The cross talking russia and china. Im joined by my guess, carl john in raleigh. He is a political analyst is doreen and host of the silk and steel podcast and in london we have a real consumptive. He is the founder of a k consulting and a Foreign Affairs analyst or across soc rolls, in effect, gentlemen jumping down me one and i always appreciated. I let me start out with carl in, in raleigh. As i said in my introduction, weve seen over the last 20 months, these, this change of the subways in, in the narratives and how to describe what was go and what is going on now in ukraine. First it was the unprovoked attack and then a few weeks ago, 10 days ago. Stilton breakfast. Oh yeah. This happened because of nato expansion. And now particularly coming out of the United States. Is it . Oh, this is a, this is a, a right to is conflict because it, its a, it will divide brush it from china will degrade chunk the china is ally, russia. I mean its, its very interesting how weve got to this point because those that wanted cold war 2 point, oh, well thats certainly got it, havent they, carl . A yes indeed. I mean, at this point, theyre just throwing ccs on the wall to see what sticks. And they are trying to come up with Different Reasons why we need to send hundreds of 1000000000. 00 to ukraine, to fund the weapons of munitions, to ukraine, to fight the russians. The 1st at fort west is not able to defeat russia. Second, why is there a need to have a hostile relationship with russia or china . These are never explained to the public because theres not even a public debate about it. Its just a given that we somehow must be engaging, hostile confrontation with both nuclear superpowers, russia and china. This is frankly insane. We need to have more discussion about the, about this ad, the, the administration, you washington. They need to come clean to explain why theyre doing this, but of course they wont because the real reason theyre doing this is to continue to fund out tax payers money to the military Industrial Complex, just like to wondering what sort of set of time this on wasnt about award that you was planning to window off again. This time it was about to follow taxpayers money into the military Industrial Complex. And this is what were seeing again in ukraine. I dont know on the, on the same note here. I mean, it seems to me now in retrospect that this was i planned forever war just as carl is explained to us here. I mean, the griffith ended in afghanistan 20 years pretty good. Gripped but the grips out for you, ukraine. Now youre getting into the big number category, okay. And we, we know that from a, a briefing that was given a few days ago to congress is that theres no timeline here. And in the amount of money that is the needed will be end. Lets hear, this is a shirley and, and forever. War with washington doesnt want to end and end up the adage. Advantages Lindsey Graham says, you know, no americans are dying, but a lot of the ukrainians are en route. Go ahead. Oh, yes. Uh visa. Um, i do agree with you, but 1st of all, i have to start with um, making, you know, very clear on not paying attention to media negative and paying attention to a Bigger Picture which is a both of its stopped trend and the both of his talk through that has been out of the month to 92 to new york times. A tv says that the only superpower in the world can be United States. According to this doctrine ever since that time, as edwards um, kind of the of the time i send it from United States pointed out, it wasnt a clear cold. Uh, for the 21st century americans imperialism that no country kind of or shoot next steps. But this is the most of, most of, from the United States, the washington dc, regardless of what the particular uh, president will be in the office or the government. I mean, the politicians will well, they will say in the, in the public. Obviously, wed remember the, the big change out the time and clean power were trying to, you know, some how a manage the crisis, all of the linkage of the approval for vig stockton by the ever since 1992 this spends and we are seeing this clearly we have our own, i stuck america as it is, will not allow a russia and to be a competitor or a china, whether it is possible to the capacity to, to, to make this happen is be on the question. But what im trying to say is that regardless of what is the media and they make that regardless what calls all said about the america should come clean. I mean america, we have a complete with, with the intentions, as, as, as we all know, americas of motors of on the east to be a sole superpower in the world. A nice thing that the is fruit 5 to think that the, im any elections in, you know, i could say would change this because the know, ready to book the gemini of imperialism is the only country that is, has the ability o, a privilege to set the rules and in this case, in a level, International Order is the United States, and it is the countries like china, old russia stand in that way. This creates a, a huge problem and the potential of ingredients for the complex im place. So this is my understanding of the current situation. I think your point about the world of its doctrine is actually spot on. And i remember very clearly when it was rolled out, was scoffed out. It was actually made a made fun of, but in fact it became policy. And youre also right. Is it, it doesnt matter whos in the oval office, this continues. But karl, i will push a little bit back against that. Well, i think, i think narratives are important because narratives are used to sell it to the public. Okay. And weve seen, you know, the, the, like, particularly the political right in the United States. You know, the problem with the ccp, the cc paisley, they never talked about a china is being communist until it became a threat. And, but i think