a come to wisdom. so don, this is inside stuart. ah, hello, welcome to the program, i'm tom mccrae. this week marks a grim milestone for the people of western sudan. the conflict and awful began 20 years ago. it's killed hundreds of thousands of people and displaced more than 2000000. a peace agreement was signed in 2020, but many a still in desperate need of humanitarian aid victims are also demanding justice. we have a lot to discuss without guess, surely, but 1st this update from al jazeera is have a morgan who spoke to some of the most affected at sam's m camp. the northern da for when war started ins to dance western region of dar for i. li mahmud says he didn't expect it to reach his village in the wheeler in its north, but eventually it did, and he and his family were forced to find refuge in this camp. luna, and when we fled our homes in 2003, it was sheltering in the open or under trees. we thought it wouldn't last and continued farming that year, but couldn't harvest anything cuz it done to new know people were killed, homes were burned, families was separated as i fled. i was separated from my sons and only found them when the camp was set up. the dar forward killed more than 300000 people and over 2000000 were forced from their homes according to the un, 20 years on many areas in the region remain devastated from the war. villages and towns were emptied, as people fled seeking safety. several camps have been set up across the region to shelter those, escaping the fighting. many camps for the displaced and therefore have turned into towns, seemingly replacing those destroyed during years of war. but they all like basic services. there is no running water here. no electricity. and many people rely on humanitarian aid. but it has been dwindling for those who live here and then oh oh yes, we've had cost to receive aid since we came into the cam. but some cars had been cancelled. i know some people get them every 6 months and some regular vendors, large families that get a don't even get enough to last them a month. the number of 8 organizations in the camp has also gone down. 8 organizations see a lack of funding is hampering their efforts. we don't have enough assistance to go around. we have limited resources, and we are in a very difficult position where we have to choose from who gets assistance and who doesn't. so what we try to do is to increase informing our donors our donors of the polite and the condition id says his children have no no other home than the camps. and after 2 decades of living as a displaced person, his worried his grandchildren will also grow up with limited assistance and away from their home village. he will morgan, alta 0, them some camp, northstar for ok. let's take a closer look at the conflict which began in 2003 after ethnic african rebels rose up against then presidents, i'mma alba, she has era the dominated government. the share responded by arming local arab malicious, known as the judge await who targeted known arab tribes accused of supporting the rebels. less we mentioned hundreds of thousands of people have been killed and millions more displaced. the international criminal court has changed to share with genocide and crimes against humanity. he was forced to resign and 2019 after wide spread protests. ah, okay. will it spring in our guests now in hot tomb out to gun a c. c. chairman of the national liberation and justice party, and a former governor of da for state who was involved in negotiations in doha, as the former chairman of the da, 4 regional thores he in doha, doha abdullah hob affinity, a professor at our institute for graduate studies. who writes extensively on sudan and also in hot tomb, her face, mohammad director of justice for africa, sudan, a womb welcome to all 3 of you. thank you very much for being on inside story said i am. if i could please begin with you out to county. do you feel like the world has forgotten da, 4 and the conflict that's been going on for the last 20 years? well if they do feel like so because the conflict is going on. however, i would like to find out that there is an conflict between the river movements and the governors. none. and then there are private companies among various tribes in the world and then are mandatory as far as the company between the groups and the government concerned. i think this over for the signing of the dream and most of the moment they have signed the lease agreement and they are now her phone. close, one will be still there. i do still not sign that, but we feel that as part of the response in cities, however, the project conflicts continue over the last few few years in addition to that. and one of the, the issues that are causing problems for nowadays, bonded as you know, very large scale projects, ration of light went down to the people. and this has to be one of the, the most important factors that are being quoting executed in, in, on. well, i believe that the international community, i mean, unit for the international committee almost. i mean, amount between $13000000000.00 in that in that mission. but unfortunately, i don't think that unit has that much in what had that money, meaning bethany involvement, i mean a lot of things sort of right now. i don't think that any that is any focus on the financial from india and all the focus is more or less on how to me and the government. and that's what push up the what. how does that, how you feel as well. the duffle is being completely overlooked at this point in