A pleasure to be in this program. Make sure you have a very interesting take on the current intentions between russia in the west, which ultimately comes down to the sides. Deep seated perception of themselves and the nature of reality, which you summarize as the u. S. As in systems on being the 1st among its most and rushes claim on being and they quote, among 1st, do you think such a class of self images could be results this fully . Well i, i, i cool rate where it can be, but of course it is problematic given the how deep these cultural difference is given how deep with the psychological difference is ultimately in terms of the collective psychology, off of the leadership of the 2 sides. Right. Indeed, so this, this is the idea of came to me appropriate as a result of my key chain for a number of years at a to religious institutions ultimately raised the smaller universities here in edmonton, both of which are protestant foundations as a beginning. Uh and uh this, uh, this is something that they may make me made me look, look into into, uh, the so really just origins of, uh, political culture of the west end of the United States of america in particular. And then of course, my older research as a historian had to do with the cultural history of the us, the uh, on the russian side. Right. And specifically, the goal. So his to go to the russian, all the wars. So was there, id be that a lot of attention to the now, once again, the, the cultural practices of jamal example diplomacy is the perception. So the representation, we will definitely can discuss all of those differences. And i think your main point is that both russia and america are exceptionally distinct in how they evolve historically and economically and socially. And before we go into that, i, i wonder if you can see any similarity in how these 2 big nations to break powers go about manifesting themselves into a world. Well, you see story, etc bought by the whole. Those who look for differences for particularly are useful, unique qualities of historical entity is right the opposite as of control and each other. It is probably the task of the political scientist and the social logistics to, to focus on re send addresses on the universal. 2 reproducible trans, right . But once again, i was a whole re emphasize this, this, this, this difference. And yes, you know, as much as the way i periods when the 2 sides treated each other on more or less equal terms, my argument would be that these were rather exceptional in the, in the long history of their relations. Letting me see something thats more of the exception. Exceptional because uh, its 1st and foremost associated with the american exceptionalism. Maam, you are getting the United States. It is exceptional in 2 major ways. Its joe were fee or rather geography granted security and being buffering by 2. 00 oceans. And 2 wicker and neighbors is exceptional ability to strike with impunity to you without the steering. I mean retribution which essentially allow the americans to wage the wars over the last couple of decades and perhaps even longer. Now, do you think russia is exceptional enough as an adversary to my palm is intended to provide an exception to the typical ways of american exceptionalism . Well, i would say that its exceptional and his desire, historically, his desire to be equal along the 1st, which was the prospect of its long efforts to join the european concert and the rpm balance of power of the European Club of great powers. And also the fact that he was part of that club for about a century and a house, what perhaps 2 centuries. And then in succession, that is, is also a reflection of the fact that hes pretty much, the only remaining great power of this kind. Are now in europe or, or, and dest, even in the brother world, right . They, they transferred, you want the sale of russia. Is that this club of european great powers of which you wanted to be part of for such a long time. Hes no longer there. Why dont interesting observation youre making that russia is perhaps the only, as you said, power thats sort of appears through these uh, perception of um, being impervious on the part of the americans. And if we hear, if you listen to them or the speech of american, the policy makers, they say that, you know, theyre still the strongest nation in the world that nothing threatens them. But do you think the americans in the field as sick you are now, as they profess it to be it, as well as certainly not, i mean one, hist understands that until the end of the 2nd world war, right. Uh, the was no feasible prospect to say any major attack of the continental techy, of the United States. Right. And in that sense of the 1st century in the house of american history, a pause in the exception of the sick your conditions, right . So that explains so much in the transformation of the United States of america, inter s and major power of a global power of power that was actually seberio, right . And its in its capacity is to any of the european great powers of the previous period. Right . And then of course comes, they have the cold war, which as i would argue for a very long time was deal and a symmetrical confrontation given still is a great discrepancy. The in the resources of the 2 sites, as well as in the level of security that they enjoy. But still, i would say that the most significant achievement doesnt with of this over to you. And yet it was still a close that gap in terms of the, again, the relative security that the 2 sides enjoy. And in that sense, of course, uh, i would say that the soviet unions compromised show would save them better than security uh to the point of leading a lasting impression on of them. Again, the approach to Foreign Policy on their collective cycle is, you own the perception of russia even today, but, you know, makes our, ive spoken to many are storing slightly and many of them point out that during the cold war, uh, i mean, one distinct feature of the cold war was decided that both the United States and russia engage an approximate counseling day maam, uh for that to intervene directly in the neighborhood of each other when they own the exception of the cuban