Over of director of the people fund this Transnational Foundation for peace or future research. Mr. O burke is great to talk to you again. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. Now mr. Over well leave in a very interesting era when almost everybody has an opinion, and its usually a very passionate one about the issues of war and peace. And its usually that war is beyond comprehension. That is, it does not need to be comprehended. It only needs to be condemned and definitely needs to be started. It does not need to be understood for all the underlying reasons. And i wonder if these very passionately tactical, but perhaps not the very labor it stands is directly responsible for the preponderance of conflicts in the world. Today. I think we make a distinction between violence and war and the one on slicks on the other media on people not to talk about them as you say, warfare or the last to do last year or so with those 2 or sounds and cetera. So what we do in the pieces of business is to look at the, on the line congress, because thats where the key to solutions on line. Thats never a solution to a conflict on the be in the battlefield. That has its own dynamics. And at some point, you know, the poppies will be exhausted on one when we know whatever. But when we look at is and i get dr. A dying most is whats on the line, the way we have a one year on there. And what are these that, what is the issue that stands between the policy is on that. So on the mentally important question because most people look at the war and then they take it as an who is right. It was wrong. Thats completely irrelevant. Same to do if youre a professional, you are, what is a problem that stands between the pod is one of these and they comp. So because violence comes when you call them your complex irritating violence as essentially as a, as a product. As a consequence of the preexisting disagreements, but i think more and more were seeing a violence or conflict being employed thats simply a means to achieving certain policy is not the ultimate result of the countries of size. Exhausting all the possible methods. But simply as the 1st option of achieving what you want, dont just think that perhaps the paradigm of how nation states i using the war has changed in recent years. Oh, absolutely. Particularly in the last few years when the west is going down, relatively speaking, im getting more and more desperate. Im not able to use the magic power, economic power, cultural power on all the way. Did i say in the 50s, sixties, and that is what you have left now, the only thing the west and the United States has go to that is one that obese or and then anybody else. However, that says they have lost all the war since we are not and morally and in terms of the law and everything. But i think also what you see is a parasite like activity at all, what i call min max, the military, industrial media, academic complex, mean mac, where you have smalley, who have never been elected to do anything well, the right behind the screens behind the politicians beyond the limits im from the image is on the enemy is we actually take somebody, you know, more money for the military. So you want, where as international, no one that you encounter clearly say that violent should be the last resort. Im article one stage. You shouldnt be stopping by peaceful means by law. Thats what all countries ive written, signed on onto you, and drops the that totally by and i to get every one is my lighting that today. And thats because the global system is in a huge transformation and change. Now, speaking about the International System and i checked some fingers to view as i was preparing for this conversation. And according to the United Nations of the out of 2022, for the 1st time in recorded history, the number of people forcibly displaced the reached 108000000 was over 35000000 refugees. And so we have a real just the ukranian conflict. We have uh, unprecedented number of people suffering all around the world. You singled out a couple of factors that i think contributes to that. But more generally, what do you think is driving this . Whats behind these ballooning number of both refugees and the internally displaced people, despite the fact that, you know, as he said, there was, seems to have lost many wars. But if keeps pressing the same strategy forward, you would see it this way that the wells priorities that would be totally perverse on the page. Its just getting worse. The, the, the, the Resources Available for, lets say, for piece, for development, for human rights. Well, what do you want . I would call good an important objects to goal is to achieve including the un uh, sure thing. Im gonna go and program, etc. Im way smaller than what the well, this countrys been on the mandatory if you take the United Nations, i think it has Something Like 10000000000. 00 for, for whatever it does. Oh wow. You handle them to sound 1000000000. 00 wasted on military if you could. And i could say, well, that is a valuable investment because the world is moving towards peace and would be on landing and with neutral understanding fast and beyond. That is, that was true. I would not say that they surpass thing, but the thing is weve never was never spent as much on the military on b as in secure as it is now. And its not ukraine is on the other place. If you find it is, and dont these on the stand be every single cell, right, in person and ukraine, you know, said because it is the touches my heart. But is this more complex in that respect, compared with what the United States and nato comes is, have done since 911. 