Totally, believe me, and lets say this is fatal. Eh, belonging to some kind of community or people often enter into some kind of relationship and do not understand what awaits them there. Where does this lead . What is this all about . It may lead, so be a little more careful here a little slower, what is called because if you rush to conclusions, if you rush with your emotions, then you may lose, you may not succeed, but people of art have such pointed fingers, and sometimes. It has more to do with some kind of eh. Well, a person can play the king of anyone, but not be, because in practical life he is not able to often apply this and become. Here is some kind of real leader, uh, leading , im not afraid of this word, a lot. And if this finger is more square and we see its ending is so square here, we we clearly have a practical streak. This is the case when a person doesnt just want something and he strives for it and preaches it. He does something for this, its a practice that he knows. This is a leader, if you like, who is guided by practical actions, logic, understanding of processes and is ready to participate in this, and not just command. But if, nevertheless , this finger also expands in such a way, like on a canopy, who this happens extremely rarely with a vegetarian finger, but these, of course, are very complex people. Its, well, some kind of authoritarian aggressiveness. I would say desire, and the power of desire to know only that a person thinks only what he believes in; he is not ready to listen to others. This is the need to rule and promote exclusively your ideas, but this is quite difficult; people are people who can. To achieve some kind of uh power levels at any cost, and to be quite intolerant , to impose your own rules and, in fact, to get along with them is very difficult. These are not the highest impulses. Its more of a necessity fix your power in the material world, in some material way. You and i have now only come into contact with the beginning of these vegetarian signs and principles on the hand, and many, many interesting things await us, because we will talk not only about the potential, but about what will be written on these fingers and not only on fingers connected to jupiter and it was a witty podcast. I was with you svetlana dragan. This podcast is a must read. Im looking at batnikov. My guest today is natalya usha. Uh, musician, lead singer of the group the mill and we are discussing, uh, the argentine writer jorgelu and suborchis and his image of the world, like a library, natasha, hello. But tell me, please, somehow the chilavis group melnitsa is associated with it, probably after all. Eh, with some fantasy games, maybe with the lord of the rings, biowulf, irish sagas, then suddenly you choose the theme of borhis and it seems that this is unexpected. Yes, but if you know you well, you are a candidate of psychological sciences, a linguist and, in general , the worlds of borhis. They contain Everything Possible plots and please tell us what you have in common with this writer. Why do you love him . Ill tell you, yes, ill tell you why. I chose this particular writer for our meeting, you see. If i had chosen some kind of scandinavian studies or celtic studies, i would have spoken here as a professional on this topic. I would include a lecturer like natalya andreevna, a professor at the department. And now we ll talk about registers, irish sagas, blah blah blah. Well, this is probably not very interesting for podcast literature. So i i decided that i probably wanted to stay. In this case, not a specialist, not a teacher, but a professional reader. That is, this is what i personally find interesting to read, what makes me happy, like readers in literature, especially since i somehow correctly noted. Im not a literary critic. Moreover, i am not an espanist. Im a linguist, and therefore its exactly the same as in all medical systems. I say, hello, im natasha. Im a professional patient. Here. Today i want to be a professional reader on borhis was a professional reader. He somehow it is this one who emphasizes e in hers. This is exactly what my role was to read it. Yes, this is exactly what is close to me, because until the end of his life he is absolutely in love with the process of reading. This is very visible, even in those essays that he read when he was already completely blind, it is very clear how interested he is, in general, in principle, in the very creation of the text and the relationship between the text and language, since uborkis was a scavenger, he is terribly interested in this very thing babylonian confusion of languages, which can be ordered by the notorious hexagons of the Babylonian Library somehow organize or disorganize. Do you remember he has it . Eh, an absolutely wonderful moment in one of the short stories. He remembers when the boys closed their books at night. He thought that the letters in them scattered and mixed and was surprised that they did . Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes, yes lets tell the viewer a little. Who is borkhiz . In general terms, this is a writer who lived in argentina and wrote in spanish, although he knew many other languages. Yes, he worked somewhere from the thirties to the eighties of the xx century, a very long , fruitful life for a writer. Despite the fact that he became blind during his life. And in general, it would seem that this should have complicated his work, but no, he continued to work and created such Wonderful Worlds and images, labyrinths or worlds like libraries. Well, its interesting that he worked with a small form. This man, who has not written a single novel, has at least been nominated for something, and i understand him, because i am also regularly asked natalya why dont you write an opera . I say you know im not mine topic big form big form. This is not my topic. That is, even if i take on such a thing, i will express everything that i want to say within the first two issues there. And the characters will continue to bore me. Ill give it all up, because the story about the assembly is so rich, each story contains some terribly exciting detective plot. Even a charade puzzle isnt scary; its complicated. These are his short stories, and here we must definitely remember whose writer borhisa was extremely fond of and respected, of course, by the edgaralls. Well, yes, that is, he is in many ways relies on po and other charades. Yes, like the stolen letter and similar things, that is, borhis relies heavily on but he continues. This work continues to bring this story to the absolute, as in the story about uh, about ebenhakan, who died in his own labyrinth, when it turns out that the killer is actually the murdered one , this one, who is very often his uh, well, this charades and puzzles. Eh, the images are repeated. I even wanted to talk to you about this story from diverging paths. Yes yes, yes, which is dedicated to the labyrinth and is probably the most powerful of his stories. He is also a detective for some time, because until the very last moment we dont understand that murders are murders, and they happen all the time, that is, uh, murder is not what it seems, and with him this plot often goes through. It seems to be a detective story and is connected with a labyrinth and mirrors. Yes, from finding yourself. Here it is interesting that i read this garden of forking paths. It worked out for me, finally. Why borkhiz works with small form. I realized that he himself created this labyrinth from the text. Yes, and here from short, repeating plots similar to each other. He made up such countless recursions. Yes, he has mirrors in his labyrinth, which ultimately make it endless. This is such a beautiful image. And it is so applicable to absolutely everything. Here in our screensaver there was a picture of the us sea. Well, thats exactly right. Same thing, just escher. Naturally, for the visual, this happens in graphics, and for the cleaning lady, this happens in literature. Yes . It is sher yes who is truly similar to the figurative world of borkhiz. Thats why we cant, yes, this is this, this is the tape, this is exactly this mobius motif of recursion, repeating, and so on. Borkhiz was a man of encyclopedic memory. I think i know what his secret was. Thats right, judging by the fact that he uses this labyrinth in the labyrinth. He places some hooks so that he himself does not get lost in this labyrinth. He scatters crumbs yes yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, that is, he uses classical renaissance techniques philosophy. This is a nosiological technique, a technique for ordering consciousness, which is called the palace of the mind; it was invented by such a cool thinker of english origin , raymond louis, and he came up with such an ordering system. Knowledge, ordering of memory, ordering of those facts that are contained not like in Sherlock Holmess trash attic, but precisely like in borhiss endless labyrinth, where for each mortgage we see dedicated specifically to this raimondula. Uh, ramindevouls logic machine, so called i tried to figure it out, but i honestly couldnt understand the circuitry, its a complicated thing. It requires a certain habit. Just get straight into this matter, that is, but when you really, really suddenly begin to understand, you understand how simple it is, how simple it is, that is, i use my mind. I have it. Hes quite strange. Eh, but there are also hooks and clues, they are mostly visual, that is , a certain image that refers to another image, to another image, and to another similar to the image, like uh hmm mmm in the concept of borhis cabbella, why was he interested at all . Yes, this is a very important topic, his mare constantly appears on his mind and he studied it himself. Yes, and she is interesting to him. Again , also as an ordering tool, as a tool for studying language cognition, that is, exactly. This is the concept. Eh, the pentateuch of the torah, like one gigantic god and tree stretched out and