A much possibility of them winning the war at toll. So its more of a bluff thing to that extent. So i dont believe personally, i dont believe the usa is good to send. Its all me to tie one know im next on on the International Actually more times they have the latest episode on the underground. All the documents, hopefully out of the night, just leaving the the option or time cn. Welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the u. A. As the global south prepares for august brick summit, tomorrow a mux, 76. He is in c, i in bricks in the one thats independence from britain. The now most populous country in the world would re gain sovereignty, but also be politicians 76 years ago today in violence that would kill wound or displace tens of millions into years come a long way since then. Now the largest economy by bbc in the top 5 along with russia, china, and the usa. But now in the years on the rise, what threats are facing adjoining me now from its capital. New jelly is one of indias most famous politicians and intellectuals, Indian National congress, m p, and former of the secretary general of the united nations. Doctor sachi through a thank you so much 1st because you for coming back on this ration. So you didnt become president of the congress policy. I thought youre going to good clinch that by the time you were next on going undergrads. I should that you just said it was a very resign doing to cease i. I have been a, since you havent been the most successful news in the history of come respond to your directions, which i suppose is, is a kind of modest consultation. What has to pack away and the at the bottom of was a lot of strong short lap and one day before we get to independence, i better just quickly ask you because the world is looking at these. Yeah. What would bidens ending . Victoria newland down to the im a a and a lot of people talking about these. Yeah, because its a source of uranium for Nuclear Weapons when Nuclear Power 25 percent going to the u. V. R as well to the former Indian Indian on voyage. And he just said as well as in his relations with these, you, eric, concerned the overall relationship is not going to be damaged by that much warranty . Plastic response then say paris or washington talking about full scale invasion then . Yes, i think it probably, i think some of those are supposed be right. That is a basic relationship with uh, with vision and indeed with most doctors and effort caps has tended to be free of its, of its own democratic credentials and convictions. As attended by lodge true to avoid the kind of sort of model arising, the western countries or nations of african countries. I do partially be causing the focus on national interest. And partially because in depths, i think has realized that sometimes different standards would need to be applied in situations in which countries have to govern themselves as best they can go to whats best they can middle of necessarily match the standards that youd like to set. The, well, well, some, some of the same revolution, thomas and the revolutionary government as more democratic credentials. Then the us, the nato backs one uh, the preceded hits. So who knows who gets a go to, to be sure exactly what that is largest . Yes, i think well have to seats as they settled down. There is also, as you know, the legend demands for wagner. Really, the most of the group to be involved in the right, no sizes are coming in all that takes the direction of the government and, and how they behave. I would also remain to be seen and weve seen what is a big c i a basic needs. Yeah, they put an offer 1000000000. 00. What into the into that area. So clearly this is the size of proxy war and i given its 76, he is independence, and the brutal partition indian wants to fight it seems to me on this geo political stage with nuclear pockets done. Its finding with new k, a china off the time, and this is while the global south, including the jab, aquino, 5, so including brazil, including the South East Asia there. Well talk about this new world. India is fighting with pockets the with china. I think you being critical with the working with the rush or i mean you one Russian Energy is a new indian is there in the indian political class, completely unaware of this new world order and its breaking out nbc made one clean that on on these measures are you saying this pricing . I think of being a little on just because lucky bosses adversarys who have in, in, in both cases, initiates its actions that have puts us in the obligation to defend ourselves. But having said that, nobody in, even though human, our investigators in these situations is contemplating anything by way of a new care engagement. So were looking at what ive been struggling with the chinese mine establishes on the frontier the one of them was us enough for us to lose 20 soldiers in one episode with the chinese, i will, buckets on the side, its not being directory, confrontation with the box on the army, but rather with militants and terrace sent across from that side. So we, we had a long reassurance of new care conflict to thats what youre concerned about. Certainly everyone with also bringing the heads wouldnt be concerned about the prospect a new k was. But its not exactly human and notarized, seems likely, has been coming in. But thats what i will say, however, is that every country has a responsibility. It doesnt cost us national security. And were not exactly living in a safe neighborhood. Weve Government Insurance on both side, 2 sides of us and we need to be a series of reality. And so to be careful. Yeah. You see even the