missile crisis. But it was also sparked by, you know, the trick case, the case, and the a man on the margin that the United States move to change that approach recently by pushing ever closer to russian borders and by militarize and ukraine. Do you agree with this piece . Is what do you think, prompted this change of tactics on the american side and, you know, essentially picking up a bottle with, with russian directly almost directly through ukraine. Oh yeah, so, but uh, 1st of all i was actually question of the, the magnitude of that change because as you kind of mentioned the goal more or less above all, a conflict. Its kind of the right. But as a proxy wars, the gym of the 2. So the bowers that were taking place in africa, south east asia, other places. Right. But we should never turned into the actual war. And i think this is part of the broad of trends that we see since the 2nd world war in terms of this transition and they agree 0. Busy no, no peace, no more, right . Uh, and that is a clear distinction, that a decent rule that was once again, the characteristics of me, your appeal system of International Relations, simply aidens in might in the century. Right . Its, its, its disappearing gradually. Right . And we are again, in this, increasingly in the, these grades all what, what makes the cutting call fig. Different of course uses geography. Right . Its no longer goal light. Its no longer get now its no longer cuba, it is in india grade, right . Uh, and this is something that makes this conflict different, including in terms of how real im free are the 2 sides to disengage right now. All weve discussed before in this self assurance aptitude that the United States historically had about it security. I think the russell couldnt have been more different. You argue in your article that russian from never been privileged by an abiding sense of security quite on the country, has been chronically and secure. Oh, hasnt shaved its own um national and political psychology and oh well i think that in the years of the cold war thats ultimately resulted in is that the rather solid, i would say, approach of the solvent industry strategists as a consistent in challenging the security of the opponent rather than trying to secure it, sold absolute security, which i think is, is absolutely on. Attainable is an illusion. Ultimate, you see. And anyone who is the only swat for rush or the soviet union or the thing its unintelligible for the United States as well. I think that ultimately its on attainable for, for, for any, any power in todays world. And the reason for that is well known to a specialist on strategy is much cheaper. It technically is that to Device Security usually that pulled them to uh, secure, uh, absolute uh, you know, uh, comfort for your folks for you, for yourself as the way right to, to make sure that the reason. Busy all possible attack on your territory, right . And thats all to be something that let in the context of the cold war. 2, thats a famous or in famous adultery and abuse you to assure destruction whereby the security of the 2 sides was kind of partially a jeep through some, some kind of equity embry. Im of tara, im right speaking thats also an attempt on the part of russian to take that concept of the balance of power and the that is on which the european concert was promised further or brought in broader and applied to the americans as well. Why did you think that americans played along with it for some time and now seemed to be refusing to do so . Yes, yes. So, you know, thats, thats why i may say thats a mad on which the issue of destruction was a kind of a recreational reproduction of, of the principles and approaches the Foreign Policy that characterize the european concert. And in that sense, you know, as much as russia and the soviet union, were trying to continue that approach and International Relations and they have success. But its important to him members of this, this concept. And so the, the overall um interaction between the United States and the soviet union in, in terms of data. And in terms. Busy of the, you know, they said he obviously invitation talks of antibodies thickness style 3 to of the, already like, and some of these then was i would argue or other exceptional periods, right . Of data to use. Uh, you know, the context of the cold war from which ultimately they know the space of the, you know, diverged or a bar to it, but by the late 19 seventies. Right. So i would once again emphasize the exceptionality of these parity based approach. Uh, end of the day, no security at the end of that polls ultimately means that the rational, any other power has to make extra efforts do you know, bring it about without speaking about exceptions. Theres absolutely no exception to the rule that we have. Take a break in the middle of our conversation, so stay tuned to well be back in just a few moments. The what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its crazy from foundation. Let it be an arms race is on all sides. Very dramatic, the only personally, im going to resist, i dont see how that strategy will be successful, very critical of time. Time to sit down and talk the welcome back to ones a par smith and fix our talk case with teachers as come coordinator, university of edmonton. Now victor, uh you have another fascinating um view onto this conflict uh which i havent seen many specialist voice. Um essentially its an argument that this illusion of the american self perception as a sort of the, the. A presentation of, of god on this, one of has been uh, in fact, a combination of not only geography but also its, um, its a really just thinking particularly be the influence of the calvinist ideas of dividing people into and perhaps nations as well into the elect was the uh, what was the trend for the rep for a regular rate . Um yes. Do you see playing out then the current politics as well . Oh, well, you know, in the general sense, yes. Uh, well, 1st of all, let you save that. Of course, United States is the only country who was politically thought of themselves along those terms. And indeed welcome 5 seamless themes in the history of britain, the from so