Having to discuss that, im now joined by around call. As soon as alice, deputy minister of Foreign Affairs for north america, its a call us. Its great to meet you in. Great to talk to thank you very much for your time. Thank you much for the invitation. Now we are talking here on the sidelines of the, of all day for him, which this here a care is the title fair multiple larry, see how to ensure security and development for all. And i want to start by asking whether you believe its even possible to ensure security and development for all and do it in a fair manner. Well, i think its something that we have to strive for, for sure. In venezuelas own history. Uh, you know, we are a revolution that uh, inspired by c mobile dealer or liberator, who spoke about the librium of the universe as a concept back in the 1800s. And he saw the, the tensions between the different poles that were rising. And thats how we have to establish some sort of equity in room balance, so that we can assure that everyones interest was consider. And i think this is the point were reaching now. And in this one history where we can no longer just came a world view where only the interest of one country is accepted. But we have to make sure that we cater to to the interest of, of different peoples. Because that model of the single country is not enough to guarantee for the rest of humanity. Safe planet, safe safety from health or risk of the seas. So. So the, theres a need for us to build something different. I think it is achievable, and i think its something that we have to promote. But even if i put that one country um beyond the breakfast for a for a moment, well start from different bases and doubts with different for source, assembled with different challenges. How would you even assess the fairness of the framework if we are all moving in different faces and sometimes in Different Directions . Well, i think thats where the art of diplomacy comes in and the importance of dialogue and, and how we have to build relations with countries among countries are relations field precisely on dialogue. We have to try to understand each others. Theres different cultures of diversity, presley, or will travis spoke of 2 or 4 look priority, meaning that uh, not only do we have to have different poles, but the lease that we have to accept the diversity in each full so they can co exist. So i think its important that we, we do that effort of, of dialoguing and trying to understand each other, see where our interest can meet. Because everybodys obviously has different interests. Everybody has different needs. Well, theres gotta be a point where we can make them meet and, and Work Together for the best of all. He meant speaking about dialog last here and develop the plan, the recession. You asked the president of this country, of like them and put in the whether anything should be done to support this process of shaping multiple. Our chances out sir was essentially no, you know, its a, its a natural development. And besides, the west is already doing everything necessary to bring multiple arity about its, do you agree with him that no specific measures i need to to uh, protect or support this process . Well, i think its important to like, he mentioned that this is something that is taking place now, and perhaps we will find out that along the way, for example, with the emergence of, of bricks. Now as a such a strong platform that we may have to do some things to help it along the way and contribute to the, to the building. I think its important that we, we strengthen those processes because thats where we can really see a new type of arrangement where people can participate in different countries. Have different types of participation. And we can overcome a stomach problems that weve had, for example, that in, in countries in, in, in the south and the global south or Even Development seem another way of, of corporation for development that doesnt in both of you of one country of another. But it actually is a, some of necessities and an opportunity well, getting into an argument for his bladder and put a nice thing. Sometimes its very difficult to allow of these lab be approach. Not only because your opponents are piling economic sanctions on to you, but also because i think theyre now overstepping their own values and their own laws to punish countries like ours. For example, i dont know if youve heard that, but the e u has recently introduced the master that would allow its officials, customs officials, to stream russian nationals of their personal belongings like phones like even toiletries. And that is coming from countries that i still believe to be the champions of personal freedoms and privacy. I wonder if we have come to a point when we have to be concerned about the unraveling of the west because of the western sanctions. Well, i think thats something that were seeing a part of the result of these sanctions. And these policies is that its a promotion of fate in a way o all or is it. And then only happens to russians with a, in this case, uh that you mentioned. But you seem to happen. For example, in, in, in, with lives american migrants in, in, in United States for, uh, you know, the, the, every time you have the place uh, migration on the other is that only the, the law is not only the section itself, but its also accompanied by a message of distancing themselves from the other and generating fee or hate. We have to distance ourselves from the, from this policy we have to stop these processes throughout the world. Weve seen this re emergence in both in, in europe or, and also that america, of the fastest tendencies that are use they use hate in order to promote their policy. So it is part of this process they use hate of to promote their policies, but theyre also sort of very successful in projecting it out to other countries. They do not see that as hate. In fact they, they seem to be very self righteous. What could possibly uh, bring it to their attention that theyre doing the exact same things that they are accusing that adam is off. The problem is that i think it will get to a point that these measures that they take and that they promote, heard them as well, and theyre going to realize that their actions also have consequences. And they