Im going to let you can. You are tuned into modus operandi. Its a job that you take on until you die. You had one of the worlds biggest organizations, spanning every country and every continent and every day, millions upon millions of people listen to your every word, your dictates can shape society. But were not talking about the ceo of a multinational corporation. Were talking about the pope this week. Well dig into the situation at the vatican as an ailing, 87 year old pontiff considers stepping down. All right, lets get into the m o. The pope francis board jorge mario portfolio in argentina. In 1936 was tapped to be the 266 pope, other Roman Catholic church over a decade ago. Hes the 1st pope elected from the america. The child of italian immigrants to one side is young, jorge study to become a chemical technician. But after a severe bout of pneumonia that saw part of his right along removed, he fell to calling to the church. He holds several post graduate degrees and has rustled. Many feathers among more conservative members of the church. But now the 87 year old pontiff says he may step down early, sending shock waves in the catholic community, especially with his most recent comments about the conflict in ukraine while speaking to swift broadcast or r a side saying that t as would show courage if it raised a white flag and entered peace talks with russia. Those comments had been harshly rejected and rebuked by the west end zalinski. Joining us to discuss pope francis and the role of the Catholic Church around the world is timothy j. Gordon. He is a catholic philosopher, author and pod, castor, his show called rules for retro grades, can be found on youtube and anywhere podcast, r syndicated, his latest book. The case for patriarchy is out now. Thanks for joining us. Tim. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. And so in late february we saw po francis once again be hospitalized briefly for the flu. I mean, hes an 87 year old man. We know hes had some Health Problems in the past. He has now publicly stated that showed his Health Getting the way of him performing his paypal duties. That he would step down as pontiff. Like his predecessor, Pope Benedict who was, i believe the 1st ever to do. So my question to you is, should pope francis do this and will this become a trend among future popes . And would that be a good thing or, or a bad thing . No, its not a good thing. It is arguably a very bad thing that po benedict, the 16th did it. Not just because the pontifical of francis has been so catastrophic, which it has. It was a bad thing in, in of itself. By the way, little correction. There was another pope who did it about 600 years before benedict the 16th. The reason that its, its not a strong correction, a fit correction is because that was essentially a, a young pope who didnt know what hes doing. He, he retired, absconded from the chair of peter a couple of weeks, maybe a month into the pond to get after not knowing what to do. This was not the case with benedict, the 16th who had been the number 2 in the church, the doctrinal chief, we called the cd f prefect, or you know, almost 3 decades under john paul. The 2nd before becoming pope, he was the presumptive pope ever knew. He would carry for the program of john paul the 2nd even before john paul, the 2nd passed away. So it was extra strange when benedict 16 stepped down in it this time of the years when, when we think about it from february and march, its been a strange ride for i think all the world but especially for us catholics in announcement by benedicts 16 in late february of 11 years ago that he would do so and most people know later that night lightning struck saint peters it had been done once before. By such way, a boy po, its been very, very bad for the church, largely because of who francis is. But also, just because it runs contrary to, weve had 266 popes. The notion of the pond certificate is that its a lifetime tenure, a lifetime appointment, and what, what has grown organically over the 2 millennia to plus millennia of christendom. According to Roman Catholicism is what we call the the vatican. The news refers to the vatican. This means the die cast or is like the congregation to the doctor and of the face, which i was talking about earlier. They helped even an old man pope, even an ailing old man pope who had say parkinsons disease like jump all the 2nd, had to still run the church from the chair of peter. And this is why its especially weird that benedicts 16 step down because he knew that the church is equipped to handle really all situations. J. P 2 had gotten very sick and he was test with, particularly in the doctoral area, keeping things running. And there are other die cast res besides this c d f as well. Thats the most important one. But there are others there 8 the categories. So its strange that he step down. It turns out that it, it could had a fascination with the fee ology of a pontiff who steps down for it for many decades. We know this from, from starting the earlier writings and some of the friends of benedict 16. And it seems to be an area of liberal theology. If i could borrow the expression, not that benedict was known as a liberal who was not, is known as a conservative francis as a true, liberal theologian loves the notion and said, i think in the 2nd or 3rd year of his pontificate before he was as old as he is now, when he was still in the seventys, i liked the idea of this. Well, of course the logical liberals loved the idea of innovation. And it wouldnt surprise me to see him stepping down. Of course the, the role of secular politics that liberals never give up power seems to be the only thing stopping frances from doing so now. But its an open question. I think its negative for the church. The church is equipped to have an old, aged, sick, infirm pontiff, even one whos suffering from a neurological disorder like parkinsons disease. And it makes it especially strange