Since the fall of gadhafi in 2011. Following the us led nato Bombing Campaigns in libya, the country is anything but a country, only a name. Remember when then secretary of state, Hillary Clinton said this, we came, we saw died. Civilian life has been decimated, taking hard fall gains of development back 60 years. The land has been vulcanized by warring factions all buying for control after the death of gadhafi left, a power vacuum across this oil rich state. Many way this, the stabilization at the feet of clinton, whos state departments failed to map out what would happen in libya after gadhafi died. So to discuss more about this grim anniversary and look at the african continent as a whole. Well talk to elijah maggie a. He is a veteran war correspondent who is been embedded in hotspots all over the world, including on the ground in libya, when it all began to unravel. You can subscribe to his work at e. J. Maggo dot com 1st, elijah october 20, 2023 at marks. 12 years of the anniversary of good off his death. Youre a veteran war correspondent, youve been through libya and much of the air of speaking world. From what youve seen is libby a better off since he died. Did the, the, us and nato, better libya by its Bombing Campaign in 2011 . I was actually, yes, i was in libya before the war during the war. And when trinity fan and i think i can save the situation and itd be further than that. So well im going to get duffy is was, and the country is far from better off without get duffy. Because funding whos that experienced significant political stability, the country 1st was guided by ices and then spread between all the bias militia and factions leading to a very wide civil war and tried fighting against each other with the weapons in the hands of all the tribes and now we have 2 central government, one in the west, and tripoli, another one in the east into brook to unite the country. It has not been possible, and this is not going to be achieved any soon. So we know, looking at any soon or stability and libya economically, via or dependent economy has suffered tremendously as a result of the, for those get that fee from a being annoyed at expos, country and producer. And that is, that was the main offices. Itd be in the economy now. The or production has been disrupted so many times the fractions, all seating it and they smuggling it and the, the economy in the country is really on the floor. From the Security Point of view. In the vacuum list, i get that fees that lead to the rise of different dish up off from the to government and the, the, some of the show control different both the country, the all vitamins and the know, finance and the solve, the grady we speak about the voters with egypt and wish chad our wide open photo is denisia also. And also from the human right. We cannot talk about an improvement because the presence of these mediation isis will get many. And it may be an ad for in a particularly distribution who are working in the country. Weve seen a kind of, uh, unusual situation or a 100 offered getting told to a cetera. And the last a, the migration that we see crossing from libya or libya, knowing the people coming from i forgot to cross to main name it any. And all that pays the less under control today. So the main to really intervention in 2011, played across a raleigh in the 7 lising. Yeah. And there without saying that the integration was really good, because the United Nations allowed only the protection of civilians, but not to destroy the country, to destroy get duffys army and hes rules and to allow people to getting. So we can say that nato is in differential and any deal was any better than enough kind of steinway. To now many, many people have described libya now as a failed state. That the rule of law no longer exist. Youve got, you know, Major Military factions, practically, and in a fat balkanized thing. The country who are those military leaders, especially general, half star with his ties to washington. Indeed the lip, yesterday is a freight state or a state with limits or center authority. And we have to offer a d and an old and it is in the central and in the yeah, sorry in the east and we are in the tripoli. And the 2011 intervention at the desk of kentucky at the time of booking is ation is often use to describe the fragmentation of frame. Yeah. So it is no longer one state because its not united. And because its ravished by militia and by different fashions, and because the divisions among the 2 parliament 2 countries to send for government is wearing heavy on. Yeah. And there. So we can say that the, the, the, the presence of the nato forces and the interventions need to was devastating through the now. Yes, good that fee when he was can. And then we have different if it goes back to matters particularly to generate cause he for hester was in the boss an officer in get diabetes army. And a also was one of the other players. And then 1969. Could you taught that broad duffy to file however, when a good that fee it keeps them out for the wing, the war dried in 19. 00 eighties. He went through the United States and this is where it is been very well known. And thats yeah. Does it start be strong guys with the c i a and you returned to libya in 2011 as a c i a general. I just see i a man and the libby in general. So in 2014, we have seen the pastor played a significant role in military road. So he, he was responsible for an operation administratively ocean in big guys the at that time 2014 for the operation dignity. And that was the beginning of a significant minutes for campaign and his influence in that part of libya and became the leader of the Libya National army. So the n n a n a and b is based in to brook. Hes one of the most Popular Military groups in the country, and he is receiving support from various countries including the United States. So, he is not on his own, on the military fit in libya, but to use one of the most popular and clear military plans. So as we look at the reset, the stabilization in new share and more broadly across the so how could we say this is a knock on effect after the fall of libya and after the death of gadhafi . When we understand whats happening today in africa is indeed related to whats happening and what happened in libya and therefore to conduct the so good tasks understood that the unity among the outcome entries is impossible. Because many countries, particularly the goods for all the rich countries, wherever they tied to the us and uh, where hosting us spaces, military bases, and with complete, to deliver it to the guys to return to that we got no, by turning towards africa. He wanted to do and he started exactly