deployed in all variants. Yes, uh, the tree of sliferot, yes, the tree of sephiroth, which i actually really love this concept, because it can be applied to any spiral or well, spiral structure from dantes circles of hell, to the dna spiral it seems to me, uh, how correctly it came with a ring in the form of the torah. Beautiful magical ring of books, uh, enclosed in the ring of uharhis there is a game and it seems to me that the game is also important for you and this can be seen in your work, but this is a kind of play of meaning , a play of symbols, a play on words and a very important image, when the whole is no more than its component parts, that is, when in one, there is a multitude in a certain unity. Yes, but this unity is no more than each of its components parts. That is, they need to be connected precisely with his love for small things. It is precisely what all these components that he must contain. Place it in a very laconic form. You know, whats interesting is this concept of the game, which he, of course, always has, we see how he gets a kick out of it. This is exactly how he takes one and turns his labyrinth upside down. Yes , heres the inside out, and hes so wow, how cool everything is, and we know the writers who follow. Uh, to the behests of jorge our luis, and who turn out, for example. This is umbert eco, of course. And what kind of relationship did they even have, that is, were they somehow connected in real life, since there is, i dont know if they were connected in real life, but they knew each other without a doubt, that is, without doubts. They knew and you see, it turns out to be an absolutely wonderful piece of writing. Hello, i adore albert eco because he appears in the name of a rose. Here is this monstrous blind villain library monk jorge who denies the existence and right to exist of aristotles comedy book because whats going on with the character . Well, an obvious hint, yes, the library recor, but if we dig, yes further, then we understand that in this way umbert eco takes off his beautiful italian hat and says hello to borhis, because here, of course, behind borhis is his character overloz, who medieval pride. He writes a treatise, and he collides. Well, yes, an arab doctor, teacher, philosopher, he is faced with the aristotelian concepts of tragedy and comedy, and he does not understand them. Poor guy uhhuh, that is, in general, everyone is looking for something that borhis doesnt have sense of humor. No, i think that he just showed in such a crooked way that he really appreciates borhis game and that in this way, in general, the belief from which borhis sees in the mirror, in which he continues to believe , he will at some point understand , what is a comedy, but in emberts monastery the ecolibrary burns down and the manuscript burns down the monarchy itself. Well, thats a different story. The world is a library. This is our work there, probably these are manuscripts, how do we not know whether this will become a book, whether it will be included in the World Library . Yes, these are the manuscripts they are burning, natasha, as a convinced neoplatonian, i believe that the manuscripts are burning, but , of course, shadows remain on the walls of the cave, that is , our work is for eternity, and the manuscripts are burning, no matter what Woland Bulgakov says. Well, lets listen to the song the hand of the writemill. Now is the time of fire, dont let me in, im like rusting poetry, but here the invisible one is waiting. Be careful what kind of help door remove yourself they didnt say, but they really say it. And a step back wont change. He is my friends. Oh my enemies. How beautifully they burn. They also say, we won, its a cigar they didnt tell you, but theyre telling the truth. And dont take a step back, my friends. Oh , my enemies, how beautiful, they burn all around madly, then my beloved is not up to fame. As if ripe, here are my friends, my dears, how beautiful and with your hands this podcast is a must read. Im looking forward to the batch file. My guest is natalya usha , musician, lead singer of the melnitsa group, candidate of philological sciences. Were talking about horheluis in archis, you know, borkhiz, in my opinion, he works like hes lying down. That is , he takes some of these short pieces forms he has an Excellent Knowledge of mythology, an Excellent Knowledge of various subjects, it is clear that the man has read all his life, yes, but uh, he has not had an active life. My whole life was spent in books. Yes, but he was actually also the director of peace. But he still has time, that is, he operates time back and forth. That is why he has this al what asia crossroads in a series of paths, it is mentioned there, there is this chinese one then to yes, he comes. Heres to this, that is, death will not crumble into dust, that is, control above the golem is also in the correct word. And in the correct letters and this is exactly the opportunity. Work with letters back and forth, that is, write. Erase