A family decision. And the thing is that, so when i was growing up in london in the eightys and ninetys and i was at school and university, it was a very different place to the u. K that we see now. I mean, recently weve seen the 1st minister of scotland has been elected, and hes a young british focus. Connie, weve got the mayor of london saw this fine is also a focused on the origin. And of course you have an Indian OriginPrime Minister in the u. K, now, um, 30 years ago in the ninetys we would have been hard pressed to predict that it was a very different society. And i think most of my life was actually my childhood and my student years were dominated by the statute government, a tory government, which was not known for its liberalism inside it spoke to lot of racial tensions, of racism was very old. But ending lived in those days, im very happy to say that the new a generation so much more open minded and much more aware of the races. So discriminatory marriage is the person as a much better place. I think for minorities now than it was in the ninetys. Now i think for anyone who is dreaming about the future in a foreign land, theres a green degree of idolize ation there. The bigger it is, the stronger is the disappointment later. I wonder how it was for you that, you know, cultural shock off by meeting the land that you dropped about. Yeah, so its interesting that i grew up in england, which is the destination of choice for many buckets. Stormy is, and many asians in general. And i do, i mean, im very grateful. I go up there because i got an excellent education. I think england is an amazing country in terms of d. N, a chest, the National Health service, the rule access to justice. And there is a relatively compared to the rest of europe and survey to america a more free and balanced media. So i absolutely understand that people want to acquire those things, but i would say nowadays, people should look to their own country 1st. Because if you are educated, if you have a sense of security in your country, you know, apart from those people who are, god forbid thing the press start, their lives are at stake, or theyre to so below the poverty line that they cannot even civil. And thats a different type of migration, but its a middle class people who are educated. I would say if you have a certain level of respect in your country and security and your basic needs are met. You know, the growth is always green. But when you get there, especially if you go to, lets say, the united states, you will be a 2nd or even a sub plus it isnt for many, many years. Now in one of your interviews here, described the cultural stronger to your had when you went to one party. And the impact has done in here where the only one who wasnt drinking or smoking there despite the fact that youre warrens actually a born in the country. But it was almost like a while being born in the u. K, you were less westernized than many of the people who have lived impact has done their entire life. And i think this is such an interesting point. And you also mentioned, you know, the British Society is now being increasingly so their age and i expected sized or i dont know indian eyes if i can put them that way. And i was thinking about whether one can really understand them fully inhabit their culture. That condition their speciality consciously, without having some distance from it. Because i think one of the reasons why you can see if the pakistan is the sides of the way you see is because you have, you know, so the benefit of several different perspectives to i agree. I think thats absolutely right. Having grown up in england and then coming to focused on which was an identity. Uh that was very strong to me. I was very focused on the a british book. Its funny. And then coming here and realizing that i actually focus finding identities, also in change and of course of transformation. And so the identity i thought was focused on was a few decades old because that related to an identity my parents had left behind when they moved decades of yeah. And so with immigrant communities, what happens is the own country, they leave behind a culture and base, the memories of stuck in that time. Whereas that culture lives on and transforms and modernize is so yes, i think if it was very interesting for me. And the other thing i noticed was that ultimately the so called it leads in every country are fairly westernized, whether its focused on or any other country. Because i was interacting with the sort of educated one percent elite to a very well off. And they were, majority of them were inevitably equate to westernize ation with modernization. And i think that is changing now with the, with the internet and with citizen journalism and the access to information. I think people are discovering their own history. Its allow me to screen most a Ministry Asian history and building into their own historical background rather than relying on the mainstream press, which certainly filters it is not blocking it out completely. You know, i, one of the things that i was kind of surprised and by that surprised me about here is, is one of your sad again. And one of your interviews is that what you miss the most about britain is its intellectual stimulation. And im certainly bias here and russian the just a house lab for some of the worst stipulations of ever. But when i look on british media and how predictable they are, you know, um, how home a genius the narrative is. When i look at certain reports by think town tank some, you know, seeing the buyers in the, the sort of the relationship with the fact how casual it is to put it my way again. And when i compare it, for example, uh with the pakistani discourses messes as it is, it strikes me as far more genuine and intellectually honest. So i wanted to ask you, what kind of intellectual stimulation in your you had in britain that theyve kind of get an offering impact has done. So i think, yeah, that the nation was when i was very nice, but spun um and i think things have improved a