The, the welcome to the part of it, just reading and a hunger from knowledge from low been received as purchase and homeworks of the sages, paving the way to a higher consciousness. But what if i told you that one of historys most of the tory is dictators Joseph Stalin was both a developed worshipper of the highest priests of his own library. In fact, this is where he died surrounded by books and manuscripts, rather than his loved ones. How did saelens love of books informed his ruling style of to discuss it. Im now joined by Geoffrey Roberts emeritus professor of history at the University College cork, an author of Sellers Library a dictator and says books, professor roberts, its great to talk to you in person this time. Thank you very much for your time and thank you for the invitation. Now your book style is library ssl to explore the intellectual life biography. And i would say psychology of Joseph Stalin, whom you described as the 20th century, most self consciously intellectual dictator. And i think its a somewhat controversial undertaking in this day and age because in order to understand the evil one needs to engage with that rather than dismissed it and condemn it out of hand. Why did you decide to do it at this point of time . Well, what would you come on . The most important thing between this time about my book in the past on 1st that he wasnt intellectual. He was a man, man of ideas, as well as action he believed in the transformative power. While it is not just in terms of changing peoples consciousness, but in terms of tracking human nature, im as accomplished. Im off as the socialist. You know, he was committed not just to the transformation to see what the thought is, but the transformation of people including himself so, so easy. His engagement with books, with reading, move up with ideas, was a very, it was a very profound you guys were on the comp. Im sandstone as a person. Also because time it has a political act con, understand all the bad things that we associate with, with, with style is brutal dictatorship of the soviet union without understanding english and intellectual. And i wrote this book because this seemed to me that this, the source piece is library and the book see rather than how we read them, how we marked them. It is the most amazing source east, the most intimate source, the most from time useful source. The most revealing sol, so i feel like its an expiration of stones intellectual life is life as a reader. But its also an ex relation of installing as a political actor. He also describe this uh t shaped table in a, in the room where he died. As fact, with books manuscripts p o, because his personal library was very, very extensive. I wonder if looking at him through these lines has, has changed your own opinion of him as a personality or perhaps a may. Are you understanding your keys . It will make you a little bit more new ones. Yeah, absolutely. Wheres the wrote this book actually was okay. Ive written a number of books about style and not connected with story by want to write a wide ranging book about stormy. But i didnt really want to what, right i, i biography. So it does seem to be an opportunity to see other kind of intellectual pull tre, intellectual box using this particular. So what was the actual but also very, very personal in a, in a very strange way. Sure, yeah, but, but, but i went to when i went to i wrote wide ranging, but the textbook was i havent really fully come to terms with colleagues as a person though i see as, as a political actor. And so thats why i wrote this particular book and yeah, it was, it was a journey of discovery as far as i was concerned. And i suppose the most important thing i just got put on that journey. Was that okay . Yes. You know, style name was the intellectual amount of ideas, a great read the. He was a communist, he was a marxist. Right. But the thing, our discoveries, i didnt really understand before what the, he was a feeling intellect for, for the motional that from power. All these audiology and politics, right . And its the emotionality, the emotional falls off. Hes audiology these postings, which enabled him to actually rule in the particularly falling to take tutorial what he did. So its something emotionality of style. And as a, as a dictator and insulation that, that what that was the crucial revelation to me. But it also another point which id like to mention here, because im actually in the book, is that, you know, you might say, well, okay, so he was a feeling emotional intellectual. Would that be emotionality . Comfortable . And he asked that question, i think is that it coming from stallings early christian opry, before starting mostly developed monk safety. Was that the, the christian . And i think that this is the transmission of stallings emotional religion. Also, you havent really deals to feed into his mouth as a communist of a socialist. Yeah, well i mean, many scholars before, you know that, that the, this a server and attitude towards march says, and then the socialism was simply, you know, another form of religion for a menu of the leaders or his time. Many bolsheviks at least now. Uh you, you mentioned that many or stalins books contain extensive markings rich to quote, to you reveal that he valued ideas as much as power. And that he was a true believer in the strength