way you said belligerence on both side. Sounds like the, the old world give me im well, india is doing lloyd austin was there in india on june, june of this year, 5 year roadmap to count. Its showing the regina thing was there to hear about us a weapon. Sales to india had combat land mobility surveillance intelligence. Munitions basically is um in the are a bit likely European Union. I mean the United States wants to buy russia through your grain and youll find china through india. And weve seen what its done to the European Union because germany is in recession, and many people are talking about your demise. India continues in this way. Is it actually a vassal states on the 75th and 6th, none of those are the, every one option is dealt with india knows i know and guess to use india to pursue any other objective of option and as interest. I dont think thats indian governments with a lot of except we use in 76 years since independence. And i can assure you that they would be absolutely no tolerance for playing anybody elses game. If the rest is selling ourselves. Thats because thats Good Business for them. And of course, it happens to coincide with some of that g o strategic objectives, unaware of buying those items, just because we need to not because been willing to pay anybody else has been the truth is that we are and the difficult situations are pretty simple. Um, suppliers itself running shorter weapon rates because of its water new crate. Oh, we have to diversify services and we went to the us content from soup. Dent is ropes and this is not surprising. Uh we also 10, im sure to other countries that used to be in this will be a little bit not might have spare parts for some of the russian ribbon. Are you still huge, obviously, that obviously the power of india and maybe in your constituency and carrier that will be saying you can spend the money more cleverly than the buying military arms. But i should also say the us state department, matthew miller, lincolns man at the, in washington said, you know, the us regularly raises Human Rights Concerns with india. Weve done that in the past with india and well do that in the future just as just as the past few weeks. This is what the United States things of india. Its a human rights violating country while simultaneously trying to make cash out of india by selling them uh, the general atomics of you avis 2000000000. 00. I think you just spent on it know to get better already shoes. And in the greenville position, policies have been raising consistently, but we dont go and asking western countries to do our work for us. We will raise issues as part of our response to rule as an opposition in democracy. And we will challenge our government. But uh, but i think by large its up to indians to solve their own problems, whether in relation to human rights or anything else, or you can nominate policy, political approaches, Foreign Policy. Visa methods are the subjects for debate within the indian context. But the reality, we are not particularly on either side of the political aisle welcoming, of foreign interference and these issues. Well, you being critical of moody things too close to russia and isnt the point here that joseph bar l, the you the believe good give the European Union foreign minister said your up is a god and the rest of the world is a jungle. I mean, its only is that your ex colonial rule is those, those countries in europe because portugal was there in the india. I mean, they, they see, and heres a cash cow. Now as its economically has risen in the past decades. And while navigating this movie is trying to navigate it and your last thing, we should be close it in washington as the congress body does under some video, simplifying my position dramatically. First of all, let me stress and reaction to that comment, said god, who was maybe more comfortable. But john, those are more interesting. So i think im going to be where, where people find that interesting challenges facing the number one. Number 2, i did not say that in this too close to russia. I fully understand that it was possible that a person, instead of a long time, i simply said that on the ukraine massa. But india had failed, especially initially to uphold principles that it is to sort of just stood by over 7 big change, including these sovereignty of states being violent, but as the borders of the Unit Investment in of visibility of use a force to Settle International disputes. So i said, since i didnt hear you say one word about that when uh, when off to the us who in care of there was shedding and killing 14000 people in east and ukraine. I didnt see you make one speech in the congress saying uh that the ukrainians were killing 14000 people in eastern ukraine. Why now are you re reciting to me, washington talking points. Olivia, you were in the us and isnt it this 2nd general one involves a Member States of the united submissions violating the sovereignty of another. The other involves a government of a recognized member stage of the un attaching a portion of what is seen internationally as its own territory. There is a difference and i think on these messages, countries like india, can you afford to surrender the principals because that surrender will and could be used against us in parts of our own country. Such as, for example, gives me insights. I, im very consistent with my approach, so we need to stand by the principles of your more is always all fails for the last 7 decades. Its nothing against russia as a, as a friend, its against russias pacific action. Its likely people can do wrong things. This was a wrong thing and