a speedy conclusion to the political wrangling, so they can focus on getting their post pandemic business back on track. richard kimber, al jazeera hong kong. ah, it out is. there are these, you top stories. russian forces led by mercenaries from the wagner group say they've gain control of the eastern ukrainian town of salanda. keith is denied the claim. fighting in the areas intensified in the past days is russia tries to gain ground that us the salad early is the know the terrorist state and it's propaganda . so try to pretend that some part of our city of solid are almost completely destroyed by the occupiers. is some kind of rush us achievement. they will present and are already presenting this to their society in such a way as to support the bungalow zation and to give hope to those who support aggression. but the fighting continues. the diets direction is holding out and re without a break even for one day do everything to strengthen ukrainian defense. i sal is claimed responsibility for a suicide explosion that killed at least 21 people in the afghan capital loss happened near the foreign ministry office in cobble where a chinese delegation was meeting with the taliban flies have resumed in the united states after a technical glitch. ground a thousands of flights for hours problem is being blamed on a computer outage at the federal aviation administration. president joe biden has ordered investigation executive st. anthony blinkin. and you as defense, secretary lloyd austin, have signed new agreements where their japanese counterparts to expand military ties. they've also discussed the growing threats from china's ambitions in the region. rebels in ethiopia, northern to gray region, have begun the hunting in their heavy weapons to the federal army. it's part of a peace deal signed in south africa more than 2 months ago. to end 80 year conflicts, thousands of venezuelans have marched in the capital, caracas, demanding better wages. the group included public health work as teachers, and pensioners who earn between 30 and a $100.00 a month. inflation in the south american country hit a 155 percent last october. okay. inside story coming up next. ah. lesson aries are being used more widely in conflicts despite a un convention binding them. russia's wagner group is involved in intense fighting in ukraine. so why are some states using mercenary forces and who's accountable for their actions? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm fully by t bought. mercenaries or soldiers for hire are illegal in many countries with a united nations convention against their use ratified by more than 40 nations. but big military powers, including the united states, russia, china, france, and the united kingdom are not potty to that agreement. and some have used them extensively. mercenaries have been more and more active in recent conflicts during the 2003 iraq war. the former black water groups supported american soldiers. today, the russian wagner group is directly involved in some of the fears is fighting in east and ukraine. so we've got a lot to discuss with our guests in just a moment, but 1st natasha butler has more from keith. on the wagner group. for the head of the wagner mercenary group, yevgeny. p. goshen, a kiss fighters are true patriots. and for them, the involvement in ukraine is really an opportunity to prove this. there's no doubt that wagner certainly being a lot more high profile, a lot more public in recent months. now, wagner mercenaries, 1st became involved in ukraine in 2040 fighting to help a pro russian separatists in the east of the country. they are heavily involved in the ongoing battle for buck mode that would be something of a pies. corporate goshen were russian forces held by wagner able to capture and control that town. but it's not only ukraine. the wagner is involved in it has been involved in syria in libya, in the central african republic. and it is often accused of using brutal tactics no times of war crimes. as natasha mentioned, or the private wagner group has been active in other war zones as well, including libya, syria, molly and central african republic. it's been accused of war crimes by the ukrainian government, and the e. u has sanctioned it after accusing it of serious human rights abuses in ukraine . the middle east and africa. the united states also used private contractors in the past. 4 of the former black water groups personnel were found guilty of killing iraqis civilians in a mass shooting in baghdad in 2007, but were freed from jail in the us after. pardon by then president donald trump will. let's bring in our guest smile for today's show in copenhagen soccer mccloud, a chair of the un working group on the use of mercenaries in oxford, samuel romani, associate fellow at the royal united services institute and author of putins war on ukraine and in amsterdam. marie could a hone assistant professor in international criminal law at the university of amsterdam, and especially on crimes of aggression. thank you for joining us on inside. sorry, a very warm welcome. samuel. let me sot with you. russia has suffered repeated setbacks on the battlefield in ukraine. recently, but it appears that with the help of mercenaries from the wagner group, it could be about to make some gains. talk to us 1st about the role of wagner in the conflict in ukraine. how