russia, right . But when you look, for example, as the russian version of this nation, especially, i can special relation to god right that we find the bubble. They can the 17th century, right indefinitely, bears of the influence of the bees and sign a political culture in which exceptionalities was confirmed, as well by exceptionally great challenges, hardships, sufferings that the nation went through because of course, got lost. The, you know, got, make, suffer. Those forms your loss, but uh victor, i, i may be wrong care, but i think at least in the, in the russian conception of this idea that it does not presume that you know, this exceptionality denies everybody else that exceptionality there is no sort of aspiration to be uh, you know, the only arbiter of, uh, of the world affairs. Yeah. Well thats because in addition to heading, thats kind of busy on time legacy. Once again that we wait, we could see in the southern century, irrational was of the same time geographically objectively at the referral power of the restoral nation, which very early on on the level of its political elites recognized. Its very for all the situation and began to make efforts to overcome it. Right. So as a result of these re, leahs exception is this really, really just president ial is became diluted with a very shells the attitudes of disciples of europe and all the more advanced technological advance nations. Actually, i think the basic testing by reality, becca, and because you make an argument that the every major european power also aspire to be a gentleman, but its in the morning. Uh, emissions. Uh huh. O. O. Weve gotten some push back from the neighbors. Thats just a, you know, essentially a benefit sort of say all 5 really in a european environment. Absolutely. Well, that was the case of spain, the suffered major defeating the somebody says you, that was the case of from the some of the number of defeats of agents that are already night in the center of the board and being a major was right. And that was even the case of re written in the right. Thats why the global power for a long time. But then of course, can the multiple to the conclusion of the 2nd world here was very dramatic. Couldnt kind of declassified and termed, into a medium sized country, right. So a europe, young nations ultimately experienced that transformation with a, with a exception, that is, was kind of defeated by the card. Reality is right. Or at least confronted with them in the, in a very significant way. And, uh, you know, the space a more or less, more or less the only exception to the general tendency. And then of course, has to deal with the fact that the geographical situation of the United States is funding it. Is that of an island that is the size of the continents. Right. And thats something thats uh makes them so secure. I wonder if it also manifesto solved domestic lean because if you look into all day and resend it, president ial campaigns, youll always get some variation on the shoulder. A clinton was deplorable as common. You know, i think donald trump talk about it talked about humans. Campbell asked by and also made some disparaging remarks about a sizable part of the population. Do you think this sort of the division of the people of nations into the elect and the referent. Res also manifesto itself and domestically perhaps in the current fuller ization in the United States of this us. Yes, certainly liberal progressive in can be seen as yet another kind of secular manifestation of off off of that kind of approach. Right . Because we have to understand that it is fewer pre stein for those religious consciousness of radical calvinists was present the bubble in the 17th century in the time of the creation of the said, you call and his. But it seems that it has become secularized for sure. Already, by the time of the american born independence, we can see significant secularization of that of that, of the trends the term since were kind of, um, youll have your success, right. The, the seems to be kind of confirmed by the actual developments. And again, as a reflection above all, the exceptionally comfortable geographical situation of the bible. Now, what can i think . I understand why the americans wouldnt be so infatuated without on orange and math, but uh, i think many countries a password a similar missed but again, claiming that the, your own missed supersedes all others. Isnt that ultimately as well wishing is it may appear . Isnt that ultimately an attempt to deny all alternate, all of the nations to manifest their own destiny . Because i mean, in personal psychology, we accept that each one of us is unique. Im have us, hes or her own unique way, but the, essentially what the american political doctrine uh try it tries to put forth. Is that no, we know the right way for everybody else. Well, others . Yes. Yes, of course. I mean, one of the qualities that distinguishes human beings is the ability to recognize usually other side, just the same human beings as yourself, right . And you know, that sense if we apply of the psychological categories to the level of political leads of different countries. Again, the exceptional geographic institution of United States, as the exceptionally positive economic and demographic and social development of these country. A for the, you know, old and i can send, theres a century, theres not a, a made it difficult wed say for the american leaders to recheck. Advise in the leaders of all the countries um that the equals, as it were, right . Because a once again, the situation has been concerns and the circumstances in which the europe young leaders, in particular, historically where acting west sol, so many assess the difference from zillow. So from the United States, now i dont know if you would agree with that, but i think this very concept of the end of history could only be born on the american soil and us present. It shows it as it may be. It reminds me on that 1000 moment, you know, just the beautiful moment and essentially into just the flow of history and revenge others from leaving the old version of what the americans have believe through. I mean, uh that sounds uh so impossible