that benedict 16 did it. After being the number 2 guy, the go to guy for many years. Well, his predecessor jump, all the 2nd was ailing as po. Okay, i stand corrected on benedicts 16. I didnt go that far back in history and a very long history of the Catholic Church has. Um, ill put an asterisk on benedict as the 1st to do so in modern times. So what do you think the impact of this pope francis has been among the church and, and with catholics all around the world . Whats going to be his legacy . Thats a difficult question and the response is strongly bifurcated. Among catholics in the tenure of frances, he has sort of galvanized opposition among conservatives who in, in theological circles like cultural and political circles, can be languid, they, they suffer from tor 4. And conservatives are generally happy people who are trying to live their lives, the best life family lives more often than not. And so theyre not ready, you know, at the sticks to make changes or to, to, to wage counter revolution against the revolutionaries. And it doesnt really work the same way in the church when you have someone like francis, who was essentially a revolutionary attempting to wage revolution on, on changing doctrine in the church for 2000 years. So his legacy will be that he galvanized on a riam, bracing of tradition. If you have someone like me im, im a latin mass catholic. My home parish is in new orleans, almost 2 hours away where i can go to the tra denting lot nice. And this got changed around that a can to when our parents were young and there are some remnant class of catholics that went to the latin us the entire time. But it was really under frances that young people returned to the latin mass because things got sufficiently bad. The attack on tradition writ large, got sufficiently aggressive to drive a bunch of 20 year olds to the latin mass, which if you go to any t o m parish like mass around the country, youre going to see mostly young people. Now that is the opposite narrative to the one that the liberals, the theological liberals of the 60 string vatican to were telling all young people want hippie crap and guitars and come by are not so, but we didnt know it as i mean now i was kind of i have had some part in helping to popularize the t o m a among other catholics who i, i attended the team and before francis came into this see if peter, but most young catholics and kind of only come in as a sort of kind of response to francis and in some sense thats a good thing. There are, there are those like liberal catholics who are essentially circular square. You cant be a liberal and a catholic who of course loved francis. But there are circular squares. Theyre very, very confused. Dogs chasing their own tails. And i would just say that phrase is in many ways is flushed out the mold because the church has had this. Are our enemies wanna believe its a death spiral happening since before about a can to since essentially the po, 2, called vatike into in 1958. Where, you know, its an embarrassed kind of self loathing when the church, confronts herself on the stage in front of the world. Instead of proudly proclaiming what the Catholic Church always had for 1950 years. Now all of a sudden, a sort of shame faced about the announcement for truth since around that time 9. So whats called this, the onset of vatican to 1962. The church has been in the spiral of came an embarrassment for bringing the truth. And this became, like i said, about frances, notable enough over the last 11 years, that i think a lot of people are realizing there will need to be a vatican 3. Partly as a clarifying response to the pontificate of number 266 francis and partly is a clarifying response to some of the ambiguities of vatican to i think thats going to be his legacy. All right, coming up next. The Catholic Church is the single biggest land owner all around the world outside of government entities. Why does the church own so much land . Well discuss it when we return with timothy j. Gordon and sit tight. The m o will be right back. The. The russian states never as one of the most sense key and the best english ill send send up the send. The 65. 00 must be the one else calls. Question about this, even though we will bend in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on the rush of funding and supports the ortiz full neck team and our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services. For what question did you say even closer to the adults way to let you know with a little special less is the ability to set the idea of the stuff for the problem for liam will cover with form or should i give them a quote at each to sort of like look at each to what item the committee a piece of the prostate and you can just delete the set up. Oh my god. See im the only to base your its up in this kind of a slow ok. The kind of this so at least what his last window is kind of that your opinion might be the dakota or someone eliminated where they have some feel wish that its 24 much lower than the light. Its thoughts, maybe i dont know whether she has a swimming list cuz i need for michelle. Thank you. The welcome back to the m o i manila chance Timothy J Gordon is back base for sticking with us. Tim. All right, lets talk about the role of church in our society as a whole. The Catholic Church and more broadly, perhaps christianity, according to a 2019 q research pole. And over whelming, majority of americans, 2 thirds of them believe in the principle of separation of church and state. Does that separation truly exist . And how would you compare or perhaps contrast that with how other countries dont separate . The 2, i mean take for example, b is lama republic of iran, regardless of what anyone thinks of that country as a matter of governance. Religion in this case is long is part of the state. Thats a very, very fascinating question. And its got a couple of parts, and im an honor to be able to respond to it. First off