time. yes, i think it has always been overlooked. look, i think. ready interviews, i have heard the this seemingly interest intense interest in the media in that for why also in abilities where a trying to show to watch that for or at least go in the media. it did not actually help the actual people to the ground that they there was not really robust piece building. there was no aid. there was no attempt to look at the roots of the issue. they were only putting some muscle just a, you know, meet over their cost quite a lot. but they with themselves would have less. most of the time, the cars that car jacked and they can not even. and they go to the police last there to find it for them. so yes, and i think the conflict has also, as stacy has dimension related the transformation in the has and the mind, tribal relationships. and i think also created and not only banditry, but the building of themselves will become a lively approach. so these distortions in the society and in the environment need to was attention. yeah. a facebook. can you just explain for people that might not know? what is the heart of the issue here, like up to 20 years, it still clearly hasn't been resolved. what can you just get to the heart of the issue here and explain it for people? yes, in the middle of the corporate people are security. and if you look at when doors start looking to so the 1227 and c is conflicts. we're now back in terms of level of conflicts to 2002 on 2004 in listening. and the other thing i think, what the police station of that and electric community abandon issue. therefore, you don't draw the unity without having a credible for peacekeeping or enforcement agencies that please sure that i think on the other issue is natural support for the 80 piece. and now many people are getting back to the bridges, so they can work and they cannot because they've been attack by the same malaysia. would you start negotiating that displacement and the killing that what i think that is appropriate. i think the ontological need to overlook. and simplify the issue, therefore, i'm not giving it that the needed attention. the actual address is a little girl and underneath the underlying forty's still there at the kidney is still there and we are back to square one. or else again, it does it feel like you are back at square one and, and what do you think is actually going to, you know, solve some of the, some of the problems that of i guess sprang back to the surface over the last couple of years no, i don't think we are, we are back to school. one is a very difficult time where we had from frontier between the force of the government, supported by the militia, against any civilians and so forth. well, i think we move this tip a bit, but there are a lot of ground to cover in terms of that i believe that i mean the issue that when we question that, is it political from the center to resolve the conference or i don't think there is, i mean, in 2016, we have actually come up with a program for solomon that program was, that was implemented a very limited search. the only way to have, i mean, things normalize in that? well, if we draw the arms from the people, i mean, i mean a lot of these people, i know everybody has anybody but he's willing to to attack innocent civilians too. and that's a fact. i mean, i mean there is a program i thought of intimacy when he was in, but at the same time also we feel that there are some issues with the central government the century. going to pay attention to what is going to end up with an end to them to the middle of the people of the hub. i mean, how do you go about deciding so many people and, and in a peaceful and secure way? i mean, is it even possible? yes, i think you're chinese, right. and saying that the actual conflict really conflicts was no, died down. there is no longer fighting between government for shoes and movements. but on site i think. and the situation is now much worse than when deliberating had started. and this might be might indicate that maybe the armored conflicts was not the way to go about this. but anyway that's, that's now begun. the issue is now when we're done, when this war started, that for as a state or as a region was more prosperous and she's now and so that also had more resources that it had now because at that time, oil as the found and was, was flowing and there was some respect, you know, they couldn't be of sudan has collapsed almost. so there is no way that we're about disarmament or any other thing. if you do not have resources, what you need is a plan for the start. she distracted her too much. what it was now also as it was said, most of the rebel groups are not on time. jim are part of the government, but the government itself is not functioning at all because it is now the conflict has now gone to the center. so what we probably need is 1st read some consensus on a democratic process. you start on the sudan as a whole the international committee them should come with some funds designated specifically for organization that for returning the blessed people to the get home the. busy mobilizing the dishes, then we will have some, some movement at the moment. as i said, bearing arms had become a wheel flavor. yeah. that either the munitions are either paid by the government or are paid by, by 40 hours, or they go and pillage and roll to, to live. so this is a situation cannot and abuses taped face. we just said that there should be democratic consensus. i mean, what are the chances