00, for instance, were talking about millions of people being killed. And that is something we have to talk about. Why do we accept citizens that those priorities that each of our government suspended on limited sums it seems on the military that has never proved to make pays or make the whole well system better . Because we all are doing all these things to start over. And i are very passionately agree with you and disagree with you at the same time because i dont like this generalization. I think there are a number of countries, for example, even uh, you know, old, almost like saudi arabia and that iran that im moving away from this happening, its rivalry. And thats putting piece and development. It had all why, you know, i download trickle or religious disagreements, you know, there are other countries like, uh, lets say armenian turkey, also exploring ways all for doing it diplomatically settling the disagreement diplomatically. And i would argue that the russia for a number of years has tried to negotiate. Its a very essential disagreements when both nato and ukraine in groups phase. It has done that before the active phase of this conflict. And it says that there were several other rounds of negotiations in yeah, we have the same dynamic here. Its as if every new more that the west launch is, is like it happens it without any previous context. Its as if people have forgotten about the, wed be a, they forgotten about syria, theyre forgotten about vietnam, erupt, etc. What explains in your view, these collective . Im an agent on the past on the part of the western public, because we are aware of all the conflicts that have been bought around the world. And we are aware of what is you know, of the suffering, thats my country is causing to people in ukraine. Im ready to accept that fully and i have relatives in your brain. But it seems that when it comes to the west, it always has like some sort of a blank slate when it comes to every new conflict. I think is a very much to do with the fact that, you know, the west is kind of leader. I mean, if you are number one in the system, which i think United States still think that it is, then you teach, you dont mind this, this arrogance of power becomes worse and worse over time. Thats one thing. The other thing of course, is maybe thats controversial to say, but for me was been in this type of Academic Research on peace and conflict issues i was doing was owns most of my to go ahead and realized, i must say, i dont think its possible anymore. To understand western security and defense policy with rational analytical theory is concepts. Its is now moved into the re, all of the irrational emotional is calculus. The same thing. I mean, through everything nato stays on his homepage. There is no more. And now lets see, is that there is a past due which about your country about china being the new big slab on the boils down to is that because its different from us . So you invent, of course the threat to you because if you dont have a threat psychologically you cannot argue that tax pay should keep on throwing money into the militarist activities, such as well as a new weapon system. Such a new one, you know, as more on that military, industrial media, academic complex exist in lots of countries, your kind of fee to china, to you, right. And saudi arabia that you mentioned, everybody was driving forces outside the control of democratic decision making. Thats exactly what i, as in the hours that we have a military Industrial Complex that is beyond democratic control and its dangerous, it will be all the American Society and its resources and create a ticket. This is a very interesting question. Lets pause for a moment. We have to take a short break, but we will return to that after a few seconds station, the the is this the issue a new, the distance of the. So thats the series doing it for you, and you have them by see the display of this, of the property, but even the way needs yes. The cost, if youre seeing this stuff and you to see that you those and but the School Mental village doesnt notice. We are gambling with the future of all mankind and were, were risking it for not the the welcome back to world support with young over director of the people funded Transnational Foundation for peace and future research. Mr. Over before the break here, you mentioned this issue of the arrogance of power, and i dont remember who said it but or one of the analysts i are respect to the law of the size of the United States has indeed exceptional in being able to strike with impunity anywhere around the world as having unparalleled secures advantage, because no other country used to be, at least like that, no other country with striking directly. But as you mentioned, the military costs are rising up and theyre rising up not only in the United States, but i think what distinguishes obvious aside is from america, is that of a society that actually investing into themselves. Look at china and look at the russian look even at the ron and saudi arabia, theyre actually pushing resources into building material, the life of a, you know, Public Sector for, for the people. But i think of the United States all the advantages in terms of lifestyle theyve had. It is losing it quickly. When do you seeing these dynamic of the arrogance of power that is totally neglecting its own people while killing people overseas . When do you think it will catch up with the people within the west collectively . Oh, theres no doubt in my mind that you dont have to be a moral philosopher to know that the more power you have, the more capital. And im believe it should be. Now if you dont have that moral spiritual, whatever that mention to the fact that you have military where you can only go political and cultural power, it will go wrong. And thats it. Typically in decatur, oh, when empires go down, they get to be, they get impossible to manage all were extended, as you say. They usually gentle the see in the eyes of others. They militarized themselves to death, and they dont adapt to the changing world around them. They think they can bully my time, at least the old man who has done his best bet can bully the rest of the world. No. Trying to is a wonderful example of the way of thinking Defensive Thinking. Apart from the Nuclear WeaponsDefensive Thinking in the sense that we have a right to rise on how a system that is not the same as the west. And that is, of course, in contrast to russia, a much larger if you will, challenge to the western world or the us dominated impaired of the system. That theres somebody who has invested in social Economic Development lives just over a 100000000 people. Like you revaluate pros, art during watching, i mean this is just to make the case of the things are going on and im saying it all those mining because its so obvious what was, i mean, i predict this 40 years ago. I said when the soviet union