expensive is it and how active all these mess marries? so the larger group is down, the largest contingent that has ever been according to us. estimates is got around 50000 people. $40000.00 of them are convicts and prisoners who promotions lifted out of the prisons in exchange for amnesty a and a salary. and 10000 of them are private military contractors. initially, the water group was tasked with really the role of the a savage or in a disruptor. it was involved, for example, in some of the desk laws that were sent you kill about him, his lensky, and but more recent months is played a much more active role in the front lies 1st in the campaign, the husk. and now, especially in the battle for back wooten cylinder, and if russia has one ins order, which ukrainians are disputing is the 1st victory. it was the water group was really solely responsible for it. and now the water group will be able to get access to gypsum and salt mines that are very lucrative and could potentially help finance the $100000000.00 a month. that promotion and spending on financing these mercenaries going forward. right. so it's role as dramatically and its influences as highest level ever as thinking of financing these mercenaries, a salmonella, russia has consistently denied that. wagner has any connection with this fate, but these private military companies are not allowed in russia. so we know who funds the group and does it effectively function as a branch of the kremlin? well, definitely, private military companies have been banned to russia for a long time. and even if jennifer goshen himself was actually suing the european union in suing or various journalists for saying that he had anything to do with the water grip. of course, until the water grew, became a much more powerful forest. it was seen as the most effective fighting needed in the russian army. and now he seeking credit as successes, as of september. but financing is coming from a variety of sources is coming from minerals and extract us. so we're seeing oil in libby at the control over the 3 major oil ports, golds they're trying to get it. molly diamonds is drawn for going to republic, as well as the contracts with the governments and with the partners that they're working with like leave after and libya or to adherence are so it really comes from those sources and it's effectively self scenic. so it functions as an alternative security, oregon, but russia does not have to likely devote, is defense budget to financing their activities. and you can actually make revenue for the russians date. interesting metric, idaho. and it's not just russia and the wagner group. of course, the wide spread outsourcing of military and security functions has become a major phenomenon in recent years. why are stacy think increasingly contracting out to pipe took to the private sector and what is their legal status of these private companies under international law? and under the laws of armed conflict, well, stay students for many different reasons. and one particular reason is that russia is using this as possible than i ability. so by using the rush i saying we are not involved, or this is just a normal contract that we've been closed with. for instance, the central african republic in there for nothing illegal is going on. and international law struggles, international humanitarian law to laws of armed conflict, struggles with how to really determine and categorize these types of people. because on the one hand you have a category such as that combatants like regular armed forces for instance, but also mirth, reese, which are very mostly prohibited and then civilians but, but these private military contractors, they kind of escape a lot of these categories that were really i suppose these private military companies are often particularly designed to escape these categories, but of a legitimate sorry, are they legitimate? well, so they fight very often in violation of the lives or aren't loves, of our conflicts or to commit war crime. so that is very much illegal, notwithstanding which category there is. but it, it shows some sort of like ability to that deny as if russia state is involved. so if they are saying that while in tears and rushes saying, oh, they're not part of us. it seems almost, it's credible that russia isn't part of it, but how is it possible then that for instance, to walk in a group gets $40000.00 detainees, release pardons from russian prisons to fight? they're obviously very lynx. yeah. ah. so can you afford to buy this just how dangerous are these mercenaries and they're growing use around the globe, and what are the implications of their presence and conflict zones, whether it's ukraine, central african republic? while the working group on the use of mercenaries is extremely concerned about the increasing use of mercenaries and mercenary type actors in arm conflicts in a variety of different countries around the world. it's not just the, the wagner group, although that's the one that's been getting a lot of attention. but we've seen the said that group out of a turkey, for example, being involved in the recruitment and training of, of mercenaries for 4 different aren't conflicts though. the, the difficulty with these types of actors is that when they are involved in armed conflicts, the prolong those conflicts, the destabilize peace processes, the