of the worth. And it reminds me of the opening verses of the bible in the beginning was the worth, which could also be translated as in the beginning was longer as the meaning making capacity. And i think it already partially answered my question that i want to oppose it. And on the last, do you think there was something religious or newman thats about the way style is related to not just the ward but know which ignore this . Yeah, and just the truth, as youre reporting might be the last go. Those have noticed the connection between your stallings religious upbringing on these boxes. I think thats true, but i think the thing about the library is, is that you can actually see that in the solstice on the pages you can see solving stories that feet savings. Yeah. I suppose the only thing is to kind of on a geologically stalling definitively did you know, right. Weve, hes really just operating. Yeah. Stalling. Didnt see. Okay. Is that the magic marxist . He believed in the intrinsic any tunnel truth of marxism. But that wasnt for him. A mattress size, it was a mattress. What do you consider to be thought so scientific of absorbs of ation. Yeah. So yeah, that does an emotional connection between just on is the question, installing this as a communist. But at the intellectual crew cab uh, connection is much less. It is much more tenuous. Now as you write in your book, like all the bullshit of glitter style and believe that the reading could help transform know just peoples ideas and contrast those but human nature itself, he, sore writers, ends as a engineers and the human soul, which is the subject you have dedicated a separate chapter in, in your book, and when somebody is so eager to transform the human nature or re meg, the human. So i think theres usually something that they cannot accept as this and most likely in themselves. What do you think may style in so bad on re making their human so, and im asking a here in, not the you, im asking you not as a historian, but it truly is a human being because its a very intimate personal notation as a to you as a really interesting question of a personal question, im not going to give you a personal so old about should lead us were intellectuals, right. All of them believe the reading engagement body is all of them had a big library so strongly wasnt unique in that respect. Okay. Yeah, i guess it this question about transform submission stuff. Yeah, we got up to why was the cost of what was he and the both is constantly gross, be in that direction and theyre doing that because to their ideas that he would tokens, they genuinely kind of like believe that this transformation of human nature for their seeking is possible, of course they dont, patrice it out, because thats one of the fundamental effect use of the soviet property to solve it. Socially the site you get to actually create that utopia that theyre striving for. Now, personally, i can understand because i will see you type in an id this myself as a young man. So i understand that strong thing. And i also understand, you know, the personal emotional, think of it trying to cross something which you cant quite get there. And you, you understand, you know, the difficulties you have to so what doubts the skepticism about it. So i have, so theres a little personal insight into this book as well. That goes to the chemist between the install is that still on my mind to not do this, you remain the utopian. He was the rather prospect for this ideal, his power of protective steam from bell issue to some extent. And im also an avid student of psychology, and then psychology, idealization mental ization of rationalization in a tendency to make things abstract. They are considered to be a typical psychological defense is. When do you dont want to connect with the, you know, of human nature in yourself . When it seems to, you saw, you know, imperfect or disdainful that you would rather think about something, you know, shiny down the down the line and then address it in yourself. Yeah, i kind of agree with that, but lets dont forget the point im making the about the emotional basis of storage police. So these are geology and politics list also and also um lets do it on the site. The importance of kind of the rational for that this has things so it easy you believe this idea is a new, a rational grandparent. Beautiful brown, whose belief. Now im saying is right, but i dont you know it or rushing directionality oh, its boxes. And so, you know, it is like, its a combination of this combination of character, personality and emotionality. Combination of very typical steps. Human psychological traits. This always look at the, are a function of these rationalist audiology and politics as well. Can i ask you something because you are, you mentioned your book that you see him as what he would now call emotional intelligence. You dont believe that hes feelings, or in a sense the abilities are split off from. Hes called him def capacity. And i wonder if youve been able to track not only hes emotional reading of others, but hes own authentic feelings or maybe even suffering in those uh, you know, uh, markings on the sides of the books. But i tried to do that as best i county in the book, but even in a sense, its impossible for me to actually summarize the actually here. I think it was the davis inklings in