss. And i think thats where the Media Companies need to step in and they can controversial information. They can provide the proven information and simply harmful information they need to actually stop it. Spotify needs to have a clear policy. The way some of the other companies have, and we need to have oversight through, through, through, through Different National collaborations. Courtney spotify, new policy of labeling content about covered 1000. 00 and the option to remove or suspend users. And podcast that promote dangerous falsehoods is quite similar to those that have been adopted by facebook and, and you tube in twitter in the past, the bias spotify catching up. Now though, well, i think this goes to the point around regulation. So i dont think that we need regulators to decide what is the correct information or what is not correct information. Because lets also be clear. This is a, its called the novel corona virus because it is new. A lot of new information is coming up. The thing about science is that you have to introduce new evidence and update your understanding of that happen. So its not so clear. But what is clear is that regulator should compel platforms before you can, you know, be a social media platform or provide a service that you need to have certain safeguards in place. One of those is to have clear content moderation guidelines that set out what is your content moderation policy um and that, that will then hold them to some level of account. Similarly, we need to have independent oversight. You mentioned, you know, facebook and meta and twitter. This conte moderation issues, one of the, you know, big tough things that were grappling with these days. But we cant just trust the companies that theyre going to implemented and we need to understand what the impact of the circulation of miss dis, mal information, et cetera is. So that speaks to the need for independent access to the data that these companies have about how this information, sir, can you clarify what you mean . I independent. What do you mean by that . We need, we need independent researchers who have access to the content, moderation data and how it is actioned on by to platform. We know that facebook now called meta a squashed much of its research that they have had, expert researchers leave their company because they could not publish findings. Of course, thats what Frances Hogan revealed in her a whistleblower report. So thats the type of oversight that we need is to enable regulators to see what the impact of their content moderation plat, policies are, because also remember its not just about what information is left up or taken down. Its how is it amplified who gets to monetize that and that has a big impact in the circulation of miss dis, information and of good information. How do you encourage quality information . And i do think that the steps that theyre taking to put labels on these podcast is an important one. And you saw joe rogan responded to this pressure saying that hes going to try to have a bit more balance. But i think that the type of, you know, instead of having government come in to regulate content, we want to see this marketplace of ideas where you have Joanie Mitchell and neil young saying, were not going to be associated with this anymore. Because were concerned about this other policy over here, thats the marketplace of ideas that we want to be having casalene a. Do you agree with this that a courtney saying that you need independent oversight over this on this point completely. So i, i agree with a lot of the things that courtney mentioned and i think so independent oversight. You can look at this for coming from civil society. So researchers, academic researchers, you can see that the Digital Services act in the European Union even has a category called trusted flavors, which hopefully in the next years well have exactly this roll at the same time. What we also see is that there is a tendency a trend toward digital enforcement. So how do we check Legal Compliance on the internet . Interestingly, if we look at the new policies, the new content policies for spotify, they actually even have a category of illegal content where they say illegal content may be. And they give an example of content that is going to be against the laws of different states. But this legal complexity discussion that arises from there. This is where what i was mentioning earlier that for instance, with media laws that can be more strategically adopted. And that can be more, lets say, not so difficult to interpret in some with some occasions, such as that around expressing yourself in a media outlet around public crisis. Then i think that this is how regulators can actually help platforms and then demand Legal Compliance from these platforms. And the last one that i would like to make is on the one hand, yes there are. And this is, i think, where i diverged from use opinions. There are a lot of other platforms that have much more rigid and may be much more or better elaborated upon guidelines. But okay, you tube took down alex jones, but how many channels are there that are actually monetizing the type of content that alex jones made . And this is what Carlton Gillis ended there. Robin kaplan have called a tiered governance model. So social Media Companies also just kind of cherry bake who they want on the platform as well. They dont. Yeah. Okay, let me, let me put that to jeffrey because Jeffrey Catalina was just mentioning youtube. And we have seen this before because you to recently permanent the band, a Popular Video channel of a conservative commentator, also rumble a video content. Producer rumble has been the target as well, criticized by some for being one of the main platforms for what they call conspiracy communities. Same attack on sub sac for refusing to ban writer is deemed by some to be hateful. So is this a worrying trends . Could this be seen as well . We ban anyone thats going off key. I dont think its a worrying trend. I think its the right step. I mean, weve been ahead, im the president of the united states, taken off of twitter for promoting on proving medicines and going back to what was mentioned earlier, i agree that we need to get a balance between government regulation and marketplace self regulation. But we are to remember that, you know, young and Joni Mitchell and a few other successful musicians can afford to take their music off spotify and other musicians have been speaking out saying they agree with that step. Theyre against, you know, what rogans been promoting yet they cant afford to leave. So i think we do need to look at where we get that balance into what you know, what can be said and not the said. And then that, you know, the got the companies, you know, theyll be an additional balance, i think, you know, with, with the Market Regulation and, and who we, as consumers, you know, want to be associated with. But not it, not, i dont think we can leave it fully to, to the market. And i think that there are some, you know, some slander and some falsifications that shouldnt be allowed to be promoted. Ok, just stand by for a 2nd because lets just talk about the business and fact. So spotify has more customers than any other streaming service. It says it pumped out music and other content to about 380000000 people in more than 180 countries last year. Thats when it reported revenues of 9000000000. 00, and it makes its money through what it calls premium subscriptions would charge a monthly fee, or you can listen with ads for nothing. So its courtney, you know, at the bottom line these companies are making money and they need to do what suits them to protect their profits. Something. Oh, well yes, but on the other hand, its pretty shocking that a 9000000000. 