destabilized countries and reaches. and they violate human rights on, on a very white scale. and so course this is hugely problematic for, for a civilian populations. so we've seen ports of mass killings, of torture or sexual and gender based violence and forced disappearances looting. and i more crime. so the interest for minute targeting of, of civilians. so they, they bring a level of violence that, that, and isn't always, of course i'm conflict is, is violent, but, but mercer ticket a whole new level. and then of course, it's a difficult to hold them to account for these cities prob, problematic, you say soccer, and yet it up, it would appear that states are increasingly engaging these mercenaries to further . busy that their foreign policy objectives that would, that would seem to be the the case. and we've certainly seen their, their use in and the conflict in the corner. caraballo, we seen their use in libya and central african republic in syria. and in multiple, multiple arms are on conflicts. and this is a new, a new development where we're seeing a shift the, you're the traditional idea of the, the, the mercenary army or the mercy was historically, you know, the white guys who went from the global north to the global south. they weren't very arch in numbers. and what we're seeing, what we've already heard, is that, that we're seeing significantly larger numbers of them being recruited. and there's another layer of problem or complexity there because they're being recruited from other on conflict or conflict affected countries. so for example, we've seen large numbers of, of people being recruited as mar series, from syria, and, and sometimes us, because they have had experience as fighters for i, as for example. or it's because they are being coerced into, to becoming mercenaries for economic, for economic reasons. so we're not just seeing their, their, their impacts on ongoing, on conflicts where they're being deployed. we're seeing them and having impacts in countries where there are already arms on can on conflicts ongoing. and that's hugely problematic. samuel money of why do you think we're seeing that the re emergence of these security called the so called security groups globally, especially after all the bad publicity after the iraq war, where they were accused of war crimes and so on. and, and talk to us also about the objectives of, of the states who hire these mercenaries. what, what is it that they are wanting to achieve by using these are groups? well, the interesting thing was that the fact that black water and some of the controversies that were associated in the iraq war actually received a lot of backlash in the collective non west russian and chinese state media outlets. basically launched information campaigns and diatribes against blackwater . but then, ironically, they proceeded to see the value of using mercenaries for their own purposes. so mercenaries are used for a variety of functions. the 1st is to carry out in diable operations, especially in the counter insurgency sphere. as what we've seen, russia tried to carry a borderline mozambique and more successfully in central african republic. and now they're trying to do it in molly. another thing that they're using mercenaries, war is the guardianship of stationary assets, whether it be military bases. i, the russians have mercenaries in the gassy, or they use mercenaries to our garden gold mines. i can see dan, for example, the chinese are also use private security companies to guard at elements of their boston road initiative. so guardianship and the 3rd is use the mercenaries for some kind of logistical training and tactical role. i've actually reprising the role of soviet era tactical advisors during the cold war and training local forces. how to use certain types of air to said defense systems, how to use certain types knobs. so those are the main reasons and main uses the mercenaries in global conflicts today, america, as the samuel highlighted, there is not just state act as we're using these missionaries, also non state actors armed goals. multinational companies that use east so called private security firms. but under what norms do they operate and, and who is it that monetize their activities ultimately? well, no one really monitors. there are cavities and that's one of the big problems. and it really depends on what they do, how lawful it is. when they engage in hostilities, when they, when they do more than just guard a door guard and entrance, for instance, or guard a ship when they actually start using force, then they're engaging suddenly in hostilities. and if it's an armed conflict, they need to abide by the law of armed conflict. and this is what we see whitely occurring, particularly with walk in a group now, but also previously with black water and so forth, that they're actually torturing, murdering and so forth. and then what do you do because it's historically been really difficult in armed conflicts or with well organized groups to hold them to account. because 1st of all, how get, how do you obtain them. ready but also, how do you investigate who exactly was responsible exactly for what? and this is now i think new challenge where because we see such a large scale, these crimes being occurring, that it must be tension of the international criminal court. also to look at the leadership of