are already those in and academic terms. So were seeing, for example, the gas prices being probably the highest that theyve been in the last few months in the United States and hardly is due because the, the way the essential to impact uh, oil markets throughout the world. If of countries like venezuela, we run for exec, well they didnt have the sanctions place on them. There could be different. Oh, rush, order us efforts for that fact. Yes, they can be a very different consequences or the very different im Energy Supply and, and the effects on the us people will be quite different, but also is in the, in other issues like even uh, with migration itself. And in part of countries that are under economic distress because of, of sanctions. Well, one of the results sometimes seems to be migration and, and, and this, the United States was also feeling a said there is a feeding loop whether they like it or not. But for the time being, they still prefer not to notice it. Yes. And in a way is it is part of the, you know, the, theyre part of the problem the, the, they believe that their actions dont have consequences by the new now, uh, the west is using not only direct sanctions against the countries like russia, when, as well but also secondary sanctions to penalize those who are willing to do business with the quote unquote the renegades. And that could be seen as a direct uh tool against uh multiple r a t. Uh, you know, if we understand multiple our to is a space when nations can relate to each other on their own terms, do things sooner or later. Multiple letters who really require some sort of um, formal arrangement or protection against western pressure. Well, what we really need already exists, which is the principles in, in, in trying and then you and charter, the end of practice. Oh, but, but, but theyre there and, and you know, at one point in time, countries to, to become members of the u. N. They, they signed the, the charter, they agreed to be part of it. And what we need to do is to rescue those, those ideals, and those principles and, and stress the necessity of, of respecting them the, the, the idea, the us, for example, coming both these unilateral mattress is completely a violation of, of International Law. So what we have to do is we dont have to do the same, we have to defend and show that we respect International Law that then we want a system where multiple are to comply with. But you know, countries can thrive because theres a re, um, a minimum of respect for each others interest and well, me, i dont know if you would agree with that. But what i find very interesting about our times is that, you know, theres principles that have been and try and in the year and charter for the state is it now makes sort of sense to uphold them because its in your own benefit. And we see some of the us nominal allies like saudi arabia, like united arab emirates, becoming members of briggs because they, they find it not only will the moral terms, its in that practical developmental interest. So do you think theres something new about the way countries relate to those values and try and in the youre in charge of what were definitely, uh a moment where we realize that release just have to be different. Because again, the, the system though that was the remaining of that was trying to, we impose on the rest of us doesnt have the solutions to our problems. I think what countries are doing or realizing that they have to abide or follow those, those principles that well share and, and doesnt necessarily mean that were going to subject ourselves to a country. It means that we have to build spaces where we can dialogue and contribute and cooperate, which is very important. So we have to engage in el center relationship rather than incursion. Now speaking about venezuela, your country has been under western sanctions for, for, for very long time. As has iran, cuba, some other nations, but it has an approval with this kind of rapid changes within the International Economic and political system that we have observed that recently. And i wonder if you see western sanctions against russia as a standout case, or whether its simply the cumulative effect of all those years of sanctions against various countries. That is influencing this for bringing about this rapid change within the international system. Well, it also has to do also with the size of, of countries on economies, obviously, garages of much larger country and, and the impact that these measures may have on, on, on the world because of how they affect russia is different from holly may impact smaller countries but the truth is that about 30 percent of the world is right now, and theres some sort of unilateral course of measure from the United States. And pressing glass motor has been very open and in denouncing this, these actions and how we have to find new uh, new solutions to and the dependency that we have, for example, on the dollar or that we have on, on, on this capability that the United States as time American Financial institutions, all american lab, financial institutions, we have reset the to be international. Thats why thats why i presume a little said in, in, in the recent his message to the recent bricks meeting and south africa of the, the importance that it was to, to find new alternatives to find an architecture for new Financial Model to think about the below orientation and see how we can have another organization of the world where were not. So depending on the United States as a well mr. Carlos, we have to take a very short break ref, still dependent on the, on our schedule, but we will get back in just a few moments state you in the, the, the, [000 00 00;00] the welcome veterans, a part of the carlos event as well as deputy minister for, for the terrace for north america, but to call us before the break, we mention sanctions that the United States maintain against your country for many years. And i know for a fact that the new sal and then a rainy and experience has been studied in russia extensively to understand what to do and what perhaps not to do when dealing with these draconian measures against my country. I wonder if a venezuela has learned anything new or got any new ideas from the russian experience . Well, i think its funny because