Example was the electricians put in the electrical outlets at 15 inches to the bottom of the boxes. It says in the code at the rough floor stage, and when they looked at the check list to look at the plans what was going to be at the finished product included an inch and a half light concrete over the floor because it was multistory so for fire resistance rating and then bring the finished floor up and the electrical outlets would have been non compliant at that stage. Catching it at the rough electrical stage is a big catch. Actually the electrician that installed them was upset but his boss that owned the business was very happy because if it would have had to be done at final he indicated it would have put him out of business but also im in a small jurisdiction and in a small jurisdiction we all know about politics and so sometimes when politics come in play it affects when youre going to look at 100,000 fix and they know someone a little over your head, and theres other things that roll down so this checklist at that point and time made a big significant catch, and saved a whole lot of process. I think also a value of the checklist is sharing this with the contractor before they start work. I like to like preconstruction meetings share with the contractor this is what i am going to use to measure these things. Im going to use a 24inch smart level and not 8foot small level to check things and this is what i will use to check door pressure so they know at the beginning and this is from the inspector telling them this is what i will look at so think about it before you hit the first nail and sharing it with the contractor before work and contact the inspector before you start and architects we put it on the drawings for contractors as possible and wait a minute have we dealt with that the front end work. Thinking about what is coming. This is what the inspector is going to look for so i should look for it too before i start. How much education are you doing in your jurisdictions or communities both with contractors, architects and just with the community, your end users i consider myself one of your end users. What type of outreach or Community Education are you involved in and i would like to ask that of everyone. In San Francisco inspector Richard Halloran put together a very Ambitious Program which he has been almost every week a lunch seminar on a different topic and brings those in the private sector to come and talk about things. Im going to be doing something in august on historical buildings and . And some people have taught them so that education has been very helpful. As a Training Officer with the city of l. A. We have done outreach on several different topics. We have taken we have done three classes on cass training. I do a lot with the inspectors but were also doing outreach with architects and things like that want to come in as well and they have been very appreciative and in fact asked for more than i can actually accommodate, but ive also trained the Code Enforcement because we have another issue that we have buildings that are not having permits. Sometimes things dont meet what need to be done not because they were done 20 years ago because things have changed without permits and things like that, so they need to be brought in line with that as well. Many of our Code Enforcement officers are not trained in the chapter 11 b because theyre primarily residential inspectors, and so i have had to cross that barrier too because we typically only trained our commercial guys in it, and so we were missing a lot of things that could have been caught and so were starting to train on there for two reasons. One, were also seeing one of the things we hadnt taken into consideration because we have Residential One and two family dwellings and commercial inspectors who are different, but we got a lot of model homes that are set up, and they go through the plan check and there is parking. There is accessible routes. There are they have to have accessible bathrooms in these model homes or provide them elsewhere and they werent getting picked up by the residential inspectors, so the last couple of months i had to go through this with them and explain to them yes youre responsible for that. They said we dont look at sidewalks and when comes to Single Family dwellings theyre right whether its a walk way or what have you but when it comes to needing accessibility because they plan to use it as a live work in this case a model home, things like that they need to make the catch so theyre going to get those that are needing it, those in Code Enforcement and those with model homes will get a copy of the checklist as well and to help them understand they need to look at these things when normally not thinking about it. Thank you. Anyone else want to answer the outreach question . We have an email group for professionals, architects, and engineers so when we get updated information we do an eblast to folks. We encourage folks that come in, architects and builders and to go to the institute and we have a lot of classes and i sometimes feel and this is anecdotal and were in the bubble and the builders dont know what do you have behind the counter . No. This is public information. We will share it with you. We will tell you about the same training opportunities that we go to. We would love to see you there. It makes the process better. [inaudible] correct. I formally the executive director of the chamber of commerce in my city has my cell phone and direct line to my office. Gary was talking about politics. Thats just the reality. She also understands what we do and listens which is a gift for me so back to my earlier comment about small business. We hold workshops, outreach for Small Businesses. Im always available to go out and review an existing building regarding barriers and accessibility. And then informally its been really important to me as i am the current chapter president for the Valley Association of Building Officials to reach out to the other groups, the builders the architects, to the people that write the specifications. I mean there are many, many groups that are involved with this, and we put together Association Events just to informally mingle and its amazing the information that gets shared and the cards that get exchanged, and its really just staying engaged with that community. Right. Exactly. I was thinking along the same lines so as long as you keep up with the education committee, whatever group youre in. Maybe sure you continue to go to the classes. Put it out there youre having a class. Invite as many people as possible. Thats how you continue to build the trust with each other and get your compliance because a lot of times a change will happen in the code. The Building Official knows its changed and the inspector knows but the contractor doesnt know. The local designers in the town dont know either so if you invite them to the code change classes everybody is on the same page and know what the requirements are beforehand and design the projects to comply so we dont have issues