Hello and welcome to the program. Im how much im june. The United Nations peacekeeping mission has been around for more than 60 years. And that time, its helped many countries transition from conflict to peace and stability. Its troops are deployed by Member States, a number in the 10s of thousands. But theres a growing pushback against the blue helmets, especially in africa, where some host nations say theyve lost confidence in their mission. Democratic republic of congo is among those calling for their withdrawal. Who have already sent unpacking . Critics, a peacekeeping needs reform. All other say it does important work despite its shortcomings. Well get the thoughts of our guests in a moment. But 1st, this report from clinton on un peacekeepers have been deployed to democratic republic of congo for road a quarter of a century. A large part of their mandate is to protect civilians from armed groups. But now the comedies present says theyve failed in their mission. And wants them gone. You live, i deeply. It is to be deployed. Thats a peacekeeping Mission Needs to play for 25 years. And the democratic republic of congo have failed to cope with the rebellion and Armed Conflicts which are tearing apart the region, need north to protect the civilian population. A new many civilians in d r c. Feel the same way. Earlier this month, the protesters demanded the peacekeepers go take use, do you end up doing level to protect them . The Congolese Army cleared the demonstrations. 43 people were killed. You wouldnt peacekeepers and also worn out their welcome elsewhere, they left to dunbar for region and 2021 at the urging of the government. And molly has become one of the latest countries to the man they pull out the un has admitted to shortcomings. But says, without peacekeepers, things will be much worse. Growing divisions among Member States combined with the increased complexity of todays conflicts poses a formidable challenge to peacekeeping. And the girl, the task of maintaining cease and secure just i encourage you to consider the alternative and to i me to imagine how these situations with evolve is peacekeepers were not present to undertake these certainly efforts. 6 in many places, mercenaries are filling the void, including those russians. Wagner, group and as criticism of Un Peacekeeping gross critics, a reforms are needed in order to overcome this crisis of confidence. Been monahan for inside story the. All right, lets go and bring in our guests in new york was the condo executive director at the sad institute and a former special advisor to the president of molly and london, tara oconnor founder and executive director at africa. Risk consulting ad in geneva will cache a copy of the a former you in resident entry, monetary and coordinator for suzanne. A warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story location. Let me start with you today. So the r c is set to begin discussions with you and authorities for an accelerated withdrawal of un peacekeepers from december 2024, to december 2023. I want to get your impressions as far as if you think that as a realistic timeline, why not . Its good to. Yeah. So i think the can do it. I dont, i dont think its going to make much difference to the situation on the ground. Theres the right to leave some months early. Okay, so let me also ask you, you know, Un Peacekeeping missions and after are coming under a lot of criticism. You, of course, have experience as a un peacekeepers in sudan. Um, are you in peacekeeping missions actually working anymore . They used to work when the bought the much more comprehensive, the operations, which made the piece which took the key piece and was bits the piece. But in recent decades, debit gone from them and did not be as well. Resource as been made to of course, really know much about quarter to a world where that keeps providing the peacekeepers on the nations funding. Them are long ahead. So they are more and more effective and i think that should be put out to them is the most um, un peacekeepers have also worn out their welcome. In other places they have left to the end star for region to 2020. At the urging of the government, molly is now the latest country to them and they pull out. I want to ask you, what do you think will happen in molly . Once peacekeepers pull out. Oh, thank you so much. Uh, since they decisions a window, they mention it from molly. Uh were still having a lot of things going on. So as we mentioned it, we have different realities according to the countries and it gives you according to conflicts. Also the case of molly, the un mission was, will compile the they, they, the areas where the different and us get fathers, the former rebill groups now to send it to the, of the Peace Agreement in the governmental model. So now combined is by right after the minis, my history, a little bit of problems in the field, then reality and see what municipal was bringing for the piece. Is that the, the in the country most . Uh, let me also ask you from your vantage point, what exactly is the alternative here . If peacekeepers continue to pull out, is that going to pay the way potentially for private armies just to take over more and more. I mean, who, who fills the void in this instance . So now before you get into the division, uh, uh, withdrawing from molly, the government managed to migrate and transition and no authority to star recruiting a lot of my god, a military person. Those. If you have seen in the past couple of miles, but the problem itself is the question of the presence of the un keeping missions in model. Because when we finish at the beginning with the monday of 42100. 