yourself when you felt okay. I think this is a style in writing as a human being rather than as a great leader. He imagines himself to be and terms of these library. Yeah, thats the whole point of it. Yeah, punch Stories Library has his private reading. Yes, hes personal. Well yes it is. He wouldnt be read sometime later. Yeah. Well i think thats probably true. Might be towards the end of his life. Yes. Yeah. He must have been aware that he will become the object of the attention of people like video. Rather research is just like many id be coming in his ear. So i thought no, no but, but no, did the actual quality of these markings. Its very spontaneous. Its very, its very, very, very, very well. Thank you. Thats absolutely correct. There is an element of performance here, but its a very, very simple and adam and i have a context with of a confidential context with style and you speak your right to your editor. Yeah, then it is much, much more of a performance foot 4 foot for the item. Obviously shes putting on a shock. Thats not the case when we talking about his personal life rent thats, thats the interest. Thats the power of the soul. Well, i tried to do if i try to, you know, dont tell you this to show showed read how this works. So now we have to take a very short break. We will be back to discussing it in a short time. Thank you very much. The, [000 00 00;00] the, the best of all, the parts of the Geoffrey Roberts emeritus professor of history of the University College of course, of all, federal saelens library, a dictator of his books. Professor roberts, uh, in your book you suggested selling div north, re, quote from reading the works of his arch avenue as likely on trust. Keisha was also very much interested in the history of desires times which soviet propaganda, the time official soviet propaganda fully dismissed. And in order to engage with that kind of material, you consider a wrong or adversarial one needs to have a degree of flexibility versus until at the end. Toller ends, which is not how styling is remembers. What do you think compelled him to engage with the other . Do you think it was primarily his own personal drive or perhaps the commands of the office . Im not sure though. I used to live tolerance in relation to scholarly, but certainly flexibility. Okay. And the sale its the opposite of us a bit so invested to that. Yeah. In the context of him being an adult. My to him office. Yeah. Yeah. So it wasnt a big surprise to me when i discovered that stalling as an intellectual retina. Yeah. He was a learning intellectual. Thats not such, you know, such a big, big, a big surprise to what did surprise me was how much he thinks with his political opponents and how much he, he loved from his political, political opponents. Yeah. Okay. So he was a marxist that he believed in boxes and a lot of his reading was mostly stuff, obviously stuff, comedy stuff. Right. But. But he was prepared to read anything of that and then he won. Right. And he was prepared to learn from take out the estimate from that income and the guy still using the book is, is the study is his prostate process. Time was much more in the image of trotsky as an intellectual. Yup. For quite a long time. Let me quote with what the trust key wrote about style. And he describes him as a gift to the risk practicalities a strong wealth and persistence in carrying out his aims. But also devoid of creative imagination, restricted him his learning methods and political horizons and stubbornly empirical in his mind and trust. He also rode the styling always seemed to it to humans waste as a man who was destined to play 2nd or 3rd fiddle on him. Playing 1st was not due to style and so who talents, but rather the backsliding of the system. I wonder if you detected any sort of intellectual inferior warranty on the part of style and dont you think he was trying to compensate for something that he saw in trotsky but lacked in himself . No, no, i dont see that. So style he most of probably confidence as an intellectual. He was his own mind, his own monks. Its just, you know, his autonomy as a person, as a political outcomes. Not georgie came from leaving himself as an end to an intellectual here he didnt call to any. What do you mean . No, you need to present himself as being the names of people who got the the best you in the land. But he didnt. He was a photo of lending, but, but he yeah, he wasnt a prison of learning, unavailable. His personality. Acosta, i think clearly demonstrates that sensor was the bed. So yeah, but, but trust is denigration of stallings that youd like to very, very influential. If youre on the select shaped perceptions are starting from many, many, many decades now. Yep. Oh yeah. Especially perhaps in the west. 5th across. Absolutely. But, but that, that perceptions change even in the lesson. Probably a function of the fact we thought the collapse, the sort of union the open up as a rush at all cause historians and i was a much, much more materials. But you know, to work with. And this is your point is a completely different picture, not just installing but how sort of system from the one you can get from chelsea. And one of the discoveries of the, the post soviet period in the all cause has the, the extent to which talk it was an intellectual, unintended guys of light is unlike both, this is part