write. Erase this absolutely amazing unlimited control over dead matter, which only the magician acquires. Yes, this is the form he is clearly. I think i got it too. Yes, you know, i, uh, recently considered orhal, mm, the philosophy of endio, warch, and there, uh , a lot of mention was made of such an image as mirrors, that uh, orhal loves a space in which there are a lot of mirrors, and a mirror is the same borhis has a very important theme, that is, even in his labyrinth there is a person. Finally he comes to the mirror. That is, if he goes through the labyrinth, he comes to the mirror and meets himself and the overlay, from which he looks in the mirror and disappears, and maybe even the vivir disappeared. This is all that, as it were, when he begins to understand the essence of things, he disappears from the mirror. Tell natasha what do you think, that borhi is blind, during his life it is clear that he read a lot, and he even writes himself about the fact that i actually did not live. I have no idea, what was happening there in my country, because i spent all the time in the library. I spent all my time in books. But tell e this fact that a person becomes blind, yes, and finds himself in this world of darkness. That is, this is some kind of forced disability. So, what do you think, uh, did this set influence now, because i have a feeling that the thing that he wrote already in the seventies there remained stronger, so they became more lyrical and precisely some kind of introversive, sharpened directly. It works in short form. But he has very deep details. That is, for example, he writes that a man who is still approaching the sea. He has not yet seen this sea, but this sea is already splashing in his blood. This is very precise behavior. Yes from the sea. Yes, the notorious platonic shadow. That is, you understand, a blind man, he has a straight line. So that platos cave with shadows, yes, he does not work with visuals. He already works with archetypes, ideas, eidos, and images of things and understand, he works directly. Lets talk more about this library of babel. How do you imagine her . And in in this world he is a librarian, is he a systematizer or is he a reader or how do you see it . That is, this world of hexagonal ecology. Describe it, how you dont understand anything about it, a hexagon, a hexagon its a honeycomb, that is, its such a hive. Thats why i have bees in my ears today. This is also not without reason. Youre all about signs. Im all about signs. Well, of course, if we talk about the office, then you need to operate with its tools, that is , operate with signs, so, of course, im all about signs, in fact, he has this babylon Babylonian Library. These are truly gigantic hives. That is, i can imagine that, just like bees, there is an extremely complex hierarchy of creatures, that is, in the world of the library. There must also be a phantasmagoric hierarchy in the office. And i think that he is, first of all, a reader, an enthusiastic reader who rushes through these honeycombs, hexagon to hexagon, and finds Something Interesting for himself, and it seems to me that in order to become a librarian of the library of babylon. Theres a long way to go you need to go through initiation. Yes, you need to enter some kind of orminal phase, yes, go through the association, that is, find this notorious tetragrammaton, or at least its semblance, that is, jump to another step. Yeah, development, and then in front of you these hexagons will be ordered, will open up and become permeable in the uh story. Well, i dont even know. Eh, probably these are isa, and maybe the story e four cycles. Uh, hes just trying to systematize, maybe all his knowledge is endless, hes giving a theory that there are only four plot in world literature, and we all endlessly repeat this plot. Uh, taking the fortress. Well, for example, uh or and yes and homecoming. Well, the example is also a classic dc which returns to the stage and e search is probably a broader concept, but he gives examples of timurkas bird, which is simultaneously a multitude of birds and one bird, which contains this multitude and, in general, this too the image of god yes, to which we era any ancient plots, well, the ancient epic literature of travel thats all the search and suicide of god yes, the sacrifice of sacrifice is something that we can see in the bible and in narnia there, well, in general , there are a lot of european myths, yes, that is, like a horse sacrifice, that is, uh, a ritual that can, which accompanies the kings ascension to the throne, that is, the sacrifice of a divine being is precisely the most initiatory thing. Its out of all these wandering stories that remind us of a leap to a new level. This is gods sacrifice uhhuh its this one again. Uh, whats his name . Hokan in his small labyrinth is that the killer of abkhan khakan himself becomes abkhan khakan, yes, that is, he is the one who is killed in this state. In fact, he was the creator, in general, of all this