00 events. Uh, it started changing. And the objective also start changing. And finally the just relies. It is not necessary to have 16000 people in the ground and not even starting what people expect from this mission. So feeling the got by them, so by the transition and megan hobby is the one point to also the different partners, as they said, uh, even some se, buckner groups and might even say Direction Centers is kind of feeling. Youve got these empty spaces living by dimensions, or i want to speak more specifically about the issue of un peacekeepers and the d r. C. The presence of u. N. N d r c. It has become increasingly unpopular in recent years. Critics say thats due to a failure of you in peacekeepers to protect civilians from violence. Now, earlier this month, protests are demanded. The peacekeepers go, theyve accused that you end up doing little to protect in the congo. These army cleared demonstrations. Dozens of people were killed. What is the current level of anger about the presence of you and peacekeepers, and d r c. And how exactly did we get to this point . Well, i think it does take the levels to bind girl pretty high and you know, which is that she led to this cool for rapids withdrawal. I think when you have to look at where we got to and, and how this came about. And i mean, if we look at the origins of the mission to come go, it was at a very particular time when the country was actually imploding. And there was a significant risk that it would split apart. But definitely over the years that the u. N. Has been the its in its ability to actually deal and to improve the security for civilians has been severely and pat. Its also, you know, the terrain is impossible. The region is largely pretty much from a Military Point to view lots, the ungovernable because of its boss size because of the, the poor city of infrastructure. And also because of the, i think the results are lack of willingness amongst the lack of commitment and to really deal with the massive problems that the eastern eastern congo faces. I mean, you know, without actually ever having, you know what, you know when you havent been there, as i, as i have, it is extraordinary to think about the size of the area the, the, the un forces meant to govern. Its impossible. Yeah. Its a i want to follow up with you and ask you about the fact that the u. N. A has admitted to shortcomings, but theyve also said that without peacekeepers in these areas, things would be much worse from your vantage point. What did you say to them . I think thats supposed to be true, but that they all going to be replaced as far as i understand it by a Regional Force of military from the regions. And im, i dont think they will necessarily fire any better. And the real risk is that you will get much more profiteering as we sold before the u. N. Force came in because youre talking also about an area that has a numerous mineral wealth, but many, many countries, many region know players and many countries have a great deal of interest in that goes cables and further south in d. C cop. Uh, and so no one has to guard against that. But i do think this is also comes into a context of political context to cheer political context that we have to take into account to. And that is where African Leadership is seeking African Solutions for african problems. And so the, you know, the, you and the departure from molly, from congo and replacement with local forces or Regional Forces. Im seems to me to be the next step most. There are a analyst, an expert to a blamed the lack of success of peacekeeping forces in africa on the operational mandates of the missions in africa. And theyve said that those mandates restrict the forces activities. What do you say to that . So this is actually a really Great Depression and obviously, but it understand the ending that to you around the un mission as well as like we just mentioned about what happening in the, in the code from your question. The same thing happened into molly a bunch of the days where Mission Personnel were involved in the lot of scandals including sexual scandals and also the context reality of 5. So that maybe people in pollution wondering a lot of patients why these guys are here. Even they are not really didnt you . I didnt find them through conflict and also to see the fire and understanding the case of molly demanded when really not just the whole and even the definition of why this 15000 people more than that because 15200 something. What in mind didnt even not eligible to be whatever wed expect from them in terms of uh, what would be showing this stuff in addition of it is the turning of the national forces. But the past couple of miles before dimensional weight. 50 molly, do you envision of with a new face, the much more money and the resist is on the truck man area. Been busy keeping. So we already know the u. N. A has already adjust the is focusing on this area. As also the government of molly in and local public to reach is, are working to do the same. So now, if the money is going to this, to these areas, are they really going to a peacekeeping mission . So does that mean really, very complex and very and argumentative around whats going on here . The other side, about emission for like when you take such a part of the world, what dimensions be like a decade. And then one of the bridge reality in, in the conversation ended right. It just in this countrys location most uh, actually uh, in his answer brought up one of the points that i wanted to ask you about it. And thats about the fact that peacekeeping forces have also been accused in the past of committees. Human rights abuses, including pervasive allegations of sexual abuse and exploitation. There have been you in investigations into these allegations, but they, they rarely lead to prosecution. How much have scandals like that a tainted these pieces, keeping missions, i think, scandals like that on the computer. Impunity that comes off to that. How does the so think brought to the dog name to such operations. You know, its not really the you in the come on sold because the, so it does come from many different countries. And there you go to those countries and the purchases off of accountability and just as take place in those countries. But very often the countries are a shame, what happens they are kind of embarrassed, they protect their own kind and the poor and gets the blame for that. So i blame not the us, but i blame the, the big country so we should be skipped. This come all come different to be to full says bill discipline and the people plain. Uh, bring my pictures like bob, the rich desert, me blame. But do you know when the, when the soldiers, oh, well, no countries from me to these kinds of, if use is difficult to know, but that was worse than that. So it was a bit to goes to those countries as to why the, a lot of these us, what does it but is disciplined filled minus. So just to take part and be sensitive operations. Okay. If i could just follow up with you. Uh, but there is still a criticism by many