what the bricks is doing today. And what did you, what order is trying to impose . It says to kick out to the us, to germany and to give back to the african, the dignity and stop the west in their resources. Thats so good that we had the vague grand vision for africa. Truly his rules. He a position slip. Yeah. As a center there in african in fact, he was an dishes, it was driven by a mix of a is not ideal to g economy and political motivation, although he embraced the non most in african countries as well. And he had many initiatives you started with the kind of African Union and the transforming the organization for the optic and unity into optic and unit. And then he did that in 2011. Before he was good. He saw what the union as a step full would of elizabeth away from the control of the United States and from the european colonialism control. If it. Ringback his vision was not fully embraced by the african leaders, because of the, the powerful presence of france and germany in the United States in africa. Who did not want our project to stand so soon. And he also wanted to the present the african investment, investing billions of dollars in africa, and that he invested in the different sector, including agriculture, Small Businesses than the telecommunication reinstates hotel is and much more. So he has invested in the, in the, in bank. You want to degrade the african bank . He wanted to create the go do you know . And i think that was one of the reasons why you was made the kid. And that was in vicious brand. So today off the guys waking up on all that. And they see how the, the african whens, is over when me, but it is misuse is stolen by the west and that. So this is why weve seen in mining work and the fossil and the jazz. They kicking out the french and getting rid of the french colonialism and i think other african countries would follow, but that would be much slower and more gradual. All right, coming up next france, a former colonial power across much of africa. Did they try to assassinate gadhafi in the eightys . Well discuss it when we return with elijah and maggie a so tight the m. O will be right back. The the problem was that the name was what i mean. Got it. In order for the lower ability, when, when is the check id be out when i go to want to set up the temporary do me like what the issue is utah . Those are, you know, single heading phone bills. Let me double check here. What is the idea in the policy, you know, in syria, in the most, in what do you see by easy its just what is it going to get . No, no, and im of course everyone you know, when was he got a gun that would allow us to send anyone at all . No, thats fine. The the the welcome back to the m. O. I am manila chant, recently a to time former Prime Minister of italy, juliano amato, now 85 years old, told the media that a French Air Force missile accidentally down and a tale and passenger jet in the Mediterranean Sea back in 1980 that missile intended for duffys military jet, which he did not bored after being tipped off by the italians, gadhafi dodged that attempted assassination and many others in his time to go on ruling libya for another 31 years after that alleged incident as reported by mister amato, elijah maggie, a veteran war correspond, it is back with us to discuss this complicated history and relationship. So elijah, outside of his country. And as it pertains to the west, they had the sort of on, again, off, again relationship with gadhafi. They sometimes liked him, other times loved him. You know, they painted him as something of a lunatic or, or loose cannon, but they, for the most part, tolerated him. What was the final straw with him . What drove the us to leave this campaign to not only allister him, but kill him. I mean, was it the de dollarization talk . The Pan African Coalition ideas . The Gold Standard . Gold dinar. What was it that turned him into a pariah by the west . You would actually own what you have mentioned really you see good that for you. When he started, he bid a major infrastructure across topic that he bids road bridges mosque. And the, and one of the biggest projects that he did was name as the great man made river. And that was design of an adult with names of concrete pipeline of 4000 kilometers and also to meet this ranges. And that he, he started the project in 1983 and he finish it in 1996. But to his plan for, i forgot to introduce the african bank, like what the chinese did today as the asian, the bank, it to substitute you at the International Money through sound. And the was bank introducing this and injecting 100 a 100 billions of dollars that she had. And he wanted to put such a big capital and bring all the african means really cutting off the west and the United States for that controller factory guy. Also, because indeed not is not to be on the estimated because he believed he needed to free africa from the economic defenders on the west. And he charlies the dominance of the us doctor and the you. So this is what today the bricks hes doing in the last meeting they decided to deal with their local county. And this is why that is something that the americans can never allow. So that was one of the main reason why was skin. And he was giving aid that to be used for different vice preferences. It was building hospitals and schools and funding scholarship for african citizen. Not only libyan so his involvement in promoting all these revival of africa. Oh, was a really accepted by the west. I mean, look today, yeah, friends buys uranium from new jack at the 0. 8 dollars, you know, when in kind of that is sold for 200. 00 a kito. So what i have from c span 220000000. 00 a year to the j in exchange of the reserve of the uranium costs. In fact, 54000000000. 00 on the free market. All that with the arrival. Good, good that for you. And hes or grand i, yeah, with the have put and all that and to the us and the, you and the west and colonialism and was cut off the sheet or the steps of the african Natural Resources. And this is why they couldnt wow, that is quite a profit. So libya had deep ties to italy and france under gadhafi. Can you explain that for us as well . Yes. And if you have relations with it to be in friends during the doctor, you were on Different Levels say started, go to the nomic, go political and strategic dang mention. So libya in italy had, uh they are oh, and the colonial and history between 19111943. So the that play the foundation for the relationship that was the defender and later on into an improvement of the relationship, particularly doing good stuff. He took the power in the late sixtys and then he became one of leave us most important trading pop is that this is racial by see, eh, maybe i use the export or any and the any. The guy in the Energy Company was in a direct the heavily involved in the the been or didnt guys exploration and production. And the in 2008 in libya, song they started per tree that was known as a friendship tree. And then that the pop in corporations agreement and the way it did, he agreed to pay 5000000000. 