to even consider. And yes, for some reason the americans seem to be fully developed a to do you think thats an authentic belief or isnt ultimately a deliberate calculation to use the rest of the world as their resource base. Do you think the american can stand on that onto faith without the you know, using the, the rest of the world as a supporting base . Well, well, certainly much of that Success Story was as a product of flaws. Is there any advantages uh, economic uh, strategic relations and we need a space where with, with other countries, right . But at the same time, i think that we have to take culture and political culture and predictability seriously. Right . Because i do things that here we are dealing with things with psychological reality is that definitely determine or this condition of the choices, the for them, political choices, including the kind of crisis. Now, as you mentioned in your past day in the United States, unlike the United States, europe has never been insulated from the interested conflict. And it gave rise to this very specific diplomatic and political culture which we have already discussed. The european concerns based on the idea of the balance of power balance of interest, as a way to peacefully core exist then ensure and logical most of what you want. If you argue that this way or from diplomacy, this way of 5 or existing was destroyed during the 1st uh or 2 world wars, do you think theres any chance of recreating and as a way to where the 3rd world war perhaps as a result of this well, i think that hes everybodys whole, but should be everybodys hope that there is such a possibility. It right. And indeed an ideal situation would be Something Like the re emergence of these european call search of bigger players on the, on an international scale. Right . So old does the, including not on the United States and russia, but that also china, india, brazil. And so perhaps other other, other brick got nations. Right. Of course there is, there is one problem. So well say with this uh, great power and quality concept that was kind of domestic off of the european call search of the night century. And that was the sides of thats of the great bowers sometimes treated the rather kind of a d, l e in those nations that are smaller than that. Right . So one has to be have to reinvent these, call these idea of a global concert off of bowers in ways that would be accommodating lee, aspirations and interests of the smaller regional nations now are altering. Now one of your article say, you mentioned that the United States or the americans always got surprised when all the nations and all the western in the, in the mentality gets sort of westernized or get a, a developmental boost without becoming lagging down or rather down becoming subservient to them, and that applies not only to russian, but also to try k to china. And perhaps the many other countries facing is just the russians who get a fine piece of with the american version of the world as a lead, only by them. No, i think thats a rush, right . You shouldnt need the 1st im on west the nation to on the go west and use ation without losing its uh, jumping eagle solar energy as well. Right . A bunch of a say some of the only one, right . Because lumpkin bro, replace, uh awesome. And then by then turkey in the same category, walton plays japan until the 2nd world war into this category was chinese to be a little bit different, different because of course, that was of all of the century off of almost like, well that colonial situation in which in which china, china was right in the late ninetys, an early 20th century. But definitely we, i didnt hear with the fundamentally similar entities, right. That are distinguished, not only by the ministry importers, by the economic size, but also by sitting in psychology, collecting psychology of the lead. So thats 6 to integrate certain measured amounts of west and his ation, west and east lenses waves the jeopardy to go sovereignty. Wanted also place perhaps you around the same category. There is likewise, a country that has a long you through with a zation. But that also, and a western attitudes you mentioned in your article and very diplomatic. Linda, this historic lack of experience of weighing or negotiating your own interest against the interest of others. Maybe some was problematic for the world today. And do you think that americans would be disabused of this kind of entitlement . And if so, how . Well uh, i think thats a, we have somebody some, some examples of, of, of that in the past. And i mentions of the dates out of the late night and 6 isnt early 19 seventys when the significance of foreign political defeats brought in all about for a whole bunch of these, this pin valence of essentially european style diplomatic culture embodied by henry kissinger, writes, is it residential advisor to Richard Nixon in the later basic role play spaces by the way, on the european concert as well. Absolutely. On the european diplomacy of the time of the piano congress, the high portions of the european, the all search, right. Because of the great bowers rights off of the european teams was this in the data and, and, you know, the american aspects of the data and off of mistake of well and im denial, right . So of course, it is not excluded in principle, but of course it will be a very long process that will require a lot of effort on the part of a once again, those are those countries that we mentioned, right . So that this combine a certain degree of wisdom, ization with the attachments to an independent adjuster. This going all nature has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you very much for that. Thank you. And its been a pleasure for me to thank you. Thank you for watching coproducer again. What was the part, the, the, the, [000 00 00;00] the, [000 00 00;00] the, [000 00 00;00] the hello and welcome across stuck where all the things are considered on people of elk, the west liberal leads continued to be afflicted by trimmed arrangements and from the very thought of trump returning to the white house as it goes the sense of
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