that say that whether or not its local forces who may be committing those crimes. They do say, and they blame that you in for not really doing enough to make sure that people are the people are actually being put on trial. Uh they say that theres very little accountability. What do you say to that . Certainly from my time in the, in the you, in system, in a number of different uh, positions. Then you in the past crime, then un has made representations to the country as well. Citizens can be described, you know, that you want. It doesnt have a quote sitting in new york, youll be able to do these kinds of things. It is true that sometimes when you, when the leadership are often the us, they just shipped, im still stuck, pretty general downwards, is to timorous in terms of the same 2 countries which are misbehaving as to that, that they should not to do that. And then then off site sions that can be deployed against those countries. Like sort of more more of peacekeepers from those countries that has actually happened. For example, government is coming to no longer the blogs or certain units from certain countries will no longer be deployed. Then thats a very, very good thing, but this issue, a whole kind of the birth date is not just unique peacekeeping. It is part of a general climate. Impunity that affects my name or the other areas in relation to the recent security im associated to. It shows the standards in gusting from toppled around, but it boulevard and demick where, where, where, what goes up to what goes where it was, where it would be processed in return for jobs in organizations. So. So in that sense, may need to take a bigger view and then look at why the accountability is like, its easy to blame, but you, when, as the central come on, the, to the dont have the means and tools at the disposal to be, uh, do a new stop at tara, it looked like you were reacting to quite a bit of what mortgage was saying that i wanted to give you an opportunity to come sit. Yes. I mean, i think there is a question of it of accountability. It goes back to the original financing. It goes back to financing of these operations, where to some extent youve got the global knowles as its becoming moon really funding label. Because most of the financing comes from very wealthy g 7 and g, g 7, countries to finance in poor countries of 4 countries treats to be up to leading these peacekeeping operations. Whereas, you know, what you really want for peacekeeping operations is professionally trained peacekeeping operations that just do that. So i think the, the financing, the stuffing, the training and the operations of probably need to face for full. And i mean, this being Un Peacekeeping forces being asked to leave is a crisis and confidence in the you as the but you have got this know, the, you know, financing from the global troops from the, from the imaging market. Countries in the countries with a, a that students have the tools, all the training and all the equipment, and certainly in east and congo. Do you know its a very of the, the infrastructure is just not the need. The ability to protect people requires all because much small aerial, a cape capacity and thats overseeing norm is expensive and im very difficult to run it. So i think a lot of referral is required without throwing out the without throwing out the Un Peace Keeping missions. I think they, they just need upgrade a. Uh huh. Uh most, uh, i wanna ship focus here a little bit to, to something that was brought up a little bit earlier in the show. Um, you know, in many places we or are you in peace keepers have either left or are considering leaving mercenaries are filling the void. Were talking about everybody from Russias Wagner group to other groups as well. Uh, wagner has worked for governments and militarys and Central African republic, libya. Molly . Sedan, exciting rebel groups there. Um, what is the outlook if this continues before that i want to like, uh about what my police say about the accountability ended sensibility of uh, disorders and how to take them out from the minutes my had i, i completely disagree with this because this really the reason im not. If the notifications they are supposed to be higher babbling missions to our country for when the right we see them as an invasion of forces. Because the mind that you have already very more of your government expanding the government is not following the government stage and the government up for an hour. And 15000 people come to help the government and also create a system which we defend them to. What we call the categories because there was no be built after the signature of the agreement. So that means the government ended, the former rebuild the groups on bills, groups i dont know, or in fact, so the ones who are fighting the government, ive got to do to some of these groups. Maybe even it doesnt suffice. So the question is, why the mission a space in the city is s as the same as is the same area. What did i fucking in pushing and pressuring the population and it can not affect back and even to be the type in the box. So this is what we should learn from in moving forward, different what this mission to go forward and about the integrity and honesty. Images of regions also is not just about the countries providing much dig it to our countries as you envision, which is a Global Organization to maintain and also protect civilians all around the world as we can in the vision in other parts of the world. So they have kind of presented us, was that really t on the network ups. So just when they accept to send them and if it is not about sending a family, i mean its a document is always about what, oh yeah. And when a skin does happen, you should have it procedures and protocol to make Justice Blake justice as every single situation. No otherwise itself cannot do some kind of process or was it just it gains by the press on the field . So how can you imagine if the, from definitive in molly or nothing volume to make justice for them so they can not because of all the presenter the slow and is happening in new york city. So this all the things you run up to be very careful when defending by selecting people to spending. If you needed the money that you sent me to, or to engage with either by any means for tentative groups in the field. Most a, im sorry to interrupt