we had to point to that. But i will say that india has to fight its own battles, and it has to stand up for its own security. And for each and every responsible in doing citizen what supports the governments all being that we show apology, they may be from as long as they take responsible actions to progress to project national security. We wont be critical where the governments ive seen is immune, sufficiently muscular, as we find has been the case of the china border. Well, obviously russia sees that the battle in your of is existential. And as a proportion of the population of the un general assembly, the majority of humanity didnt vote for the resolution condemning russia for it. So patients in, in ukraine and what you just said, give me those vision as well as the it month with the shanghai cooperation organization. Idea of a new security world. Does this really . I mean its, its more of the old world of game youre talking about india or is that while the rest of the global south are all talking about a new security architecture, hocking back pads due to band doing and then on line move with as well. In the, as you know, as, as in some ways been playing, its all sides. Its chad. The su, chairing the g. 20, the active and the brakes. Uh it has, it has in many ways tried to keep all the channels of communication and of good relations products. And i think thats and so where is this being a tough act to pull off, which india so far managed to do with then turns out and tagging. Nice thing. Anybody else is heading into the bridge . Somebody in south africa in the spirit, very much of a phone participation. There are important issues before reaching clearing the possibility of its expansion, which fits into what youre talking about. The emergence of new configurations. While the same time, it has actually reaffirmed its role in the g 20 during its chairmanship. So i think, i think you have to give credit to india for not presenting in a way that can less itd be type cost on one side, all the other of what youre seeing as a global device, especially for ill stop you the more from the Indian National congress and being for the Indian External Affairs minister after this break the the, the welcome back to going on the garden. Im still here with one of the news was famous politicians and intellectuals, Indian National congress and beat up to shushing through charging you were talking about the brakes in a few days time at the, at the end of the month in south africa. Um, do you think you are right to criticize breaks for platitudes, rather than action. We had to go to neil for the Goldman Sachs boss who coined the tim brake on the show. And he said, economies have to be careful about how they say dispose of dollar debts in nature nation, you know, your p and dance as, as the rise of brakes happens. You do, you dont want to see the acceleration of the dumping of data in this new bricks world order of the dollar eyes ation. Well, we dont really know how thats going to go. And i think theres been some conversation about this, but nothings changing anything remotely like a formal shape. The individual government sort of taking individual actions and i think governments are going to be guided by what they see as being their own interest makes extremely interesting. Issues going on in the, in the bridgestone text, best of all is going to be very widely attended. I gather the invitations to attend the summers on not just for the, the 5 meters and a 5 member countries, up to 67 meters across africa, left in america, asia in the caribbean. And on top of that, the 20 degrees, including the sectors of the united nations, the jeff person of the african union. And the president has a new developing bank holding invited. So well, we are looking at the much larger sources context for breaks. Business need as are going to be attending and theres going to be open discussion of something that some members have been pursuing more heavily than other than that is expensive. But adding adding new members. Now i know theres some skepticism by some theres more winning this for others, but im in order to suggest that jumps bricks is boys for the never knew from that might indeed make it more relevant rather than less. So it just, pleasant shoots. Certainly have had problems in organization like to come and roast. I love the british that helps bruce come to for to go. Thats ways has to find a certain clear relevance coming off of this this bridge. And im not sure im not sure of the brick fleet is would like it to be compared to the, to the quest, the imperial commonwealth. But i say we, we, that is huge. And thats what i reminded me of weve, weve had little on this show brazil obviously taking a big lead to be russia massively involved in this new diesel arise ation world. China very much involved south africa. There was a recent conference in st. Petersburg, talking about the close to us between the african nations away from the i m f and will banks again and again, it isnt the i, thats the india. Thats the problem here because it has problems with china. Youre talking about the fact that you should basically be condemning rusher over you grain. And im not sure what the, what you want to say about south africa and brazil is india and hope its not a bit of a problem. Yeah, this is actually a very Good Relationship with both of us, again, brazil, and indeed there is a separate organization of the 3 of them, both himself endeavors on south africa, which is actually got some of his own developing projects going on and dates, perspective countries, uh 7 days, the smallest uh, best country