down the road. I have a question and there are many years of experience represented on this panel and as you mentioned youre having folks that work for you who are of a certain generation and i think there is a spectrum represented in terms of what generation were representing here. I am curious for those of you who have been in the field sort of we will just say preada to now how has your perspective on access and the built in environment evolved not just on a professional level but on a personal level in all the years you have been doing this work . This is gary lehman and i can kind of answer this. Well, preada i was in construction, started my construction career back in 1976 but accessibility was still required because we had the 1961 standards and it was required to be accessible. Now, the understanding of what a curb ramp was supposed to be like because the standards was quite vague we did pour numerous curb ramps and tear them out and redo them and tear them out and redo them and trying to figure out what it was supposed to be where today its pretty much there as to what is specifically supposed to be for a curb ramp. The same thing was for the restrooms and it indicated that you had to have turning clearance and you had to have okay, it never gave a dimension where todays codes now it gives strict dimension, so thats come a long ways. Also in the 80s i was inspecting under the ansi standards and under some of the california accessibility standards codes and the ansi standards was quite again quite vague. Its what we went by in nevada in the casinos and i was inspecting them in nevada and yes they had to follow the guidelines of accessibility, but it was still so vague that as an inspector you didnt really know okay. What do we and how is it really supposed to be . Where today as an inspector you can go to the code and once again its more specific in telling you how it should be. There are the vague areas within it, but in most of it for a ramp or a curb ramp this is what we were having issues and problems with, or the size of a restroom or the layout of a restroom. This is what we had issues in the past and now its all been modified much accurate. Thank you. Anyone else want to offer a personal perspective . This is jeff james. I will offer my i see most of this as far as accessibility and stuff you fall into two groups. Those that have and those that will have. At some point in your life youre going to be able to access a public space and its important. Yeah i was thinking about this. The old phrase where there is a will there is a way. If people understood and not necessarily the job of the Building Department. If people understood its more than the code and its basic civil rights and its the right thing to do they might take it more seriously than a Building Code thing and this is probably related but a lot of the problems that i see in accessibility dont start at the first inspection with the building inspector. It goes back to the architects who dont design with dimensional tolerance, and if every Building Department will tell all of the architects to go to the access boards website and look at the study that they had david balace do about three years ago on dimensional tolerances and read chapter two. Theres three of them and its all about designing in tolerance. The codes have changed in recent years so there are few absolutes and more ranges but still when i look at drawings because i do some reviews too i see the absolutes still appearing. One in 12 for a ramp and 32 inches clear, and people dont realize that people cant build that way, so if they would all go to the u. S. Access boards website and look at the study and read chapter two and design the tolerance in their drawings by the time it gets to construction there is room for the contractor to move and you will have much more accessibility so it starts much sooner and that research is really important in Building Departments should let people know about it. Its interesting that you mentioned physical access and barrier removal as part of our nations civil rights laws and framework. Do any of you see yourself as supporting the disability rights, Civil Rights Movement . Or even being part of it . Absolutely. I started as kindly introduced 30 years ago in construction. Made my way into architecture, and the code at that time was one small book, the ubc, and it did have ansi standards but it was minimal and what i have seen over 30 years is an awareness of inclusion that something thats very important to me with my inspectors, with everyone in my division, department, and the ada really has assisted that, and others in becoming more aware, and i thankfully have a teenage and children in their 20s who poke me and keep me aware as well, but i see that as a very important component of my work. Yes. And were really educating the public. I have gone out on small jobs where you go there and say okay these are not meeting the requirements, and in one particular job the bar was not lowered for seating at 60 inches for accessibility, and the contractor, the owner they didnt want to take up their space, and i said its not something that youre doing to be nice. Its not something to attract people that have to be in a wheelchair and make it nice for them. Its part of what needs to be done. Its a civil right and i have done through and i have gone back to jobs after they have done they spent the money to get passed and they put it back in because they think theyre taking up space they want to use. A lot of time at bars the area we lower its a place for the waitress to come in and a service area and over and over again i insist before i sign the card that the isa is permanently installed so it cant be just something sitting there and remove it and use it for something else. I make sure that the areas that can be marked are marked and still sometimes they get changed back and its a shame that you cant reach everyone as important as it is but it falls upon building inspectors to understand what needs to be done and to educate and i think we will get there. We are Getting Better than it used to be in some regards as far as people understanding. I have seen isa on bathrooms that i would have a hard time able bodied to turn around in so having the sticker doesnt mean anything if you dont have the room, so thats where Code Enforcement comes in. Thats where if you have a permit thats where the inspector comes in and it doesnt start at the final and gee this is off. We have to change it. It starts at the beginning and letting them know its important and youre going to be looking at it and make sure its done correctly. When i was working at the center for independent living we would often provide consultation and advice to Small Businesses that wanted to know how they could improve access and fortunately sometimes it was after they had a complaint or legal action so one of the first things we would do is refer them to a cass and tell them you need to get professionals involved, but it was always startling to me how many Business Owners would just say they didnt understand that they had to provide access, and what that meant and they always blame you guys. Right. They always say but i passed inspection. [inaudible] i would simply add that accessibility is just become more prominent as a concept really as a result of ada. I guess i came up from a different world. 