Hello and welcome to the cross topic . Were all things are considered. Im peter live out in many ways the west ukraine proxy war and russia is all about narratives. First deployed was russias unprovoked attack. Then it was admitted, it was natos expansion. Ease that served as a catalyst starting the conflict. Now were told its all about the future conflict with china. Take your pick. Its all boils down to western to germany, the process in russia and china. Im joined by my guess, carl john in raleigh. He is a political analyst is doreen and host the silk and steel podcast and in london we have a real consumptive. He is the founder of a k consulting and a Foreign Affairs analyst, right across top roles that affect gentlemen jumping in time you want. And i always appreciated. All right, let me start out with carl in, in raleigh. As i said in my introduction, weve seen over the last 20 months, these, this change of the sig ways in, in the narratives and how to describe what was go, what is going on now in ukraine 1st, that was the unprovoked attack. And then a few weeks ago, 10 days ago, spelt and berks as well. Yeah. Does this happen because of nato expansion and now particularly coming out of the United States as a whole, this is a, this is a, a right to is conflict because it, its a, it will divide brush it from china will degrade chunk, the china is ally, russia i mean its, its very interesting how weve got to this point because those that wanted cold war 2 point, oh, well, theyve certainly got it, havent they, carl, a yes indeed. I mean, at this point, theyre just throwing see shes on the wall to see what sticks. And they are trying to come up with Different Reasons why we need to send hundreds of 1000000000. 00 to ukraine, to fund the weapons of munitions, to ukraine, to fight the russians. First of fort, wes is not able to defeat russia. Second, why is there a need to have a hostile relationship with russia or china . These are never explained to the public because theres not even a public debate about it. Its just a given that we somehow must be engaging, hostile confrontation with both nuclear superpowers, russia and china. This is frankly insane. We need to have more discussion about the, about this ad, the, the administration, you washington. They need to come clean to explain why theyre doing this, but of course they wont because the real reason theyre doing this is to continue to follow tax payers money to the military Industrial Complex, just like to wondering what sort of set of time this on wasnt about award that us planning to window off. Candice time it was about the bundle tax payers money into the military Industrial Complex. And this is what were seeing again in ukraine. I dont know on the, on the same note here. I mean, it seems to me now in retrospect that this was i planned forever war just as carl is explained to us here. I mean, the griffith ended in afghanistan, 20 years pretty good. Gripped but the grips up. Are you ukraine . Now youre getting into the big number a category, okay . And we, we know that from a, a briefing that was given a few days ago to congress is that theres no timeline here. And in the amount of money that is the needed will be end. Lets hear this is a shirley and, and a forever war with washington doesnt want to end and end up the added advantages. Lindsey graham says, you know, no americans are dying, but a lot of the ukrainians are en route. Go ahead. Oh yes, visa, um i do agree with you, but 1st of all i have to start with some make you know, very clear on not paying attention to media negative and paying attention to a Bigger Picture which is a both of it stopped from the both of his talk through the husband of the 1992 to New York Times a t says that the only superpower in the world can be United States. According to this doctrine, ever since that time, as edwards um, kind of the, of the find a sense of from United States pointed out, it wasnt a clear cold for the 21st century americans imperialism that no country kind or should accept. But this is the motive, so from the United States in washington, dc, regardless of what the particular uh president will be in the office or the government. I mean, the politicians will well, they will say in the, in the public. Obviously we remember the, the big chain, you know, about time and clean power. Were trying to, you know, some how a manage the crisis, all of the kids on the approval for vig stockton by the ever since 1990 to dispense. And we are seeing this, clearly we have our own, i stuck america as it is, will not allow a russia to be a competitor or a china, whether it is possible in that capacity to, to, to make this happen is be on the question. But what im trying to say is that regardless what is the media and they rated, regardless of what problems all said about the america should come clean. I mean america, we have a company with, with the intentions of us, as we all know, americas of motors of on the east to be a sole superpower in the world. A nice thing, the, the is food 5. To think that the, im any elections in, you know, i could say would change this because the know right to vote a gemini, of imperialism is the only country that is, has the ability or a privilege to set the rules. And in this case, the, in a Level International order is the United States and is the countries like china, old russia stand in the way. This creates a, a huge problem and the potential ingredients for the complex im place. So this is my understanding of the current situation. I think your point about the world of its doctrine is actually spot on. And i remember very clearly when it was rolled out with scoffed out, it was actually made a made fun of, but in fact it became policy. And youre also right. Is it, it doesnt matter whos in the oval office, this continues. But karl, i will push a little bit back against that. I think, i think narratives are important because narratives are used to sell it to the public. Okay. And weve seen um, you know, the, the, like, particularly the political right in the United States. You know the problem with the c, so you paid, lets say you say it pays me. They never talked about a china is being communist until it became a threat. And, but