great deal in the past few years. Inbox is done with the advent of the opening up the private Media Channels at the time. We only had one or 2 and largely it was dominated by the state channels. So there wasnt as much freedom of debate. No, youre absolutely right. Focused on the media and boca Spanish Society is much more open to debating different perspectives, especially on international issues. Perhaps we dont reflect as much on our own internal issues with, with that much objectivity or mindedness, but certainly on international issues. Yes. Focus on is a very vibrant place to discuss things. And i think coming from a russian background or a chinese background. Yes, the diplomat suddenly just with different any notice but then narratives of china or even a much more balanced fashion. I do want to discuss the broader issues, but before we go there, uh, let me ask you a specifically about the uh your success as a high profile. Uh, woman, professional woman. And you said before that it was a little bit of a challenge, because with maam, if im quoting your career plane, there is a presumption that they are competent. Um though with women at least the initial presumption is that they have a pretty phase now. And you clearly have both i one day that gives you any advantages serious advantages. And this still fairly patriarchal society, like pick a son because a, you know, that i assume they, i know too many women like like yourself or have the power of both the beauty and the brain. So i think the son is, is a patriarchal society. Youre right. And in most feels that there is a male dominant structure. I think women are doing fantastic new well in some areas, but really its got to be scaled up. Yes, women from a sudden clause who are already educated pass for an education do very well and they have access to capital through that family. Well, no. So those people are obviously doing well and i know im from a middle class family. I have access to Educational Opportunities in england on marriage and i think thats where focused on is has to be a challenge, is the marriage has been eroded to such an extent, what happened to them by favoritism. And by politicize ation, all of the organizations, government organizations and entities and even in the private sector. So i do think that in that sense that has to be an overall rethink of the way society is structured because it is turning away the middle sauce. And its also in the hit between womens talents, but in terms of women striving and making, you know, goods, stripes in society. Yes, absolutely. But female pilot, spite of pilots. Uh, even uh, people, a lady whos climb mount everest, you know. Yeah, fuck is funny. Uh, women are up before front of fashion, use a tech styles, all sorts of architecture of all sorts of fields, but it is not widespread Trout Society and we do have some very real issues. For example, i was in a corporate entity, hearing karachi where i live, and i am full surely how to encounter Sexual Harassment in the workplace and insight. I have launched a case, filed a complaint against the ceo company, which is ongoing in the courts. And ive learned a great deal about the real challenges women face in the workplace even today, and that has to be rectified. Well, thats the interesting youre saying because you also spoke a lot about respecting yourself. I mean, taking yourself seriously not pompously, not the narcissistic. Lean but seriously enough to stand for it for what you believe and to develop the talents that were given to you. And as much as that seems to be a key to your own personal success i one day. And thats also something that allows any nation to grow, you know, taking yourself seriously for what you are with all your, you know, witnesses but also yes. Trying. Absolutely. I mean self belief is a trait that you cannot do without its a prerequisite of success. If you dont believe in yourself, nobody else will. And so police is about a core value that you have. I mean, its about having a set to Guiding Principles in your life and sticking by them. And believing that that roadmap for your life is the one youre going to follow with those principles where you dont abandon this principles. You can change root, you can change tactics. You can even sometimes change the destination for the principles of bad to carry you through. Youre going to use before our Prime Minister focused on and were on the phone. And, you know, he talked about that as well. And hes a great proponent of that incredible determination and self belief. And to give the vision to a country on a National Level. But also to display that in your own lifetime with his achievements. I think hes a great example of what sales please can do, is transformed you from a well floss cricket to, to a world class philanthropist to an educational list and now to a national leader. And indeed a Global Leader offering. We have to take a very short break right now, but well be back in just a few moments station, the the, the, [000 00 00;00] the welcome back to world the 1st day of the semester. We talk about this tiny Public Policy analyst and to be brought the best time measuring before the break. We started talking about the self perception of national perception. And i know that seems to returning to practice time. Youve done a lot of consulting and uh, communication work for various like just sending entities including uh, i believe, a couple of, uh, Government Agencies and uh, when our i speak to like to send to people, i tend to hear the practice that has an image problem is that indeed an image problem or is it a problem of self perception that i think is 1st, i think may be the image problem, is because of the self perception problem that i think having lived here now for over 2 decades. I feel that focus felonies are still working through the journey of developing an identity, a National Identity. There is the, you know, we talked earlier about the vibrancy and the dynamics of the media. Well, all sorts of views and narratives have a chance to, to page and come to the for, but that also has a downside in that. Everything is up for debate. Nothing is agreed on some of the most fundamentals. For instance, right now, the country is going through a massive political, economic, and constitutional crisis. Because even, you know, well interesting is can say that they would choose not to accept the Supreme Court product. Now, in any other country that would be insoluble, inviolable. You couldnt say that, so here, even those basic fundamentals are still being debated and for talent. Focus on the 75 years old. And i think the self identity is going to transform younger people are coming in at 65 percent of the population that under the age of 35. 