murder and an imitator. That is , he repeats cleaning there very often. This is the plot. This is like an initiation, thought out and influenced by the agent himself. That is, he sacrifices himself its such a lonely thing, too, yes, its like hanging yourself on an ash tree. Here. Well, again this is a wandering plot. Here you go wanted to stay away from scandinavian studies. No it worked. This podcast is a must read. Im looking at bantnikov. My guest is natalya usha, musician, lead singer of the melnitsa group, candidate of philological sciences. We are talking about jorge luis borgis natasha a. As for borhiss personal life, i was very touched by the story of ulrik e from the book of sand from the collection book of sand, where he meets a woman. They spend only one night together. Eh, there is clearly this blindness to mythology. There the heros name is sigurty. Yes, that is, this all relates to scandinavian mythology and the heroine name is ulrika, but it looks from one side. Just like people who met in a hotel spent the night together in the morning forever. We separated. Yes, this bathroom stand here, and to borhis it seems like such a failure into some other world, as if this meeting was very important. And it seems very romantic to me. The mirror looks and speaks also play a role there. Now we still couldnt resist scandinavian studies, because the fact that his heroes are siegfriedsigut is very important, because, of course, borkhiz with his mmm amazing erudition. He knew what a certain irresistible, not predetermined meeting with a woman meant for a scandinavian hero, because a woman is for the scandinavians. Thats basically mythology. This is fate, a woman who is capable of changing fate, so this is the mysterious ulrika who is dating sigurd. She makes him look. Its just a completely different level. This is initiation, yes, meetings, if its something else, that is , its like an onanka, you know, which is through a tiny death, because initiation its always a small death imitation of death. She forces him to take it to another level. That is right here. I love borhis so much in such aspects as the indoeuropeans, because , of course, they are based on european cultures. Yes, he is english, yes, yes, yes, yes, and he feels these indoeuropean mythological cliches very subtly, maybe not even always consciously, of course, because you understand this directly from me . Thats when i see, this is the kings sacrifice of this womans fate. I think, well, my good one. How its nice to see the wipers, lets talk about his personal life. Hes been around all his life. You can say lonely, that is, there are some women there. I see dedications of women in different stories of different women, women were, they inspired, but mostly. Yes, he lived, uh, rather lived with his family there with his mother. Moreover, we have bread. Well, at the end of my life , after my mother died, when my mother let me go. Yes, this is a freudian story. He married his secretary or some beautiful literary girl. Here. Uh, what do you think . His relationships with women are so strange , they are somehow reflected in his prose, how can i tell you, huh . Not a love author at all, he is not a love author at all, that is, for him , rather, these are all women in prose. Well, and there in the same alpha yes, this is his beloved. She is already dead by the beginning of beatrice yes beatrice of this viterbo. That is, in principle, in his stories, women appear as ideas rather. Oh, this is very interesting, that is, exactly. This is the dead lover archetype. This is beatrice with some by her countless past lovers or this is evidence, yes, the woman is destiny, who guides the hero through initiation. That is , it seems to me that all women are his characters. Yes, that all the female characters, they are not endowed with special emotionality, but they are endowed with power, they are endowed with power , they are endowed, and yes, they are endowed with a temporary function, as it were, which must lead the hero to that point in time in space at which borhis wants from see this hero. That is, he never received the nobel prize. You are very offensive. I read it very sadly. Yes, almost 25 times , well, he was nominated a lot of times and each time he didnt receive something. Yes, marks all the time, but marquis was beaten by a marker. I went, although margasa. I love it too. Yes, but i like borhis precisely because he gave birth to so many. That is, he seems to be a quiet library, you know, quietly, quietly, but inside he introduced a lot of concepts , then we into pop culture, because i read him, i see him and murakami with chronicles is called money falls into certain, and the corridors are there another time, and there in 1979 the whole Roman Christian and crash, where e. There, people end up in iran during the revolution and are saved in order to end up in some magical time slice of another and do some rituals, eat black food there. And thats it, in general, cleaning. This is what he asks