of that, that body of what both cost. I have a particular and the sustain focus on strong safety, actual fitting in relation to his life as a reader and his and his personal library. As before, now its done is access to for him. Books was limited, not only because of the logistics, but also because he didnt know any other language other than russian in georgia. And yes, you point out thats telling how the high regard and diligence, interest for shes political contemporaries, like Winston Churchill or uh, Franklin Delano roosevelt. Do you think that the interest was reciprocated dressing, they, they saw a nickel in him as he saw in them. Oh boy, absolutely. I mean one of my other specialities is actually i think you must know was the stone is will lead to stalling during the 2nd world war. Im particularly the relationship between style in a churchill and was like, yeah. And this, theres no to look like respect the rules of the country that you had fist on, include respect for stallings no much, no, no, the 2 books and the profundity of the only c thinking what i found fascinating is that style in started the american constitution and i think it was almost a known both in russian and the west was that he was a, he presided over and was very much engaged in the works of the, of the soviet Constitutional Commission that was tasked with drafting the soviet constitution of 1936 thats at least in writing, attempted to give uh or a to encourage more active grass roots. Political participation in the constitution was passed barely a year before the great terrors which some millions of people to the depths are to be to the glove. And one thing that i, as a russian cannot understand, is this either secrecy, between putting so much time in at pardon into starting have various societies for government because i think that was his key interest in all. But he is a reading pursuits im yet verging so quickly so ruthlessly to the tyranny of the iron hand. How do you understand that you know, the patients with books and toto in patients with the imperfections of, of life and what governing stories overwriting the bro to you was to defend socialism, defend the revolution from the sentiment assigned to do whatever he could to contribute to socialism and no use for pattern gauging all kinds of projects, activities, which he saw as the thing, the goals, including your that link, you know, this new constitution on the 36 constitutional kinds kinds of other things. But, but in the end, you know, he was prepared to do whatever was necessary to reply with the funding the revolution. Add the at the costs to other huge costs to his society and his people. Absolutely. Because yeah, apps, because he was a utopia. Yeah. He believe this action was necessary. Believe you said that money funds, this actually is forced upon us by enemies. Right . If we dont do this, our enemies all going to crush us dot. That is the less than history. Its dawn as a read it. Ok. Its times of boxes, most of them is a big thing. His favorite topic was history and the, and the list especially. Yeah, you too, you mentioned the constitution. I was very surprised about stallings interest in constitutional loan. And if you meant, if you integrate it, its an interest, it seems to come when the discussing the new saw the constitution. He thought hes a, hes on research, theres not really very important point. Strong, always doctors on research, always talk is on really purpose of representing the display that i see here. Or if we perceive is that people so much f for the interest in researching those patterns, you know, a constitutional, uh, governing, etc. But he doesnt have the strings because pasadena patients to put it into practice. Because if you want to defend the revolution, you can defend it by your actions, you know, putting those ideas into practice and materialize and realizing them. But its almost like you persist them. And them some drops and the reverts to the old methods that hes defending against. Yeah. Well i think he has them as far as he can. But as i said, you know, he, hes prepared to do what i say. But the kind of argument youve made, its kind of argument of many people invite it in relation to style. It was just the note, the disjunction between these theory and his practice time, you know, you know, its been limitations, the limitations, okay, of, of him. So its tons of intellectual, if i single, essentially i to very serious read in song. Sometimes it can be quite profound and certainly that very effective. But in the end, you know, he says limits, its good for the human being or the geology policy. So deeply full drawn is political practice is usually kind of problematic. The reason you said because of the d p impact office. So if hes your disorder real on society, i know on, on im on millions of people folks, im not trying to cover anything on the month of yet for any points. One is thomas lester. So of course he doesnt have a date site and he has books and for the whole book, i mean, gauging with the questions your raising about strong his big to, to lower real. Im trying to reply to some explanation, some of the come on. So to, to, you know, why this kind of look, actually quite sensitive feeling intellectual is in many wise control of this bad stuff as well. Now were talking before about this quantity of religious