1958 when my younger sister was born with Cerebral Palsy and go through special education, having her friends of being one disability sort of another i just became more conscious of it and i think the hard part that we all get is representatives of the Construction Industry of the Building Officials department and the public that didnt have the opportunity to visualize and be able to explain we have grab bars for this reason because remember this is how it gets used, and so many Building Officials maybe put on the spot because they dont know a certain rational for why something is there and i would just encourage that it makes sense for everybody to understand the purpose of what were doing. Its not just to meet a code. There is some function that it really does help. [inaudible] yeah, i have a quick story here. A couple years back we were working with a Business Owner for a permit process for a candy store in the mountains and kicking and screaming about the requirements all the way but eventually complied and had a compliant business and i get this cold call three months later after the building was final and the Business Owner was apologizing to me and they called the board of supervisors and why are you making we went through the whole thing as gary alluded to and i asked why and having an accessible business was the best thing that happened and i asked him to explain that statement and with the tour buses going to yosemite he had a reputation of being a compliant business and all the thank yous he got from the public and that experience lead him to vol tarly update other businesses in the state. You should put him on a poster or something. I was shocked. I need to know where the candy store is and i go to so semmity and sometimes driving up there and its the reality. Can i get in there . Can i go to the bathroom . Can i shop . Yeah, i would like to know where the candy store is. I will tell my friends. Just to follow up on the question basically my career was moat vaitd by civil rights and the first architect recruited by a vista in the 60s and in the early 90s i went to l. A. And looking for a job and we had dinner in a couples house who had been involved in protests where they blocked traffic with their wheelchairs to get attention and so on, and all of a sudden it clicked in my head this is the same thing as civil rights marchers blocking traffic and things like that and i think thats the thing for the public there isnt that connection this is a civil right. Its just an obligation and until it gets to that point where people understand it really is it makes it a little harder. I dont know they will see the day when universal is the standard but that would eliminate a lot of that and we design for anybody. Anybody else want to add any thoughts . One quick one. Ive had very few mentors in my life but one significant mentor, tim sullivan and a former Building Official for the city of sacramento and tim at one point before i knew him put all of his inspectors in wheelchairs and sent them through Old Sacramento which is notoriously unaccessible, and that type of awareness is so important. That is one of our tasks as Building Officials and as regulators to increase that awareness, and thats part of my overview as an architect as well, but we dont just read black and white. We do a lot of interpretation and we have clients, and as Building Officials we have all the citizens of our jurisdiction and those who come into it, so it is a very, very important facet of what we do. For anyone on the panel how do you educate small Business Owners or contractors talk about sort of the range of access . Because i think oftentimes when speaking about the built in environment and barrier removal and people envision with disabilities but we should design for Code Enforcement and a range of disabilities, and visual impairment and all sorts of things so if you could talk about some of the lessor understood aspects of accessible spaces. One of the big problems that ive had with architects is well, theres two, the line on the stairs. They want to make it go away and i said you cant. The whole idea is so you can see it. With individuals with low vision. Low vision. They try to do something that meets it and looks like it fits there and i said thats not the point. Its supposed to stand out so they can see it. I had a couple of carpets and its not contrasting enough and they said there is no standard and there is a standard but its not codifyd and that and also trying to hide if you will, it is truncated dorms, not wanting to put that and its one that everybody likes to Say Something about because its hard for a person in a walker to get over the truncated dorms but different for someone with a different disability so people complain about it all the time and try to leave it out and a lot of architects try to hide it. Its a warning. You dont want to hide the warning. You are not supposed to camouflage it and working with people on that and in the current building were in its very odd how they have done this step and using trying to use groves to make it instead of using lining that makes it very hard especially in the evening and night time with the type of construction. Its a very looks neat but its not very functional with a set of stairs and the fact theyre using lines groves instead of the warning line it makes it very hard and yet a lot of architects still think that is okay. [inaudible] one of the this is commissioner dolim and the textbook and the examples that we all have in our career come up and i was trying to explain to a client with a strip mall and why they needed identification for the suites. We were arguing and no other way to see it and were in a vacant suite. I cant afford this and i have to go to the bankruptcy judge and get money because the property was in foreclosure and this isnt going to help anybody and right then the door was swung open and a lady that was blind and threw the door open and said is this the hair salon and i am late and is this suite 204 and like i prompted that but unfortunately it was really a situation you were talking about the signage. We were talking about the tactile signage that would identify the suites in a long door to different suites and low and behold the argument ended with the client and the tactile sign showed up the next week. Thats exactly what you have to do and your example came in the door so that was easy for you. I have given the example and they have some element that is not accessible and door knobs. I say would you hire a veteran. Of course i would hire a veteran. Would you hire a veteran that had an ied that blew up and they need a lever hardware to access the suite. Yes, i would hire that person. Okay go get the levers and get rid of