has both in terms of population and perhaps in terms of the size of the economy. But they were the 1st beneficiaries of expansion when britain became breaks. And i would argue that now with a group that comes to more than 40 percent of the population and about 26 percent of the Global Economy out, there is the emergence of what everyone sees as an alternative for 4 countries. Um, or to develop new diplomatic channels, which indeed all 3 of these conditional dominant western audits. And i think the, you know, weve been seeing that weve been hearing a lot of talk of the decline into increasing get a relevance or some, whats the address of a normal Line Movement breaks . Could be the nucleus or something thats, thats the, in a sense theres a successor to the bottom Line Movement, not as large. And as im really is on the line, much about perhaps capable of more focused engagement. I would say that as long as countries like brazilian india, i have the kinds of use that have and ive seen is having the, the credit ability in the clouds that have um, uh no one is going to choose brakes or just being a cash pool to russian and chinese infants about time we have to reason, see, i think the how all these things go, what comes out from these the bridge, somebodys, i think ups. Yeah. The lot of questions question. Some of the i googled your ballistics are very important, but there will be discussions on trade. There been discussions on a china is major leap on infrastructure developments and many of the british countries i think, i think were going to have to see some, some pretty solid progress coming out of this, this metering including on depression of expansion because there are 20 sweep ending up positions near bricks, images. And i think that again is something that is bound to be of some concern a to just some members in brazil has been opened to skeptical for example, of enlargement. India has been surprising that theres more welcoming and, and we know that we know that russia and china have been quite keen on seeing some new members coming in from china, i think is obviously the main driver for expansion of bridge. So i think theres, theres a lot of questions. Yeah. A lot of possible trends we love to see, i would imagine as a mobile unites brazil, i mean, lula was obviously imprisoned because of a defacto us back who he said. So in this show, we know what russia thinks of washington, we know what presented things of washington. We know what china thinks of washington and the google vessels dates of your and we know what south africa thinks you trust them, dont you . I mean, you have the congress body of india seem to trust uh, the United States and European Union countries as a, as nations that youre going to do masses of arms deals with and attempt to side with what, why is india still . If youre exaggerating that rule, it almost blazing all this and say useful element, but its by no means dominant. None of these countries is principally, for example, not from none of these countries as the principal elements and the relationship of lloyd austin was there. As i said on june, a 5 year roadmap for india for you, i mean the 0 um, from the United States coming to indian 20 way then a 20000000000. 00 that started because instead of guessing, but we believe we needed, which frankly, i would be more or more into spend several of we have a sense of why do you think itll work . Why do you think American Homes will work . Because its currently being blown to pieces in the training, but the battlefront as well as fax, thats your notes. So im going to be exactly the opposite. That is the russian ups that have not been over your grades advertisement for the weapons supplies. I, im not a ministry man, im going to stay away from that. But ive seen both both kinds of arguments and more, more to the printer does seem as it rushes ducks as a piecing with each passing day as a well with you print, making them less and less likely to be a reliable supplier. A more reverend re and most parents, i think we certainly need to diversify all sources. I want to stress that india has always tried to preserve its own sense of autonomy by maintaining good relations with all sides and to maintain the channels of communication as well as on sales, as well as great with all sides. Um, even with china, even off to china can 20 of us. So just a trade relationship is actually going up, which this may, some of us. But it also points to the fact that this is an increasing range of dependent road when it comes to trade and commerce. And no one can afford to be finishing about school and was increased risk. So all of these things i have to say to wait till youre referring to the us sanctions. I mean, penny, the United States and nato countries. Im not happy with india buying. I think more energy from russia than ever before in the past few days. So you will complete before the how they see it as breaking their sanctions, the you on so as to be trading with russia. Yes, and i would say that as far as trade with russias concerned, it isnt into is national interest. But i would argue that one might be overstating. Oh, im happy the western countries over this because, you know, russian already goes into the mix of all the windows and both of the oil which has been refined and, and then the sub list is sold to the us and the u. K. Anyway, so really ready, countries that have sanctioned russia are indirectly benefiting from russian oil. Once for 5 months its for finding in this is rose up. Do you have the effect of the india buying russian or stabilizers water prices . Because its not, it would