attitude. This started and had towards the books and knowledge to the office. And i wanted to what a center thing the phenomena of stalin was specific to russia is collect the soul. Because if we look at the rest, the history of russia literature of the nonsense or the beginning of the 20th century, with all these painful soul searching. I wonder if the emergence of uh, leaders like styling the whole landing was also an out today. That was the inevitable. Yeah. What, as far as the rush is concerned, stone coast is very kind of looked skeptical about all this stuff about, you know, the russian. So, and the essential isnt very, in some sense, a very typical representative of anything you know, its own way, just the way out of the dime doing things by yourself exploring. Ive been very stubborn. Yeah. I feel good. I dont expect somebody to points to, i mean, i dont think strongly would say you can self that way. I dont think he would accept your analysis and i dont think i do either. You know, i think, i dont think you need to result to those kind of explanations. In over 20. I think its much more straightforward, but to actually see stein for what he was he to as we saw him today. So as a communist, as im office, as a political act, uh, product, a child of his society and thats the side as long history. Im certain for the elections and patterns, but he was nobody. He was fundamentally a product always on. But she says, dont i thought that was on . So if education right to my office, Political Police and commitments, marxism Company Makes much more sense to locate stones in that context. I think anyway, down it doesnt, you know, the context that a russian tradition but, but maybe maybe that somebody speaking that somebody speaking from, from my experience. So as we mentioned earlier in the angel as a young man, i was very likes, don. Except i was a pass if its relevant to live by thats but for you, what very lucky the menu i so political activists. Some, some im speaking from my experience, right . Yep. That may be from the russian perspective. Strongly can. Its a very different. I dont want to get too close to contemporary politics, but i do think that they sort of alternate that know stick tendency, coupled with a sense of the rushes of this thing. Destiny is very inherent to the russian that is shipped. And if you look at the right and they put him, hes also out today that he also has a sense of a special way for, for russia, not exceptional, but special way for russia. And i think hes or hes very open about it. He reads history books, no whole azure, but for governing in size. Yeah, i think uh, yeah, there, there are lots of very interesting um, comparisons to me by between installing a printer i, i dont think about that. See pushing as intellectual. I have to say in the same step. Okay. Pollutants engaged to avoid this by dont think the, i dont get the impression anyway. There was central, hes to his consciousness please. Is like being that i would stalling. Yeah. So, so yeah. So, so to me, certainly in case of ideas with reading, with literature costs and history. Yeah, i mean, just putting is this for magical about the history of stalling was actually, you know, the, the, the 2 main comparisons are active voice 3 to my why moment thinking about stalling them . 2 things. 2 things. Firstly, that was petra, its a 2nd lead to the both the voted multinational. And thats the break come to that the are seen between the soviet union, the saw and the Russian Federation that both will forensically, of Multinational Multi ethnic studies, but stalling and polluted committee to defend the, that multi that multinational character of all of their respect, respect just respect is, but i have one last question and to be only have a few seconds for you to answer it. But i wonder if the sense of autonomy is also one of the main underlying reasons for the current confrontation between russian, the west. This argument over low risk over of the wars with capital w, the rights of the worth and the rights you can most with your own thinking in your own way forward for your country. I, i guess i would tend to agree with you in a way, you know, in the west you have to kind of like all the geological stuff that always breaks to my mind. The arch is left to prefer both of the, of the soviet period to solve. So if it goes to the system, right. And you know, a good deal at d deal at the electrical stuff of fanaticism. Im done with it. Some of stalling that as, as, as, as, as a mock system and comments. So i think that, yeah, thats a very interesting point that you might have to live in there and thank you very much for your time in. Thank you. Congratulations on this very intriguing and very insightful book. Looks like super true, very intriguing and insightful. My pleasure and hope hopefully it was also your pleasure. Thank you for watching and hope to hear again on walter part the the the, [000 00 00;00] the disturbing images from causes largest in the hospital as it reaches a breaking point, overrun with casualties from the mounting board. Officials say over 700, the palestinian children had been killed by idea strikes and the other side of the conflict as rarely as gathers who honor the memory of those killed and taking a hostage by hama, sharing stories of their loved ones. My uncle site should pay