what a lot of america. Im also a constitutional scholar. I went to law School Pretty much only to study the constitution and what most americans dont know or have been brainwashed or lied to about. Is this idea of the separation of church and state. This country was founded that space in 1788 is when the, the 9th state ratified the constitution under the promise that took 3 years to make good on by the federalists. Those who wanted it ratified to the anti federalists. Those who did not want the constitution ratified until the summer of 1791, a bill of rights. Right . Really the 1st 8 amendments to that constitution which stood as guarantors. A specific rights which warranted dressed in the 1st 2nd or 3rd articles with the constitution and amendment one, the only amendment in the entire bill of rights. To mention specifically the congress stipulate something that most americans just dont know and it, it applies particularly about separation of church and state 1st amendment and it, it, it applies to all the other bill of rights amendments as well. The bill of rights was only meant to constrain the National Government, the congress, and thats why congress has mentioned in the 1st amendment. So its Congress Shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. The state governments which remember back then when america was truly america, before we really lost our country, the state legislatures made all of the sexy, important, moralistic legislation. And they all were assumed 13 out of 13 by even jefferson, who had a funny relationship with christianity. He didnt love it, but he helped madison to frame amendment one, and they assume that 13 out of 13 states would have an official sect of christianity. The most them would be protestant. They figured because most americans were protestant. But they felt 13 out of 13 would and in only 8 of 13 state legislatures adopted in official sacked under the 1st amendment of christianity. What this means is the 1st amendment in until this, this year. 1947, the case called everson versus board of ed, which reversed the meaning of the 1st amendment. They all had the 8 of 13. It couldve been the other 5, they just opted against it to have an official establishment of some protestant fact is mostly congregationalist puritan sex of christianity in the north and church of england in the south that official state religions. And as a matter of fact, the 1st amendment meant Congress Shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. What it really meant is that congress will not this establish official state establishment of christianity that was literally from 1791. Until 1947, a solid 150 years of what i call true america federalism. It just meant that the National Government couldnt commandeer the sexier law making powers of the states. Its called the police power of the states comes from the 10th amendment. The conservative law and what it really means is, yeah, we can of moral legislation. The libertarians dont love that, but the more legislation should all come from state legislatures for the several states. If you dont like your states moralizing legislation or im not a baptist, but i live in mississippi, im a Roman Catholic. I could move if it bothered me enough, i could transfer state lines. I could go to louisiana where there are a lot more catholics. If it really bothers me, you can vote with your feet. Thats until the National Government started swallowing the whole. And thats when in that case i mentioned earlier, everson versus board of education. It was 7 of 9 scoutis juris 7 of 9 who were freemasons. They reverse the meaning of the 1st amendment. They use something called incorporation doctor and they said now all of a sudden the bill of rights applies to the state legislatures as well as the fed. And now it means the opposite of what it had meant for a 150 years that the congress, really the court could this establish state religions even though that was the whole purpose of the 1st amendment. So, because you know the masons on the court in the law fair, in the culture of such power, theyve convinced everyone over the last 60 years that essentially the opposite purpose of the 1st amendment was the case. It wasnt a separation of church and state is not a good thing. It does, it, does it look like some healthy corrective of islamic theocracy, Christian Christian theocracy works differently, especially under the auspices of federalism. Now i would say this western civilization has an intellectual figure head that figure head is, is aristotle and aristotle is a greek philosopher who, when iced the west. And there was a really deliberate effort around americas birthday to de how nice the west, and that was a really, really, really bad thing. And then not just intellectually, but morally and spiritually. The west was all built by the christie entity, that was aristotelian, aristotelian christianity, you know, and its got the autism indented the idea of hospitals, medicine, hard science, matrimony, patriarchy, charities, libraries, universities, grade school, high school, orphanages, and the idea of christendom. Which means the right kind of integral mixture of, of church and state, not not the creepy islamic theocratic kind, but specifically to christine kind. So its, its a good thing, a lots of lots of false indoctrination at the hands of the Public Schools on this particular matter. So once upon a time, the church was the most powerful institution all over the globe, right . I mean, it influenced kings and queens, whole governments and so forth. So i might argue its still plays a fairly large role in american politics. I mean, take, for example, would be overturning of ro is the church still a key player in Global Governance . This is a tricky question. Roe vs wade. And the return to the states rights represented by dobbs versus bolton is largely a legacy win for the american Catholic Church. And the american catholics were like a 3. 