when we uh, i remember one time speaking uh uh, when the sanction started under the trump immunization, i spoke to a Russian Diplomats and who i encounter with in, in, in washington and, and the 1st thing he told me was, well, you have to learn to live with sanctions and, and then the ways to, you know, part of what we have seen from the experiences of russia. But also if we run a cube for many years, is that you know, the point of, of was, of the section policy from the United States is to reduce regina change and produce all these alterations of our reality, which are not in tune with the needs and the wants of the, of our peoples. So we have to learn to, to, even though we have these aggressions how to make our, our own solutions and how to move forward the experience from russia. Now of course its also interesting for us as all the other ones. And i think what, what we have learned is that nobodys going to give us anything for free. We have to, well, whatever were gonna do for our future and well have, are we gonna develop our country . We have to do it by defending it ourselves by organizing our peoples. And so i think that that, that is the best lesson that we can learn overall. Its interesting you say that because the, you know, a substantial part of those sanctions were brought about after the elections of 2018. And next year youre facing another president ial vote. Do you expect any american interference or do you think the americans wouldnt be too preoccupied with that on domestic political strife . Well, i think the, if we look at history, you know, this year will be thats a 100 and the grocery of the monroe doctrine, which is, uh, do you think that going to celebrate . Well heres, heres, heres the thing is i, what we seen is a constant intervention in the continent. Uh, you know, in different, different types of forms from cause to sanctions, to a invasion is everything. But so, so the tendency is that they will always try to find a way to, um, you know, see in gauging in, in our processes in the, an alternate and in their favor. We uh, i think we would diminish on people uh know what the reality are. You know, i, i think we have face all these addresses. So these are problems. And we have had a leadership study leadership on their pressing model that has led the country out of that. Uh, you know, that aggression, we have been able to grow and the last year that and you know, which is something that nobody would bring, will was able to predict. Uh, you know, and just a couple years earlier because they thought that everything would collapse. And we have shown that, you know, were capable of, of achieving a different, uh, different outcome. So i think the, minnesota people know that, you know, they, they have to keep advancing in their democratic process in the deepening a revolutionary process. And i think those the, the outcome regardless of whatever intervention it takes place, the venezuela is, is an emergency. And you know, we will have elections and different forces would measure themselves. But i think the sort of people know where the horizon is thinking about different forces, one voice mail from the west at that time, the recognized as the interim presence of from the cell that is barely seen or mentioned anymore. How do you use this . How do you assess his political fortunes . Well, i think it was, uh well she, she left the countryside even a political figure of any importance right now in venezuela. And i think many countries now realize that it was, you know, ridiculous to have supported the adventure of trying to recognize the government, the, the didnt exist. So you dont have, not only didnt have a legal basis, but also it didnt have any popular support. I mean, nobody though that was for trade us and either could simply leave the country and there will be no effects whatsoever. And no, you can, you can, you can see how it is when its almost overcome that, that chapter i think, you know, when were looking forward, were looking ahead again for some of the has shown us a way of thoughts gross towards the improvement of services for the people i think thats the password on and thats important. As i said, youre looking forward to that. I also want to ask you to look sideways a little bit because im interested in your opinion about the american election. So which are also coming up next year and i think whats different then weve talked about that a little bit already. Is that the station for the americans themselves is different there. They have never been so polarized as they are right now. And i wonder if, if you think that the outcome of the next year bullets well have any bearing on how the multiple r a t shaping or how the valves on the a continental shaping out. Well, i think 1st of all, i want to say, you know, we are respectful of the sovereignty of the peoples United States. So whatever the session they make, of course it, we respect them and, and thats what we want them to do in art. But lets, as me, the choice is quite unprecedented, then its very, i mean, the, perhaps not very inspiring, even for the americans themselves. And judging from the polls what, well theres, theres many problems in u. S. Society. Now the theyre facing because of the, their model is again, its not able to fulfill the expectations of people using growth in, in, in, in homeless mass us and growth in poverty. So theres a lot of traffic patience on the people who say so then they need to find a way to, to vote for, you know, solving their own problems and not trying to police the world are trying to engage in our elections. I think i hope the whatever comes as a result is another i renewed opportunity to engage with United States, the problematic, the and on equal terms. I mean, you know, maybe maybe a high bar to said, but i think it is important that we remember weve always been willing to engage with United States diplomatically. As long as theres a relationship with mutual respect, when you dont have them with the respect and then all these other informations comes about. So my hopes that lease or that whatever outcome it is, is something that can lead to a respectful relationship. Now one of those issues polarizing, heres domestic politics is immigration and its no secret that been his element