i think narratives are really important because thats how you sell it to the public. And the republicans in the United States, they will be on board for this if they can say, well, if, if this is against russia and it hurts china, okay, were all in. That is a segue carl. And i agree, absolutely. Because so there is a divide in United States, whereas the republicans want to have worked with china and the democrats want to have worked with russia. So there are some planners say, well, why can we do both really literally saying that United States must prepare to have a war with russia and china, which is absolutely insane. And right, right now the best of all this excuse is really because there has been a space captured by the military Industrial Complex in the United States. You know, us likes to say its the leader of the free world. Its a worlds greatest democracy, but we have what we have in us right now is a plutocracy, a government wrong for the wealthy by particularly the walls, the leads that owns the weapon. Manufacturers like the re fee on Lockheed Martin and boy, and the country is now being run for their profit. And this is why we must continue to engage you more across the world. You know, 1st off the amazon, you rock and libya, syria and now ukraine. So, so it really didnt matter except right now i think theyre biting more than they can chew because russia in china, theyre not, you rocks, theyre not libya, they are armed with well, well talk karl, you must been a, be a watch or of this program because ive been saying this for years. Ok, the United States only gonna address right now. A lot of the United States has never had to confront a peer adversary. They have with russia, and this is something new and its about working out the way they expect to go ahead and loved them. Of the site. Sure. Uh, i mean, uh, well, uh, according to the, to the, the modern plans. I mean, obviously they, they, they constantly plan the, they make the projections about the, uh, single future about the rules and so as a whole. So they need a new draft. I mean, they need more people. Uh, and in order to join the army, um the topic is the um, the quality of the people that can join the army even though the water is sweeping around the west of low, especially in the United States states. I mean the obesity, the low, the lot of, uh, uh, discipline the drug addiction, drug addiction, all that, all sorts of mental illnesses. So say this really. Uh so, i mean, this is the business that you the, and these, all the facts ive had that we know and so and so forth. But we have to understand that the people i liked potable prevents in all the neo conservatives. And you can add to the cult of incentive the new liberals, people and say so regardless where the, the facts and the, the states of style saw this and shows all the other way around. Like, for instance, like cause out the very beginning is that it was impossible for you for you to win the war. I mean, just recently a president , that was the least, he said, and hes one of many of the number is speech is that without the with you brain will, will wont be the strong will be defeated, which is always to any, any, any effect fits a gray the person who has a child, students who attended high school, are going to school with some at some point, is the fact that the same people, not mucous of that they, they failed treatment by decide tricity thoughts to total with the rush up to with the china and the greed because these will, our commercial was the, was full risk. Hello susan, the wholesale full, the market share. So of a, by understanding basis. But you know, america, its really been hijacked by the people who are well and for the before we go to the baker i, i agree with the reason there, but i think theres an element of hubris as well, in moral superiority. Thats very much part of this message. They, you know, in china and russia are, are, you know, you know, culturally inferior, you know, the west is the best. I think thats very much part of the 15 seconds before we go to the break. Go ahead. Ed real oh yeah, i agree with you. I mean, we know that the International Relations as a discipline is racially charged. I mean, numerous academic books about the uh, based system on racial, you know, struct, if occasion within the national relation itself and, and russia as an insult is treated as us. Yeah. Take the, i have to jump here gentlemen, we have a hard break. And after about hard grades, well continue our discussion on russia and china and the state guardian, the membership of stainless things. Let me go for success that i knew the what a single age. And i will do what im doing this for him. For as far as like a lot of 2 families, some sort of them be now what are some of the progress dealer, presenting Energy Authority to pay that the i c m. Assume is what the pope with tears rolling on that i was searching for the committee to push the way through. Its a cabinet that ive used the 1918, the countries of the west one, the final victory over the ottoman empire. The sultans government capitulated to the inside and sign that humiliating armistice. Hello, dress. Great britain, france and a delay. Want it not only to destroy the ottoman empire, but also to divide the prime orderly turkish lands among themselves. In 1919, their armies began to land on turkish territory. But the west decided to choose greeks as the main striking force. Seeking to make others realize this aggressive plan. For an intervention, provo mass, indignation among the turkish peoples. The National Liberation struggle was led by the experience of general mustafah come all as a 3rd in order to bear down the enemy, a bank on the mobilization of the nation. And the alliance with russia, which acted as a united front, with turkish patriots. At the end of august 1922, the 3rd army won a decisive victory over the invaders in the battle of doom. Libby not and within a month liberated all asia minor from them. The impressive success of the circus army force the west to make concessions. In 1923, the loss on these treaty was signed to turkey. One of the 1st countries in asia manage to defeat the colonial empires and defend its independence. Becoming an example