the narratives are really important because thats how you sell it to the public. And the republicans in the United States, they will be on board for this if they can say, well, if, if this is against russia and it hurts china, okay, were all in. That is a segue carl. I agree. Absolutely. Because so there is a divide in United States, whereas the republicans want to have worked with china and the democrats want to have worked with russia. So there are some planners say, well, why can we do both currently, literally saying that United States must prepare to have a war with russia and china, which is absolutely insane. And right, right now, this of all this excuse is really because there has been a space captured by the military Industrial Complex in the United States. You know, us likes to say its the leader of the free world. Its a worlds greatest democracy, but we have what we have in us right now is a blue talk or see a government wrong for the wealthy. By particularly the wealthy leads that owns the weapon. Manufacturers like the re fee on Lockheed Martin and boy, and the country is now being run for their profit. And this is why we must continue to engage you more across the world. You know, 1st off the amazon, you rock and libya, syria and now ukraine. So, so it really didnt matter except right now i think theyre biting more than they can chew because russia and china, theyre not your rocks, theyre not libya, they are armed with well, well talk karl, you must been a b, a watcher of this program because ive been saying this for years. Ok. The United States only gonna address right now. A lot of United States has never had to confront a peer adversary. They have with russia, and this is something new and its about working out the way they expect to go ahead and loved them. Of the site. Sure. Uh, i mean, uh, well, uh, according to the, to the, the modern plans. I mean, obviously they, they the cost of the plan the, they make the projections about the, uh, single future about the rules and so as a whole. So they need a new draft. I mean, they need more people. Uh, and in order to join the army, um the topic is the um, the quality of the people that can join the army. You know, the, what, cuz they sweeping around the west of low, especially in the United States states. I mean, the of, of the city, the well, the loss of a discipline, the drug addicts, a drug addiction, all sorts of Mental Illnesses ill say is really uh, so, i mean, this is the, this is which is the, and these, all the facts ive had that we know, and so as a whole, but we have to understand other people i like for both of us and all the neo conservatives. And you can add to the cult of incentive the new liberals, people and same. So regardless where the, the facts and the, the states status on this and shows all the other way around. Like, for instance, like cause of the very beginning is that it was impossible for you credit to win the war. I mean, just recently, a president , zip is the least, he said, and hes one of the many of the number of speeches that without the with ukraine will, will, wont be destroying, will be defeated, which is always do any, any, any effect fits. A great uh, i mean the person to advertise due to the time of the high school, i went to school with some at some point. This is the fact that the same people like me were conservative. They, they, they are treated by decided tricity. Thoughts took total total was rushed out to with china and degree because these, well, our commercial was the, was full risk. Those isnt the whole state full the market share. So, but by understanding basis, like, you know, america, its really been hijacked by the people who are well and for the before we go to the baker i, i agree with the reason there, but i think theres an element of hubris as well, in moral superiority. Thats very much part of this message. They, you know, the china and russia are, are, you know, you know, culturally inferior. You know, the west is the best. I think thats very much part of it. 15 seconds before we go to the break, go ahead. Ed real . Oh yeah, i agree with you. I mean, we know that the International Relations as a discipline is racially charged. I mean, the movers, academic books about the bases and then racial, you know, destructive occasion within the national relation. And so when russia, as an insult is treated as us. Yeah. Take the i have to jump here gentlemen, we have a hard break. And after that hard grades, well continue our discussion on russia and china and state the the recognition sort of thing you made. So that way they might still go to the new approaches and then of course, the feeling either or more for more than the frontier needs that the chest into assisted living. I think the 1st one says workspace is interesting. One is near reading it the cheapest one on to the welcome back across the top, where all things are considered. Im peter in the mail to remind you were discussing russia and china. The okay is go back to carl and raleigh carl. I am older than you, im older than ad rail, so i have a little bit of wisdom on my side in memory. Okay. But you know, im a child of the cold war. Literally, you know, the entire cold war. I lived through it and they had something, i guess people forgotten about. It was called, they talked why cant the west have . They talked with russia and china and other countries, and one thats not on the agenda. Okay. All we get is this kind of joseph burrell. Nonsense, that were the garden and youre not, youre the jungle. That is a very primitive way of looking at the world, and not to even considering peace and peaceful coexistence is an insult to the times that we live in. Go ahead, carl. Its about jobs and careers. I mean, why do people like joseph, were all even have a job in the founder lane. Uh, people like