00, then on yes. And those Decision Making seats and positions that i think of the older generate vendor and generation takes away, young people will come and that identity will become more solid when youre saying that 75 percent of the population now fairly young. I mean, for people of those age, its natural to be concerned about how they look in the, in the eyes of the outside world. Speaking of which we both participated in a conference recently organized by these learn more about Security Dialogue family and gave a very interesting presentation, analyzing various countries efforts to present the National Image uh to the world. And what i thought sounds very funny is that the practice on is continually trying to develop one seems sort of a upcoming potential. You had the companions like fiber and practice, done the rising practice on emerging factor so, so theres always some, uh, this expectation of the same thing. I mean, yeah, you dont seem to be able to stick window with one slogan in particular, why do you think that is, i mean, both the commitment to this particular theme of and developing potential, but also not being able to quite let it up. And yeah, because i think the one thing that everybody does agree on is that we havent reached out to them. So theres lots of potential, but it hasnt been maximized. It hasnt actually grown and bloomed yet. I think thats what we do all agree on. So various reasons, so thats why the theme is always emerging or coming up for about to come up or about to fully realize the reason they, they kind of agree on the same as again, wish so politically fractured new governments, come in and mediately change everything that the previous government did you know, as far as possible, i think until we reach that level of political maturity, its going to be very difficult. As i said, i do have a great deal of hope as the most people in boxes on the new generation will allow this change to happen because, you know, as they come up and they come into these Decision Making positions, they will not have the package of history and do vision that the older generation jobs. And thats why im very hopeful that. But on the other hand, i think its not only pakistan who is going through this very difficult challenge of, uh, essentially differentiation because we live in an era and the political era in most countries have to think consciously, not about just the external image, but about you know where they stand up politically, economically, home based, so forth, when they dont support what they want to be out for themselves, what, what theyre willing to give to others is and its a very, very difficult process for most countries. I interviewed people from around the world and i think everybodys pretty much going through the same process of uh, sort of a weakening of the self worth, not only on a personal level, but on, on the National Level and even the interNational Level. And i know its a big question, but the, your, a person knows a big vision so, so i want to ask you, what do you think is taking all of us as humanity of this sort of burgeoning of potential all around the world and everybody seeing themselves somewhat differently from how you know others prefer them to be the same to hey, this is one of the great revolutions of social media. It has opened up access to information, but it is also allow people to give their point of view. So when the reliance on these global news networks, which dominated the eightys and ninetys, where you didnt receive any alternative information or viewpoint, anyone else fantastic. And we are seeing a shift from a unipolar super power dominated well to this region, china, russia to the box, bonnie wrong, and the gulf states taking a key role in this feature. Now, india is obviously a strategic ally of the united states, but it has asserted its independence inside the fire policy issues and decisions. For example, in 14 oil from russia. So focused on unfortunately, hasnt been able to do that because as you know, iran, hong government was ousted to a very controversial no confidence. But last year, immediately after he visited russia and wanted to negotiate with president instead about um, enforcing quote from russia. And i think thats a classic example of where super power has used its influence to interfere with either directly or indirectly, the politics of a developing country. And, you know, its, its sad that they do that because i think those days are over. Now the public is much more aware of whats being done to them. You know, its not 1953 way you can replace elected, democratic governments never on and replace it with the shop. The car is, i mean, you know, you for your country can. Uh, you know, you, if some people are used to certain ways of doing politics, they will try it until those ways will become totally and effective. So in a way, its a natural process. You know, it was very interesting if he is because i sold the late um tony then it was a real stool. So versus politics. And he on bbc weld and he was opposite john bolton, whos a us diploma. And they were talking about something and tony been made this amazing comment. He said, you know, both are and cause the k m, the us are in decline and youve got to accept. And you know, youve been very rude on stuff from the american from john bolton, but he was an