00 company didnt have a publish content moderation policy. I mean thats, thats astounding. But i think that this goes to the point, which is he want a variety of platforms. Im, you know, its absolutely right that if youre a smaller artist and you just depend on those algorithms to flag your moot music to those hundreds of millions of subscribers than youre a captive audience. But the thing is, as you know, if were not promoting alex jones of, in a wars and you have these, these really pernicious purveyors of this information to millions of people. You know, there are, theres research out of youtube that shows that what was it 25 or 75 percent of the population was given information that linked them to extremism, by looking for very innocuous information. So part of this is getting Greater Transparency into the algorithmic Decision Making and what is the basis for how theyre recommending content and creating these communities. But you want a pluralistic environment where you have a lot of different choices about where to get your music, where to do your social media and that sort of thing. And right now we have a bunch of very powerful hedge, a monic companies. And so you have limited choice and one way that regulators could deal with that is to increase data portability. Let people take their data and their profiles with them across platforms to make it easier to switch music providers. So if i is a pang spotify, customer say, you know, i dont like their policy. I want to move over to pandora or to whatever the other services are. I can do that more easily and have choice. The greater choices we have means that people can create different communities with different types of standards. So that if you want to really open horrific vial environment, you know, go to that platform. But if you want and a nicer, you know, environment less filled with just information you will have those sort of choices. Available, catalina, you just dont have or a catalina. I see you nodding to courtney saying. Yeah, exactly. So i think the, the, the main to switch here, what spotify has been that it hasnt had, or this is my opinion now, but it hasnt had a constant moderation policy because it has been perceived globally as this. Busy music provider, right, like a streaming of music. But we saw that last year when it started creating new policies for its content, monetization of podcast. We saw that podcasts are, for instance, an example of a, of a product that spotify wants to export and it wants to really monetize and, and really get a lot of followers around. So this is where were speaking about news and were speaking about opinions and content. Moderation makes so much sense because the common moderation isnt just, you know, should we allow music that has the vulgar lyrics. But it actually become, becomes a matter that can really permeate the fabric of society. Monetization that you speak of. I mean there come new challenges dont there . Absolutely, absolutely. And we see this with all platforms. And what i find interesting and also just to, to build on what courtney was mentioning with portability. I completely agree. And especially because we see that platform developed very similar features. So now a lot, if i also have the same type of audio social media feature that, that glum house has become known for. So i think it makes a lot of sense to go in that direction of portability for sure. Just one more for you before i bring in jeffrey and courtney once again, but you were talking about the some the regulation Going Forward and what challenges do you see when it comes to to regulation . So in this space is normally, if were speaking about freedom of expression, were speaking about a constitutional law. But were also speaking about media law. And what one thing that we must remember is that if we look at this in a very legal way than were speaking about these laws from very specific jurisdictions, they will not be the same in india, in canada, and singapore and mozambique. Then these rules are going to really reflect other legal standards and platforms have a problem with trying to align their own interest to the massive complexity of regulation that is available. So obviously theyre going to try to do what is better for their transaction costs. The question for regulators and also for enforcement authorities will be what is the future of making the invisible, visible meaning. Making all of these rules not only visible for media for Media Companies like spotify, but also directly applicable and their platforms. And jeffrey, id just like to put this to you. This is something that was written by the royal society, which im sure youre aware, the u. K. National academy of scientists. And it said that governments and social media platforms should not rely on content removal for combating harmful scientific misinformation online. And they go on to say that theres little evidence that calls for major platforms to remove offended content will actually limit scientific misinformation harms. I mean, people are ready. Some people, i should say, mistrust institutions, the media and each other wont suppressing voices just make that worse. I think thats absolutely right in many ways because once material or individuals are demonized and removed from a platform, they get a new platform from which to to, to spread their information w h o system a week ago published a really interesting myth busting document on, on truth set, well missing truth and, and they, you know, we published or we wrote, you know, or sharon, rather the, what was a mess. You know what was Incorrect Information and then they put what was the truth to people could simply read, you know, that kind of false information. So instead of removing it, they actually brought it back out again. And they said, but actually heres the truth and it would be nice if an organization like spotify, you know, could, could do that and could allow for that. And maybe even would need to provide the funding for it. But were in a pandemic and organ its, you know, platforms expand if i need to be called out because by providing that platform to people who are spreading misinformation, you know, theyre, theyre perpetuating the pandemic with the devastating consequences we have. You know, health, social, political, cultural and economic. So i think rather than just removing it, because once its removed, people find ways to share it anyway. Would be to actually show what was incorrect and different this i think coordinate a final word, final word for you because i see you shaking your head. Go ahead. Yeah, im actually the stuff you show that deep platforming is very effective. So alex jones, when he was the platform from several major providers, including not just social media, but also say payment providers, Payment Processing providers, it has an impact because a lot of these, its not just about like, let me get my opinion and you know its horrible its all about making money off of it to find just information machines. So d platforming can be effective. And i think we have to be very careful and there are very good guidelines out there for how to report on mr. Dis information without also elevating it and bringing it into the public sphere in a way that it may not have been before it got some sort of Mainstream Media coverage. I think we need to be real careful and this emphasizes why we need and the kind of access to data so that we can do the research that will show what type of interventions are affected. Ok, well leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us. Courtney rod, structuralist, lazarus and catalina, go on to thank you for watching. 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