you, let me stop you there. Ill get back to you with my original question in a minute, but i do see more cash reacting to what youre saying. So im going to give you a chance to jump in to talk just inside. Its great in an ideal world. But uh, we have to understand that the peacekeepers have diplomatic immunity, yukon. Just follow the impulse the going see, im going to have committed a sec to these or whatever, and bring them to me all that and put them up one that is not course, that there is no prism. There is no research. So, you know, we must not let the countries get away with this. The past is that many developing countries use the contributions of these keep us as a way of earning the revenue. And because theyve got money for every soldier this set to send up. And so what, yeah, subsidizing that quote is back home. All the peacekeepers, austin, because the a part getting states for which that come sometimes very often the find as much is the state, but it says what does the somewhere else rather than the back of the country, creating the tools and may have so i dont think that this isnt kind of the matter. Oh, but you wouldnt be having the in the responsibility. Its a, its a combination of the 2. Maybe we need good need International Call time in need of it to be sure the process as the building this morning in terms of just disappointing these people. And thats why i think code quite honestly, but now were moving need to region of these different more and more because nobody wants to be a variety of this complex emit, okay, montgomery. So im sorry, im sorry to interrupt you as well, but, but we dont have a lot of time left. I do want to get back to mussa tara, i see that you want to jump in as well. Ill get to you in just a minute. Most i do still want to ask you, i want to ask you just a few moments ago, which is, what will the implications be if we start seeing more of these mercenary groups, these private armies going into these countries . Oh, so 1st of all, people are looking for solutions and it would be probably the army is or it would be viruses do for the various groups. Our country is like literally because each end to support. Boy, how are you going to hire . Mentioned that or is this your state and you mentioned its one different places. But now when divisions the Un International and based on sales, people in the countries have to look for us and that the, because we cannot just seat and look at people dying. But the problem with this problem, it is also the door to report to anybody. So when it happens to you want to abuse suggestions me to get a report of the videos, the part to no one. So this is a very dangerous situation. And then they also just problem it all means are missing this week time again, the person will be implying that this is not for me. The, because this is about the business, this is not about your model, right . Isnt about humanity. This is not about this is how to present money related formulations. So they would not be, there would be them or the, the, you would not be in the same page. Maybe that can be done just this, suggest on something. One of the implication of russia in this is this, uh, this thing is because the minutes of the holding up for a leg broke in silver stay there is, uh, a wagner, google root. Can you just fill in the, uh, do chris from the government. Mm. So with the government. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And what was that . Im sorry to cut you off again. Well, we just have a couple of minutes left. I know tara wants to jump in and tara, i also want to ask you about a point that most it was raising there, which is that, you know, there has been a lot of debate as to what laws cover, private armies. And if private armies and mercenary groups can actually be held to account when and if their fighters commit crimes, i mean, this is a real growing concern, right . You know, they govern, they largely govern themselves. And as we have seen in, in, and we only have to look at a recent to not to this in the history, you look at sierra leone. If you look at the private military companies that goes in both the, in my view, they actually excel rated. They increase the conflict because the main interest was to actually get paid us as was said earlier, to get paid either in diamonds that we have the whole lot diamonds debacle. So its definitely a know, we also see that the, the for the most and race where actually seeking how they were going to be paid, putting pressure on pressure on the various military contests that have now i matched in molly and in between 5. So that should be paid directly, either concessions or action goes. So its um, you know, the commercial elements, the lack of accountability and also the ineffectiveness um we sold it to the wagner group, failed completely in tampa delgado and a company in northern mozambique. And what was required was a regional, a single country intervention by rwanda minutes, a single country and 2 bedroom to restore order to cover the got it affective news. Yes sir, i do apologize. We have run out of time. So were going to have to leave the conversation there. Thanks so much to all of our guests, most a condo to our oconnor, and well catch computers. And thank you to for watching. You can see the program again any time by visiting our website, obviously. Right. Com and for further discussion, go to our Facebook Page at facebook dot com, forward slash ag inside story. You can also during the conversation on text, our handle is at a inside store for me and how much enrollment holton bye for now. The on the stories of hope and inspiration show a document to ease from around the world that celebrates county and resilience in the times of time on the phone. And the wait for the 19 agent games is out of the fleets from across asia, a gathering in china supplies laid out for 481. 00 gold medals. Special coverage and analysis from 12023. 00 on the. Ready a great in this house tug at the headquarters of russias black seems strange inc. Find me. Im in a series of recent attacks independent sit on the i dont know about us and this is all. Does it live from dell hom, also coming up . Sedans, routing council chief speaks to all g 0 warning. The months long conflict could spread beyond his nations borders. Were going to travel deep into the remote opulence mountains to see