for millions of viet press on the planet. The welcome back. Across stock were all things are considered. Im peter in the mail to remind you were discussing russia and china of the okay, lets go back to carl and raleigh carl. I am older than you. Im older than ad rail. So i have a little bit of wisdom on my side in memory. Okay. But you know, im a child of the cold war literally, you know, the entire cold war. I lived through it and they had something, i guess people forgotten about. It was called, they talked, why cant the west have they talk with russia in china and other countries . The one thats not on the agenda. Okay. All we get is this kind of Joseph Burrell nonsense. That were the garden and youre not, youre the jungle. That is a very primitive way of looking at the world, and not to even considering peace and peaceful coexistence is an insult to the times that we live in co head. Carl. But its about jobs and careers. I mean, why do people like joseph, where all of us have a job, isnt the founder lane. Uh, people like that. What do they do exactly, except asking us most peace, washington. I mean, you know, carl, carl david worth, hes a mouth piece for zalinski. I mean, it gets worse. So good thing, keep going. Carl. What the, the, the whole, the whole edifice of nato exist just to come to rochester, if rush, if you west and russia or china or to become friends, youre going to throw out all these, natal bureaucrats, all these things tankers out of jobs. So its, is there, there is their own self interest in order to maintain their salary, their lift main standers. They must perpetuate war, and they must continue to show for this war. We was, this is, this is very unfortunate back, but deep, but also you, us there. So we have talked about, theres a lot of hubris, you know, why do us the empire act and wait . They do well, why did dogs eat cheese . Because they tell us sounds like you could throw his weight around because of it. Yeah, yeah. Hes used to throw his weight around without calling to resistance. Well, this time is different because russia and china is much more, its much more appear near to your competitor to the United States and anything us as an encounter before. And i need to remind people us have never really won a war against a near competitor. You know what were to, its a soviet union that did most of the heavy lifting us did do quite a bit in the pacific war. But then japan wasnt appeared a competitor of the United States. And now us be speaking to fight russia and china, your co work got to they thought you could win. But guess what, todays russia in china is not the soviet union of yesterday years. Today were looking at the brakes that has a larger, larger economy that all of the g 7 combined. This is why theres a lot of of a panic also in washington. And are you working capital . Theyre trying to preserve the gym, the lesser and the gemini, at any cost, including waging up very terrible proxy work. The ukraine. Yeah. Well, i dont know also. Uh, it would be, uh, uh, it would be a shame if we didnt remember what happened exactly. Almost a year ago, let me think. Oh, the destruction of the north stream pipelines. Okay. Of course no one will. I guess well never know. You know, thats, you know, one of those great mysteries of the cosmos. But they the echo would carl was saying to maintain that head germany, youre willing to damage your so called friends, go ahead in london. A well does well then law straight to the bottom line, a terrorist as are, is it bit for, well, it was one of the greatest a commercial terrorist attacks. And the western history that we know, and i, i do believe is the germans have dignity. I mean, some germans, im sure that they are over there. And this is a ticking bomb that the United States set one year ago. And it will blow into the full collective west face. In the coming months or years, i will lay the ground, the past, laid the ground for full of the night to dismantle it goes, go live it may i the pregnancy. Im not the lead this other as it is also well that many what they call it a dream. It remains to be seen. It remains to be seen nice. I agree with your son to ment. Okay. But to have what i refer to him is Sergeant Schultz standing next to biden, you know, i mean a, i mean, the absolute complete full. He was a, was made out of. He made himself a full. Okay. And um, and he just stood by. So i. 9 hope that there will be consequences. Karl, you know, nature always says nato is a defensive alliance. Okay. Well, it looks like it wants to militarize asia and going into confront, encounter china. Well, china is not gonna take that sitting down like to know that different than russia as well. I was not aware of the north atlantic now its, its extends to this i was trying to see. But realistically natal that youve been with the war a proxy where you, you quitting again is russian. What realistically can natal do in china, in the, you know, place that so far wrong from europe, they have to fight whats still called the tyranny of distance is just to ferry all the materials to be co, to, to fight in china sprung yard essentially. And lets not forget, china is a worlds factory. Chinas industrial capacity drawer for even that of the United States. And right out of us, just basic when comp prowling, its all vassals, european bass, so to say are the only its war with china because us know by itself you cannot win against china. And now your opinion leaders like bounder lane, like joseph bar out there, committed suicide for you. You because us use this, essentially cannibalizing is allied to sure is still showing up is onto the 1st capacity. Thats what we have seen after the bombing of north streams. All the unit, jeremy industrialists, now they have the can for United States because they no longer have access to cheap rushing gas as well as well. I mean, i guess im glad that was brought up because i liked cannibalizing allies, and thats exactly whats going to happen. I mean, the europe is being de industrialized i, i dont see it as in much of an asset. If it is, its the industrialized poor in recession all of the time. What kind of waiting is that andrew was it says even for, for the United States only did so 11. 