be adding to the number of countries competing for the risk of was orders or, or in supplies. And that would drive the price is up with the pump for consumers in america, britain and, and the rest of your. So youre looking at a broad picture. I think you would genuine, you have to understand that what he is doing is not in fact isnt. Why wouldnt turn it around and say just it is in the interest of the west as well as of india. I was a restaurant of not. Yeah, that, that isnt the regularly coverage on the u. S. And European Television channels. What you just said that i lost the, you know, i was ask you about him wrong. Com. It was on this show clearly detailed washingtons role in his own withdrawal as he saw it. He. So it is a washington capitalized to, i mean, the closest to it, its india is come to washington directly affecting your region and the problems on the geo political problems of face india today. No, im quite sure. The india state hands off on the buck hassan situation. We believe is this fall apart . Kasanya used to work out amongst themselves. We all know that, whereas other countries, you can say that the state has an already in boxes on the, on the has a space. And no head of government has been able to survive so far in the 76 as an existence. It means that head of government has folded affordability. So in every case, as in design, easy coexistence between the civilian leadership and the ministry. I think the side of the time the ministry has ruled, the country directed and the rest of the time is really the country in directory by controlling who gets to be prime minister. I dont think we have a dog even the sizes expression goes. And i certainly would not have told expect any indian a pharmacy agency or individual or government lead us to interfere in the slightest way on. If i could stop in wrong, tom was the best friend of mine before he became prime minister. Im very happy to come to him as one, but uh, but as an indian, all i can do is sit back and watch and see what happens. Um, well, but as, as, as the process plays itself out in a neighboring country. I think most indians want to see a stable buck, the sun, because instability in buck stops is bonded to spill over one way or the other and talk about how that stability is insured. Who, by and was looking at the helm, is really not in our hands, nor should it be on racial simply watching rate. Well, the pocket sondra additionally, always close to china, do you think them and i needed to visit info one that the United States will use india against china over to i want i dont think india is right for being used by anybody ever. I dont think any country is so far and 76. Yes. Really said that before. But i mean, if, if the American Warships have down the which side is indeed going to be on, its just going to layoff the can watch. Its going to be involved in the indian sites with china and india as problems with china or the land border. There are no american troops in india. Youre talking about a geostrategic. If youd like just the way people in the back rose, ill suggest broad. Im looking at the big picture where we are unfortunately engaged our bibles, eyeball with the chinese is on the snow. You reset them others and its all in the lab. Then its got nothing to do with the american war search. Okay. And theyre american soldiers all around india. It has to be said how they just saw it and theres no in the saw there around india. If india continues to disobey a v, i say that kind of rules being given to your p and countries as to what to do in terms of Foreign Policy and the how to trade and who to sanction i, i dont know whether you believe by them was behind the north stream, uh, bombing at do you think, and he will never come to be threatened in the, in bigger ways than just the state department in the past few days. And you are human rights allows the i didnt need to solve completion, but i will say that it, whenever it comes to this really hard to take care of. Also, im not somebody who wants to buy from is going to threaten us at the moment. We are aware of the existing threats and ive identified a couple of them. And then we hope to diffuse that. But we are not going to be making Foreign Policy also fits, nor are we going to be making it out of ours and complacency we will keep on our toes. We will certainly protect our own security interest and we will ensure that our strategic autonomy, which weve generously safe, got into 76 is, is not diagnosed by any of our Foreign Policy decisions. I think thats a offense summary over at both the government and the opposition would stand on this line of question dr. Strategy through abbey india today. Thank you. Well, ill day is tomorrow, the 15th of august option, but thank you very much in advance. So thats our independence day. Thank you. Thats over the show will be back with a brand new episode on saturday, but until then you can give it to us. Why will i social media if its not sensitive in your country and add to our channel going on . The ground tv on rumbled up, come to watch new and old episodes of going undergrad. So you dont set the the, [000 00 00;00] the data needs often washes bancwest on public claims, at least a 1000 lives when leaving over 50 inches long as pertains to trying to stop the latest pulling up the co, ron and suite at the top consol. So that we actually have some kind of, most ortiz, who allowed to other messages, public data storage. And most of them pony these as government favorites, open to dialogue with echo was at 6 to con, escalating pensions in the region. We heard from the head of a mediation group,