falls, his brother in the west, well for unless it does Something Else such as closing down a top and creating homeland security. Ready in your i wrote that in 1981, and i dont understand why people cant see that those changes in the big world is now for us to adapt to be fine instead of trying to control. Because the wasted not only wasnt the 60 the well, they wont love to be too philosophical about it, but the old, the great powers, the thrush, or turn to have that period of great humiliation trying to have a center of simulation. We the russian goals or they are tumbled by a very bitter one. And back in the early 9. Tonight is a, maybe its time for the United States to, to do the same. But they seem to have concerns. Me is the, again, the militarization aspect of it because it seems that the United States is not going to go without the fide, and is prepared to set up the flames all over the world to do what . Because i mean, as you mentioned the, the system is running out of steam. Its not sustainable, not only is moral terms, but in practical terms, nobody wants to be within that system anymore. Even the american closest allies, what do you think these people are actually trying to achieve the Decision Makers in washington . What are they after . Because no matter how you look at that, its not possible in practical terms, nothing ethical ones, but then practical ones. I think its very much a matter of. Ready change inside the books, they dont understand the oil anymore, and of course i dont think it is about expelling or impressions, views, etc. That can challenge those. You have yourself. And then of course, as, as you are going to get, can get married a dangerous at some point because the goal of Decision Makers and they to around washington, browser, washington are of the belief that one cannot make mistakes. And we have made no mistakes on your right, but more and more of the rest of the world is turning away from the west. The past, everybody in the wall can do is to walk on 2 legs. If you asked me to my friend the relationship with the us, but keep it up as a dog antagonize it, dont pack it, dont do things, dont help it go down with grace and then work with all the others. I mean, if you caught shape or form policy in your, which wont come to lex a i, m b, u natural, us leg, and the rest of the world leg is intellectually not deciding to survive as a system in my view. But what i, what i argue with these days is that we live in a khaki star cross. Its only kind of his doctors, he means the government by the least stable and the least good people that seem to be re books. People dont have advice as people do not ask for any consultancy from people will disagree with them so they will learn something new. Thats why you associated with the west. Well, thats why people like i said, totally marginalized, never used by the way media which i was twinges the years ago. So this is, theres only one that ritual so on. Thats the most dangerous thing. Not only for the world that could lead to a new plan weapons way to be used. We know that, but its very dangerous for the west itself. Everything the United States. And i mean the, the moment im saying it was sadness because ive never been an american. It is self destructive the United States getting we go, you just look at, you know, 39. The chit and the white telephone. The american saw the pruitt china from a convention or something new in the field. And now theres a past the United States, and they do this at the time. And again, yeah, everybody in this industry, august 11th, has the right to be themselves including nations. If youre defined, if you see the threat to your existence, if you characterize it as somebody or somebody else is right to development, then its, its a lost cause because its a, he is actually also a very, to tell the tire in claim a if you ask me now, can we ship gears a little bit because e, right . Theres something very interesting that i want to argue with. You suggested the work must do away with the concept of re, ill pull a tick. Uh, because in your view its anything but a realistic and its a, its an interesting proposition. To me please, because i think when we have in your brain is the class between a manufacturing perception advanced by the west. We talked about that and the battle hardened re out, she pursued by russia. And it would seem to me that if uh more countries were to adopt re, ill pull it take approach like russia does, for example, the world would be a safer place. Dont you think like that of course the whole thing. Yeah, as you, when i would define reality, i do it in a more, lets say. So youre basically like in a way it is seeing the world as nation states as a National Security over a Common SecurityRegional Security model, security is maximizing ones own interest in some cases to the debt from and to others. Is a warranty to military means when things get tough, you know, those kinds of things in mind. You and thats how i define it often without long explanations. Its something that has to go and we all tell us cheek has brought us where we are now. And that is the most dangerous situations at 1940 high, thats the way. So its main gate, for instance, you know, you have western and i would say russian and chinese leaders was on the do not think necessarily in the terms 1st on non violent, concrete resolution and column security. Well, the, because as you know, when the soviet union collapsed to russia and china had over, i think, 8000 territorial disputes. And these 2 countries painstakingly negotiated all of them to the point. Very sure, we now have the longest border of china and we can afford to be shipped from the border and ship richard to west when we are dealing with ukraine. Because there is a trusted relationship, a win win relationship. And the recognition by both countries that in the longer term, its far more beneficial for them to, you know, have that container over relationship and argue over many school things. What do you think stands on the way on the United States or the west adopting the same approach . That sure you put the your interest 1st, but at least you can have the 4 side understanding that if you put your adversary down, then it will come back to her to im sure what i mean