00 competitor, a potential competitor down. And we know that going back to the most true question, is that for united . So why dont the greatest stressful the United States in depth perspective was a close alliance between German Economy and russia. So once you have you down and you know, for, for john and Companies Moving the, you know, uh, from production to United States that the china to any other countries. Yeah. They, they, duster lies in the europe is no longer uh, from United States. I would say i would go even further the United States never see europe as an online. It was a us at the corner of the, a bustle, approximate. So if youre a mazda and about so the relationship is slightly different on the dynamic between friends. We never been friends and, and im the United States. I mean, the americans know this and you, europe in europe is also in the service only than the, the, the so called charless browse and others youve been put in place because youre being you, you know, i think i prefer to go about measuring the spot that youre in, you, you have all the creational, c i United States, in order to unified europe on the flag and, you know, they have the continent to be easily managed by the United States. So you can union is an american construct, i would say, uh so, um, yes, i mean you have, the union has come up with that kind of blogs and youd be the european within countries of whether you will be in countries a key to be come on board come, you belies, im not sure we can see the hungry we can see, oh, strongly can see other countries who are slightly moving away from the race be both by the United States. I mean, also when it comes to a bulk inspection of russia, all those drugs know, willing to have 9 participants from, from, from moscow doing the, um, the, the, the, the, the meetings, all of their demonstration hungry. We know that hungover and stuff from the very beginning business. The many other countries grew up behind because theyll stay the same amount of time rebut all reluctance, old cowards, the girl. What does it normally do to, to join the court with, with, with living to all the we shall see. I wouldnt hold my breath because palms are changing and people are the fools. But what is happening in the National Elections and people will be voting with their feet. So in order to stay in power, you have to somehow please your electric. And if youre not facing your electric, you all down. And weve seen this in an easy and weve seen this in, in numbers of the European Countries or across the west as well. So we shall see. I mean i, i wouldnt hold my breath, i wouldnt hold my breath either, but i wouldnt be, i dont think its out of the question. Considering these new conventions about this information is that some of elections will just be called no one boy, nope. Nope, there was, there was outside in the interview and so you know, that we, we void the selection, theyre gonna start doing that. Okay. Uh carl. And what is the major lesson is china . Do you think is drawn from this ridiculousness and ukraine, a conflict that never should have started in the 1st place . What conclusions would they draw as well . I think one conclusion is to be drawn is your us is a paper tiger. I mean, look at us is having trouble to supply artillery and munitions to ukraine. This were talking about country that spends nearly a trillion dollars in dfcs budget that have larger defensive budget. And next to the top 10 countries combined. Yet they do not have the industrial capacity to simply produce artillery shells for ukraine. So russia is, this is not only taking on ukraine. Russia is taking of the United States and always european bass, so as whats and rushes whitney so that what china can take away from that is the, you know, us military is this giant load where that, um, you know, its not what its the hollywood cracked up to be well, i mean, you know, its interesting carl, but they dont, you know, they dont want to send certain weapon systems. You know, they, theyre always hesitate. I dont, i dont think its because theyre afraid of escalation. I think theyre afraid the world can see that the most of their military hardware is junk. Okay. And its very over priced junk. Okay. Because now were going to see these abram tanks. They will burn like any other tank in ukraine. And this is something that the pentagon is very worried about because you know, our sales are very, very important, and they want to keep selling them to europe. So i think thats one of the hesitations. They have not escalation, not, not g o politics. Dollars is what concerns the gentleman weve run out of time on a think, my guess in raleigh and in london. And of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our t. So you next time. Remember across the the, the a sous 2060 numerous monuments to soviets soldiers in poland, ukraine and the Baltic States have been destroyed or vandalized fish there. So by pharmacy to be the most certainly within. Yeah. Unless or even some others could. I skip everything. So thats the most on my page, its especially almost 3 of the to Police Government denies the rules, so itd be its own just in the victory over naziism. And is it raising historical memories of world war 2 is the 40 piece when you order. Although it did seem the non c regimes, the trustees would remain, thinks in peoples consciousness, but have a but as long as russell phobia is profitable and brings dividends, you are willing to have a to rewrite the past. Yes, for to take up the aisle provides just leave me a message i need to see because it looks like so. I need to be the finalization as far as this is also as read how written mode there is from across the globe idea, moms the exposition of the mind, responsible for getting the president feeling of ideas online, appearing to show proof, thinking independent service into run vote football with an indian flag wrapped around it. We discussed the card and tentatively not to. Im a new dairy with the interviews, ruby policies for amino physician for the into the bucket, eyes and victorian this weekends love to call him and see elections. If that happens, a good thing, big changes the process, well the supports lien for this war effort. The