these groups. yeah. ok. your thoughts about this? how do you hold these groups accountable? then what can i say for one thing? first of all, the working group on the use of mercenaries does have a role in monitoring the activities of of mercer, is that that's part of our mandate. but i think we also have to be, be very precise here in terms of what we're talking about. because the term mercenary does have an international legal definition, and that is an actor, an individual or an actor who has been recruited specifically to participate in hostilities. and that they do actually the paint in the, in the hostilities. and they're not a national of the, of a party to the, to the on conflict. and they've not been st on official. so what's the difference between a mercenary and a foreign fighter? oh, well that's, that's, that's our house a different, a different question. but if we, if, if we think about a private security company or private military security companies or private military companies, none of that, those terms have any legal definition. mercenary does have a specific legal definition. and it's perhaps helpful to think about these actors on a, on a spectrum, right? so, so that you, that the, the, the m, the laws of are in conflict. don't criminal ice or mercer is the un convention on mercenaries of doesn't fight criminalize the recruitment, the training, the financing, and the deployment, all of mercenaries, some individual states, do have a criminal laws that prohibits, prohibit mercer is even if the state is not a party to the to the, the treaty or, but we have a, we have a situation where it's actually very, very difficult. as i said early with is very difficult to hold these actors to account. okay, let me, as i'm, are marika a point about this. you mentioned the example of the central african republic, their soccer, but more recently, maria, the wagner group, for example, was invited by the military government in molly to provide security against armed groups. and it is the arrival of, you know, the, the them, wagner. will that influence francis decision to withdraw in 2021, to pull it, stoops out of the country. who then, you know, in, in the case of man, for example, if crimes are committed by members of, of the wagner group who's then is responsible and liable for these abuses? is it the maryan government, which invited the group under international law or, or, i mean, who did, who do you turn to? yes and yes. all of them. so it is obviously the individuals that are committing crimes, i. it is their command walls and most particularly of course a p, goshen like the, the leader of the walking or group. and he might be very interesting also for the international criminal court to actually look at. but it's also, and there's also sanctioned regimes against a lot of members of the wagner group and also corporations that work with them and support them. and then there's also state responsibility. and so there's also possibilities. francis, a litigation going out to the european court of human rights and also at the international court of justice against russia for not just the crimes that they are committing themselves, but also how they are really tied to all sorts of volunteers and little green men that are walking about and there is, the courts don't really look at whether they deny that, but really to factual relationships. so if the court finds that indeed, there are strong ties between russia and these individuals that are committing crimes and at russia thereby, really is attributable. then the russian state is also held to account. i sammy, i'll remind me your thoughts about this on the issue of accountability. well, i think it should certainly be the individuals who are carrying out the crimes as well as the governments that are sponsoring and are working with them on those fronts. and i'll be interesting to see whether there are major tribunals that will be held for some of the crimes that have been taking place inside molly and central african republic. in molly, for example, you've seen the youth to be at fault, but also the water good. a be directly responsible for actually i think the more a massacre which killed almost as many people as boucher back at the same time the merchant april. same thing in central african republic where we've seen a systematic policy of rape bed. torture and massacre is strictly on the outskirts of bang way and other parts of the country being carried out by the water group off in conjunction with the armed forces. so i think the prosecution will probably go towards bull, and those 2 cases will be interesting. let me ask frau handle it a is given yet, but you're talking here about international prosecution, right? ma'am? so i want to ask you about the, i see, see here, the role of the i c. c. if, let's say, when wagner commits crimes in ukraine, which has, will you know, in territories where the i, c, c has jurisdiction like ukraine, for example. then what is a legal process? and then what about as a country like the united states, which, which is not potty to, to the i c. c. how then do you go about you know, holding, holding the group accountable? well, i can't, i can't speak on the, the specific situation of ukraine and the i c c. but what i, what i can say is that we, we've seen countries like central african republic set up mechanisms to try