of that actually happening anytime soon? i think, i believe it is probably more that gets responding going by. so i think if you look at all the piece agreement on a new book, they also are providing dobbs on munitions for the 2nd edition under michael's. and the problem is, the question is that look because of the getting the government because of the security and the government supporting somebody, this is what our movement i made to protect the people. i think that is why i think that is the problem. after the option, the other thing is, i don't think all these agreement intentions tend to work and dental article that would but live opinion implemented on the ground on your part. but you've got to delete it or but when i'm not addressing the underlying orders of the problem of the people which is demand security the according to reach i get, i'm trying to get people can actually can't find enough work to to contribute to just security. that's why i think what we need to do is you need to address the modem. you know, one of the point you really sure how well, because if you're applying for the same every month we used to be didn't we committing all these crimes to actually to be restored and i don't want people i personally, this is what is right to have the probably support for sponsible, from restoring people to be pulled. they used to be part of the killing machine on sep, i think we need to have a credible force which is being rescued by the people. so they come, people can again, but i'm sure that that particular i think that's the point and that i can do anything i can, i don't see any, any time that we're going to go back to that point. ok again, do you think that or is the possibility of a democratic election anytime soon? i just need to respond to what to do with him. i mean, in order, in order to put him into peace agreement, printed, the people are in position. there is no doubt about that. i mean, this is an emotional kind of argument, which some people say will say that the leaders, they run full or positions if you go back to the economy, to speak on behalf of the, of the risk. but, but i speak on behalf of those well being in was in the piece agreement. if you look it up and ask people, how many schools that are built, how many health sublease, how many police units we have, we have, we have established. so we tell you, i mean, and the report on that, the only reason why that has not be so effectively it doesn't appeal in the media simply because of the security situation in the region. us democracy, sponsor and i believe, i mean, you know, the company is it is full, right? because we are wise on regional meets is not possible to have a 100 consensus on, on the move brought the program to, to implement the country. but we believe that these have some sort of, i mean, a consensus by the 6th, you 70 or 80 percent of, of the political parties and, and, and see the societies on a program for governing the transition. and it's not very difficult to, to, to, to agree on that. but the way i see it right now is the international community. so it's not helping and disrespect they are actually dis, my own believe that those who are involved from the community in, in providing support to the 70 to get all over the program that they're facing. know if in fact ticket your nissan, i think they're both still in groups and that, that does not help the company transform into any kind of normal kinetic system. i can just go back to the, for the as a mode. they mention yet quickly. what's important asked one of the most important issues that affect these or is there a unit issue, you know, what's going on in libya? i mean, it's almost, i mean, this a fight fighting word on because instruction to maybe get a number of that for that for a bit. yeah. fighting challenges, facing a little problems. center african republic does not have. i mean know that many thing they did throughout the region, there is a war going over there, usually very little. they go in and out of for into living countries and they being and they're both in been within the board. so i think the issue of that when you know that there is the need that the international community should also have you that we now see a russian french company moving over in that region in center africa. and, and that's a lot of negative effects on security to induct otherwise, have you touched on that a little earlier about the international interest? and i think in 2006 it was when george clooney went to dan 4. and i guess put the conflict on the world stage, do you think that actually helped or hindered? because it seems like the situation didn't get much better in the years after that to this i personally think it has hindered for many reasons because people became a focus on what is happening and what we are in washington. and even the people on that for where actually elated by recent told that the cover is going to come and the americans are great to send the troops and do what they did in iraq and remove a machine. and then for the, those people in that way they see fantasy and i would add that may be a little bit different. who is have me that in fact, yes, the military option taken by the rebellion had in house, in the insecurity in house the poverty and destruction of the people. yes, of course we blamed the geem for having over reacted, but the rebel with themselves again has said they have also committed atrocities. sometimes again its own members buy in fighting. they have also