that. What do they do . Exactly, except asking us miles east washington. I mean, you know, carl, carl david worth, hes a mouthpiece for zalinski. I mean, it gets worse to get thing. Keep going, carl. Well, the, the, the whole, the whole edifice of nato exist just to come through russia. If rush, if you west and russia or china or to become friends, youre going to throw out all these natal bureaucrats, all the think tankers out of the jobs. So its, is there, there is there all self interest in order to maintain their salaries or live in standards. They must perpetuate war and they must continue to show for this more we was, this is, this is very unfortunate back, but deep, but also you, us. So we have talked about, theres a lot of hubris, you know, why do us the empire act the way they do . Well, why did dogs eat fishes . Because the 10 us sell, like you could throw its weight around because of it. Yeah, yeah. Hes used to throw his weight around without calling to resistance. Well, this time is different because russia and china is much more, is much more appear near peer competitor to the United States than anything us as in culture before. And i need to remind people, us have never really won a war against a near competitor. You know what were to, its a soviet union that did. Most of the heavy lifting us did do quite a bit in the pacific war. But then japan wasnt, appeared a competitor of the United States, and now us base thinking to fight russia and china, your co work got to. They thought you could win. But guess what, todays russia in china is not the soviet union of yes, 3 years. But they were looking at the breaks that has a large and larger economy that all the g 7 combine. This is why theres a lot of a panic also in washington. And are you working capital . Theyre trying to preserve the gym, the west, red gemini, at any cost. Theyre including waging up very terrible oxy work ukraine. Yeah, well as well also. Uh it would be a, uh uh it would be a shame if we didnt remember what happened exactly. Almost a year ago, let me think. Oh, the destruction of the north stream pipelines. Okay. Of course. No one will, i guess well never know. You know, thats, you know, one of those great mysteries of the cosmos. But the eco would carl was saying to maintain that had gemini, youre willing to damage your so called friends, go ahead and london. Well the, well, the most true to the bottom line, a terrorist thats r a is it bit, well, it was one of the greatest a commercial terrorist attacks. And the western history that we know, and i, i do believe is the germans have dignity. I mean, some germans, im sure that they are over there. And this is a teaching bong that the United States set one year ago. And it will blow into the whole collective west face in the coming months or years. And i will lay the ground, the past, lay the ground full full of the night to dismantle because go live it may i the pregnancy. Im not delete this other as it is, but we also have that many quite a bit. Oh, its a dream. It remains to be seen. It remains to be seen nice. I. I agree with your son to ment. Okay. But to have what i refer to him is Sergeant Schultz standing next to biden, you know, i mean, i mean the absolute complete full. He was, he was made out of, he made himself a fool. Okay. And, and he just stood by so i hope that there will be consequences. Karl, you know, nature always says nato is a defensive alliance. Ok, well it looks like it wants to militarize asia and going into confront, encountered china. Well, china is not gonna take that sitting down like to know that different than russia as well. Uh i, i was not aware of the north atlantic now its, its the stance to is this i was trying to see, but realistically natal that youve been with the war a proxy where you, you quitting again . Is russia . What realistically can natal do in china, in a place that sold far wrong from europe, they have to fight whats still called the tyranny of distance is just to ferry all the materials to be called to, to fight in china sprung yard essentially. And lets not forget, china is a worlds factory. China is industrial capacity dwarf, even that of the United States. And right now us just basically come prowling, its all vassals, european bass, so to cite long its war with china because us know, by itself you cannot win against china. And now your opinion leaders like bounder lane, like joseph bar out there, committed suicide for you because us is essentially cannibalizing, is allied through. Sure. Its still showing up. Its onto the pest capacity. Thats what we have seen after the bombing of north streams. All the unit, jeremy industrialists, now they have the tab for United States because they no longer have access to cheap rushing gas as well as well. I mean, i guess im glad that was brought up because i liked cannibalizing allies, and thats exactly whats going to happen. I mean, the europe is being de industrialized i, i dont see it as in much of an asset if it, it, its the industrialized poor in recession all of the time. What kind of when is that, andrew . Oh, theres a says even full, but the United States arent good. So 11 competitor potential competitive down. And we know that going back to the most true question, is that for the united say, why dont the greatest spreads for the United States . From that perspective was the close a line between German Economy and russia. So once you have you down and you know, for, for john and Companies Moving to the, you know, uh, from production to United States that the china, to any other countries you, they, they duster lies in the europe is no longer uh, from United States. I would say i would go even further the United States never proceed. You, but europe as an online, it was a us, as the corner of the, a bustle, approximate. So if youre a