amazingly gracious person 30, but i think he was actually a really fors and pars are in decline. And throughout the street youve seen him paused decline, and others take the place and now it is the rise of asia. Its the 21st century. And these regions will we work to trade with our neighbors . We should be able to trade with russia. You know, we should be able to trade with iran, and yet we ascension, and it doesnt make any sense for us to be sanctioned by that and not to be able to trade with our neighbors. I mean, neighbors, you cant change your neighbors, you can change foreign policies, but you cant change over your neighbors. Now, we only have a couple of minutes left. Weve talked a lot about sort of this and use potential effect to send, but i want to pay homage to your roots as well. And you know, whenever i visit patterson, im always sort of uh, stricken by the legacy of your founding father. And with my mother leon, janelle, who i think was a man of this amazing call for the on the life of actually toured the goal. Uh, church cheryl gunn, the many others, even though he is much less known around the world. I think it was a, this very interesting and intricate combination. Of course, my bulletin isnt, you know, western education, fascination with certain aspects of western culture, but also in a genuine appreciation of his own boots. He was never shames of practiced on, you know, he liked it a lot, this many aspects of traditional culture. And i think this brand of sort of, and lots of conservatism is coming back, is making a come back around. And, well, my question is, do you still live in pakistan . Are you grounded enough in who you are already without a centrally closing off or the outside influence or some of them are very beneficial but also, you know, failing enough stability in your own identity to and i think thats a fantastic question. And of course mama, the legion outside as a, is the founding father focused on. And he is yes, a much under research speaker. He was an amazing person who was so intellectually strong he had conquered. You know the legal well, he was a barrister from lincolns in, in, in england, so well respected highly paid hyundai in dom on. And yet he had that ability to honor his roots and give the muslims of position via their identity, which was a separate identity. And then yeah, it comes back to what you were talking about, that self fulfillment of identity. So yes, i think we have anonymously, brilliant example in moment religion and increasingly the Younger Generation is learning more about him. Im positions like him wrong on how brought back to the floor. You know him on the phone and his speeches does quote along my bow a great deal to put to us through the east. And he talks about Self Determination and realizing your Human Potential unit flying like and showing the burden the uh rather than pulling on the flight. And i think that is something that focused on is the, you know, given the massive popularity that runs on has amongst youngsters, millions of people follow him. And i think he is really starting to be great people to say you can be proud yes. Of western education is great. Yes, its fantastic to have skills, but ultimately you have to be rooted in your identity because went out but you will slice away, you wont be incurred, its identity and principles. Im crazy. And i think one of the quotes about him i, i read the now in front of the books by his contemporary. He said the gymnast confidence in itself was incredible. But it didnt make him analysis. It turned into this very strong dedication to public service, to his lines and full acceptance of not only course you was, but whos his country, man, were and whats his control representative. So i guess im saying that to wrap up and to wish that to all of us and all the viewers around the world from wherever they are. Absolutely. I think you have to look into your own history. You have to have a sense of pride in your National Identity and a sense of pride in your leaders. If theyre giving you a vision, then you agree with that vision. You know, the wild media certainly is not the right thing to judge your country by because it is so selective and so biased. And so the agenda driven, i think the debate has to be within your own country for sure all whether your own culture or the country is that for me to have that scheduled for aj and debates, my friend has been great pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much for that time. Its been a pleasure and thank you for watching culture, sir. Again, it was a part of the, [000 00 00;00] the, [000 00 00;00] the, it started in 1983 with my father on a young man. The site met all exactly the same as a kid does when he goes out in the lake and the communities vision for panties with iran, real families and calendars for a really long time. My mom was pregnant with me still long winding. And i grew up on long line. Ive been having this issue since probably 1970 was my 1st year that i seriously pointed to the explainable biomass is near historical levels. Growth rate have dropped falling when its done and its worse form has of leveling effect. And it has a tendency to really just sort of strip away everything thats there. The wave fisheries are changing. Its the way our country is changing. Its increasingly hard for Small Businesses to make it abundant. Stocks are important. I mean, who wants to fish the last bit, the message i would leave to you is the importance of not giving up the importance of working together. And also the importance of taking care of your corner of the ocean. The the got your pumping billions of dollars into the new now to redeem just everything to, for the inflamed the conflict, to draw their states into it. The russian president turned them to western countries for igniting at war conflict in ukraine. While addressing the moscow conference on international security, also ahead bodies, ukrainian soldiers sketches all around these trenches and an exclusive report from the front line. Our t follows