fragmented into smaller and smaller rival and land mortgage. and this is to an issue. and now regarding the issue to me, i think the people who are blocking consensus are minority in this afternoon. the hard liners in, in, and the freedom and antique movement have been always, has been kind of our bidding, which i can imagine. and we, as, as observed, was, have told him, from the, in writing, in the early period. this extra them is me going to lead to more damage and destruction and they allow themselves suffering from that. they are the ones were supported that up for cheese. and they are the ones who support the data behind and are the ones who will have that. but if you still have core sense abroad, the consensus now they, they, they cannot now the international community is not going to help sudan. if so then doesn't help itself. you have to be a democrat, the government, and they have to be some, some positive interaction between the people down for the that i think, i mean, i know you've worked extensively with humanitarian groups and on human and civil rights, almost humanitarian labor. what to the people, those displace people need now from, from within sudan, but also from the international community. i think up people the support in terms of the lease, but this is not an option. i think i said 8040 people ob workers what they need security. and also i did think of new stuff in many lounge. it's actually displacing the indigenous group within that area that problem security that need to be addressed. so people come up to re, please. i think that we need but very little support so they can rebuild their life again. but i think that, but that is not the actually we know of the government or even when it's out of you. but piece agreement is not bad because clearly from being no, and we don't, i don't think they're priority. and i think i understand that, you know, people cannot rely on whatever i think that have to stop because that the national community will have a fatigue for my bank. we need to start presenting for these 4 people to well, but i don't agree with the army of all the money if it have have to happen, otherwise will not have kitty. i think that's a problem, but peter security is but putting for this w beach for, you know, not only for that and the, even the reasoning and guess who doesn't want and will become actually contribute to any sort of actually, and the receiving end of the leave is continuous that we can to rebuild not also to destroy. i'll take out just before we have to go. i mean, people towel has changed things before. do you think that that is the only way to make lasting change from here on out? well, i think, i mean, what, let me just answer the question that you plan on, on the international, on the international community. i mean there are 2 tracks. i mean, the other groups and i do believe i agree with the advocacy group. in fact, encourage you to somebody in a moment to increase the pressure on, on this a, b t, as in that for and the conversion was so that it has affected the work. i mean, groups as far as the supervision and 40 concerned priority number one is to enable the re fi and the idea is to go back to the areas of oregon. and that could only happen if there's a serious disarmament of people in my program in that for without this amendment program, there is no way that i think and the issue that i'm very much concerned with is, i mean the government couldn't do that. why they don't want to do that is the question that we need to do. but government has the combat roles the ability to do eat and i mean those see any, any program a summer may end up. or we may probably say, because we don't have a government right now, we don't have a credit in, in, in, in capital. but that is not an unexcused feeling is taking place in the day. and i have just come back from the way i was there for months or so, and i visited it is of companies where people lost their lives, some people out there. and by the way, the idp know me is not private. number one, they then have become a producer, but the question is, when they go back on in the season rameses for farming, i mean at that they thought to get it done. and this is where the government and this a pot beyond the armed forces and the security default. ok. unfortunately we're going to have to leave it there. thank you. to all of our guests al, to ghani c. c a l a n d and ha fees. mohammad, thank you for being on inside story today and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a inside story from a ton mccrae and the entire team here. and so ha bye for now. ah, a week you look at the world's top business stores, from global markets and economies to construction and small businesses to understand how it affects taught daily lives. counting the cost on al jazeera, the latest news, as it breaks, still biding, arriving here bled june more our weapons, the more the fed financial support with detailed coverage more than a victory. the city war has killed or displeased many serious millions of bethel at the church here looking for safety from around the world, limiting their powers require amendment to the constitution. i'm the electron more with increasing number of government electric. neither of us will have to wait longer, hold on. mm mm. oh l g 0. when ever so i'm fully back to boy, dill ha, with a look at our main stories on al jazeera ukraine's president has warned, the situation is getting worse in the east and frontline city of back mode.