migration to the United States is linked perhaps directly to the sanctions policy. And i think this is one of the very, very few ways that the americans can directly experience the consequences of the actions. But i wonder if migration is to are big enough of a challenge to influence the american approach, either to sanctions or to your own country. For their own sake. Well, the problem is, what we seeing in grow history in, in us politics is that sometimes, whenever these election moments come and theres always a for in a adversary of some sort. And you know, either is it could be one day time when the russell or any other country, or it could be in the shape of migrants from anywhere in line america. This in this case, because of the narrative, they have a negative narrative against when a sweller, you know, theyre focusing on minnesota migrants. But, you know, been sort of not even the, the main source of migrants in the United States right now. In any case, a lot of that migration historically, in our region has that to do with the intervention of the United States. Now its sanctions, but before you know, the, the, the cools, the, the sabotage to democratic government. So the just sitting aligned to their purposes that lets for people to seek uh, solutions and to seek them a north because at the end of the day you effect the economies in a way that people, you know, they, they want to look fuller, other economic possibilities so its is, is a moment where theres that there must be a lot of reflection on the side of the you the be both of us to see where the real problems are, where the real, where they should focus their energies as not necessarily foreign threats. Its, its the way its functioning inside that they need to deal with. I dont know, she would agree with that, but i think it is this perception of invincibility and that for daycare to allow the american Political Class to root with impunity. And to sort of believe that that consequence that actions dont have consequences. And if you look close, the whole concept of american exceptionalism is ultimately rooted in this idea that they are somehow above and beyond retribution. Uh my question to you is what youre seeing me persuading the American People about the american, the leads that theyre humans like anyone else. And therefore they shouldnt be constrain south, constrained by some notion of common responsibility or at least responsibility before that own people. I think their model, the current model has shown is not sustainable. I think the comic is not going to be sustainable in the long run. The again, the, the challenges are facing within the country. The goals of poverty, the now the new, the growth of drug use. So which has now become one of the main or the primary costs of, of the thing you use. And then i say, show that theres something essentially wrong with the system that there and, and that exceptionalism is not going to be the answer. I think. And also, you know, i, you mentioned the leads were the, the fact that the people are realizing this, i think its important because, you know, there is the giving, say, this even a, a massive and imperialist movement. The we dont see in the media but, but the, that it does live in the United States and doesnt ones country to and its government to abilities, actions. And i think thats growing every day. And, you know, sometime is going to reach those decision makers. Uh, theres gotta be new generations of, of lawmakers and to coming to us politics that, that focus on real peoples problems that has to happen. You come from a country with the stronger revolutionary tradition, but i think there comes a point for any country when a revolution has to give way to do engine for, i mean revolutionary slogans. I know its enough. You actually need to provide for your people and its very hard and often times on and just on under appreciated work of governance. I sometimes wonder if the americans of stock and this revolutionary phase of thinking of themselves as of the day. So the shining, said york on the hill without even caring off, but you know, working the fields or, you know, the roads inside that the inside that you well i think there has to be a change of that exception of this mentality. But, but i think again the, the problems are they, theyre going to and can learn counseling right now in the streets or as well as going on. Anything that change will come because the, the american system as it exists today does not allow for that. In my view, its nice for a free and comprehensive expression of political will because a choice between the buyers and then trump is with all due respect to the americans as a very poor and limited choice. Well, theres other movements that i think are important within uh, you know, local uh, theres gotta be a gradual empowerment of people. And the start is going to start is already started and, and, and, you know, local that was received different a different class. So of politicians and in City Councils and other places that are contesting some of these visual policies that come from exceptionalism. Its a process and maybe maybe were not going to see it next year or, or, you know, maybe in 1020 years since, you know, sometimes these changes take a long time. But you can see that theres something rolling and, and that is that it has to come out because its less of statement the way theyre doing it is not sustainable. Well, uh, on this note mr. Call us, we have to leave it there. But thank you very much for being with us. My pleasure. Thank you very much. And thank you for watching hope to hear again and was a part of the of the theres no end in sight over how youre going to continue to destroy the earth. Is the case for the med, most of the people. I tried to go to the gym, but im certainly not ready to fight russia. This is also a pursuit. This is 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals. What are some of the living will not have very close propaganda. You know, price here in new york. I think we dont know the aftermath any time that youre not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. Some more questions, ask a better. The answer is will be the the e, the so that they go to and so i dont remember the bundle episode in google. 40 the room was a,