to, to hold these actors to account for the problem is it is but groups like why nor are becoming integrated into the, the fabric of, of of society, of countries like center and republic, which is making it very, very difficult for the victims and their families to report on, on human rights abuses and on atrocities. they're either they're scared to do so they're being intimidated. they're being harassed. we've seen attacks against human rights defenders and, and journalists, so the space to, to try and report these types of atrocities is, is shrinking. it makes it, it makes a very, very difficult. so, you know, even at the international level it's, it's hard to get any kind of accountability. the working group issued an allegation letter in relation to the russian government because we received information that russian nationals had been involved in the torture and, and merger of assyrian national in syria. and there was an attempt to try to bring the claim in the russia, courts that didn't succeed. there were multiple obstacles and delays. and in the way of, of that click, no one other option would be for countries around the world to exercise universal jurisdiction, or some of them will see you in crimes that are being committed. so that we've seen some countries increasingly starting to do that. i think that some crimes are so severe, they're so heinous and fight should be they should be prosecuted. ok. site of the place. it took place. all right, let me ask you, maria, about the options. there are, as a soccer say, it is hard to get accountability very often at the national level. the i c, c very often goes after the big fish, not the foot soldiers, you know, on the field to her cur, committing these crimes. so what, what is then, are the options, what are the options? legal options? yes. so the international criminal court has jurisdiction over a limited amount of crimes, the worst of worst crimes and war crimes, friends, yes, humanity, genocide, and crime of aggression. what walker is doing is by is, is war crimes all over the place in ever, in a lot of different countries. but the international criminal court can only exercise jurisdiction when it has jurisdiction. and that is limit to crimes being committed on a territory where the i see has jurisdiction and has that of ukraine, but also over central african republic. and molly and so there are some types of possibilities here for the international criminal court. it would then indeed look at the big fish those most responsible. so think particularly on pre goshen and then indeed as was just discussed, there's also universal jurisdiction. so other states wherever members of walking a group that are being suspected of having committed war crimes occur, they might also be prosecuted in other countries. so all of the walking are people that are identified in being allegedly haven't committed war crimes can therefore risk danger when they are traveling outside of their safe, harboring states for process. and also importantly, is ukraine itself, ukraine, where a lot of these crimes are being committed, is very active in prosecute war crimes. and so what you, craig know, also do is to prosecute in absentia. so they are prosecuting people, even if they don't have them detained. okay, thank you all very much for a very, very interesting discussion, samuel romani marie, could a home so come across. thank you so much for joining us on inside story and thank you to for watching. you can always watch this program again any time by visiting our website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha, inside story. you can of course, also join the conversation on twitter handle. is that a j inside still for me for you back to one whole team here in doha, thanks for watching bye from ah ah. and african narrative from african perspectives. a bryce guy defend it'd be a good for a new series of short documentary by african filmmakers from kenya. nigeria and rwanda ma did not join our lot, talk somewhat conservation from about joy in the traffic and feeding the game africa direct on just the new horizon for visually impaired the rockies. they finally have their own football team. training was launching in october in the city of karbala. the specially designed to both was donated by a japanese tour it created cracking sound to allow players to locate these players hope to join football clubs and represent their country in competition. but other iraqi provinces don't have their own teams because there are only 5 believe specially designed to hold we, i generation of scared people, but very ambitious, very united, very persistent and very good that you might be comfortable right now, but not for long. you will soon feel the same here. we feel every day from peter, hong kong and uganda, 3 women grapple with the impact of the frontline activists fear future children on a jesse ah, bold. and i'm told stories from asia and the pacific on al jazeera examining the headlines. how big a breakthrough is this story moment for all towers research, unflinching journalism. i can see the part of the tree where 2 of the bullets hit their about my head high. sharon personal stories with a global audience. nature is so much more than income for shareholders if the library of my people explore an abundance of world class programming on al jazeera . ah i love the insides in.