to say is that civilian concrete, resolution, mediation of reconciliation, forgiveness un order Peace Keeping strong un compared with National Organizations and military all week, or thats why i say real apologies, not, not the right way to go. If you ask me what we need to do in this world, and i read an issue, johns and go about the future peace system of the world in chinese china investments. The only ones who are interested in global thinking today, really the journey is that we reduce violence everywhere, violence against nature of violence, against each other minus the games cultures, mans violence against women on the violence between actors address. As i said in the beginning, was, stands between us because they will always be complex and then it be the marriage is for a work place. Any conflicts are lovely, we should, we should accept and celebrate our differences because that makes the world weak. And then what you find down from the trees and know how to use toolboxes, where theres Something Else, but a hammer in that you see what i mean. Its, its, its this whole thing thats, that makes me believe that reality is dangerous for us all. And i dont know that country that hasnt ministry or piece. I dont know anybody who tries to college and knowing what piece and comment resolution is. But we have tons of military expertise. We have legal expertise, our political addition to what more weapons, unless whatever you can take the whole problem. And they, marvins week old apologies released to minute from left to right offshore. I mean, you know, this is a real College Extension that i think most go nobody talks about finding a negotiated solution it on, on the, by the way, not to you grind it russian conflict, but the nato, russia that plays out and you find because thats what it is, i think the goal for all humanity to survive is to bring to file of content violence and do Something Else. And the only possible i tell you as a huge tool box for that, the institute around the world which deals with a design limit. And similarly in civilized concrete, resolutely needs data beating nature. Absolutely. Can i ask him or something about the cost like so you spoke where personal are they about . And then that happened to study psychology on the side and including a couple of counseling. And indeed within a couple of come counseling is considered a conflict. These is the only way of developing, you know, you uh, address your disagreements, your voice, your disagreements. Honestly, you are trying to address them by bringing them to the calls that makes door negotiating table. But there is one very important clause in a to our calls like this, that both sides consider themselves to be equal. That means that you have your choose. I have my truth and we are not seeing each other as you know, like a shining cd on a human desponding wit wisdom to you know, the rest of the People Living somewhere down there valley. Do you think the west will ever, on a moral ethical, psychological, to a suffolk, a level x sap that is on par with everybody else that everybody else . Russians, chinese, why the americans, africans, whatever we are old people on, we are entitled to own vision of the world in peace and humanity just as much as the people in the west are wonderful question again. Thank you. Yes, i believe thats possible. I think the west, if you mean the u. S. Natural system will have to go in where to go when the empire has crumbled or decline to become less important and they will be, we think the width is good enough intelligence model on culture it enough to really say its own policy is by the man and you have somebody who runs this is a dont say, just go as long as you have those leaders, there is not much help, but in my view, thats not, thats only going to take a few more years. What do you and i dont know sitting here talking about it is whether the west or m, i will review s, m, i. And they told me to go down. We go back over the weekend, but what i think is possible that theres one reason that i would side with us skepticism that is christianity as a, as a co allow you. And thats part of your country and, and ill guthrie, the width of this. Dont be compact with, you know, the wisdom system and china. We just completed the room at these 2 brothers if you will, march, and adam smith, extra caricature a little bit is, is a built on the idea on mission. We want to make somebody else a little bit, my gosh, or if they dont do it, you know, with the bible, we come with a sword thats not in the bodies and what confusion is all the other isnt. So if we could learn from others, like they have learned from us, human, a human is dialogue about how to create unit teen diversity. Im song conflict with much less miles make made, you know, a real nobel peace prize. The more for those who built down there um is that Something Like inviting the, the, the, the, the confidence building measures. I take a little step and invite you to take a little bit down was also from the, from the high levels of weapons or virus. Of course, we can do a why we dont spend 50 years of my life on this. I think these things, i do believe it is possible possible, whereas what we do now is not possible in the long run. Well, mr. Over at our time is up. Thank you very much for being with us today. My right. Thanks a lot. And thank you for watching cold to syria again, and was in part of the the, the, [000 00 00;00] the, the, we are in contract, the land of fire breathing volcanoes. Volcanoes vividly capture the imagination and they define our lives much more than you would expect. So what are they capable of and what makes kentucky . Does volcanoes stand out the acceptance . And im here to plan with you. Whatever you do. Do not watch my new show. Search like why watch something thats so different whitelisted or opinions that he wont get anywhere else. Welcome to please or do you have the state department to see i a weapons bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. Choose your fax for you. Go ahead, change and whatever you do, dont want my shell stay main street because im probably going to make you uncomfortable. My show is called stretching. But again, you probably dont want to watch it because it might just change the way it