00 bill because our ideas have always disproportionately informed the good a leads in america like justice, thomas, or justice scalia, particularly on the high court. But we, you know, were demographically, weve never been represented at the same ratio. So i would say dobbs versus bolden is the, the one bright spot, the, the small white pill. And its not that small over the last decades. On the whole, i would say that american catholics who have always been this 3. 00 bill, this side of the pond. I have suffered from 8 something, some of the stuff ive already mentioned, a church which is embarrassed of its own truth over the last 60 or 70 years. And thats the case. Even in the, in europe, look at, look at ireland and i, i studied in, in rome, i was beginning a doctorate in rome at a pontifical school. And the italians in rome. Beautiful old city. They dont know what the treasure of patrimony theyre sitting on their in row, so the europeans arent much better. I would say that theres, theres a confusing mishmash whereby the church does this, this most unfortunate pontificate. Number 266. 00 is running around with folks that play geo politics from the wrong angle going the wrong direction. Like bunky moon of the un or Jeffrey Sachs or emma button, you know, w e f. The churches under frances, as even had meetings with the World Economic forum, is truly unfortunate. So to whatever extent the churches influencing World Politics under pope francis its, its been negative and its been more catholics taking the lead of the the people you would never want leading the world like the w e. F. Under his prey. The assessor benedict 16 things were a lot more traditional and the church did still lead the world in some, some positive directions. Benedicts 16 was known as a conservative in american protestants. Loved the benedict, the 16th as, as the us faithful catholics. I. I dont know why he laughed when he is so healthy. Hes healthy for 10 years after if i have to. And its really one of the great james and mysteries of the modern era. But i would just say a historical note have been a, as well that the, the chair, a country to what youre going to be told in American Public school. It was, it was great wounds in christendom. When in Martin Martin luther waged a revolution and this really splintered europe in a way where europe had had a university, political and Cultural University that enabled europe to really stand for something, it stood, stood for the cross, even with its foibles is exaggerated foibles in the history books after the wound of the protestant revolt, this, this change the situation and europe became frat tile in a way it never had been before. And it hadnt been even after 1054. When church, Eastern Church west split the latin and greek church, which became, you know, orthodox versus catholic, that didnt to do as much damage as 1517. 00 to christendom. In the, of the unity of christians. That in many ways was pollinating the foundation of america. Even though the foundation of america was largely good. And weve wound up in this situation where christians feel scattered, divided in liter list here on the 21st century. Its really sad. Timothy j. Gordon. Philosopher, author of the case for patriarchy and host of rules for retro grades. Thank. Ringback you so much for that deep insight today. I really appreciate you have any thanks for the time and ive really enjoyed it. All right, and that is going to do it for todays episode and modus operandi the show that takes deep into Foreign Policy and current affairs. Im your host manila chan. Thank you so much for tuning and well see you again next time and figure out the m o. The now, can you use visa deployed here . See it to me. I think, you know, dont click jims in the book. The mattress just needs a the the only showcase is used nathaniel. So whos going to the boys at the boys . The probably the most name thatll be for them. Imagery at this uh, florida doesnt want that as much. To text them to the, in the year of 1954, the United States of america engaged in warfare against the people of vietnam. The white house supported the corrupt but governments of southern vietnam. In 1965 americans began their invasion following the aim to defeat the forces of vietnamese patriots. The pentagon was confident that the victory would be on the american side, due to its military superiority. However, the vietnamese, during this war into total health for the occupants. Unable to cope with a guerrillas, the American Army started blanket bombing alongside using chemical weapons and naples, which burnt all alive. The village of my lay, where he 1969 american soldiers killed 504 civilians, including 210 children, became a tragic symbol of this war. All and all. During the whole period of this conflict, the usa dropped on vietnam more than 6000000. 00 tons of bonds, which is 2 and a half times as much as on germany during the 2nd world war. In 1973, the American Army under the pressure of the rebels, withdrew from vietnam, and only 2 years later did the puppet regime inside on file. However, the vietnamese paid a high price for their freedom. More than 1000000 vietnamese people became the victims of america in aggressors. The, the headlines thrown off the International Ukrainian troops control comp last is on the front because the Russian Army Advances across the dont actually have public. It comes as washington ships, even more military 8 on cash, the key of the landscape, pleasures bottles, big old game as Israel Military intelligence chief called at quit. So the idea of his failure to protect the nation on october, the 7th. And then in yall was cabinet itself is under pressure to take full responsibility and even step down while were here outside of Columbia University. And this is the center of the boiling controversy in new york city right now and such as bobbing right there in the big apple. Were reporting from Columbia University students, a staging demonstrate