mazda in about, so the relationship is slightly different on the dynamic between friends. Weve never been friends and, and im the United States. I mean, the americans. No, it isnt. Your europe in europe is also no service only than the the so called charles is browse and others youve been put in place because you have to, you know, i think that before about, mentioned at this point of view of in Union Recreational c i, United States in order to unified europe on the flag and, you know, they have the confidence to be easily managed by United States. So youre, youre in union is a american construct, i would say, uh so, um, yes, i mean, you have, the union has come up with that kind of blogs and youd be the euro. You within countries of whether you will be in the country, is a key to be come on board, come, he belies, im not sure we can see the hungry. We can see both joe, we can see other countries who are slightly moving away from the race be both by the United States. I mean, also when it comes to a boston suppression of russia, all those drugs know, willing to have no participants from, from, from most coke during the, um, the, the, the, the, the meetings on of the exemption hungry. We know the hungry and stuff from the very beginning business. The many other countries grew up behind because those things the same on for us and we bought all reluctance, old cowards, the girl. What does it normally do to, to join the, the cool with, with, with, with living to all the we saw see, i wouldnt hold my breath because ponds are changing and people are the fools. But what is happening in the National Elections and people will be voting with their feet. So in order to stay in power, you have to somehow please your electric. And if youre not facing your electric, you all down and weve seen this in an easy, then weve seen this in, in numbers of the European Countries or across the west as well. So we shall see. I mean i, i wouldnt hold my breath, i wouldnt hold my breath either, but i wouldnt be, i dont think its out of the question. Considering these new conventions about this information is that some elections will just be called no one boy, nope. Nope, there was, there was outside in great interference. You know, that we, we void the selection, theyre gonna start doing that. Okay. Uh carl. And what is the major lesson is china . Do you think is drawn from this ridiculousness and ukraine, a conflict that never should have started in the 1st place . What conclusions would they draw as well . I think one conclusion is to be drawn is your us. It is a paper tiger. I mean, look at us is having trouble to supply artillery and munitions to ukraine. This were talking about country that spends nearly a trillion dollars in dfcs budget that have larger defensive budget. And next to the top 10 countries combined, yet they do not have the industrial capacity to simply produce artillery shells for ukraine. So russia is, this is not only taking on ukraine. Russia is taking of the United States and always european bass all at once and rushes whitney so that what china can take away from that is the, you know, us military is this giant load where that, you know, its not what its the hollywood crack up to be well, i mean, you know, its interesting karl, that they dont, you know, they dont want to send certain weapon systems. You know, they, theyre always hesitating. I dont, i dont think its because theyre afraid of escalation. I think theyre afraid the world can see that the most of their military hardware is junk. Okay. And its very over priced junk. Okay. Because now were going to see these abram tanks. They will burn like any other tank in ukraine. And this is something that the pentagon is very worried about because you know, our sales are very, very important, and they want to keep selling them to europe. So i think thats one of the hesitations. They have not escalation, not, not g o politics. Dollars is what concerns them gentlemen, weve run out of time on a think, my guess in raleigh and in london. And of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t. So you next time, remember across the, the, the, the membership of stainless things. Let me go up a success that i knew the what a single age will you use this room . If im for the 1st floor wash water to your family, friends or family plan, what are some of the progress dealer preceding Energy Authority to pay at the i c. Im assuming is whats difficult with tears rolling on that i was searching for a couple of minutes. Unfortunately, people give me a, its a cabinets. Ive used the stuck goodness for the mates and the way the weights the weird thing. And then the, typically the timber difficult to get through it, especially to of the thing that whether or not you are blessed as an individual one. And therefore the initial to the 1st day im offending you, the hutch of the toner, the, the menu. So on the right and then then you press, you will find one year to the store, then you press the check, but the idea would just, im going to send you a bunch with some authority and then i set to cancel it. The other way is reason you invoke and then yeah, we still send us cuz then scroll down, go to initiate the for you or mr for which items they would send it to the pony to the move. This is its just too much anymore. The less than that, what was, would go up here . Could i see with the district to me for me to monitor in the students and then the yes, the food with the negative stuff as i was cut that in the way it gives us a good way to the rotors, a dose, the facing the why wouldnt she doesnt chose to take the machine in the summer because she was still kinda watching. You find out a brand new shrub care, but i figured that with that of the and im going to stay cool with the know that was coming out and you guys come out on this bear