00 in compensation for its going to ruin. Is this something that france is refusing to do with the julia and other african country . So as an exchange, libya promised to supply you with or, and to try and stop all the migration. Uh, that is crossing to the tiny show and them the front and said, are i like, is it any significant economic interest in libya . The French Company are involved in india and libya also in their own infrastructure and the in providing what is to libya, often the goodness of, cuz he presented himself as a president in 2007, a good, definitely financed is campaign. This is why the presidency was one that they need those in europe who even before the united nation, a resolution to defend the civilian. So yes, the relationship is old is sorted during good that fee. I remember the famous picture showed you various going here when there was a Prime Minister kissing the end of get dr. You when he land at the airport. If you reach, you know, so all this, its a history and its very grounded history. But unfortunately they or because 5 to put him looking into the future, what does the future of libya look like . Do the warring factions make peace and re unite the country . What about all the oil fields and should, should there be un interventions here, at least on humanitarian grounds . For this thing, the future in libya is trying to g a. This situation has been very fluid then since the assassination of get dr. The um, the or the moment of health such as assigning ceasefire and disagreement and for the 2 government to talk to each other and add the presence of bias fractions. Each with its own sect of interest in foreign backers makes the Peace Process very complicated in dpi. And the International Pressure is on and off and it depends on the interest. So you have the United States, then you have the immune rate, you have the de key and you have your euro. And because of the Large Oil Reserves in africa, that is the money addiction. It is not a blessing, it may have been a blessing for the i have for the libyan uh, the, when the doctor was wrong. But today is a cost because everybody wants the oil and everybody wants to control the or width of the glass eh, reducing the production. And so the european and the americans are going to dig and not the guy made the libya because libya and the rest of africa are very rich in oregon guys. So in the peaceful its in, are you in the reconstruction of the economy . The oil and gas will return under the control the libya. Is this what the americans and europeans, one in this crisis where they are fighting the russians they are not taking . Was they austin, taking the russian guys, annoyed that without denouncing it but not like before. And they off struggling because after the guy is cutting the road on an ex protein, the african continent, and they want to be treated on equal basis and send their Natural Resources on the fed locked in price. So the reason to belies in libya bring the piece to the yeah, i dont think today for it falls into the interest of the western community. The, the reconstruction of libya will bring that in lots of money because it, yeah, has, i see. But it just what the west one, i doubt that there is any need for a peace today in different countries. Im state, were countries because only with the, with the United States is surviving. And today, the new itd be Us Administration is freezing. All the other conflicts in the why, particularly in syria and iraq doesnt want to put out ok by north east area. Theres a want to put out from the right. Not withstanding the decision of the iraq upon them in, but they want to keep the, the stuff to cool as it is because theyve very busy in fighting russia and trying to upset the chinese at the same time. So this is why its difficult to say that there is a way to peace because we havent seen for the last 23 years. Anyway, mother, any european and American Mother or natal mother debris piece anywhere. But to bring on the wall, theres what they have done, and theyve got this done. Ive done the in the rock in libya, in syria and they know going to stop suddenly, but the piece had installed st. We one piece to re get it to be re gain, libya we want to re stablish piece because this is not their philosophy does not the doctrine that the thing is a set of weapons and now they have it. They cross their market, its sending webpage to or western and Eastern European because they are send these countries all sending all their weapons to fight frustrating ukraine. And the americans are supplying these countries new weapons, but not for free because they sending it to these countries. And the, the pre tax offs, demonizing the russia and afraid of russia as invasion if youre, which is completely ridiculous and nonsensical. So to return to your question, i think its very difficult to see any piece in the next 2 years. As long as mine is empower and we dont see what the next president is going to bring with him. Uh. Yeah. Sadly it sounds like peace and libya or reconstruction is many, many years away. Uh, elijah maga, thank you so much, elijah is a veteran war correspondent. Um make sure you check out elijahs work at e j. Maggie a dot com. Thank you for being with us. Great to be here and thank you for your time. All right, that is going to do it for this episode of modus operandi the show that dig deep into Foreign Policy and current affairs. Im your host window a chan. Thank you so much for 2. And again, well see you again next time to figure out the m o. The move when i would show seemed wrong. Just dont to shape house and engagement equals the trail. When so many find themselves will to part, we choose to look so Common Ground the the, the, the, whatever is the death sold in gaza as the buses 27. 00, hundreds to you and says, the region is on the verge of the best. Even those residents taking celts in a few decals to confiscate utah for please say kill innocent people. In 5 days we have witness farms on houses, roofs, and campuses in the streets. We do get those running out of water and electricity. In fact, the guys a decent being strong build on it seemed that the world right now as it lost its money to the u. N. Warrens about a deteriorating humanitarian crisis in gaza. The sources say egypt bought a